Stupid Orcs!
So I am going to build a brand new character starting at lvl 4.
I saw this linkand fell in love with the idea.
A Rogue who as levels of Cleric which enhance his breaking and entering skills.
So I was all ready to draw up a toon based on this build when I saw someone mention a Shadow Template.
Omg! I thought I have to marry the two together!
But I need some help.
So here is what I got.
A Human with Shadow Template LA +2 LA
1 lvl of Rogue
1 lvl of Cleric with Trickery and Knowledge domains
Now the DMG states I can only start with 5400gp
Now I have to have a Hat of Disquise (Traveling with a band of orcs) 1800gp
I was told that if you craft your own magic items you only pay half. This is something I have nevered tried before.
So I have two questions first, can anyone help me optimize this build for a non melee sneaky roguish type guy, and second with the current build can I craft my own magic items to make my gp go further?
Here are the stats I am starting with
str 8 dex 15 con 10 int 15 wis 15 cha 10 these can be moved around
Oh I am limited on the books I can use.
Manual of the planes 3.5 dmg and players, BoED, BoVD, Dieties and Demi's, and Equipmenet Handbooky
Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions
Save yourself the multi-caster problems and just go divine trickster. Spend any remaining levels on Cleric PrC's that give bonus domains.
Or alternatively, focus on luck type stuff and go...
Rogue 3/Cleric 2/Fortune's Friend 5/Divine Trickster 10
The above only has 7th level cleric spells, unfortunately, but you have something like 8 or 9 re-rolls a day if you take luck domain and the right luck feats. If you can work in Pride as well, you're re-rolling on any natural 1 on a save as well (unlimited).
A feat like:
Divine Infiltrator
Prereqs: Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding, Able to cast 1st level divine spells, turn undead
Special: Your cleric and rogue levels stack to determine your sneak attack damage and your cleric casting level.
should be fine.
Human Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric 19.
For domains: Trickery, Magic and Knowledge -- a given for cloistered clerics.
This let's you use wizard wands and magic items as a wizard of your cleric level. Trickery gives you sneaky stuff for your cloistered cleric. Cloistered cleric gives you lots of skill points.
There you go, a sneaky cleric type with sneakry.
My problem is I am very limited to the sources that I can use.
This DM hates all of the extra splat books, and even dragon mag stuff.
He feels that most of it hasn't been tested properly and doesnt allow it.
So Tome of blood, and the dark template is not allowed. Divine trickster wouldnt be a option either.
Might have to work with what I got.
Any other suggestions?
thanks again
And as I'm sure you see from the suggestions here, most people are of the opinion that if you're taking caster levels, nothing is better than more caster levels. And if you're not taking caster levels, you should be. :P
Rogue/druid is also a bit better in core, actually, just because druids get more skill points and a better skill list, and you can Wildshape into innocuous animals to help hide (smaller ones get big bonuses to the Hide skill from size, also, and some get racial bonuses I'm sure). Scent helps finding people, also.
And that build you linked to is pretty terrible...
Rogue 1/ Druid 17/ Shadowdancer 2....
gain the best of everything ;)
:D
It seems pretty good for a sneaky character
It gives you something better than hide in plain sight, and fast healing, but pretty much everything else is either useless or redundent with a rogue/cleric. Actually, now that I've read that sentence out loud, even those two things are redundant as a rogue cleric.
Go through the list of what the template gives you...rogue cleric will have a spell or granted power for each and every one of them that matches or beats it. It's not worth the loss, even with xp buyback.
Out of curiosity why dont you guys like the shadow template???
It seems pretty good for a sneaky character
provided you are using this Shadow Creature Template:
Shadow Creature(shadowy distorted versions of corporal creatures, from the Plane of Shadows) (MotP p190)(3.5up p26)+
Appear similar to the original, but looks distorted and washed out.
Inherited Template that can be added to any corporeal creature. Becomes a ‘Magical Beast’
Gain:
+3 LA
+50% movement
+6 bonus on Move Silently checks
Darkvision 60’
Low-light vision.
Cold Resistance 5 +1 per HD (max. 20).
Shadow Blend – As long as the Shadow Creature is not in full daylight (or a Daylight spell), it can blend into the shadows, gaining Total Concealment.
One of the following per 4 HD (round up):
• +2 Luck bonus on all saving throws.
• Cause Fear at 5th, usable once per day.
• Damage Reduction 5/magic.
• Evasion.
• Mirror Image at 5th, usable once per day.
• Plane Shift (self only) at 15th to / from the Plane of Shadows,
usable once per day.
• Fast Healing 2.
i would take these abilities from the above list....... in order of aquisition per levels:
@4th lvl: Fast Healing 2
@8th lvl: Evasion
@12th lvl: +2 Luck bonus on all saving throws
@16th lvl: Damage Reduction 5/magic
@20th lvl: Plane Shift (self only) at 15th to / from the Plane of Shadows,
usable once per day
but then i would change the build to this:
Rogue 1/ Druid 16
:D
It's a decent template, but there's nothing in there a Rogue/Cleric can't already do inherently.
You have a thousand and one ways to 'disappear' as a rogue cleric.
You have evasion.
You can adjust your speed.
You can adjust your vision.
You can give yourself much higher than a +2 luck bonus to saves.
You can cast all of those spells as spells (well, maybe not mirror image).
You can give yourself better than fast healing 2.
You can give yourself better DR.
You can give yourself better than +6 to a skill check.
So 2 levels or the XP if you play with buyback nets you...well, nothing other than maybe a few spell slots, which you may get anyway from the extra levels.
If you're playing a non-caster rogueish type, Shadow Creature is flipping awesome. But as a caster, you can already beat it.
what makes it Nice is that you Dont have to spend a Spell to gain any of those abilities.... very nice if your Buffs get Dispeled
if you can Buy Off the LA, it is awesome
and they carry over to the Wildshaped Form also
:D
Sacred Outlaw
Prerequisites: Sneak Attack +2d6, ability to turn or rebuke undead
Benefit: Cleric and rogue levels stack for determining turning check and damage. Cleric and rogue levels stack for determining sneak attack damage (i.e. rogue 3/ cleric 4 would have a turning check and damage like a 7th level cleric and have +4d6 sneak attack)
Becomes a ‘Magical Beast’
This is actually a decent benefit by itself. It makes you immune to anything that only affects humanoids.
+50% movement
+6 bonus on Move Silently checks
Darkvision 60’
Low-light vision.
This stuff is all ok, but nothing to go crazy about. The +50% movement is the best of the lot, and most difficult to reproduce since it will stack with any spells an untemplated character would use to boost his speed to match it.
Cold Resistance 5 +1 per HD (max. 20).
Easily replaced by a spell.
Shadow Blend – As long as the Shadow Creature is not in full daylight (or a Daylight spell), it can blend into the shadows, gaining Total Concealment.
This is actually really freakin' good, easily the best ability of the template IMO. Make sure you carry around a rock with Deeper Darkness on it, and you're basically untargetable. It's like having permanent Improved Invisibility, as long as you make sure to stay out of full daylight.
• +2 Luck bonus on all saving throws.
• Evasion.
• Fast Healing 2.
These are pretty good, but evasion is easily gotten by taking the 2nd level of rogue or buying a ring later. Also, you need a really good Reflex save to benefit from it, and all it usually does is reduce damage from area effects a bit, which you can resist or heal using spells.
Fast Healing is easy to get temporarily if you can use non-core books, but having it all the time is decent. But since you're a cleric, you could just heal yourself with spells instead, or a wand.
The +2 Luck bonus to all saves is nice, but using the DMG pricing rules, a magic item for that would cost 8000 gp.
• Mirror Image at 5th, usable once per day.
• Plane Shift (self only) at 15th to / from the Plane of Shadows,
usable once per day.
• Cause Fear at 5th, usable once per day.
• Damage Reduction 5/magic.
None of these are that great. The SLAs are only once per day, and the DR is too weak and easily bypassed.
So overall, the template would be decent for a non-caster, but if you're a caster, as others have said having more spells and higher level spells is probably worth more.
Mixing casting and non-casting classes often just leaves you gimped if you're not careful. You wind up with crappy natural combat abilities, and crappy spells. It is certainly possible to make effective hybrid multiclass characters, but some are more difficult than others, and in a game with restricted books rogue/cleric is one of the most difficult ones.
Any thoughts?
Originally Posted by carnivore View Post
Becomes a ‘Magical Beast’
This is actually a decent benefit by itself. It makes you immune to anything that only affects humanoids.
It only turns animals and vermin into Magical Beasts. It has no effect on Humanoids other than granting the Extraplanar subtype.
We don't need another fighter type we have tons of those, well 3.
I was going to be the skillmonkey, trapfinding, pick pocketing, always stealing, sneaky guy.
I am starting with 5400 gp for a 4th lvl toon, so right off I am going to buy a hat of disquise so the rest of the party doesn't know I am a human.
I rolled up this new toon and didnt get any thing higher than a 15.
15,15,15,11,11,8
We dont have any spellcasters, well one stoopid orc psion, one orc barb who killed my last character while enraged, and a undead orc monk.
I need to fill a couple of roles, that is why i was going rogue,cleric,wizard.
Trying to make the best of it, and have fun also.
any suggestions? I am kinda limited on the books, which i posted at the beginning of this post.
thanks again for all of the help....
This is just what I want to build this character about. Stealing things off of people?!?!?!?
Oh this is just getting better. I just need the right build to make it work.
If you want to mix rogue with magic, what you're basically going for, are spells that make up for skill lacks or provide boosts you can't get with skills, and classes that provide as few skill-ability lacks as possible (or grant more).
The book limitation is going to throw off any of the usual suggestions I'd make (unseen seer, daggerspell mage), but let me see what I can come up with...
If you really want to go shadow human, it does provide a lot, though you will have to watch out for banishments/et al, with the extraplanar subtype. But, if you're in Acheron, you've got that subtype regardless. So...
Shadow Human Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 10
Get's you 8th level spells and 7d6 Sneak Attack. You're BAB sucks, though.
Rogue 1/Druid 17
Get's you 9th level spells, and wildshape abuse. The druid spell list is also additionally nice in that it effectively sits somewhere between the Cleric and Wizard list.
What are the main strengths for a rogue/druid build.
What kind of wildshape abuse do you mean?
Sorry for all the noob questions
thanks
It's all core too.
I want to optimize a 4th lvl build, take a look at it and way the pro's and cons.
thanks
Where can i find that? or is that a house rule.
thanks
How do you buy off level adjustments?
Where can i find that? or is that a house rule.
thanks
Unearthed Arcana. And www.d20srd.org.
thanks