Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 merrshaulk Nov 30, 2008 5:59:45	Heya all. I'm after a build based around the Warlock class from Complete Arcane. Just about to start a level 18 game, and liked the look of it, so its what I'm using. I'd like a rogue-like build, that makes use of some of the sneaky-ness of the warlock, as I know all the other party roles will be taken (Almost everyone in the group sticks to one or two classes/roles with very little variation. Cleric or Favoured soul, a Palamonk{Or Monkadin, whatever} and probably a Dwarven Fighter and Wizard or Sorcerer). As for race, I really don't care. Yuan-Ti Pureblood might be cool, I guess, but eh. Umm... Main reason I'm going with Warlock is because of their ability to stay at the same power for indefinite perids of time. Not even a Sorcerer is capable of lasting 6-7 encounters without a drop in damage output. Basically that means I'd like to steer clear of any builds that rely on abilities that can only be used once or twice a day. Please note: Rely. If it's a something that provides a little extra when you need it, then that's fine. If it's something that's at the core of the builds power, then well... I really don't care what you do other than that. If it's a sneaky warlock, then I'm happy, really. I kinda envision it as more of a recon/scout character than sneak attacker though. I'd like you to include the Invocations you chose as well, of course. Some Must Haves on that front: Vitriolic Blast, Baleful Utterance and Fell Flight. Sourcebooks that are available? Well, whatever you have I'll probably be able to find/borrow, but splashbooks might be frowned upon by the DM for this campaign (I tend to use heaps of third-party sources, so I don't know as much about the more 'Official' stuff). I've already generated stats according to this DM's rules, and ended up with a respectable 14, 18, 15, 18, 18, 16 to assign as I (or rather, you) see fit (I'd like to keep those three 18s. On 4d6 drop lowest, that's pretty impressive). Basically all I've done is take the Yuan-Ti race for four levels of Monstrous Humanoid, then the rest is all warlock (Using the Reducing Level Adjustment variant rules, located here) I've also got 440000 gp to spend on equipment and the like, so go crazy with that. If you do include equipment, please give prices. So yeah... A sneaky, snakelike warlock with the ability to use wands effectively. If there's any other information you'll need, I'll give it. Sorry if I seem a little demanding (JSYK, I've read the Warlock Handbook thread, and a few CO boards in the archives on Warlocks, but haven't come up with much from them)
#2 gorfnad_the_shiznit Nov 30, 2008 17:46:17	Yuan-ti HD 4/Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 1/Warlock 6/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6 Feats needed: Blindfight, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack Warlock gets you Flee the Scene which qualifies you for Shadowlord (Forgotten Realms, Unapproachable East). You'll want Dex and Int as your high stats with Cha and Con following behind. For the remaining feats I suggest Martial Study: Shadow Jaunt (or one of its derivatives at higher levels) and Martial Stance: Assassins Stance. Craven and Darkstalker feats are also good choices. Other weirder option is to go Spellthief 1/ Rogue 2 instead of Rogue 3 and take the Master Spellthief feat for some seriously wacky spellcasting/stealing.
#3 Maat_Mons Nov 30, 2008 18:44:09	Are you set on Yuan-Ti? The feat Able Learner is available to humans. It allows them to spend only 1 skill point to raise a skill 1 level even if it is cross-class. Since your maximum ranks in a skill is 3 + level as long as you have at least 1 class for which it is a class skill, you can easily keep skills maxed out while only taking 1 level in a class for which they are class skills. Since the sneakiness requirement is a matter of skill ranks, Able Learner would allow you to fulfill it with any class. Even if you put the 14 in intelligence and take a class with 2 + intelligence skills per level, you can still max out any 5 skills. I would recommend Eldritch Disciple as an option. With Warlock 4 / Cleric 4 / Eldritch Disciple 10, you have invocations and eldritch blast as a 14th level warlock and divine casting as a 13th level cleric. Use eldritch glaive to make 3 touch attacks per round with 7d6 damage each. The cleric spells are sure to be handy, even if you don’t make them a central part of your tactics. If you want a +2 LA template to throw onto the human, try Phrenic Creature, it gets you SR 10 + hit dice, +2 intelligence, +2 wisdom, and +4 charisma.
#4 jaronk Nov 30, 2008 22:09:59	My main advice would be to take Craft Wonderous Items and handle the item creation yourself... CWI gives all kinds of flexibility. You can craft your own wands with Craft Wand too if you like. JaronK
#5 merrshaulk Nov 30, 2008 23:00:35	I'm liking the look of the War4/Cler4/EDisc10. I'm thinking that I'll go with the Celerity and Mind domains for the cleric levels, as they both are centered around effects that can't be duplicated by a Warlock... Though Celerity only has 3 useful spells. Eldritch Glaive + that Healing ability granted by the Eldritch Disciple looks pretty useful too. As for feats, well, Able Learner is a must (Thanks for pointing that out, that's an awesome feat). Quicken Spell-Like Ability for my Eldritch Blast is another in that catergory. I -think- I'll also go with Quick Reconnoiter from Complete Adventurer, as well as Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, but if you have better suggestions please give them. At the moment, I'm wondering if Practiced Spellcaster is worth it, as taking it as a warlock is useless (Duration for all buff invocations is 24 hours no matter what, and Vitrollic Blast ignores SR anyway[Hmm, that raises another point: Do I need SP and GSP?]), and my Cleric spells will probably just be simple buffs that don't really need a long duration anyway. Another thing: Is there any way of applying the Metamagic "Twinspell" to a Spell-Like ability, I:E Eldritch Blast? I haven't come across the rarer Metamagic feats for SLAs... I'm not sure about the Phrenic Template. I really like the stuff, but LA tends to get more and more of a burden at higher levels. I'll probably end up using it with the Reducing Level Adjustment rules if the DM allows it
#6 Maat_Mons Dec 01, 2008 3:30:23	Minor shapeshift is always a tempting feat for casters. You could give yourself 18 temporary hit points as a swift action at will. Clerics have a bit of difficulty getting a spell from the polymorph subschool to fuel the feat. The animal, drow, or gluttony domains would suffice though. The divine magician alternate class feature is worth consideration. You would more-or-less build your own domain from wizard spells of the abjuration, divination, and necromancy schools.
#7 merrshaulk Dec 01, 2008 5:19:19	For that Minor Shapeshift thing, would the Warlock invocation that turns you into a swarm qualify, or does it the polymorph-y spell have to come from my cleric levels? Divine Magician doesn't really look all that inviting. Necromancy is frowned upon in this setting, I'll get reported and imprisoned for using it, and Divination and Abjuration is covered by another character. And I really need all my feats to be as optimised as possible. Oh, and I just found out that this is in a limited magic setting, so wands are pretty much right out unless I spend a ****load on them, and magic items are at something like three times their normal cost and can't be above +4. This means the Craft feats are looking pretty good (Probably take a disadvantage or two to get them)
#8 Maat_Mons Dec 01, 2008 17:20:36	For minor shapeshift, it has to be a spell, not a spell-like ability. Moreover, the spell must either specifically be listed with the polymorph descriptor, or be a descendant of alter self or polymorph.
#9 gilfalas_elaandrin Dec 02, 2008 12:46:03	For minor shapeshift, it has to be a spell, not a spell-like ability. Moreover, the spell must either specifically be listed with the polymorph descriptor, or be a descendant of alter self or polymorph. Does that override the rules in Complete Arcane that state that warlocks can use their SLA's to qualify for feats and PrC's that require specific spells?
#10 emansdrawkcab Dec 03, 2008 0:26:43	Make sure to Pick up Beshadowed or Brimstone Blast at level 4 of Warlock, then Fell Flight at effective Warlock level 8: Changeling (Don't know what race you had in mind, but level 1 [10 +INT]*4 skills...) 1 - Rogue (Racial Substitution) - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Craven 2 - Warlock - 3 - Warlock - Feat 4 - Warlock - 5 - Warlock - 6 - Scout - Feat 7 - Scout - 8 - Scout - 9 - Scout - Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest), Swift Ambusher 10 - Hellfire Warlock - 11 - Hellfire Warlock - 12 - Hellfire Warlock - Feat 13 - Paragonistic Apostle (Accurate Retort) - 14 - Rogue (Spell Reflection) - 15 - Scout - Flyby Attack 16 - Scout - 17 - Scout - 18 - Scout - Feat, Improved Skirmish 19 - Scout - 20 - Scout - Eldritch (Hellfire) Blast - 10d6 Sneak Attack - 5d6 + 18 Skirmish (Improved) - 5d6, +4 AC Feat Options: Weapon Focus (Eldritch Blast)/ Dead Eye (DEX to ranged damage), Knowledge Devotion (If you decide to embrace INT, and/or get Otherworldly Whispers), Maximize Spell-like Ability, Quicken Spell-like Ability And remember, Codex Advocares are your friend.
#11 Maat_Mons Dec 03, 2008 0:50:26	Does that override the rules in Complete Arcane that state that warlocks can use their SLA's to qualify for feats and PrC's that require specific spells? Use of the feat requires having the spell prepared or an unused spell slot that could be used to cast the spell. The text you have sighted allows having spell-like abilities to count as knowing the spell for purposes of feat requirements. I do not believe it would allow having spell-like abilities to count as having spells prepared or open spell slots.
#12 DrWorm Dec 03, 2008 2:44:03	I am building an NPC for a campaign. How do meta-magic feats work with SLA?
#13 rasmus_wagner Dec 03, 2008 3:07:07	I am building an NPC for a campaign. How do meta-magic feats work with SLA? They don't. You use [Metamagic] Spell-like Ability instead. IIRC, Quicken and Empower have been published, but the formula is clear: The feat is dedicated to a specific SLA, usable up to 3/day, and can affect a SLA with a maximum spell level of (CL/2 - metamagic adjustment).
#14 merrshaulk Dec 04, 2008 2:13:19	I have a question about those Meta-SLA feats too: Do they actually reduce the effective caster level when you apply them, or is is just a matter of what they can be used on? Because if they do reduce the caster level, Quicken would take my EB from 7d6 to 3d6.. I know that means higher average damage if I cast it twice, but at 3x/day, it's not really that advantageous
#15 rasmus_wagner Dec 04, 2008 3:20:03	I have a question about those Meta-SLA feats too: Do they actually reduce the effective caster level when you apply them, or is is just a matter of what they can be used on? Because if they do reduce the caster level, Quicken would take my EB from 7d6 to 3d6.. I know that means higher average damage if I cast it twice, but at 3x/day, it's not really that advantageous They don't reduce caster level.
#16 DrWorm Dec 04, 2008 4:48:16	So there is a feat that allows a warlock to do a maximized EB 3 times a day at the d6 level they are currently at? That seems nuts. Warlock is already crazy good, imo, but with this it seems like damage insanity.
#17 kell_kheraptis Dec 04, 2008 7:55:40	So there is a feat that allows a warlock to do a maximized EB 3 times a day at the d6 level they are currently at? That seems nuts. Warlock is already crazy good, imo, but with this it seems like damage insanity. Warlock's got nothing on a WoF/MoC sorc for damage, no contest...that said, there's an absolutely bad ass build floating around by Carnivore that's Warlock 1/Cleric 4/Eldritch Disciple 8/Knight of the Raven 7, for +16 BAB/9th level Cleric spells/Eldritch Glaive goodness, based on Illumian for the +3 CL (which also boosts EB, if you follow the designer's intent on Practiced Spellcaster). It also happens to be my current warlock-y build in a level 20 game (alongside a Ninja 20 and Scout 20, who will love when I lock things down with that glaive+spell combo). If you want sneakiness, Domain choice or even the standard cleric spells can give massive boosts to Hide and Move Silently, and Anyspell/Greater Anyspell can emulate the standard sneaking spells. Combined with at will Dimension Door and Flight, they'll never see you coming (though you will with a persistant Forsight spell :D ).
#18 frerezar Dec 04, 2008 9:48:01	could you please give a lil bit more insight into the KNIGHT OF THE RAVEN PrC? The build sound pretty crazy
#19 kell_kheraptis Dec 04, 2008 11:23:04	could you please give a lil bit more insight into the KNIGHT OF THE RAVEN PrC? The build sound pretty crazy KotR comes from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, and the link to the post I found the build in is here ~>http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=17280208&postcount=20 the Super Holy Warrior.
#20 merrshaulk Dec 05, 2008 5:21:18	So a Warlock could do a Quickened Maximised Twinspelled (If the DM allows Twinspell) Eldritch Glaive? That's 360 damage as a swift action! Of course, you'd need to be well into the Epic levels to do it, and it's only three times a day but it's still impressive.
#21 frerezar Dec 05, 2008 8:45:25	hey if you ar gonna try to pull that with your DM might as well ask him for persistent SLA, enervating SLA, etc etc. If he is a david haselhoff cardboard cutout he might go for it
#22 emansdrawkcab Dec 05, 2008 12:36:11	There aren't the same amount of Meta-SLA feats as there are Metamagic. Quicken and Maximize are the two most notable in my eyes.
#23 gilfalas_elaandrin Dec 05, 2008 12:50:21	Use of the feat requires having the spell prepared or an unused spell slot that could be used to cast the spell. The text you have sighted allows having spell-like abilities to count as knowing the spell for purposes of feat requirements. I do not believe it would allow having spell-like abilities to count as having spells prepared or open spell slots. Thank you very much, that clears it right up.
#24 frerezar Dec 05, 2008 14:22:58	soo in theory, what would be the metamagic feat you would never allow to have a SLA ability version of? (from a DM stand point)
#25 emansdrawkcab Dec 05, 2008 16:36:34	Persistent, pretty much. For the same reason many people don't allow it as a metamagic feat either.
#26 merrshaulk Dec 06, 2008 2:08:54	A lot metamagic feats when applied to SLA's could easily be irrevocably broken, as the limits set by the metamagic feat may not apply to spell like abilities. If I was DM-ing, I'd rule against Persistent and all Metamagic feats not in the core books for the purposes of SLA's.. But then again, this DM isn't that draconic, so I might get away with more then I technically should. Edit: Hmm... Would Meta-SLA feats qualify for the feat "Divine Metamagic"? Or does the feat description specifically say metaMAGIC?
#27 emansdrawkcab Dec 06, 2008 3:15:22	A lot metamagic feats when applied to SLA's could easily be irrevocably broken, as the limits set by the metamagic feat may not apply to spell like abilities. If I was DM-ing, I'd rule against Persistent and all Metamagic feats not in the core books for the purposes of SLA's.. But then again, this DM isn't that draconic, so I might get away with more then I technically should. Edit: Hmm... Would Meta-SLA feats qualify for the feat "Divine Metamagic"? Or does the feat description specifically say metaMAGIC? The reason I wouldn't allow Persistent SLAs is because the Meta-SLA feats only have 3/day uses. DMM and Meta-SLA feats don't work together at all.
#28 carnivore Dec 06, 2008 14:40:03	try this... assumes that you Buyoff one LA: Pixie 4/ Warlock 17 8d6 EB DR 14/ Cold iron Feats: Dodge(pixie bonus) Alertness(pixie bonus) Weapon Finnesse(pixie bonus) 1st lvl: Improved Flight(good>Perfect) 3rd lvl: Quick Reconoiter 6th lvl: Darkstalker 9th lvl: Flyby Attack 12th lvl: Quicken Spell-like ability(EB) 15th lvl: ???? Invocations: least All Seeing Eyes See the Unseen: Eldritch Spear lesser Flee the Scene Deteriorating Blast Void Sense greater Chilling Tentacles Devil's whispers (Cityscape) Vitriolic Blast Dark Word of Changing or Utterdark Blast lots of fun... easy to Play.... great Stealth and Detection abilities combined with great Movement and Unlimited Offense :D
#29 emansdrawkcab Dec 06, 2008 14:56:24	Pixie this, Pixie that. I love Pixies! Pixies, Pixies, Pixies!
#30 thinblade Dec 06, 2008 16:00:44	Warlock and pixie go really, really well together, since the EB neatly avoids the problem of doing 1d2 damage with weapons, or coming up with exotic armors to keep you from dying. I've never played one, but I think it's a great concept, especially if you reflavor the warlock as drawing power from the fey. Avenging pixie, anyone?
#31 emansdrawkcab Dec 06, 2008 17:50:33	Not to mention, at-will Greater Invisibilty and racial flight means flight, Sneak Attacks during Flyby Attacks are likely. One thing I really enjoy about Warlocks in general are Codex Advocares. They are amazing for unnamed skill bonuses, and other useful skills for a cheap 20,000: Leaps and Bounds, Otherworldly Whispers, Beguiling Influence, All Seeing Eyes, Entropic Warding...
#32 thinblade Dec 06, 2008 19:40:55	Yeah, but you have to carry the book around with you or you lose access to the invocation. Personally, I would have preferred it to be a book that permanently grants you one least invocation, that you can only use once. And the pixie's abysmal Str makes toting your own personal dark library around a bit difficult.
#33 carnivore Dec 06, 2008 23:05:51	Yeah, but you have to carry the book around with you or you lose access to the invocation. Personally, I would have preferred it to be a book that permanently grants you one least invocation, that you can only use once. And the pixie's abysmal Str makes toting your own personal dark library around a bit difficult. thats what Handy Haversacks are for... or any other item that you would normally use to transport all of your stuff(bag of Holding, Portable Hole, Belt of many pockets,etc...) but since Pixies get great boost to stats... they dont necessarily need to have a low Str.... exa: 32 pt buy for a Warlock 12 Str(16-4 Racial) 22 Dex(14+8 Racial) 14 Con(14) 16 Int(10+6 Racial) 14 Wis(10+4 Racial) 20 Cha(14+6 Racial) give a carry capacity of: 43 lb. or less for a Light load 44–86 lb. for a medium load 87–130 lb. for a Heavy Load but since they are small... they have 3/4 of that capacity..thus: 32 lb. or less for a Light load 33–64 lb. for a medium load 65–97 lb. for a Heavy Load 32lbs is fine... since they dont need a lot of equipment anyways... Monks Belt(1 lb) and +8 Bracers of Armor(1 lb) and +5 Ring of Protection(0 lb) and +5 Amulet of Natural Armor(0 lb) total cost= 177000gp will give a Pixie with the above Stats: AC 40 = Base 10 +1 Dodge +1 Size +6 Dex +2 Wis +8 Armor +1 Monk +6 Natural Armor(+1 normal +5 enhancement=+6) +5 Deflection they dont need other weapons if they are Warlocks... they will have DR, SR, on top of everything that has been mentioned usually Weapons or Armor is the most heavy things you will carry ..... other than Treasure(thats for Pack Animals or Hirelings)..... but usually you dont have the Pixie carry much stuff ..... its not thier Bag yay Pixies Go Pixies Go Pixies Go Pixies :D
#34 merrshaulk Dec 07, 2008 0:35:35	Codex Advocares? *Intruiged* What does it do and what sourcebook is it from? Edit: And while I'm asking questions (Do I ever stop?), what are some items that grant a bonus to my Dex/Ranged attack rolls, specifically for EB? At the moment, I've got +1 profane to Ranged attack (Warlocks Scepter), +4 enhancement to Dex (Cat's Grace) and +2 untyped from Wild Frenzy, which could be improved, I'm sure. THanks in advance to anyone who comes up with something
#35 thinblade Dec 07, 2008 18:58:25	Oh, I'm not saying it can't be done, it can just get annoying. Personally, I go with the portable hole, partly because of the amazing Dragon article on them years back. Merrshaulk: Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. Costs 20k, but grants you an extra least invocation as long as you possess the book.