Anyway, I'm having some trouble building her because I want to keep her to certain restraints so that it can stay true to my character's back story, but we also lack anyone that can really take hits, so I want her to have good defenses too.
My constraints are as follows:
-Is an elf
-Mainly a melee fighter
-Cannot use divine magic
-Preferably casts arcane magic
-Lightly armored
-High AC and saves.
She's currently level 7, I can use any official WotC book, and we use the fractional version of BaB.
So far, I've been thinking of doing 2 Monk/ 2 Paladin/ 2 Sorc. / 1 Abjurant Champion. But I'm not really sure if this build is best for her.
I'm thinking of removing the lightly armored constraint to get a better AC (and maybe going battle sorc. so I can wear light armor without Arcane Spell Failure and the feat that can extend that to medium armor) but I would prefer if she stayed lightly armored/ not armored.
So, my question is, can someone help me give her a build that will give her the highest defenses possible, while staying to those above constraints? I'd prefer something that doesn't rely on armor, but if armor will give a significantly higher bonus, then I really won't mind.
Gish tend to be fairly week in mid-levels.....but you could start her off with something like....
Paladin 2/Battle Sorc 4/Abjurant Champion 1
the spell selection will be lean....but you could do worse for a lower-level gish. Try to find an elf variant that has favored class sorcerer and good stat modifiers.
A more off the beaten path one...
Duskblade 2/Paladin 2/Fighter 2/Suel Arcanamach 1
hard to pull off with an elf.....because of the MAD, but it leads on to become one of my favorite gish-esque builds ever. This one is probably something you should ignore, but I can't help but add it as the SuArc never gets enough play
Pally 2 / Sorc 5 isn't bad ... sure hits the high-saves aspect
Fighter 1 / Wizard 6 ... not quite as good on the saves, but stronger with magic
Duskblade 7 might be even more up your alley ... straight forward, direct and pretty much what you're describing.
Although, it doesn't really do much of anything other then having a high AC and good saves without using any armor.
...
I might just give up my lightly armored fetish and go pally/battle sorc or just duskblade.
You could also consider ...
Duskblade 3 / Pally 2 / Swordsage 2 / Suel Arcanamach -> Jade Phoenix Mage
Read the Ascetic Mage feat ... "if you add your WIS to AC you can instead add your CHA to AC" ... a Swordsage with Improved Unarmed Strike qualifies. Then you'd have CHA for your spells, martial maneuvers, the Duskblade channel spell ability, CHA to AC in light armor and CHA to saves.
Well, I chose monk under the thoughts of taking ascetic mage to gain the AC bonus and make it based on Charisma. The abjurant champion level was to make shield and deflect spells more potent. Then I can add my dexterity modifier and mage armor to the mix and stay unarmored to get the monk's bonus to AC.
Although, it doesn't really do much of anything other then having a high AC and good saves without using any armor.
...
I might just give up my lightly armored fetish and go pally/battle sorc or just duskblade.
In the longer run of things I think you would regret just shoving a couple levels of monk on the front of the build. You lose BAB, lose CL, and are even burning feats to get benefit from it. Plus it sounds like you are setting yourself up for MAD. Charisma for casting, strength for fighting, con for staying alive, dex for AC? It will be too much. You're better off jumping into some decent armor and worrying less about Dex. Just remember, down the road, if you are creative, you can wear full mithril plate with no spell failure chance by simply taking one level in Spellsword.
Edit: Sweet!!! Ask and ye shall receive! Nice SuArc build CG!
(The rest is copied from there verbatim)
Bard 4 / Fighter 1 / Spellsword 5 / Sublime Chord 2 / Sacred Exorcist 8
That gets you BAB +16, 9th level spells, channel spell and turn undead (for divine feats like Divine Might).
Some variations on that:
Tossing Abjurant Champion onto DaveTheMagicWeasel's build from page 1 might be a good idea:
Bard 4 / Fighter 1 / Spellsword 5 / Sublime Chord 2 / Sacred Exorcist 3/ Abjurant Champion 5
That gets you BAB +17, 9th level spells, channel spell and turn undead (use it for Divine Might, DMM only really works if you can take Southern Magician).
You could take Metamagic Song to use Bardic Music attempts to fuel Metamagic. You can't "break the Metamagic cap" the way you can with DMM, but it would still be nice for quickening a few buffs when needed.
Edit: Ah crap. I forgot about spontaneous casters and Quicken Spell. I always houserule that to work.
After trying to put together a build, I'm not sure Abjurant Champion is worth the feat it costs for this. Throwing in a couple of Palladin levels will cost you the last level of Sublime Chord progression, but give you Cha to saves from very early (if you take it early). I'm not sure if that's worth it. It would depend on which levels you'd expect to play at most, I'd guess. Anyway, here is a possible progression for it:
Half-elf Bard 4 / Pal 2 / Spellsword 5 / Sublime Chord 2 / Sacred Exorcist 7
1 Bard 1 Extra Music
2 Bard 2
3 Bard 3 Song of the Heart (instead of Inspire Confidence), Extra Music
4 Bard 4
5 Pal 1
6 Pal 2 Devoted Performer
7 Spellsword 1
8 SS2 Power Attack
9 SS3 Arcane Preparation
10 SS4 Extra Music, Quicken Spell
11 SS5
12 Sub Chord 1 Metamagic Song
13 SubC2
14 Sac Ex 1
15 Sac Ex 2 Divine Might
18 Sac Ex 5 Persistant Spell
This gives you 20 uses of Bardic Music which can be used to fuel metamagic (but which is worth using by itself), BAB +16, 9th level spells (I think), channel spell and turn undead (Divine Might, DMM only really works if you can take Southern Magician), and Cha to saves.
You could get Cha to saves from Ruin Delver's Fortune without Palladin, but it wouldn't be as reliable, or accessible as early.
Although, instead of ascetic mage I could take the "kung fu genius" feat so that the AC is applied to intelligence instead... but then I lose out on the pally's divine grace. Hmmm, maybe that idea isn't so good.
I think I'll go with the battle sorc. unless there is something I'm not thinking of..
Wow, after reading (and looking up all the terms) PhaedrusXY's post, It really seems bard would be a good choice. This works splendidly because my character is a bard as well so I can keep my concept. Only thing is, it doesn't seem to be too high in the AC department (or am I missing something?), so maybe I'll mix some of the elements in PhaedrusXY's build with ChristopherGroves' build. Thanks guys, this has really helped.
Well, it could wear armor and even a shield, thanks to bards being able to cast in light armor and the ASF reduction of Spellsword. So I don't see how it would be lacking in the AC department. Cast Alter Self for a decent base natural armor form like troglodyte (or better outside of core), add an enhancement to that via the magic necklace, and you should be good to go.
Heh, I guess what I'm getting at is I want the highest AC and saves possible while staying out of heavier armor and not casting divine spells due to concept. So, it wasn't that the build was lacking in AC, it was just me wanting to have a really big AC or at least higher than what just that was granting me.
I think I'm going to be taking out 2 levels of sacred exorcist to put in two levels of swordsage so I can grab that AC bonus but, I'm only going to be able to cast spells up to 7th level (she's a cohort so max level is 18 unless we go epic, which I doubt will happen)... Is this a particularly stupid move?
Elf Paragon 3/Fighter 1/Elven Generalist Wizard 2/Spellsword 1
Leaves you ready to jump into Abjurant Champion at 8. If you take the Fighter Feat variant from UA, she has 3 bonus fighter feats (though, one is from a shorter list). She could fight in 10% ASF armor with no prob. And, that's 5th level casting, so she has 3rd level spells (she's only 1 level behind sorcerors, and 2 behind most wizards). BAB is 5 (same as rogue/priest).
If you go with five levels of Abjurant Champ and then 8 of EK Afterward, you get a BAB of 18 and a final Caster level of 17(18).
The only really 'suck' part of this build is Reflex, which will be attrocious. You can make up for it with a decent dex and a Weasel familiar. I personally like the Oversized TWF tree for this build, so you can dual wield longswords. You'd be a bladesinger...only better. Combine with Arcane strike for disgusting damage capability. Going TWF also has the added benefit of forcing you to focus on Dex, thereby helping with the really poor reflex save.
EDIT-I take that last bit back...Elf Paragon has Ref as a high bonus, so it won't be as bad off as I thought. I'm so used to Human Paragon being will, I had the calculation screwed up in my head.
I think I'm going to be taking out 2 levels of sacred exorcist to put in two levels of swordsage so I can grab that AC bonus but, I'm only going to be able to cast spells up to 7th level (she's a cohort so max level is 18 unless we go epic, which I doubt will happen)... Is this a particularly stupid move?
Getting spells two levels earlier is worth more than a bit of AC usually, since you can use the spells you gain to buff your AC and also other things. However, I'm not that versed in ToB, and I do understand that you'd have a decent initiator level by dipping like this, due to other classes adding 1/2 their levels to it.
The builds I posted are geared more towards being able to cast in fairly heavy armor, and getting Channel Spell from Spellsword 5, while still getting access to higher level spells. If you're not interested in the Spellsword stuff, another build might suit you better.
Hmm... if the DM will let you cheese the entry, you might consider Shadowcraft Mage 3. With Earth Spell +Metamagic School Focus, despite being a cohort her spellcasting could actually emulate spells equal to what an equal leveled PC can cast. It is feat intensive, and would be hard to pull off as a gish, though. Maybe use Beguiler as an entry? They can cast spells in light armor, right? That's probably going to stray pretty far from being melee focused with some arcane magic, though. I don't know how to get into SCM as a bard, since I don't know any Shadow Spells on the bard's spell list at all. It would be interesting if you could do it, though...
The builds I posted are geared more towards being able to cast in fairly heavy armor, and getting Channel Spell from Spellsword 5, while still getting access to higher level spells. If you're not interested in the Spellsword stuff, another build might suit you better.
Abjurant Champ 5 + Luminous Armor and Shield already get's you 10 Armor bonus and 9 Shield bonus, the equivalent of +2 Full Plate and +5 Tower Shield (and you get your full dex bonus, and it's 'free'), without having to take the two levels of SS 5 that don't progress casting. Smiting Spell and Spellstoring weapons can cover the rest of the benefit.
You do lose out on an extra fighter feat though.
Abjurant Champ 5 + Luminous Armor and Shield already get's you 10 Armor bonus and 9 Shield bonus, the equivalent of +2 Full Plate and +5 Tower Shield (and you get your full dex bonus, and it's 'free'), without having to take the two levels of SS 5 that don't progress casting. Smiting Spell and Spellstoring weapons can cover the rest of the benefit.
You do lose out on an extra fighter feat though.
I think you're going to be down more feats than that, if you include prereq costs. Also, you can do crazy things like cast personal spells on other people (or center an AMF on the enemy mage :P ) with Spellsword's Channeling, which you can't do with most other similiar abilities.
I also posted a sublime chord/spellsword build which includes Abjurant Champion, so you can in fact do both. It is just very feat intensive.
I'm not really advocating either, just trying to demonstrate what the builds I posted can do. Of course, most of their casting power comes in later than a standard gishes, which is bad for a cohort. I don't think a gish is a great cohort idea, anyway.
I think you're going to be down more feats than that, if you include prereq costs. Also, you can do crazy things like cast personal spells on other people (or center an AMF on the enemy mage ) with Spellsword's Channeling, which you can't do with most other similiar abilities.
Abj Champ only has combat casting as a required feat. The build I posted only has Combat Casting as a required feat. But I don't think you were intending that first sentence to compare your build with mine, I think it was directed at the sacred exorcist stuff, which is signifigantly more feat intensive, aye.
I tend to forget about that application of Spell channeling ever since my DM hit me in the head with a hammer the first time I tried it.
/rant
Just don't grab that spell and expect to waltz in the next session and inform your DM that you are casting it....it's probably not going to go over quite like that.
And apparently he forgot to add that he's not allowing Tome of Battle after I brought it up... oh wellI'm going to be doing PhaedrusXY's build with the Abjurant Champion and adding the pally levels to it. Thanks for the help guys
I just want to point out (because it is a pet peeve of mine even though this is the Char Op boards) that you really shouldn't just count on ideas like "Oh yeah plus 10 AC from Greater Luminous Armor!" If the character isn't going to be roleplayed as basically a saint, then you don't get that spell. Also, you lose strength when the spell goes away (and I hate the argument that a devoted, righteous saintly character would just nullify the strength loss with some sort of restoration...it just goes against the whole premise of those spells and the sacrifice a righteous character makes to cast one.) Also, you shine like daylight with Greater Luminous Armor on.....seriously....you're going to walk around 24 hours a day shining like the sun? Spontaneous casters can't take the spell either.
/rant
Just don't grab that spell and expect to waltz in the next session and inform your DM that you are casting it....it's probably not going to go over quite like that.
That's a very cliche'd look at 'good' as an alignment. Han Solo and Batman are both good aligned characters, both would qualify for taking the spell, and I guarantee you that both would use a potion of restoration or whatever afterward. The sacrifice in the case of Luminous Armor is temporary anyway, so it's still a weakness (should you get dispelled middle of the fight).
Besides, it's not a spell that you use every day. You use Greater Mage Armor most days, which (with all the other AC boosts) is more than enough to cover your butt in a typical fight. You only whip out the Luminous or Greater Luminous for those BBEG fights where you may need it, and unless your DM is a complete ass, slaying the vampire lord or red dragon is a 'good' enough act that noone is going to question your ability to use it.
That's a very cliche'd look at 'good' as an alignment. Han Solo and Batman are both good aligned characters, both would qualify for taking the spell, and I guarantee you that both would use a potion of restoration or whatever afterward. The sacrifice in the case of Luminous Armor is temporary anyway, so it's still a weakness (should you get dispelled middle of the fight).
Besides, it's not a spell that you use every day. You use Greater Mage Armor most days, which (with all the other AC boosts) is more than enough to cover your butt in a typical fight. You only whip out the Luminous or Greater Luminous for those BBEG fights where you may need it, and unless your DM is a complete ass, slaying the vampire lord or red dragon is a 'good' enough act that noone is going to question your ability to use it.
I'm glad we agree that you would not walk around all day in GLA. That's really all I was getting at. I see it discussed at times on the board as though it is basically a permanent addition to one's AC...which is just crazy. As for Batman and Han Solo, I'm not sure they would qualify for the spell, the text literally says, "For those willing to utterly devote themselves to the cause of good..." and "These spells require a great sacrifice from the caster..." I guess if chugging a pot of restoration when the spell ends is great sacrifice...I just don't see it though. But this is a case of going into the land of DM fiats and discretion. So to each their own.
Also, slaying a BBEG is not a good act in itself, it's the motivations behind it that make it a good act....seriously, read the section in BoED on "being good". It's actually a great read on the nature of alignment and opens up some cool philosophical questions. (Hence the mature content tag on the book)
"For those willing to utterly devote themselves to the cause of good..."
Batman doesn't qualify? Spent his entire life and most of his fortune trying to save his city from the vice grip of crime? Risks his life nightly to save ungrateful and unhelpful people? I really think he qualifies.
While the flavor text of sanctified magic says 'requires great sacrifice', the actual lost on the part of the Luminous armor spells is just 1d2 or 1d3 strength damage. At WORST it's a couple days rest afterward. So even if your DM doesn't allow you to quaff a potion at the end of the fight, you can always say, "After vanquishing the great evil and saving the town/world/et al, the heroes retire back to the monastery for a well-earned rest of a few days." and it's both thematically and mechanically correct.
As for Batman, you are talking about a person driven by anger and vengeance, for good causes, yes. Does he become that which he fights against at points? Also yes. It's an interesting moral grey area that is especially relevant to adventurers. I do understand that most people who play aren't interested in the philosophy beyond "I must be good because I kill bad things." However, if your campaign doesn't really focus on the ideals of good and bad, maybe you shouldn't be using Sanctified stuff....or maybe you just use it and who cares. Fine, as I said in my original comment, I just wouldn't expect to bring it to the table and have the DM be hunky dory with the whole idea without a conversation.
Specifically though, you are incorrect with the assumption that simply fighting a bad guy is a good act. Motivation is the difference between all of the alignments in your "prototypical situation". It's the motivation that makes the role playing part of RPG fun to play. So it is a little bit relevant....maybe not on these boards though : ) In which case I apologize for spending multiple posts talking about something "non-number related".
