Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 theveggiejerk2 Dec 29, 2009 17:01:53	Ok so before we continue, I DON'T want to hear about how crappy the warmage is and all that noise. We're starting this campaign at level 10 there's no level cap or multiclassing penalties. my character is a halfling wererat. I want to combine blade magic with warmage stuff cuz that just sounds awesome! So I was thinking like a warmage/swordsage/ jade phoenix mage but apparently I have to be a daggerspell mage first and then forget my training in order to become a JPM (DM and I have overactive imaginations I guess) anywho so I've come here asking the experts for advice my stats are (after adjustments due to race, template an the 2 from being level 4 and 8 these are changeable if need be): STR 10 DEX 18 CON 12 INT 16 WIS 18 CHA 18 (with cloak of charisma) Books available to use: the core books obviously, completes (arcane, divine, scoundrel, adventurer, mage, warrior) , Libris Mortis (apparently we're going to be dealing with LOTS of undead good and bad), heroes of horror, sandstorm, stormwrack PHB2, spell compendium (dm is allowing me to add spells from this book and others if I remove some spells from my original spell list so advice on which should I take would be awesome) and Tome of Battle.  Hope to hear from you soon
#2 theveggiejerk2 Dec 29, 2009 19:45:48	what no help?
#3 waazraath Dec 31, 2009 6:56:29	Ok so before we continue, I DON'T want to hear about how crappy the warmage is and all that noise. We're starting this campaign at level 10 there's no level cap or multiclassing penalties. my character is a halfling wererat. I want to combine blade magic with warmage stuff cuz that just sounds awesome! So I was thinking like a warmage/swordsage/ jade phoenix mage but apparently I have to be a daggerspell mage first and then forget my training in order to become a JPM (DM and I have overactive imaginations I guess) anywho so I've come here asking the experts for advice my stats are (after adjustments due to race, template an the 2 from being level 4 and 8 these are changeable if need be): STR 10 DEX 18 CON 12 INT 16 WIS 18 CHA 18 (with cloak of charisma) Books available to use: the core books obviously, completes (arcane, divine, scoundrel, adventurer, mage, warrior) , Libris Mortis (apparently we're going to be dealing with LOTS of undead good and bad), heroes of horror, sandstorm, stormwrack PHB2, spell compendium (dm is allowing me to add spells from this book and others if I remove some spells from my original spell list so advice on which should I take would be awesome) and Tome of Battle.  Hope to hear from you soon  I'd consider going for Crusader as martial adept base class. For swordsage as well as warblade, cha is a dump stat, Crusader uses it at least a bit with his indomitable soul and smite class abiilities (though that isn't too much either, I have to admit). Crusader also gives more staying power in melee then SS, with better hd, steely resolve and manouvers that let you heal yourself a bit. Also, JPM advances the devoted spirit discipline and makes acces to the stance aura of chaos easier... since you'll fight with 2 weapons (I suppose, with daggerspell mage?) you really want that, and the feat arcane strike. I'd be carefull though, you won't have that many hitpoints and I think you lack staying power in melee, also because warmage hardly gives the opportunity to buff yourself (if you dm allows you to swap spells, get rid of some offensive ones for ones like mirror immage, blur, wraithstrike, enlarge). But with this build, I'd seriously consider some way to prevent you ending up in front of a monster, like spring attack, flyby attack/tumble, enlarge/reach weapon/stand still, something like that. Good luck.
#4 kell_kheraptis Jan 01, 2010 18:45:22	I'm working on a ToB JPM Gish version of my Warmage Batman, I'll post it up once I have it finished.  It would have access to the Cleric, Warmage, Sor/Wiz, and Paladin spell lists, spontaneously, and fully.
#5 toryn Jan 03, 2010 19:33:10	I'd consider going for Crusader as martial adept base class. For swordsage as well as warblade, cha is a dump stat, Crusader uses it at least a bit with his indomitable soul and smite class abiilities (though that isn't too much either, I have to admit). Crusader also gives more staying power in melee then SS, with better hd, steely resolve and manouvers that let you heal yourself a bit. Also, JPM advances the devoted spirit discipline and makes acces to the stance aura of chaos easier... since you'll fight with 2 weapons (I suppose, with daggerspell mage?) you really want that, and the feat arcane strike. I'd be carefull though, you won't have that many hitpoints and I think you lack staying power in melee, also because warmage hardly gives the opportunity to buff yourself (if you dm allows you to swap spells, get rid of some offensive ones for ones like mirror immage, blur, wraithstrike, enlarge). But with this build, I'd seriously consider some way to prevent you ending up in front of a monster, like spring attack, flyby attack/tumble, enlarge/reach weapon/stand still, something like that. Good luck. Why would you need arcane strike if you were going JPM?
#6 phaedrusxy Jan 04, 2010 10:56:39	I don't see why you can't use Arcane Strike + Arcane Wrath (or whatever it is called) at the same time, so why wouldn't you?
#7 waazraath Jan 04, 2010 15:10:05	I don't see why you can't use Arcane Strike + Arcane Wrath (or whatever it is called) at the same time, so why wouldn't you? True, you can use both, arcane strike = free action, arcane wrath = swift. Reason I specificly suggested arcane strike is that the extra damage goes for every attack you make in a round, arcane wrath only works for one attack. Since the OP seems to go for 2weapon fighting (because of the daggerspell mage) I'd favour the arcane strike. Also, there's better synergy with aura of chaos (better to have the smallest die possible to enforce more rerolls). I'd prolly make the build not using 2 weapons, but instead 2 handed reach, using arcane wrath only unless having feats too much, and then taking arcane strike as well. (using both really cost a lot of spells and is a bit too much nova for me).
#8 toryn Jan 04, 2010 21:34:06	I don't see why you can't use Arcane Strike + Arcane Wrath (or whatever it is called) at the same time, so why wouldn't you? I didn't know you could use both each round lol. Every game where I have played a JPM was one or the other.
#9 kell_kheraptis Jan 06, 2010 6:29:14	I don't see why you can't use Arcane Strike + Arcane Wrath (or whatever it is called) at the same time, so why wouldn't you? I didn't know you could use both each round lol. Every game where I have played a JPM was one or the other. That's because usually they're keeping Arcane Wrath for when they initiate a standard action strike that is only a single attack, and attempting to save spell slots.  RAW though, it's perfectly valid to get both on the same attack, and with a nice maneuver, the damage would rock.  Now, as for the Warmage build : Warmage 6/Crusader 1/Prestige Paladin 1/JPM 1-2/Contemplative 1/JPM 3-10/Spellsword 1 This will give you 9th level spells off the Warmage, Paladin, Cleric, and Sor/Wiz list with Sword of the Arcane Order, and further will allow autoquickening from Battle Blessing.  You've got the potential to wear nearly any armor, thanks to Armored Mage and an additional -10% ASF, the cleric buffs to make the AC from it godly, healing from maneuvers, no actions lost to renewing maneuvers (though Warblade does make it easier to get IHS, which is GOLD to a gish, but...~>), and the potential to take Initiate of Mystra, since you also share THAT spell list.  Wanna crank it up a notch?  Make sure to make room for either Otherworldly or play as a Lesser Fey'ri (Unseelie Fey template if possible), trade out those racial weapon feats since you get full simple and martial as an outsider, and Polymorph/PAO into a Planetar.  Now you have the full Warmage progression (CL and Casting 18th, 9th level spells) with the above lists, and in addition the casting of a 17th level cleric to boot.  Don't dump that Wis!  Str and Dex can take a hit, and if you're an outsider, might as well be venerable, since you don't take adverse effects from it, and we all love +3 mental stats like the kobolds get.  Last but not least, you only need a 19 Wis ultimately, and if you did your homework as a Warmage, you only need an 11 Wisdom before persisting (we can turn, remember) necrotic empowerment for +8 Wis among other things (like +8 Dex and Int, 100 temp hp, +5 Fort saves, and +4 or 5 Nat Armor).  If the BAB isn't high enough for you at 16, you have access to divine power as well, not to mention a case can be made for using miracle to turn into a Col Planetar from giant size.  Alternately, sub in 2 levels of the adaptation of Rainbow Servant for a suitable creature that would have the Hero domain, and snag it that way.  Hope this helps, and hopefully the reek of gouda isn't too strong! ~Kell PS : Sorry for the delay, been busy lately O.o
#10 waazraath Jan 06, 2010 7:08:24	Some questions: - how do u qualify for prestige paladin? (especially turn undead and protection from evil as a divine spell)? - Isn't it a bit far stretched to assume that battle blessing works for all your spells? Considering you don't have paladin spells, cause prestige paladin doesn't give you acces to paladin spells, but it only improves the casting of the divine spelcasting class you already had levels in. And battle blessing specificly states it's only paladin spells that can be quickened for free.. - Sword of the arcane order lets you fill paladin spellslots (that you technically don't have) with wizard spells, either from your own spellbook (that you don't have, unless I miss something) or from another spellbook. To make it work, you'd need a partymember who is a lvl 17 wiz (even besides the fact that technically, you don't have any paladin spellslots to fill). - How do you work fix stuff with allignment? Paladin = LG, unseelie fey = evil, necrotic empowerment = evil... I don't want to be too critical, but atm I just don't see how you can make this work.
#11 kell_kheraptis Jan 06, 2010 7:53:11	Some questions: - how do u qualify for prestige paladin? (especially turn undead and protection from evil as a divine spell)? - Isn't it a bit far stretched to assume that battle blessing works for all your spells? Considering you don't have paladin spells, cause prestige paladin doesn't give you acces to paladin spells, but it only improves the casting of the divine spelcasting class you already had levels in. And battle blessing specificly states it's only paladin spells that can be quickened for free.. - Sword of the arcane order lets you fill paladin spellslots (that you technically don't have) with wizard spells, either from your own spellbook (that you don't have, unless I miss something) or from another spellbook. To make it work, you'd need a partymember who is a lvl 17 wiz (even besides the fact that technically, you don't have any paladin spellslots to fill). - How do you work fix stuff with allignment? Paladin = LG, unseelie fey = evil, necrotic empowerment = evil... I don't want to be too critical, but atm I just don't see how you can make this work. You must have missed my warmage guide, no worries though.  PrC Pally is meant to replace the standard paladin, thus each alignment is represented.  Necrotic Empowerment was only a suggestion.  The standard boost with a 15 works, too.  As for race, none of those have a manditory alignment.  And the trick is that PrC Pally indeed does add the paladin list, if you read the description of the PrC classes.  Thus, your warmage casting is also your paladin casting.  Dragon Magic covers the rest, giving you the ability to take feats related to lists once you have the required # of spellcasting levels.  As for filling the slots with spells, the warmage mechanic once again pwns the system, as shared by the healer, beguiler, and dread necro.  Even if the DM rules you need a spellbook and shoots down the warmage's learning mechanic (which as stated above is RAW, but ironically is also RAW to require the book), a Tome of Ancient Lore is only a couple thousand gp, and one feat to use, and also just having it might even fulfill a picky DM requirement, as you are still a spontaneous caster.  This is one of my trademarks, the PrC Pally on Warmage to snag Sor/Wiz spells, and the point of it all is ultimate on the fly versatility. Now a correction above : you will need to keep Sanctum Spell (used in qualifying) in order to cast 9th level spells, but since you automatically know all your spells, this isn't a big deal.  As written though, that JPM Warmage has a CL of 17, one shy of getting 9th's the old fashioned way.
#12 waazraath Jan 06, 2010 8:13:49	I'll check out the warmage guide later this evening, am not familiar with it indeed. Do you have a link? The prestige pally has requirement LG, but then again, since UA also features a paladin variant of slaughter, tyranny & freedom it's logical to assume u can make a prestige pally for them as well. Ah, and I see now where it says that you keep the normal pally spells, it's a sidebar, that's why I missed it. Still doubt though if you can consider all your spells pally spells because of that...
#13 kell_kheraptis Jan 06, 2010 8:36:49	Think of Sword of the Arcane Order warmages as mini-Pun-puns in that they carry a TO tag :P  It is kinda my MO, really.  But they are great fun to play, and actually easier on newbies since they can just crack open a book with spells and fling away, as opposed to all the legwork of the Vancians and all the labor of choosing just the right spells on a Sorc/Favored Soul.  Not to mention, Battle Blessing + Arcane Spellsurge = a whole lot of spells now only taking one action or less.
#14 toryn Jan 06, 2010 20:30:25	I didn't know you could use both each round lol. Every game where I have played a JPM was one or the other. That's because usually they're keeping Arcane Wrath for when they initiate a standard action strike that is only a single attack, and attempting to save spell slots.  RAW though, it's perfectly valid to get both on the same attack, and with a nice maneuver, the damage would rock.  Now, as for the Warmage build : Warmage 6/Crusader 1/Prestige Paladin 1/JPM 1-2/Contemplative 1/JPM 3-10/Spellsword 1 This will give you 9th level spells off the Warmage, Paladin, Cleric, and Sor/Wiz list with Sword of the Arcane Order, and further will allow autoquickening from Battle Blessing.  You've got the potential to wear nearly any armor, thanks to Armored Mage and an additional -10% ASF, the cleric buffs to make the AC from it godly, healing from maneuvers, no actions lost to renewing maneuvers (though Warblade does make it easier to get IHS, which is GOLD to a gish, but...~>), and the potential to take Initiate of Mystra, since you also share THAT spell list.  Wanna crank it up a notch?  Make sure to make room for either Otherworldly or play as a Lesser Fey'ri (Unseelie Fey template if possible), trade out those racial weapon feats since you get full simple and martial as an outsider, and Polymorph/PAO into a Planetar.  Now you have the full Warmage progression (CL and Casting 18th, 9th level spells) with the above lists, and in addition the casting of a 17th level cleric to boot.  Don't dump that Wis!  Str and Dex can take a hit, and if you're an outsider, might as well be venerable, since you don't take adverse effects from it, and we all love +3 mental stats like the kobolds get.  Last but not least, you only need a 19 Wis ultimately, and if you did your homework as a Warmage, you only need an 11 Wisdom before persisting (we can turn, remember) necrotic empowerment for +8 Wis among other things (like +8 Dex and Int, 100 temp hp, +5 Fort saves, and +4 or 5 Nat Armor).  If the BAB isn't high enough for you at 16, you have access to divine power as well, not to mention a case can be made for using miracle to turn into a Col Planetar from giant size.  Alternately, sub in 2 levels of the adaptation of Rainbow Servant for a suitable creature that would have the Hero domain, and snag it that way.  Hope this helps, and hopefully the reek of gouda isn't too strong! ~Kell PS : Sorry for the delay, been busy lately O.o Thanks Kell for the answer. That warmage build is really cool. I will have to check that out. I usually use Dread Necro for JPM for Retrieve spell goodness, but this one is cool for Battle Blessing and SoftAO.