This was posted over at Brilliantgameologists before I found this great spot. Apologies to those who have seen it already.
I would like some feedback on this build. Going for a Glass Cannon build around the idea of charging to deal lots of damage. The group has lots of buffer types and needs the muscle and frontliner for them to support. The game is starting at level 4 and likely going to continue into the high teens or even all the way to 20th.
Books: Core + UA + PHB2 + All Complete Series + ECS + XPH
Race: Half-orc
32 point build (with racial mods): Str 20, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 6
Lion Totem Barb 1 / Ftr 6 / EWM 1 / Ftr +2 / Half-orc Paragon 3 / Orc Paragon 3 / Ftr +4
Feats
1: Power Attack
F1: Dodge
3: EWP Bastard Sword
F2: WF Bastard Sword
F4: Improved Sunder
6: Leap Attack
F6: Combat Brute
9: Improved Bull Rush
F8: Shock Trooper
12: Mobility
15: Elusive Target
18: ??
F10: ??
F12: ??
Basically, I went with the Paragon classes for the Str boost to make the most of the EWM Uncanny Blow. The levels of fighter are for the feats to get the most of the Shock Trooper-Combat Brute-Elusive Target combo. I was aiming for lots of Power Attacking Charging damage.
Could you all give me some suggestions about the feats/classes, the order they are taken, what to do with the last 3 feats (or levels since I don't really need the fighter levels)?
Thanks for your help
Going for a Glass Cannon build around the idea of charging to deal lots of damage.
Huh? There is nothing "glass" or "cannon" about building a charger.
Anyway...
Going off what you have... If you are going to spend so many levels on Fighter, any charging build needs the Dungeoncrasher variant (I think it's in the PHB2).
You need to find a way to get large. I would suggest a couple levels in PsyWar to grab Expansion. This will also net you a couple bonus feats; I'd take Practiced Manifester and Linked Power -- link Expansion to whatever other power you choose (Force Screen would be nice since your AC will be dropping from charging).
Another great way to get large is to play a Goliath with Mountain Rage. I don't see Races of Stone on your book list -- maybe you could sway your DM.
Now, to really take advantage of your large size, grab the feats Powerful Charge and Greater Powerful Charge.
Why the Bastard Sword? It costs a feat, and the Greatsword does more damage.
Best advice I can give... Do a search on this board for "charger" and start from scratch. Your jaw will drop when you see how many uber-charging builds there are out there, and the potential damage they can do.
Huh? There is nothing "glass" or "cannon" about building a charger.
Well, it can be quite fragile until elusive target's "negate power attack".
Any charger build works better with REach, something you've neglected. Your Exotic Weapon should reflect this...probably spiked chain, or some sort of polearm. If you don't want that, pick another reach weapon and get SHort Haft so you can use it in close quarters.
Heedless charge piles up more charge dmg for you, but I think you need to be a full blooded orc to use it. Powerful charge and greater powerful charge are probably not worth the feat investment.
Improved Bull Rush definitely works with Dungeon crasher, however.
Since you are starting at level 2, see if the DM will allow Half Ogre (LA +2). +8 Str and a lot of goodies, including size L.
Otherwise, for size L, work with the caster in the party, carry potions, and consider a magic item or permanent Enlarge at later levels.
Since you have a level of Barbarian, Extra Rage will be useful for combat buffs.
Since you'll have reach and a big weapon, Stand Still and Combat Reflexes make some sense. You'll need a Martial Study and a Martial Stance feat to pick up Thicket of Blades to really make the dual function work against everyone, however.
Weapon Spec and Melee weapon mastery should round out your feats nicely.
==Aelryinth
Dodge and Mobility are probably superfluous in your build.
They are there for Elusive Target, although if I'm going for the largest damage in the first charge, maybe worrying about AC after the charge isn't that necessary?
Any charger build works better with REach, something you've neglected.
I can see where that would be really good, especially with Combat Brute not doing me any good if no-one is within reach after a charge...
Powerful charge and greater powerful charge are probably not worth the feat investment.
I was wondering about that too. Someone elsewhere was suggesting adding in some Psychic Warrior to get Expansion. Maybe that would make them worth the investment?
Improved Bull Rush definitely works with Dungeon crasher, however.
Dungeonscape is not available, sadly.
Since you are starting at level 2, see if the DM will allow Half Ogre (LA +2). +8 Str and a lot of goodies, including size L.
Race and background are already set, and besides I think I've already maxed out my request quota by going for Lion Totem Barb...
Otherwise, for size L, work with the caster in the party, carry potions, and consider a magic item or permanent Enlarge at later levels.
What do you think of adding a bit of PsyWar and maybe Warmind? I realize that Sweeping Strike doesn't work with the initial charge, but will be good for the Combat Brute follow-through, and Warmind keeps good BAB and gives a lot more power points for manifesting Expansion to be Huge for 10 min/level more times per day. Plus some other smaller benefits.
I suppose I could try for an item that allows augmented Expansion to be used a few times per day. But with no other Psionics in the group, I suspect I'd be hard-pressed to locate any items. Although the rest of the group are buffer/blasters, I don't think anyone actually has Enlarge.
Ok. Maybe I'll rejig this based on the thoughts so far...
Thanks
Unlike a lot of the theoretical charging builds on these boards that deal absurd damage once thanks to all sorts of cheesy dipping and then die due to -49 billion ac, your build actually has survivability and more importantly it is aesthetically pleasing/flavorfully viable. rant rant now I will suggest feats:
Since you're so conveniently a half-orc! (didn't give into the cheese and go half-ogre with la buyoff or whatever) you can take this:
Half-orc specific charging feat that I can't find right now because these boards suck ****ing balls and the ubercharger build has been purged (will edit in later)
Also: battle jump from unapproachable east and power lunge (if your dm rules it stacks with uncanny strike) from several books but just use realmshealp, seriously.
edit:
The feat I was going to suggest is Headlong Rush from races of faerun. You have to be an orc or a half-orc, which you are, and you are able to use a charge variant that deals double damage - except you provoke aoos from everyone in your way, including the creature you are charging. However, if you take power lunge, you're provoking an aoo from the guy you're charging anyway - so, regardless, this synergizes well with mobility, making that feat useful as not only a prerequisite but useful unto itself. Unless your DM's really mean, you're not going to have to use heedless charge all the time, so ac will still be important. Versatility!
edit2: except you don't have those books listed. Well, that sucks.
Don't listen to them! The build as you have it now is beautiful and elegant. Dipping into psionic classes will make it ugly and not nearly as beautifully synergetic.
These are the CharOp boards, not the beauty parlor. We don't make pretty builds, we make optimized ones.
These are the CharOp boards, not the beauty parlor. We don't make pretty builds, we make optimized ones.
True enough. But there is a line between what is theoretically optimized and what is actually practical and fun in-game (though I'm sure it varies a lot between any given person/gaming group). I mean, if he really wants to max his damage output, he could just scrap the build and go hulking hurler. Why make any suggestions at all when you can just direct him to [insert thread showcasing broken build] and have him imitate it?
Given a normal, sane DM who uses appropriately leveled encounters, the build does enough damage on a charge as it is, with 29 unbuffed strength, uncanny blow, leap attack and heedless charge. So I think it makes gaming sense to focus on the weaknesses of the build. Namely ac and not getting raped before you can charge.
But none of that is important, because rant rant. I would like to say that I'm in love with this build so much that I have stolen it and modified it slightly (dungeoncrasher, flaws, and something that will let me take knockback). This char concept reminds me so much of the orc blademaster from the warcraft rts.
btw- and I think this is somewhat relevant to the thread - is it possible at all (via feats, templates, etc.) to be a half-orc and qualify for knockback?
Bear Warrior is a fantastic prestige class, IMO; better than Frenzy Bezerker since you wont be killing your team. It may not fit in with the build, but if you're going for strength, a rampaging grizzly is hard to beat.
Orc Paragon isn't good... You gain a boost to darkvision, strength and attacks versus elves... not fantastic for 3 levels.
If you really are going for a 'glass cannon charger', Duskblades can work very well.
True enough. But there is a line between what is theoretically optimized and what is actually practical and fun in-game (though I'm sure it varies a lot between any given person/gaming group). I mean, if he really wants to max his damage output, he could just scrap the build and go hulking hurler. Why make any suggestions at all when you can just direct him to [insert thread showcasing broken build] and have him imitate it?
I think the reason he came here was to get opinions on how to optimize.
He's already dug himself into a hole with Half-Orc...
I think he was looking for options to tweak it into something better than it was. All we can do is make suggestions; If I show him how to do ten brazilian damage on a sneeze, he chooses whether to go my route. He could say "Screw these optimizers, I'll swap my Fighter levels for Warrior and see how many times I can take Skill Focus". He could decide not to play since he rather would spend time with his girlfriend. He could get a job at the lumber mill. Its all up to him.
(By the way, see if you can get the Desert Half-Orc; +2 con, -2 Int and Run as a bonus feat that can be retrained into anything. Plus, deserts are awesome.)
Thanks to all for the thoughts.
CO, here to help!
They are there for Elusive Target, although if I'm going for the largest damage in the first charge, maybe worrying about AC after the charge isn't that necessary?
Generally, if you build a Charge Build properly, There's no one alive in your reach to hit you when you get done. If you are really concerned about it, get a Martial Item (Iron Heart) that gives you Wall of Blades, and sub your Attack Roll for your AC for one attack (or dip Warblade for it). You could potentially go into the negatives for AC, and they'd still have to hit a 50+ to do dmg to you, at higher levels.
I can see where that would be really good, especially with Combat Brute not doing me any good if no-one is within reach after a charge...
Reach+Cleave/Great Cleave. A really simple Frenzied Berserker build, size L, can charge, do 250 pts dmg to the primary target,which kills anything less then a level 22 fighter with a 24 Con instantly, and then cleave for the same bonuses/dmg to everything within 20'. It's like an infinitely reusable auto-kill fireball. If you OPTIMIZE the charger...ewwww.
I was wondering about that too. Someone elsewhere was suggesting adding in some Psychic Warrior to get Expansion. Maybe that would make them worth the investment?
HE's doing it so you don't have to rely on casters or potions for enlarge. Note taking Psy Warrior affects your BAB, which affects your Power Attack, which lowers your dmg potential, higher Str or no.
Dungeonscape is not available, sadly.
Unfortunate, but not needed. I guess you'll just have to kill them instead of smashing them through 2' of stone, repeatedly.
Race and background are already set, and besides I think I've already maxed out my request quota by going for Lion Totem Barb...
God loves a Pouncer.
What do you think of adding a bit of PsyWar and maybe Warmind? I realize that Sweeping Strike doesn't work with the initial charge, but will be good for the Combat Brute follow-through, and Warmind keeps good BAB and gives a lot more power points for manifesting Expansion to be Huge for 10 min/level more times per day. Plus some other smaller benefits.
You want to keep full BAB to make use of Power Attack. Everything else is optional. Remember, a Charge build done right means you charge every round and kill something when you do, and there shouldn't be anything else to follow up with within your Reach. They'd have to charge YOU.
I suppose I could try for an item that allows augmented Expansion to be used a few times per day. But with no other Psionics in the group, I suspect I'd be hard-pressed to locate any items. Although the rest of the group are buffer/blasters, I don't think anyone actually has Enlarge.
Level 1 spell. Buy potions if you have to...or get one of the casters a wand of it. It's not like you need it for more then a minute at a time.
Ok. Maybe I'll rejig this based on the thoughts so far...
Thanks.
Most Welcome.
===Aelryinth
Wemic w/ Feral template (LA +4)
HD: Wemic 5, Ftr 2, Bar 2, Frenzied Berserker 8, This guy is all ready in play so no changes to what I have. I was going to max out the Frb to 10lvls to get the x2 to power attack. We are going to go to 30+ lvls so I have a bit to go. This is the feats I currently have:
Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Sunder, Destructive Rage, Intimidating Rage, Combat brute, Leap attack, Reckless rage, Improved natural attack (Claws), Multi Attack,
The main Magic Items I have for combat is:
+3 Huge greatsword, Strongarm Bracers, and Belt giant str +6.
Now the way I have figured this works out out is that because this guy is a wemic he gets to use his Melee weapon and front claws as part of a full attack which gives him 4 attacks with the great sword and 2 claws attacks with a rend. And since he has pounce he can do a leap attack and get all those attacks with a x2 (x4 for 2h weapon) multiplier on the power attack damage. then next round get the x1.5 (x3 for 2h weapon) for the combat brute.
So after I have got my last 2 lvls of Frb I was wonder what to take next.
Get a lance...
more importantly, get a +1 Lance of Charging for 8,000gp. It does (1d8+2d6+(Str bonus *2))*2 on the charge...this is easily available, even at low levels. If someone was tossing in a Power Attack...Let's see...
1d8 = 4.5
2d6 = 7
Str Bonus *2 = 10
Power Attack = 5
Total damage at level 5 for a Half-Orc = 53...with Frenzy and Improved Power attack it'll go much higher.
At level sixteen...
1d8 = 4.5
2d6 = 7
Str Bonus *2 = 24
Power Attack = 20
Total damage at level 16 for a Half-Orc = 111...with a 8,000 gp weapon as his only equipment. That's not counting a critical. If he has improved critical and a +1 Kaorti Lance of Charging he gets (on the charge) x8 to damage...
Mind you, this is with only, only Power Attack and maxed out FB using Frenzy. Feats and better weapons may increase damage.
Edit:
I don't know quite why, but my numbers read off wrong...for some reason, the Str scores are messed up...