Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 j2.504 Jan 29, 2009 14:47:44	I'm looking for help with a cleric build. The character will be played from level 1 up. Flavor: Neutral (negative energy) Cleric of life and death (and possibly undeath). Role in party = primary melee at low levels & primary healer, but that is not overly imporant. Sort of a creepy (not evil) "goth" dwarf, outcast due to his suspicious background from "traditional" dwarven society. At mid/high levels, he lives with a true necromancer/wizard build - with a lot of controlled undead (and undead leadership feat cohort/followers) in their lair. Current (basically neutral) party at lower levels = Wiz/CL True Necromancer (magic/necromancy cross specialist); Magically enhanced traveling ranger/archer (using a mix and match with Unseen Seer/Arcane trickster always on the move type); Non-beguiler beguiler build (Rogue/Unseen Seer/Arcane trickster, guildmaster type); Witchy Druid/Wiz (Arcane Hierophant or straight Druid). Party specializes in mobility/battlefield control/ranged/hit and run tactics. Later this group will likely subdivide, but still be affiliated and work together indirectly (thus the nature of their builds). Here's what I have so far: Essentially no Dieties used in this campaign - just themes. Domains: Death, (spontaneous) Healing Domain Race = Dwarven of some type Possibly Cloistered Cleric to gain Knowledge Devotion Possible 1 level dip into a prc that grants a bonus domain (undeath or similar) - I can't remember the prc right now AFB. I use the negative energy/spontaneous Healing Domain because: 1) He specializes in life and death (not one or the other). 2) He travels with living adventureres and is the primary healer. 3) He is surrounded by and commands undead at home. Here's what I want/need help with: Other than the 1 level prc dip to gain a bonus domain, what else should I add/enhance to empower this character. (Feats, prestige classes, race selection). Would it even be beneficial to prc at all (beyond that 1 dip)? Is there a feat to assist with his negative energy/spontaneous Healing combo - or a better workaround? Perhaps a way to spontaneously convert heal/harm energy as it is cast to negative/positive. Shaping metamagic would be something useful. The only magic item I'm hot for at the moment is speed enhancing (because he is the closest thing to a melee type in the group at low levels), unless I come up with a 30' move dwarf. Everyone else in the group is 30+ move, plus various spell/special ability movement enhancements. If you look in my sig, you can see the books I have access to - 3.5 WOTC stuff only.
#2 phaedrusxy Jan 29, 2009 15:23:25	Undeath is alot better domain for a melee cleric than Death, as it gets you a useful feat (useful for Divine Metamagic, that is). For healing, there is a feat that lets you be healed by negative energy that would fit for your group (Tomb-tainted Soul from Libris Mortis). Of course, everyone would have to take it (or actually become undead). It would let you drop the positive energy aspect and focus more, though. Since you're starting at low levels, and will be with a bunch of other multiclassed casters, you might consider a Master of Shrouds (also Libris Mortis). They're strong from about level 5 till level 15 or so. And they're still nearly full clerics, so you can do all the DMM: Persistant buffing cheese on top of it. You'll just be behind a level on spells. Here is a level 5 build I made using Dread Necro/Cloistered Cleric/MoS for a "gauntlet" that was ran on this board. And here is a handbook for the PrC: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3310.0 If you go with a neutral cleric who channels positive energy, you can get both turning and rebuking, and still match your flavor of "life and death". This is also very useful for powering Divine Metamagic, as you get twice as many Turn/Rebuke uses to fuel it, and feats like Extra Turning apply to both.
#3 j2.504 Jan 29, 2009 15:46:25	Good tips - thanks for the info... I'll consider the tomb tainted soul feat for the character himself - that might be helpful. Some more details: I'm really 100% going to go for positive healing and negative energy fairly equally (rather than specializing toward one over the other). That's sort of this character's "thing". So I don't want to neglect one half of that combo. However, he will use one or the other more often depending on his particular needs. A lot of the build/flavor sounds like a necromancer type, but that's not the goal in-and-of itself. We already have a dedicated necromancer in the group. This character is more of a generalist Cleric, but specializes in positive/negative energy and death/life/undeath. I don't need turning specifically, if I have rebuke, but I do need positive healing alongside negative energy (harm) capability - and have them both be as powerful as possible. I'd call this one more of a healer/harmer comfortable around undeath. Sort of like say a mortician or Dr. Kervorkian (sp?) type, or a doctor who has no problem dealing with terminally ill. He finds death, life, and undeath all equally acceptable, and conforms those powers/themes to his needs. He controlls/lives amongst undead, because he is comfortable with it, and it benefits him. He's also a bit more comfortable in a social setting around undead instead of living beings (being an outcast). This choice will likely cost him a little bit of specialization power, but that's okay. The problem with Dread Necro type build is he loses a lot of the generic cleric spells (though he gains a lot of Necro capability). I'd rather have him have the full Cleric list if possible, though I will give up a caster level or two to gain flavor if needed.
#4 j2.504 Jan 29, 2009 15:57:18	PS. I like the master of shrouds as a possible prc path. There's a prc (or 2) that grant extra domains and make your character more of a studious type, which might be another option. I can't remember them off the top of my head. Like a loremaster/cloistered flavor that doesn't give up spell progression. Here's another general question: Is cloistered cleric worth it for a build like this? If the character will be in melee (especially levels 1-10), is knowledge devotion worth the Cloistered Cleric losses to combat effectiveness over the course of the campaign?
#5 phaedrusxy Jan 29, 2009 16:07:01	Look, specializing as a healer (and that's what you're describing it sounds like to me) sucks. And generalizing a bit so you can heal both living and undead? That just means you suck at more things than other healers. Clerics are already plenty good at healing. You don't need to specialize at it. At all. Just buy a wand or two, and use them outside combat, and when you're in combat, actually focus on doing something useful, like neutralizing your enemies. What you need to decide is "what role is this character going to play, other than walking bandaid?" It sounded like you wanted to go melee, with some necromancy thrown in, aside from the walking bandaid stuff. That's why I suggested the build. One level of Dread Necro (which is all that build I linked to should ever have) gets you infinite (but slow) out of combat healing for all your undead buddies. That's enough. Being able to spontaneously cast cures (which you can do if you choose to Turn Undead with your cleric levels) lets you heal living creatures as much as you want, spontaneously (at least until you run out of spells). That's enough for them. So it is very simple to cover healing, and healing isn't something you should be trying to optimize to do in combat, anyway. So, decide what else you want to do, and build towards that. I can guarantee that the other necromancers will not be as good at summoning and controlling incorporeal undead as a Dread Necro 1/Cleric 2/Master of Shrouds. Clerics are better at controlling undead than any of the other stuff you mentioned, in general. True Necromancer is a piece of crap class that you should talk your friend out of taking at all, but that's probably a whole 'nother topic itself... I'd suggest this: you be the undead controller, and talk your wizard buddy into being an "Uttercold Assault Necromancer" (see this thread). You take Tomb-Tainted Soul, and he can blast your enemies and heal you and all your undead buddies at the same time. Edit: Yes, Cloistered Cleric is worth it.
#6 j2.504 Jan 29, 2009 16:35:30	Good points, and I agree with most of them - especially on the what else he should do beyond healing... Let me lay out the flavor one step better, so it's easier to understand my mindset. These builds are sort of anti-optimized by nature: I'm building flavor first, then optimizing based on that choice. Combat effectiveness is secondary to flavor, but once flavor is chosen, I'd like them to be as optimized as possible (including for combat). True Necromancer is not the best necromancer, but it is the best (or close to best) general magic necromancer combo. If I were building the best necro, this wouldn't be it. But this is the best divine/arcane general magic build that focuses on Necromancy. Each of the characters in the party is being designed from this perspective: Because the campaign world has no dieties in the traditional sense... This group is being built as if they were to ultimately fullfill the role of those missing dieties, but being played from level 1 up. That will likely not happen, but that's how these characters are being built. So, starting with that in mind: There is a necromancer/general magic specialist. Sort of like We Jas. TN/WIZ/CL filled that roll, but DN could not. Then there is a magically enhanced traveling ranger type. Ranger could not fill that roll, so I made a really complicated build for this one. She fullfills the prototype of planar/environment traveling/surviving bow Ranger. Then there is this Clerical character. Think of a broader (creation) type diety who controls the fate of other creatures. He brings life, kills, or creates undeath at his whim (though he's not as chaotic as this sounds). Combat-wise, I agree 100% that healing in combat is a no-win. So I do need some potentency beyond healing (including buff/debuff, summoning undead, etc.). However, postive healing/negative "healing" is primary to this character's flavor whether in combat or out. Dread Necro 1, actually might be a possiblity. I misread, and thought you meant more DN than that. I will definitely consider that combination with the positive/negative energy thing for the extra turn/rebukes. Right now, with my current build, I can memorize harm spells daily, but spontaneously swap them (or any other spell) for healing domain spells, so that was a good step toward the right flavor, without sacraficing upward spell levels. If I remember correctly, I also memorize the death domain in my free domain slots for extra offensive punch, but with spontaneous Healing domain, those healing spells are still always available - even though I rebuke as an evil Cleric. I'm open to all suggestions.
#7 Jarveiyan Jan 29, 2009 21:24:41	There's a prc (or 2) that grant extra domains and make your character more of a studious type, which might be another option. I can't remember them off the top of my head. Like a loremaster/cloistered flavor that doesn't give up spell progression. I do believe this references the Contemplative from CD - has poor bab, although it has extra domains and some cool abilities IMO. And is a full caster prestige class giving 10 levels of casting over 10 levels.
#8 j2.504 Jan 31, 2009 12:48:22	Contemplative is probably the one I was thinking of - thanks for that. I'm totally open to any other suggestions. Like feat chains, etc. that might help with my heal/harm/undead, or generic feats/prc's that I shouldn't be without. I'm trying not to specialize too much. Any specialization that does occur, I don't want it to take too much away from the generic build, and definitely not to take away from the heal/harm capability. Contemplative is a good example. Tomb tainted is another good example. Generally speaking I don't want to lose access to the Cleric spell list, and I want to retain upward spell level progression as much as possible (I'll give up a casting level or two for something great 'tho such as the 1 level dip into DN). For example, are there any feats/abilities that would allow me to mass heal undead and regular party members standing side by side in the same round? Is there a feat that will effectively shape a mass heal/mass harm type spells? Those kinds of things. Still brainstorming the general path.
#9 j2.504 Jan 31, 2009 13:02:31	I'm also looking for race suggestions. I know it's going to be a dwarf. Is there a dwarf race with no LA, that would be particularly strong as a Cleric (or have a 30' base move)?
#10 emy Jan 31, 2009 15:03:08	I'm also looking for race suggestions. I know it's going to be a dwarf. Is there a dwarf race with no LA, that would be particularly strong as a Cleric (or have a 30' base move)? http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=10002276 There are some without a charisma penalty, but you're not really getting anything from being a dwarf.
#11 winternacht Jan 31, 2009 15:22:00	For the healing thing: Look up "Touch of healing". This might help, because healing is best done OOC.
#12 j2.504 Feb 01, 2009 13:44:13	http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=10002276 There are some without a charisma penalty, but you're not really getting anything from being a dwarf. Thanks for the link. Dwarf is definitely not the most optimized choice, but works well for story/background/party makeup, etc.
#13 j2.504 Feb 01, 2009 14:14:43	For the healing thing: Look up "Touch of healing". This might help, because healing is best done OOC. Thanks for that. Generally, I agree 100% that healing in combat is usually not a good option. However, mass heal might be a good exception. I'm wondering if there's any good combination/clerical spell/feat, etc. that would: 1) Allow mass heal or mass harm shaped during combat. (So for example, I could selectively heal the folks who are healed by positive energy, without hitting my undead). Or... 2) Enable the undead and living to be healed with the same mass heal/harm type spell, without using a feat for each individual character/creature (like tomb tainted soul). Or... 3) Make one group immune to the spell being cast (and the reverse). (So, for example, if I do a mass heal on the group, I'd need to make my undead immune to the effects as the spell is cast, and if I did mass harm to heal the undead, I'd need to make the pc's immune to the effects). Magic items may work for this, though the best option would be if the caster himself could control this in some way. 4) Ways to heal from distance would also me helpful.