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Help with bizarre archer build, please!

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
jarrad
Jun 29, 2009 6:28:25 Hi folks, long time no see!

Well, I'm stumped. I'm trying to help somebody belatedly come up with a good archer/sneaker/sniper concept and the morass of house-rules is confusing the bejeezus out of me. I don't have the time for rooting through sourcebooks and whatnot that I used to, so I'm desperately appealing for assistance with some ideas.

The problem is that the person in question already has four levels and they're not levels I would have chosen; at least not in that order. I'm certain something can be made of them, but I'm not sure what.

Another complicating issue is that the gaming group in question (to which I do not belong, incidentally) is using the "gestalt" class rules from, I think, Unearthed Arcana. That opens up possibilities, but far too many for me to judge between them.

I have gone through a lot of historical threads on here, including the Ultimate Archer Handbook thread, the Ranger's Handbook, the Swift Hunter's Handbook, the HailOfArrows archer build and KSB Snow Owl's archer builds

Just to let you know I've done my research and that I *still* don't know what's best to advise!

Setting and source material

Here's the story so far. The setting is mostly-Eberron. The material being used is the "Complete [X]" series, but we can't count for sure on anything else; I'll update when I get definitive answers about books. Magical items are controlled by DM fiat: most things up to about a +2 equivalent are available, but anything more than that involves an awful lot of hoop-jumping. Spell Compendium is in play, but I believe individual spells are being rules out by the DM. As far as I know, there's no Faerun material in play.

Character details

The character is an elf. Stats are:

STR 16
DEX 18
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA 12

So, not a bad array. There's no need to go down the Wis-to-hit route, obviously, and everything's good enough to keep him competitive in a general sense. The concept is a sneaky, good-at-spotting character that does damage at range. This is where is all starts to get weird and complicated...

Character levels are Ranger 1 / Scout 3.

Feats are:

1st - Point Blank Shot
3rd - Quick Reconnoiter (I know, but there's nothing I can do about it)

Now for the weirdness. Due to the gestalt character rules they're using, the character is *also* a Transmuter 4. I don't as yet know the barred schools, but will report back when I do.

The way that gestalt classes are being run is just this: take all class features from both classes; use the best saves, hit dice, BAB and number of skill points; all skills from both classes are class skills; multiclassing is allowed (obviously) within the gestalt; the DM doesn't know yet how he's going to handle prestige class mashups - he'll probably allow everything through until someone tries to pull something really cheesy (which they won't - this group doesn't optimise).

Additional house rule: no experience point penalties are being imposed for level differences between Ranger and Scout because they "fit the flavour of the character". Anything that the DM rules doesn't "fit" will probably either get the ban-hammer or start taking the XP penalty.

They've only just introduced the gestalt-character aspect via a DM plot-doohickey, and as such the character has suddenly gained the four levels of Transmuter out of nowhere.

Can you see why I'm having trouble? Not only has there been a weird beginning, but there are almost too many options available for me to know which are the best for pulling the character out of the mire, which is why I'm bringing my problem to the experts!

Equipment

As it stands, the character has:

+1 Longsword
+1 Chain shirt
Efficient quiver (quiver of Ehlonna)
Handy Haversack
Wand of Magic missile (25 charges)
50 scrolls (various) from a now-deceased party Wizard
About 800 GP in cash.

Obviously, that +1 chain shirt is likely to get ditched now the character has arcane spellcasting.

Brief

Damage, and lots of it, whilst also doing some filling-in of generic arcane caster duties. Anything too cheesy is likely to be summarily vetoed by the DM. Don't suggest any caster-level shenanigans with gestalt prestige classes, because I'm certain that'll get the DM cosh straight away.

My initial thoughts are - what with the full Wizard (Transmuter, anyway) casting for free - that the character is going to be best off going down the gish-archer route.

I'm really looking for help with what this character's optimal direction is going to be. Specifics about spells would be helpful. I doubt very much that this campaign will see anyone going above 10th-12th level, and the build has to remain playable throughout.

So, there we have it. I know it's a weird homebrew setup, but does anyone feel up to helping me with this?

Thanks in advance guys!
#2
jarrad
Jun 29, 2009 8:43:10 More info on sources:

Allowed...

All standard Eberron sources (Players' Guide, Races of, etc.)
The "Complete" Series (Arcane, Mage, Divine, etc.), possibly excepting Complete Champion
Spell Compendium
Plus all core material, naturally

Denied...

Magic Item Compendium
Dragon Magazine material
Draconomicon
Pretty much everything else

Eberron deities and pantheons are in play.

Hope that helps - I'm looking forward to suggestions. My initial instinct is to throw my hands up and suggest a Swift Hunter build with the Transmuter levels providing some toys, but I'm sure there's something a bit cleverer that can be done, if only I could see it! :D
#3
jarrad
Jun 29, 2009 8:50:18 Another house rule:

Fractional BAB is being allowed; this is more promising than it looked at first!
#4
lormador
Jun 29, 2009 9:41:03 Bizarre elven magical archer? Full wizard casting on one side? Why not 2 levels of Arcane Archer, then.

That Intelligence score kind of hurts.

Someone is going to say Swiftblade.
#5
Wyvernhand
Jun 29, 2009 21:47:01 Figure out how to get the [Outsider] type (some elves qualify with Otherworldly, right?), and then Polymorph yourself (Transmuter = Polymorph!) into an Arrow Demon (MMIV). Then duel wield bows like Arrow Demons do, and pepper your foe with dozens of arrows per round!

Other than that, can you PrC on your wizard side? Cause taking levels in Unseen Seer would be pretty much amazing. It adds to you skill versitility, and nets you the tasty tasty Hunter's Eye spell on your wizard side (normally a Ranger spell).

BTW, I'm assuming you are taking Swift Hunter at 6? Is that right?
#6
lormador
Jun 29, 2009 21:49:25 Yeah, but Otherworldly is only available at 1st level.

Note: a Psychic Reformation does make this (and many other things) possible.
#7
jarrad
Jul 01, 2009 8:49:46 There's no Psionic material being used in the main, although Greater Manyshot will be allowed. Thanks for the Unseen Seer suggestion; that's brilliant. I was casting about for a way to get certain Ranger spells onto the Wizard spell list... does anyone know of other ways to do that?

Prestige classing on the Wizard side is entirely possible.

Swift Hunter will be going into the mix as soon as possible. Based on advice so far, here's what I'm thinking...

First, the Scout/Ranger portion of the build, without reference to spellcasting:

[1] Ranger 1 Favoured enemy (?), wild empathy Feats: Point Blank Shot, Track (ranger bonus)
[2] Scout 1 Skirmish +1d6, trapfinding
[3] Scout 2 Battle fortitude +1, uncanny dodge Feat: Quick Reconnoiter
[4] Scout 3 Fast movement +10 ft., skirmish (+1d6, +1 AC), trackless step
[5] Ranger 2 Combat style (archery) Feat: Rapid Shot (ranger bonus) [*]
[6] Ranger 3 Feats : Swift Hunter, Endurance (Ranger bonus)
[7] Ranger 4 ACF: Arcane Hunter (if allowed)
[8] Ranger 5 2nd favoured enemy (undead, if he doesn't already have it; constructs if he does)
[9] Ranger 6 Feats: Manyshot (Ranger bonus), Greater Manyshot
[10] Scout 4 Feat: Improved Skirmish (Scout bonus)

Beyond this, probably prestige classes or straight Ranger.

And for spellcasting...

[1] Transmuter 1
[2] Transmuter 2
[3] Transmuter 3
[4] Transmuter 4
[5] Transmuter 5 Feat: Spell Focus [Transmutation] (Wizard bonus)
[6] Unseen Seer 1 +1d6 bonus damage to Skirmish ability
[7] Unseen Seer 2 Silent Spell (Unseen Seer bonus feat), Advanced Learning (hunter's eye or find the gap)
[8] Master Specialist 1 Feat: Skill Focus [Spellcraft] (Master Specialist bonus)
[9] Master Specialist 2 Expanded spellbook (hunter's mercy or arrow storm)
[10] Mystic Theurge 1 (Wizard and Ranger)
[11] Mystic Theurge 2 (Wizard and Ranger)

Mystic Theurge all the way, never look back... Ranger spellcasting will improve by leaps and bounds, assuming the campaign ever gets that far.

What do y'all think?
#8
shockwave33
Jul 01, 2009 9:21:57 arcan archer comes to mind, also arcane sniper.
#9
jarrad
Jul 01, 2009 10:42:29 I'm not familiar with "arcane sniper", which means it probably isn't in one of the listed "allowed" sourcebooks. Where's it from and what does it do? Arcane Archer is nice, but what with the restrictions imposed by the first four levels it doesn't seem to stack up against completing the Ranger/Scout/Swift Hunter combo by level 10.
#10
j2.504
Jul 01, 2009 14:36:57 If you wind up planning on using the Mystic Theurge, you would probably benefit more from Arcane Hierophant (Races of the Wild) from the Race series if that is allowed. (Arcane Heirophant is like Mystic Theurge, but built more for Druid or Ranger plus Arcane caster, and offers really big improvements for your animal companion/familiar (combining the two into one powerful/intelligent creature), better HD, better class features, etc. than Mystic Theurge). It may/or may not require a level of wildrunner (an elven prc granting +10 to speed) to qualify depending on how much Ranger you take. If you haven't seen them, the Race series is similar to the Complete series (straight-forward, no alternate systems), but built around race instead of class. Races of the Wild is all about Elves and their type, bow users, hunters, etc. which should fit nicely with your character.

Also, you might consider Arcane Trickster (DMG) in place of/alongside Unseen Seer depending on your tastes, 'tho Unseen Seer is usually preferred (primarily for it's easier entry I believe).
#11
tonymitsu
Jul 01, 2009 20:38:40
[7] Ranger 4 ACF: Arcane Hunter (if allowed)

Arcane Hunter has to be taken at first level in place of your first favored enemy. You are on the right track with wanting very broad categories of favored enemies, but rebuilding will be required.
Also, a two level dip into Stalker of Kharash from Book of Exalted Deeds not only continues to advance ranger casting, but will net you Favored Enemy: Evil, (the only problem is it requires the icky Favored among the Companions feat)

As a Swift Hunter, your main benefit is to be able to apply skirmish damage to your favored enemies, even if they are normally immune to precision damage.

The five categories of enemies that are normally immune are (in alphabetical order) constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and undead.

Bring up to your DM the Truedeath and Demolition weapon crystals from Magic Item Compendium. They allow undead and constructs to be subject to sneak attacks so most DM's will allow them to apply other precision damage (skirmish) as well.

And don't forget the advice from the archer's handbook.
As an archer with Greater Manyshot, you are going to be doing lots of damage over many attacks, so you must be able to defeat damage reduction. This means cold iron arrows at level 7, silver arrows at level 10 or 12, and adamantine by the mid to late teens.

I was casting about for a way to get certain Ranger spells onto the Wizard spell list... does anyone know of other ways to do that?

Ranger to Wizard? Not sure.
Sword of the Arcane Order feat will allow you to go the other way though; prepare wizard spells in your ranger slots (either your own or from a borrowed spellbook).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jarrad Jun 29, 2009 6:28:25	Hi folks, long time no see! Well, I'm stumped. I'm trying to help somebody belatedly come up with a good archer/sneaker/sniper concept and the morass of house-rules is confusing the bejeezus out of me. I don't have the time for rooting through sourcebooks and whatnot that I used to, so I'm desperately appealing for assistance with some ideas. The problem is that the person in question already has four levels and they're not levels I would have chosen; at least not in that order. I'm certain something can be made of them, but I'm not sure what. Another complicating issue is that the gaming group in question (to which I do not belong, incidentally) is using the "gestalt" class rules from, I think, Unearthed Arcana. That opens up possibilities, but far too many for me to judge between them. I have gone through a lot of historical threads on here, including the Ultimate Archer Handbook thread, the Ranger's Handbook, the Swift Hunter's Handbook, the HailOfArrows archer build and KSB Snow Owl's archer builds Just to let you know I've done my research and that I still don't know what's best to advise! Setting and source material Here's the story so far. The setting is mostly-Eberron. The material being used is the "Complete [X]" series, but we can't count for sure on anything else; I'll update when I get definitive answers about books. Magical items are controlled by DM fiat: most things up to about a +2 equivalent are available, but anything more than that involves an awful lot of hoop-jumping. Spell Compendium is in play, but I believe individual spells are being rules out by the DM. As far as I know, there's no Faerun material in play. Character details The character is an elf. Stats are: STR 16 DEX 18 CON 14 INT 14 WIS 14 CHA 12 So, not a bad array. There's no need to go down the Wis-to-hit route, obviously, and everything's good enough to keep him competitive in a general sense. The concept is a sneaky, good-at-spotting character that does damage at range. This is where is all starts to get weird and complicated... Character levels are Ranger 1 / Scout 3. Feats are: 1st - Point Blank Shot 3rd - Quick Reconnoiter (I know, but there's nothing I can do about it) Now for the weirdness. Due to the gestalt character rules they're using, the character is also a Transmuter 4. I don't as yet know the barred schools, but will report back when I do. The way that gestalt classes are being run is just this: take all class features from both classes; use the best saves, hit dice, BAB and number of skill points; all skills from both classes are class skills; multiclassing is allowed (obviously) within the gestalt; the DM doesn't know yet how he's going to handle prestige class mashups - he'll probably allow everything through until someone tries to pull something really cheesy (which they won't - this group doesn't optimise). Additional house rule: no experience point penalties are being imposed for level differences between Ranger and Scout because they "fit the flavour of the character". Anything that the DM rules doesn't "fit" will probably either get the ban-hammer or start taking the XP penalty. They've only just introduced the gestalt-character aspect via a DM plot-doohickey, and as such the character has suddenly gained the four levels of Transmuter out of nowhere. Can you see why I'm having trouble? Not only has there been a weird beginning, but there are almost too many options available for me to know which are the best for pulling the character out of the mire, which is why I'm bringing my problem to the experts! Equipment As it stands, the character has: +1 Longsword +1 Chain shirt Efficient quiver (quiver of Ehlonna) Handy Haversack Wand of Magic missile (25 charges) 50 scrolls (various) from a now-deceased party Wizard About 800 GP in cash. Obviously, that +1 chain shirt is likely to get ditched now the character has arcane spellcasting. Brief Damage, and lots of it, whilst also doing some filling-in of generic arcane caster duties. Anything too cheesy is likely to be summarily vetoed by the DM. Don't suggest any caster-level shenanigans with gestalt prestige classes, because I'm certain that'll get the DM cosh straight away. My initial thoughts are - what with the full Wizard (Transmuter, anyway) casting for free - that the character is going to be best off going down the gish-archer route. I'm really looking for help with what this character's optimal direction is going to be. Specifics about spells would be helpful. I doubt very much that this campaign will see anyone going above 10th-12th level, and the build has to remain playable throughout. So, there we have it. I know it's a weird homebrew setup, but does anyone feel up to helping me with this? Thanks in advance guys!
#2 jarrad Jun 29, 2009 8:43:10	More info on sources: Allowed... All standard Eberron sources (Players' Guide, Races of, etc.) The "Complete" Series (Arcane, Mage, Divine, etc.), possibly excepting Complete Champion Spell Compendium Plus all core material, naturally Denied... Magic Item Compendium Dragon Magazine material Draconomicon Pretty much everything else Eberron deities and pantheons are in play. Hope that helps - I'm looking forward to suggestions. My initial instinct is to throw my hands up and suggest a Swift Hunter build with the Transmuter levels providing some toys, but I'm sure there's something a bit cleverer that can be done, if only I could see it! :D
#3 jarrad Jun 29, 2009 8:50:18	Another house rule: Fractional BAB is being allowed; this is more promising than it looked at first!
#4 lormador Jun 29, 2009 9:41:03	Bizarre elven magical archer? Full wizard casting on one side? Why not 2 levels of Arcane Archer, then. That Intelligence score kind of hurts. Someone is going to say Swiftblade.
#5 Wyvernhand Jun 29, 2009 21:47:01	Figure out how to get the [Outsider] type (some elves qualify with Otherworldly, right?), and then Polymorph yourself (Transmuter = Polymorph!) into an Arrow Demon (MMIV). Then duel wield bows like Arrow Demons do, and pepper your foe with dozens of arrows per round! Other than that, can you PrC on your wizard side? Cause taking levels in Unseen Seer would be pretty much amazing. It adds to you skill versitility, and nets you the tasty tasty Hunter's Eye spell on your wizard side (normally a Ranger spell). BTW, I'm assuming you are taking Swift Hunter at 6? Is that right?
#6 lormador Jun 29, 2009 21:49:25	Yeah, but Otherworldly is only available at 1st level. Note: a Psychic Reformation does make this (and many other things) possible.
#7 jarrad Jul 01, 2009 8:49:46	There's no Psionic material being used in the main, although Greater Manyshot will be allowed. Thanks for the Unseen Seer suggestion; that's brilliant. I was casting about for a way to get certain Ranger spells onto the Wizard spell list... does anyone know of other ways to do that? Prestige classing on the Wizard side is entirely possible. Swift Hunter will be going into the mix as soon as possible. Based on advice so far, here's what I'm thinking... First, the Scout/Ranger portion of the build, without reference to spellcasting: [1] Ranger 1 Favoured enemy (?), wild empathy Feats: Point Blank Shot, Track (ranger bonus) [2] Scout 1 Skirmish +1d6, trapfinding [3] Scout 2 Battle fortitude +1, uncanny dodge Feat: Quick Reconnoiter [4] Scout 3 Fast movement +10 ft., skirmish (+1d6, +1 AC), trackless step [5] Ranger 2 Combat style (archery) Feat: Rapid Shot (ranger bonus) [] [6] Ranger 3 Feats : Swift Hunter, Endurance (Ranger bonus) [7] Ranger 4 ACF: Arcane Hunter (if allowed) [8] Ranger 5 2nd favoured enemy (undead, if he doesn't already have it; constructs if he does) [9] Ranger 6 Feats: Manyshot (Ranger bonus), Greater Manyshot [10] Scout 4 Feat: Improved Skirmish (Scout bonus) Beyond this, probably prestige classes or straight Ranger. And for spellcasting... [1] Transmuter 1 [2] Transmuter 2 [3] Transmuter 3 [4] Transmuter 4 [5] Transmuter 5 Feat: Spell Focus [Transmutation] (Wizard bonus) [6] Unseen Seer 1 +1d6 bonus damage to Skirmish ability [7] Unseen Seer 2 Silent Spell (Unseen Seer bonus feat), Advanced Learning (hunter's eye* or find the gap) [8] Master Specialist 1 Feat: Skill Focus [Spellcraft] (Master Specialist bonus) [9] Master Specialist 2 Expanded spellbook (hunter's mercy or arrow storm) [10] Mystic Theurge 1 (Wizard and Ranger) [11] Mystic Theurge 2 (Wizard and Ranger) Mystic Theurge all the way, never look back... Ranger spellcasting will improve by leaps and bounds, assuming the campaign ever gets that far. What do y'all think?
#8 shockwave33 Jul 01, 2009 9:21:57	arcan archer comes to mind, also arcane sniper.
#9 jarrad Jul 01, 2009 10:42:29	I'm not familiar with "arcane sniper", which means it probably isn't in one of the listed "allowed" sourcebooks. Where's it from and what does it do? Arcane Archer is nice, but what with the restrictions imposed by the first four levels it doesn't seem to stack up against completing the Ranger/Scout/Swift Hunter combo by level 10.
#10 j2.504 Jul 01, 2009 14:36:57	If you wind up planning on using the Mystic Theurge, you would probably benefit more from Arcane Hierophant (Races of the Wild) from the Race series if that is allowed. (Arcane Heirophant is like Mystic Theurge, but built more for Druid or Ranger plus Arcane caster, and offers really big improvements for your animal companion/familiar (combining the two into one powerful/intelligent creature), better HD, better class features, etc. than Mystic Theurge). It may/or may not require a level of wildrunner (an elven prc granting +10 to speed) to qualify depending on how much Ranger you take. If you haven't seen them, the Race series is similar to the Complete series (straight-forward, no alternate systems), but built around race instead of class. Races of the Wild is all about Elves and their type, bow users, hunters, etc. which should fit nicely with your character. Also, you might consider Arcane Trickster (DMG) in place of/alongside Unseen Seer depending on your tastes, 'tho Unseen Seer is usually preferred (primarily for it's easier entry I believe).
#11 tonymitsu Jul 01, 2009 20:38:40	[7] Ranger 4 ACF: Arcane Hunter (if allowed) Arcane Hunter has to be taken at first level in place of your first favored enemy. You are on the right track with wanting very broad categories of favored enemies, but rebuilding will be required. Also, a two level dip into Stalker of Kharash from Book of Exalted Deeds not only continues to advance ranger casting, but will net you Favored Enemy: Evil, (the only problem is it requires the icky Favored among the Companions feat) As a Swift Hunter, your main benefit is to be able to apply skirmish damage to your favored enemies, even if they are normally immune to precision damage. The five categories of enemies that are normally immune are (in alphabetical order) constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and undead. Bring up to your DM the Truedeath and Demolition weapon crystals from Magic Item Compendium. They allow undead and constructs to be subject to sneak attacks so most DM's will allow them to apply other precision damage (skirmish) as well. And don't forget the advice from the archer's handbook. As an archer with Greater Manyshot, you are going to be doing lots of damage over many attacks, so you must be able to defeat damage reduction. This means cold iron arrows at level 7, silver arrows at level 10 or 12, and adamantine by the mid to late teens. I was casting about for a way to get certain Ranger spells onto the Wizard spell list... does anyone know of other ways to do that? Ranger to Wizard? Not sure. Sword of the Arcane Order feat will allow you to go the other way though; prepare wizard spells in your ranger slots (either your own or from a borrowed spellbook).