This is a character that will be played from level 1 up. Multiclass xp penalties are in effect. Character is not evil. More of true Neutral (rebuking) with some evil tendancies.
I want a generalist spell type who has access to as many spells as possible, while at the same time having a necromancer flavor. Think We Jas. General spells is the primary goal, followed by necromancy. He will control a lot of undead minions on an ongoing basis. If he were a diety, he would be a diety of general spells and undead.
I realize the theurge type builds give up a lot vertically. I'm not questioning the lack of high level spells. However, I do want as many (quantity) spells (divine and arcane) as I can get.
I'm trying to get as efficient as possible within those constraints.
Here's my basic idea (not in the exact order):
Cleric 2, Archivist 3, Wiz 3, True necromancer & Mystic Theurge to flesh out the build. The theurge/TN will enhance Archivist, not Cleric on the divine side. Obviously this isn't the most optimized build.
The only reason I'm taking any cleric is for the TN prereq's (Death domain, rebuking). Otherwise I'd go Archivist 3, Wiz 3, then prc's. I have to take 2 (rather than 1) in Cleric (or Cloistered Cleric) to avoid multiclass penalties - unless there is a good no LA race that has Cleric as their favored race.
Is there a slighly more efficient way to do this. Like maybe Archivist 3, Wiz 3, some other 1 level dip into a prestige class to gain the death domain and rebuking, then finish off with TN/MT?
I definitely want Wiz and Archivist, then theurge type. I don't want Dread Necro for the arcane part of the build (I want the full Wiz spell list). I want TN for the continued rebuking/controlling advancement.
Is there any trick that would allow me to qualify for TN without CL?
No psionics, no alternate systems besides UA (except possibly Tome of Magic).
Books I have access to are listed in my sig. I'm also soon going to add Tome of Magic and Races of the Dragon.
For example, maybe I could go CL1, Archivist2, Wiz2, and a prc level dip or two with full casting to qualify into the theurge type prc's without losing too many spell levels?
Right now I'm looking at CL2, ARCH3, Wiz3 which is a LOT of wasted spell levels (esp CL2). The CL spell levels won't stack with Archivist, so those are completely wasted. I have no problem going Arch3, WIZ 3 into MT/TN. The death domain + rebuke req with TN is causing me the problems.
Even CL1, ARCH 2, Wiz 2, Prc for Arch 1, prc for Wiz 1 would be a better combo than CL2, ARCH 3, Wiz3.
Human Wizard 3/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 2/True Necromancer 14, taking Southern Magician and Spell Focus (Necromancy) @ 1st would get you 9th-level Arcane and 8th-level Divine spellcasting (Wiz 17 and Clr 15, respectively) and everything True Necromancer gives. It's not a good build, per se, but it's at least workable @ 20th (unlike virtually any other TN build save Xak's). You rebuke as a 19th-level Cleric as well, which again isn't good but at least workable with the right items.
Without Southern Magician, the best you'd be able to pull would be something like Wizard 3/Cleric 3/True Necromancer 14, which could give you 8th-level Arcane spells and 8th-level Divine spells.
If you are absolutely set on Archivst over Cleric for spellcasting, Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Sacred Exorcist 1 (reflavored for a neutral alignment)/Mystic Theurge 3/Contemplative 1/True Necromancer 9 is about the best you'll be able to do. That's 8th-level Arcane spells and 7th-level Divine spells, or vice versa depending on which you decide to put Sacred Exorcist and Contemplative towards.
I'm pretty set on Archivist (so far), because the massive amount of Divine spells (druid, cleric, etc.). Plus Intelligence being the primary stat. It feels right for a spell completist type build.
I looked at southern magician here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rp/20040630a
But it sounds like it wouldn't work based on the ask wizards reply on that topic:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080606a
Your third build is about where it looks like I might land, and should be workable. Far from optimized, but fits the flavor perfectly. Other options are very welcome.
I definitely don't want to put any more into Cleric than I absolutely have to. I'm trying to find a prc that has Cleric or Wiz spell progression 1 level + death domain + grants rebuke. I'm suprised I haven't found a prc that grants rebuke + a domain with a 1 or 2 level dip along with full spell progression during the dip.
If I were somehow able to find a prc with full rebuke + arcane/cleric theurge (other than TN), that would solve it as well.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=632562
Archivists can already cast all the Cleric spells, given that they've been set to writing. Cloistered Cleric (UA) 1 gets you the Turn/Rebuke if that's your thing. An Archivist dipping into another casting class for spell access is akin to taking a 3rd Fighter level in order to boost your BAB. It does what you set out to do, but there are much better ways to do it.
I agree on the divine side. But the biggest goal here is to create a spell caster who can cast just about all spells including divine and arcane. I'm looking for the ability to cast like 95% of all spells instead of say 70%. The secondary goal is the leaning toward the undead "dark-side" while remaining neutral. Granted, I fully understand the lagging spell level progression power is far from optimal. But from a flavor standpoint, this accomplishes the goal (actually being able to cast just about every spell - from a book). I am open to any other options 'tho.
I grabbed this from another post, which I'm going to look more closely at:
"Archivist 2/Wizard 1 or Wizard 2/Archivist 1 can qualify for Mystic Theurge as long as they take the Improved Sigil (Krau) from Races of Destiny, page 153. Best of all, uurkraus don't use wis for figuring out bonus spells per day, they use dex. Therefore, no MAD, you only need three stats (Int, Dex, Con). Krau's original sigil ability also helps with the loss of caster levels (+1 to caster level - max value equal to character level)."
If that actually works, then I could go CL CLeric 1, Archivist 1, Wiz 2, MT & TN the rest of the way. or CCL1, ARCH2, Wiz 1, MT&TN the rest of the way. I'd then take practiced spellcaster as needed (for better CL) and lose much less spell capability while retaining substantial turn/rebuke ability.
Now, is it possible that the authors meant to print a feat which does nothing useful? Sure. Radiant Fire exists, after all. There's still the issue that Ask Wizards/the Sage isn't errata. It's just suggestions, and in this case the suggestion is retarded.
The Improved Sigil (Krau) trick has the same issues that any other "treat a spell as being higher level than it is" trick when using it to qualify for a PrC, so ask your DM first.
The Ask Wizards response is made of fail. According to them, the feat does absolutely nothing. It doesn't even give you the effects the feat lists as examples, because according to them it's not a divine spell until after it's cast. This means that in order to ignore ASF, you first have to overcome said ASF! The only thing you could get is the "different effects if the divine version is different" ability, which is a worthless effect.
Now, is it possible that the authors meant to print a feat which does nothing useful? Sure. Radiant Fire exists, after all. There's still the issue that Ask Wizards/the Sage isn't errata. It's just suggestions, and in this case the suggestion is retarded.
The Improved Sigil (Krau) trick has the same issues that any other "treat a spell as being higher level than it is" trick when using it to qualify for a PrC, so ask your DM first.
Thanks for the info - I'll look at that more closely as well. Agreed about the Ask Wizards stuff not always being right.
Any other early entry tricks, or class/prc combos out there that will do what I want?
Dread Necromancers can use the Earth Spell/Versatile Spellcaster trick, provided you have flaws available. That could get you DN 1/Archivist 3/MT X, and into True Necromancer from there. I can't think of any absolutely solid early-entry tricks for Wizard, though.
I'm looking at some of the other feat combo's as well at the moment.
The Improved Sigil (Krau) trick has the same issues that any other "treat a spell as being higher level than it is" trick when using it to qualify for a PrC, so ask your DM first.
I reread the Improved Sigil (Krau), and I am pretty convinced that it actually works. If you read the entire feat entry (especially the part about gaining 3rd class level), it essentially indicates that you can apply it to 1st level spells that are now treated as 2nd level (even if you otherwise cannot cast 2nd level spells). If it had caster level prereq's to gain the feat, or if they hadn't provided that 3rd class level swap example, I would question it. But it seems pretty clear that the intent is to allow you to cast 1st level spell(s) as second level spells, but without being more complicated to cast that a 1st level spell. The summary of the feat definitely points toward being able to actually cast a spell higher than you would otherwise normally be able to cast.
Heighten as a comparison, states the the heightened spell is as difficult to cast as the higher level spell, which would rule out the ability to actually cast a the heightened spell as if it were a spell level higher than you would normally be able to cast.
I reread the Improved Sigil (Krau), and I am pretty convinced that it actually works. If you read the entire feat entry (especially the part about gaining 3rd class level), it essentially indicates that you can apply it to 1st level spells that are now treated as 2nd level (even if you otherwise cannot cast 2nd level spells). If it had caster level prereq's to gain the feat, or if they hadn't provided that 3rd class level swap example, I would question it. But it seems pretty clear that the intent is to allow you to cast 1st level spell(s) as second level spells, but without being more complicated to cast that a 1st level spell. The summary of the feat definitely points toward being able to actually cast a spell higher than you would otherwise normally be able to cast.
Heighten as a comparison, states the the heightened spell is as difficult to cast as the higher level spell, which would rule out the ability to actually cast a the heightened spell as if it were a spell level higher than you would normally be able to cast.
The issue isn't with whether it allows you to cast a higher-level spell. The issue some people have is whether or not that qualifies as "able to cast X level spells". Some argue that you need to have actual access to spells of that level, others say that being able to cast a spell of that level, regardless of how it got there, is enough. There's some merit to both sides of the discussion, which is why I said it's an "ask your DM" thing.
The issue isn't with whether it allows you to cast a higher-level spell. The issue some people have is whether or not that qualifies as "able to cast X level spells". Some argue that you need to have actual access to spells of that level, others say that being able to cast a spell of that level, regardless of how it got there, is enough. There's some merit to both sides of the discussion, which is why I said it's an "ask your DM" thing.
Agree with you on the ask the DM thing... unfortunately I'm the one making the call
Brainstorming outloud. I can see both sides of the argument - all the early entries have some issue or another. After rolling it around and reading all I could find (a lot) my call would be a 1st level spell cast in all ways as a 2nd level spell works (primarily because the heighten spell states that the heightened spell is as difficult to cast as the new raised level - without that sentence then I wouldn't allow Heighten or the Krau trick to work).
That's sort of the key to the Heighten... Wotc put that sentence in there to basically state that heighten is only allowed to go as high as your highest spell level known. That (IMO) + the rest of the heighten text also means the heightened spell is now a 2nd level spell in all ways. I can see the arguments from the other side, but I'm comfortable at this point due to that sentence along with the context of the feat overall. I don't believe the developers intended Heighten or PA to get in early, but that's another story. Illumian on the other hand - perhaps.
I've also come to the conclusion that Precocious Apprentice with Heighten meets the prereq's for a CL3, WIZ 1 type entry (or perhaps even WIZ3/CL1 depending on how PA is read). Precocious Apprentice by itself did not, and Heighten by itself did not. But RAW when you lose the benefit of PA, then Heighten takes over by allowing you to fill the 2nd level slot with a heightened 1st level spell. Heighten also eliminates the argument for spell failure normally attached to PA as a qualifier.
Thanks for the help.