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Help with a rogue...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
deneb
Aug 15, 2009 12:03:40 Hello all, I am currently working on building a rogue for my party and would like some help. Im trying to up my combat abilitys without sacrificing my skills.

The DM said that I can take the Dark template (tome of magic) in the place of a level if i would like. So i figure ill be taking that about level 3 or so.

Any advice?

Pretty much all Wotc 3.5 *BOOKS* are allowed as well as pathfinder beta.

Race: Human
current stats
12 str
17 dex
12 con
12 int
10 wis
12 cha

My feats so far
TWF and weapon finesse.

expected build

Feats
TWF HU
Weapon finess 1st
Roguetrick Speedsneak
Darkstalker 3rd
Roguetrick minor mag - no-light
??? 6th
Roguetrick Major mag - reduce?
RogueTrick bleading strike
ITWF 9th
GreaterRT dispelling strike
??? 12th
GreaterRT Opertunist

GTWF 15th
??? 18th
#2
felgoroth
Aug 15, 2009 13:25:42 I don't know if this would help at all but possibly taking some levels in Scout might help, they don't get the social skills of a rogue but they have higher hit points and the same amount of skill points, also the Exemplar prestige class has access to all skills and gets 8+INT skill points you just have to blow a feat on skill focus(any) but you could either take a flaw for that or use your human feat maybe... If you don't mind a few less skill points you could also take your 1st level in Swashbuckler and get Weapon Finesse for free then have another feat freed up for whatever
#3
wildfire393
Aug 15, 2009 18:05:40 Finesse cannot be taken at 1 due to it having a requirement of BAB 1.

Not familiar with the Roguetricks, so no comment there.

I'd suggest taking two levels of Swordsage at some point. This gives you 2d6 Sneak Attack from Assassin's Stance, a handful of useful maneuvers, Wis to AC if you want it (can't hurt to have it), and access to the Shadow Blade feat which gives the very important Dex to Damage (I'd suggest switching Str and Wisdom in this case).
#4
felgoroth
Aug 15, 2009 19:27:12 No one cares about swordsages when they want skills and their 2d6 sneak attack can't be obtained til 5th level. Sure Wis to AC is helpful but he wants skills and swordsages only get a few and at that they only get 4+int
#5
wildfire393
Aug 16, 2009 1:55:46 Swordsages get 6+Int, not 4+Int. They also get quite a few skills including Jump, Tumble, Concentrate, Sense Motive, etc as these are preferred skills of some of the schools.

Alternately to taking the level(s) of Swordsage you can simply take 2 feats (or one if a DM rules that you can equip the Shadow Hands equipment to gain a Maneuver to qualify for a stance, then unequip them after) for Assassin's Stance and then another for Shadow Blade.
#6
deoxhydroxinate
Aug 16, 2009 2:26:17 Craven from Champions of Ruin is delicious.
#7
meatzombie
Aug 16, 2009 5:47:19 I agree with taking Craven, also, i think its called penetrating strike? from dungeonscape is amazing.

Other than that
Rogue 1(Craven, Penetrating strike)/Barbarian 1 (Lion totem)/Scout 3 with the Swift ambusher feat out of complete scoundrel is REDICULOUS, charge and make full attack with Improved two wpn fighting, at lvl 20 thats 5 attacks at 1d4(assuming dagger) +str+15d6, while raging(with 12 str) that means average of 70 dmg per attack to a flat footed opponent for a grand total of 350 avg. damage.......happy killing! (that was just off the top of my head...)
#8
wildfire393
Aug 16, 2009 15:44:36 Penetrating Strike is an Alternate Class feature over Trapfinding that allows you to Sneak Attack anything that is normally immune for half as many sneak attack dice.

Also rather than take the level of Lion Totem Barbarian, I'd take a level of Swordsage to pick up Dex to damage from Shadow Blade so you can ignore strength entirely. There's a ton of items that let you make a full-round attack after moving, including a pair of spiked gauntlets that let you do it all the time, and some maneuvers can help too. Scout 3 / Swordsage 2 / Rogue 15 can do damage per attack as follows: 1d4 (dagger) + 20 (craven) + 8d6 (sneak attack from level 15 rogue) + 5d6 (skirmish from level 18 equivalent scout) + 2d6 (assassin's stance) + 20 (craven) + 12 (Dex to damage given a 18 starting dex, +5 intrinsic, +5 from levels, +6 from an item for a total of 34). Being a Lesser Drow and taking a level of Fighter over a level of rogue given the Drow Fighter substitution (dex to damage as a competence bonus against flat-footed opponents, stacks with Shadow Blade because it's competence) and the UA Sneak Attack Fighter variant (so you don't lose any SA damage) plus the +2 Dex a lesser drow gets gives you an extra 14 damage. This means, given 10 Str and no enhancement on the Dagger against a flat-footed opponent you do
1d4 + 15d6 + 46 for an average of 101 damage an attack (62-140). For up to 6 attacks with GTWF, 7 with haste, 8 if you take Snap Kick (though this is probably getting too feat intensive, and that Snap Kick would do slightly less). And you still get Strength to all this damage as well. For extra cheese, have one of the Swordsage Maneuvers you take be Dancing Mongoose (+1 Attack with both hands in your full round action at full BAB) and you get downright sick.
#9
felgoroth
Aug 16, 2009 16:51:27
Swordsages get 6+Int, not 4+Int. They also get quite a few skills including Jump, Tumble, Concentrate, Sense Motive, etc as these are preferred skills of some of the schools.

Alternately to taking the level(s) of Swordsage you can simply take 2 feats (or one if a DM rules that you can equip the Shadow Hands equipment to gain a Maneuver to qualify for a stance, then unequip them after) for Assassin's Stance and then another for Shadow Blade.

Sorry I thought it was 4. But anyway he clearly can't take Swordsage because everyone else will start crap and tell him not to because spell casters are much better and they'll just keep rambling on and his question will have never been answered.
#10
Oni-Tekki-Maru
Aug 16, 2009 18:26:49 I recommend the Invisible Blade from Complete Warrior. It's prereqs have been errata'd and they're easy to get. It's 5 levels of Fighter BAB, same sneak attack progression (I think), and some nifty defensive and offensive abilities. Plus, being able to sneak attack without haveing to flank is nice as well. (Improved Feint)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 deneb Aug 15, 2009 12:03:40	Hello all, I am currently working on building a rogue for my party and would like some help. Im trying to up my combat abilitys without sacrificing my skills. The DM said that I can take the Dark template (tome of magic) in the place of a level if i would like. So i figure ill be taking that about level 3 or so. Any advice? Pretty much all Wotc 3.5 BOOKS are allowed as well as pathfinder beta. Race: Human current stats 12 str 17 dex 12 con 12 int 10 wis 12 cha My feats so far TWF and weapon finesse. expected build Feats TWF HU Weapon finess 1st Roguetrick Speedsneak Darkstalker 3rd Roguetrick minor mag - no-light ??? 6th Roguetrick Major mag - reduce? RogueTrick bleading strike ITWF 9th GreaterRT dispelling strike ??? 12th GreaterRT Opertunist GTWF 15th ??? 18th
#2 felgoroth Aug 15, 2009 13:25:42	I don't know if this would help at all but possibly taking some levels in Scout might help, they don't get the social skills of a rogue but they have higher hit points and the same amount of skill points, also the Exemplar prestige class has access to all skills and gets 8+INT skill points you just have to blow a feat on skill focus(any) but you could either take a flaw for that or use your human feat maybe... If you don't mind a few less skill points you could also take your 1st level in Swashbuckler and get Weapon Finesse for free then have another feat freed up for whatever
#3 wildfire393 Aug 15, 2009 18:05:40	Finesse cannot be taken at 1 due to it having a requirement of BAB 1. Not familiar with the Roguetricks, so no comment there. I'd suggest taking two levels of Swordsage at some point. This gives you 2d6 Sneak Attack from Assassin's Stance, a handful of useful maneuvers, Wis to AC if you want it (can't hurt to have it), and access to the Shadow Blade feat which gives the very important Dex to Damage (I'd suggest switching Str and Wisdom in this case).
#4 felgoroth Aug 15, 2009 19:27:12	No one cares about swordsages when they want skills and their 2d6 sneak attack can't be obtained til 5th level. Sure Wis to AC is helpful but he wants skills and swordsages only get a few and at that they only get 4+int
#5 wildfire393 Aug 16, 2009 1:55:46	Swordsages get 6+Int, not 4+Int. They also get quite a few skills including Jump, Tumble, Concentrate, Sense Motive, etc as these are preferred skills of some of the schools. Alternately to taking the level(s) of Swordsage you can simply take 2 feats (or one if a DM rules that you can equip the Shadow Hands equipment to gain a Maneuver to qualify for a stance, then unequip them after) for Assassin's Stance and then another for Shadow Blade.
#6 deoxhydroxinate Aug 16, 2009 2:26:17	Craven from Champions of Ruin is delicious.
#7 meatzombie Aug 16, 2009 5:47:19	I agree with taking Craven, also, i think its called penetrating strike? from dungeonscape is amazing. Other than that Rogue 1(Craven, Penetrating strike)/Barbarian 1 (Lion totem)/Scout 3 with the Swift ambusher feat out of complete scoundrel is REDICULOUS, charge and make full attack with Improved two wpn fighting, at lvl 20 thats 5 attacks at 1d4(assuming dagger) +str+15d6, while raging(with 12 str) that means average of 70 dmg per attack to a flat footed opponent for a grand total of 350 avg. damage.......happy killing! (that was just off the top of my head...)
#8 wildfire393 Aug 16, 2009 15:44:36	Penetrating Strike is an Alternate Class feature over Trapfinding that allows you to Sneak Attack anything that is normally immune for half as many sneak attack dice. Also rather than take the level of Lion Totem Barbarian, I'd take a level of Swordsage to pick up Dex to damage from Shadow Blade so you can ignore strength entirely. There's a ton of items that let you make a full-round attack after moving, including a pair of spiked gauntlets that let you do it all the time, and some maneuvers can help too. Scout 3 / Swordsage 2 / Rogue 15 can do damage per attack as follows: 1d4 (dagger) + 20 (craven) + 8d6 (sneak attack from level 15 rogue) + 5d6 (skirmish from level 18 equivalent scout) + 2d6 (assassin's stance) + 20 (craven) + 12 (Dex to damage given a 18 starting dex, +5 intrinsic, +5 from levels, +6 from an item for a total of 34). Being a Lesser Drow and taking a level of Fighter over a level of rogue given the Drow Fighter substitution (dex to damage as a competence bonus against flat-footed opponents, stacks with Shadow Blade because it's competence) and the UA Sneak Attack Fighter variant (so you don't lose any SA damage) plus the +2 Dex a lesser drow gets gives you an extra 14 damage. This means, given 10 Str and no enhancement on the Dagger against a flat-footed opponent you do 1d4 + 15d6 + 46 for an average of 101 damage an attack (62-140). For up to 6 attacks with GTWF, 7 with haste, 8 if you take Snap Kick (though this is probably getting too feat intensive, and that Snap Kick would do slightly less). And you still get Strength to all this damage as well. For extra cheese, have one of the Swordsage Maneuvers you take be Dancing Mongoose (+1 Attack with both hands in your full round action at full BAB) and you get downright sick.
#9 felgoroth Aug 16, 2009 16:51:27	Swordsages get 6+Int, not 4+Int. They also get quite a few skills including Jump, Tumble, Concentrate, Sense Motive, etc as these are preferred skills of some of the schools. Alternately to taking the level(s) of Swordsage you can simply take 2 feats (or one if a DM rules that you can equip the Shadow Hands equipment to gain a Maneuver to qualify for a stance, then unequip them after) for Assassin's Stance and then another for Shadow Blade. Sorry I thought it was 4. But anyway he clearly can't take Swordsage because everyone else will start crap and tell him not to because spell casters are much better and they'll just keep rambling on and his question will have never been answered.
#10 Oni-Tekki-Maru Aug 16, 2009 18:26:49	I recommend the Invisible Blade from Complete Warrior. It's prereqs have been errata'd and they're easy to get. It's 5 levels of Fighter BAB, same sneak attack progression (I think), and some nifty defensive and offensive abilities. Plus, being able to sneak attack without haveing to flank is nice as well. (Improved Feint)