I am in desperate need of some advice of which way to go with my fighter. I need to take on the main tanking role and still dish out good damage. I'm thinking of going 2 handed - greatsword. There are some restrictions though. I have to take the first 4 levels as fighter and can't use anything from the ToB. Anyone got some good suggestions? I'm also considering taking 6 levels in Holy Liberator. Is that a good idea?
A simple build would be (using your requirement of starting with four levels of fighter): Fighter 4, Swashbuckler 3, Dervish 10, Tempest 3. For further optimization, drop two levels of fighter to max out Tempest at high levels.
Dervishes are fun if you like running around doing lots of damage; if you plan on being heavily armored, though, it's not the build for you.
Apart from that I'd say you have three good options as a fighter. The first is an archer which you don't seem to be asking for. The other two are chargers (works best with a barb dip for pounce) and battlefield control (without ToB this works best with either a 3 level knight dip for Bulwark of defense, or the earth devotion feat to prevent enemies escaping or closing with you via 5' steps).
For a charger you can either be mounted (for triple or higher damage with a lance and spirited charge) or on foot (easier when/if you get enlarged as well as for jumping for leap attack. Its also cheaper since you don't need a mount). Take power attack, improved bull rush, and shock-trooper, then leap attack, or if mounted, mounted combat, ride-by attack, and spirited charge. Also consider taking wild cohort for your mount.
For controllers there are a few options: there's tripping, which works best on enemies your size or smaller, generally at lower levels, standstill, which works better at higher levels since it is very easy to make it work against almost any opponent (at the expense of actually doing damage with your AoO), and possibly knock-back, as I mentioned before, bull-rush enemies away as they approach you. Any one of these methods are going to require combat reflexes and at least a decent dex score (14 starting is good, but more is always nice). Reach is an absolute must for this strategy (I personally don't like spending a feat on spiked chain when very rarely will enemies be within your reach if you are doing your job right). If dragon material is allowed, what I might consider taking exotic weapon prof. for is the awl pike (15' reach).
I don't want to create a character with dips in a ton of classes. They are just really unrealistic from a roleplaying point of view. I was thinking of a natural progression over 3 classes. I don't mind it being fairly complicated to play. Tactics are interesting in a fight.
Are you sure about that? If you look at the whole of your character, your fighter isn't going to be doing much other than swinging a sword. It should be easy to roleplay in that he's picking up a few new tricks along the way. Anyway you look at it, it shouldn't be too hard to justify (unless you start adding in casting).
Anyway, I think tactical soldier (Miniature's Handbook) might be right up your alley. Let's look at one type of build, mmkay?
I just realized that you needed the first levels fighter, but if you can swing this it would net you significantly more skill points and a max d12.
Human
1st: Barbarian 1: Lion Totem Variant (Complete Champion Variant), Whirling Frenzy (UA/SRD Variant), Power Attack, Cleave
2nd: Fighter 1: Combat Reflexes
3rd: Fighter 2: Improved Bullrush
4th: Fighter 3:
5th: Fighter 4: Deft Opportunist (Miniature's Handbook)
6th: Tactical Soldier 1: Shocktrooper (Complete Warrior)
7th: Tactical Soldier 2:
8th: Tactical Soldier 3:
9th: Tactical Soldier 4: Vexing Flanker (PHB2)
10th: Tactical Soldier 5:
11th: Tactical Soldier 6:
12th: Tactical Soldier 7: Robilar's Gambit (PHB2)
13th: Tactical Soldier 8:
14th: Tactical Soldier 9:
15th: Tactical Soldier 10: Defensive Sweep (PHB2)
Azurin Fighter 1: Power Attack, Cobalt Power, Improved Essentia Capacity.
Azurin Fighter 2: Improved Initiative
Azurin Fighter 3: Cerulean Will
Azurin Fighter 4: Combat Reflexes
Azurin Fighter 4/Totemist 1: I'd shape Blink Shirt and Sphinx Claws, personally.
Azurin Fighter 4/Totemist 2: Open Least Chakra (Hands); bind Blink Shirt to Totem Chakra and Sphinx Claws to Hands Chakra.
Azurin Fighter 4/Totemist 2/Psychic Warrior 1: Psionic Fist; Expansion
Azurin Fighter 4/Totemist 2/Psychic Warrior 2: Psionic Meditation; Metaphysical Claw.
Azurin Fighter 4/Totemist 2/Psychic Warrior 3: Reckless Offense; Bite of the Wolf.
Azurin Fighter 4/Totemist 2/Psychic Warrior 4: Hustle.
Azurin Fighter 4/Totemist 2/Psychic Warrior 4/War Mind 1: Synesthete.
Azurin Fighter 4/Totemist 2/Psychic Warrior 4/War Mind 2: Stand Still; Vigor.
Azurin Fighter 4/Totemist 2/Psychic Warrior 4/Warmind 3: Psionic Scent.
Azurin Fighter 4/Totemist 2/Psychic Warrior 4/Warmind 4: Dimension Swap.
Azurin Fighter 4/Totemist 2/Psychic Warrior 4/Warmind 5: Speed of Thought; Body Purification.
Azurin Fighter 4/Totemist 2/Psychic Warrior 4/Warmind 6: Duodimensional Claw.
Azurin Fighter 4/Totemist 2/Psychic Warrior 4/Warmind 7: Claws of the Vampire.
Azurin Fighter 4/Totemist 2/Psychic Warrior 4/Warmind 8: Psionic Charge; Psionic Freedom of Movement.
Azurin Fighter 4/Totemist 2/Psychic Warrior 4/Warmind 9: Truevenom.
Azurin Fighter 4/Totemist 2/Psychic Warrior 4/Warmind 10: Oak Body.
The end result is a pouncing, natural attack focused build with good mobility, some self-healing, and battlefield control.
By 6th level in Horizon Walker (11th level if you get ASAP) you can take planar terrain masteries which include the ability to use dimension door once ever d4 rounds, tremmorsense, and immunity to alignment based magic (including holy word and it's variation).
It's not a tanking class per se, but it does a melee job very, very well.
If you want a penultimate tanking build, you are looking at a classic sword and board TWF build. Combining Shield Ward and Shield Mastery with a bladed shield and longsword can get you to a very good AC and terrific damage potential.
Also, ask your DM if you can use the Paizo fighter. takes care of any numbers problems, and lets you focus on tactics. IN 3.5, the Fighter is a severely underpowered class, as the Tome of 9 Swords 'fixes' illustrated.
==aelryinth
Great to see you post again, ael.
Another good choice is a Dervish build.
That's great for damage and mobility, but not really a tanking option.
Horizon Walker ...
I'm not sure why you suggest that. The benefits from the PrC are negligible for what the OP is looking for (except perhaps Shifting Planar Mastery, but that requires a 6-level expenditure of mediocrity). Nothing to improve damage, lasting power, or to make opponents target you over the rest of the party.
Look at the Lockdown build in my sig, and read it all the way through. There's several tricks that aren't in there (specifically, aptitude weapons with IUS and SUS cheese), but it's a farily straight-forwards build that no DM should have much problem with. It also has links to several variations on the theme with other classes.
That would be my suggestion as well. You don't need to follow the builds to the letter, but just take the essential parts (reach weapon, standstill, etc.).
If you want a penultimate tanking build, you are looking at a classic sword and board TWF build. Combining Shield Ward and Shield Mastery with a bladed shield and longsword can get you to a very good AC and terrific damage potential.
Penultimate? It might have decent AC, but it lacks "stickyness" to be a great tank. I also don't see the "terrific damage potential".
Also, ask your DM if you can use the Paizo fighter. takes care of any numbers problems, and lets you focus on tactics. IN 3.5, the Fighter is a severely underpowered class, as the Tome of 9 Swords 'fixes' illustrated.
+1.
You can also just stow the shield and use the longsword two handed, or not fight off hand and maximize to hit and AC together. Sword and Board is extremely versatile and flexible...and tanks like no tomorrow. The +5 large Shield spec with +5 defender spikes is getting +13 AC off his shield, and can stick a missile deflect aug stone on it for +5 more against missiles. with 'normal' +5 gear, the walk around AC for a such a fighter is 48ish, with no tricks related to shapechanging, stacking ability scores, and so forth.
Stickiness is a problem for all melee, not just the fighter...more tio the point of poor feats available then anything. Paizo at least has some feats that address it, and there's always action points and feats thereunto to do the same...as well as our lovely Belts of Battle.
===Aelryinth
Bard 3 / Fighter 8 / Dervish 9
Feats:
Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Mobility
Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
Weapon Focus (Handaxe)
Expeditious Dodge
Power Attack
Robilar's Gambit
Double Hit
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Trip
High Sword Low Axe
Makes for quite a fun build, alas anything but optimized. Dervish Dance through the line of enemies and see them hit the ground with High Sword Low Axe. If higher damage is needed, wield the Handaxe two-handed and Power Attack away.
==Aelryinth
My friend wants to play fighter 20 in the game we are about to start, I am going to refer him to this thread
Damage potential for sword and board is actually higher then damage for almost any other two weapon combo. An off hand large spiked/ bladed shield with Bash enhancement is a 2-12 weapon!
You can also just stow the shield and use the longsword two handed, or not fight off hand and maximize to hit and AC together. Sword and Board is extremely versatile and flexible...and tanks like no tomorrow. The +5 large Shield spec with +5 defender spikes is getting +13 AC off his shield, and can stick a missile deflect aug stone on it for +5 more against missiles. with 'normal' +5 gear, the walk around AC for a such a fighter is 48ish, with no tricks related to shapechanging, stacking ability scores, and so forth.
Yeah, having played more sword and board fighters than anything else. I can say that even basically opped (with just feats from PHB, CW, and PHB2) these are pretty sweet for doing damage. And will have high AC's.
I strongly reccomend grabbing endurance and Steadfast Determination if your DM plays anything like mine, we will always trying to get charmed, sleeped, or something else.
Hand axe is a Small weapon, you can't TH it. You can TH the scimitar, however!
==Aelryinth
I'm going to go ahead and assume this is supposed to say "Light weapon", not "Small weapon", since they make Small Greatswords, which can certainly be TH'd by an appropriately sized character.
Damage potential for sword and board is actually higher then damage for almost any other two weapon combo.
Since two-weapon combos have among the lowest damage potential (barring extra damage, such as sneak attack), this is not saying much. That's one of the fundamental CO insights. See here, part II.
Stickiness is a problem for all melee, not just the fighter
Not sure why you bring that up, as nobody claimed the opposite.
Most of the battlefield control Fighters are pretty solid. I have two questions about the build in your sig, Aelryinth. How do you stop someone from making a simple tumble check to get out of dodge? Number 2 is, how do you make the 10 foot adjustment with a tumblecheck?
My friend wants to play fighter 20 in the game we are about to start, I am going to refer him to this thread
The Thicket of Blades feat/stance expressly works perfectly well against Tumble Checks. He tries to tumble away, Stand Still him when his jaw drops for the AoO he provokes. At high levels, he's not going to make the 60ish Reflex check, and at lower levels he's unlikely to make the 35ish.
10 foot adjustment with a Tumble Check is a DC 40 or Tumble Check, I believe, just as standing as a Free Action is a DC 30ish.
===Aelryinth
Damage potential for sword and board is actually higher then damage for almost any other two weapon combo.
Since two-weapon combos have among the lowest damage potential (barring extra damage, such as sneak attack), this is not saying much. That's one of the fundamental CO insights. See here, part II.
Stickiness is a problem for all melee, not just the fighter
Not sure why you bring that up, as nobody claimed the opposite.
YOu're moving the goal posts. If you make the Shield your primary weapon, you do as much damage as a Greatsword...but that's cheesy. Technically, you can even TH wield a shield....super cheesy.
I noted that it was the best of the TWF combos. When you are making a full attack, the extra +20 dmg from a good shield bash is useful. At the same time, you are getting a +13 AC bonus that meat puppet THW wielder isn't getting. Actually, the damage from using a TWF shield and sword combo is about the same as wielding the sword Two-Handed (i.e. the extra Str bonus).
THW really only shines for single attacks over the other styles. Once you've got just enough bonus damage to get more average dmg then +.5 Str, THW starts losing out...and moreso once you start counting AC bonuses.
But he wasn't talking about an uber damage build, or an uber charger build. He wanted a tank, and hopefully some with flexibility. A Sword and Board TWF build has all that. Improved Shield Bash, TWF, and Power Attack give you all the flexibility and options you need.
===Aelryinth
The Thicket of Blades feat/stance expressly works perfectly well against Tumble Checks. He tries to tumble away, Stand Still him when his jaw drops for the AoO he provokes. At high levels, he's not going to make the 60ish Reflex check, and at lower levels he's unlikely to make the 35ish.
10 foot adjustment with a Tumble Check is a DC 40 or Tumble Check, I believe, just as standing as a Free Action is a DC 30ish.
===Aelryinth
I see now. I am not an expert on ToB, I had Thicket of Blades mixed up with Island of Blades. Oddly enough, the last game I played in I played one of the few random wizard builds that might have been able to get out of that anti-magic trap. It was a Dwarven Runesmith in full plate with a Tower Sheild and using the Shielded Casting feat.
For the 10 foot adjustment, can you tell me where those rules are because I don't ever remember seeing them. They are of interest to me because I am about to roll a TWF crossbow/sneak attack rogue. If I can use that 10 foot adustment rule, I'll sneak in some scout levels are take Swift Ambusher too. 10 foot step, full attack with sneak attack and skirmish damage
The Tumble thing comes from the Oriental Adventures book as an expansion to some of the Tumbling Rules. At DC 40, it's not something someone should be able to pull off until well over 15 in most circumstances (i.e. +30 bonus to take 10 on it).
===Aelryinth
Mage Slayer still makes it impossible to cast defensively if you are in reach.
The Tumble thing comes from the Oriental Adventures book as an expansion to some of the Tumbling Rules. At DC 40, it's not something someone should be able to pull off until well over 15 in most circumstances (i.e. +30 bonus to take 10 on it).
===Aelryinth
That's where the Shielded Casting feat made that guy uniquely suited to have a chance. You don't have to cast defensively, you just flat out don't provoke AOO's from spellcasting if you have a shield equipped and at the ready. I still wouldn't have wanted to get get ambushed by that guy, but that dwarf would have had much better odds than most spellcasters.
Oriental Adventures is technically 3.0 material, and my DM normally doesn't let us use it. If I can get it approved though, it will really make for a nice endgame boost in power. Thanks for the info.
I noted that it was the best of the TWF combos.
Again, since TWF is a sub-par technique for dealing damage, that doesn't say much.
Actually, the damage from using a TWF shield and sword combo is about the same as wielding the sword Two-Handed (i.e. the extra Str bonus).
Hardly.
Once you've got just enough bonus damage to get more average dmg then +.5 Str, THW starts losing out...and moreso once you start counting AC bonuses.
Your suggestion doesn't have a source of bouns damage. Also, I made that very point.
But he wasn't talking about an uber damage build, or an uber charger build. He wanted a tank, and hopefully some with flexibility. A Sword and Board TWF build has all that. Improved Shield Bash, TWF, and Power Attack give you all the flexibility and options you need.
Yes, that was what he was talking about. What makes a tank? Primarily stickiness (which your suggestion clearly has much less than a similar reach weapon build does). I'd link to the lockdown thread, but I think you are familiar with it
Flexibility is definately be had with a S&B build, and survivability is slightly increased with the higher AC, but you were arguing damage before, which is plainly wrong. It might be a different issue in Pathfinder.
Also note that your suggestion becomes more and more feat intensive the longer the discussion continues.
A THW does, say, 2-12 + Bonus + 1.5 Str + other things.
A TWF does Wpn + Wpn + BOnus + Bonus +1.5 Str, + 2x other things.
The -2 To hit is the only clincher.
A THW wielder with a Greatsword and 30 Str does exactly 7.5 more points of damage per swing then a longsword wielded one handed.
In other words, if you can do ONE off hand attack for 22.5 points, you are dealing ALL the damage Mr. Greatsword does across 3 attacks. If you get 2 of these attacks, your base dmg is now higher.
Mr. Greatsword and THW weapons rule in standard attack actions, and on charges...anywhere you are ONLY allowed the one attack. They are most likely then to be able to abuse Power Attack, in addition.
Now, if on top of this you get bonus damage, the damage situation rapidly tilts towards TWF.
So, TWF is manifestly NOT an inferior fighting style in terms of damage, if your focus is the Full Attack action.
Where TWF falls down is the cost of getting those extra attacks, and full attacks being limited vs singles. As a style it's great, as cost to get it working, it sucks.
The ideal sword and board TWF build is simply to get ONE off hand attack. Such should add 20-30 dmg on a full attack action, which makes it roughly equal to using a Greatsword two handed, with a much better AC.
==Aelryinth
Agile Shield Fighter allows you to use both heavy shields and weapons at the same penalty. You lose out if since its not part of a progression chain, but if you're only after a single extra attack, then that shouldn't be a problem?
Or is power Attack not an issue because you get superior damage from making sure that all your attacks will land, rather than using it to boost damage, at a penalty to hit?
THe difference between a THW and a TWF build is not bonus damage. THe TWF build will win on damage. The difference is the -2 to hit, and the cost in feats to get the extra dmg off hand.
TWF looses on several levels:
- The damage per strike is considerably less
- You need full attacks (hardly a given) and bonus damage to make it worthwhile
- The -2 to hit results in a considerable reduction in damage in all but trivial cases
- Power Attack (a standard source of damage for fighters) is a much less useful option
- Such builds are extremely feat intensive (especially when using a shield in TWF), meaning that you have less feats to make your fighter a good, i.e., sticky, tank (Standstill, Combat Reflexes, MM: something, MS: Thicket of Blades, Mage Slayer etc.) or to improve the damage output / versatility (Power Attack, MM, MS, perhaps even things like Slashing Fury, Melee Weapon Mastery and Weapon Supremacy).
In short, it's a trap. (*)
Also: Where are Shield Mastery and Bladed Shield from?
(*) Unless you have a source of massive bonus damage (e.g., it's good for rogues)
In my experience, having played a whole lot of fighter builds, the good ole spiked chain or glaive w/short haft is the best overall bet for a strength based fighter.
Wouldn't Agile Shield Fighter be better than Two Weapon Fighting? With TWF feat, you're either going to lose out with higher hit penalties for not using a light weapon, or on bonus damage since if you do use a light weapon/shield, you won't get the full x2 Power Attack bonus.
Agile Shield Fighter allows you to use both heavy shields and weapons at the same penalty. You lose out if since its not part of a progression chain, but if you're only after a single extra attack, then that shouldn't be a problem?
Or is power Attack not an issue because you get superior damage from making sure that all your attacks will land, rather than using it to boost damage, at a penalty to hit?
Agile Shield Fighter also works, but it limits your off hand to shield. Any shield used in the off hand is considered a light weapon for TWF, and you can bash with it, and that includes heavy shields. The reason you use TWF is so that you can use something other then a shield, AND potentially grab Improved TWF for that second off-hand attack if you so choose.
Power Attack is generally only worth using on single attacks, where your odds of landing a hit are very high. ON full attack actions, you do more dmg by landing your iteratives. Indeed, if you can get your fixed dmg over +20, you basically should never use Power Attack on a full action.
==Aelryinth
TWF looses on several levels:
- The damage per strike is considerably less
=======This is irrelevant, because you get more strikes. Dmg is cumulative, and TWF does more then 1/2 the damage of THF per strike. Do the math. As I noted above, 7.5 pts per swing is not 'considerable', it's significant...and ONE successful off hand attack can make up for 3 swings from Mr. Greatsword Guy in terms of DOT.
- You need full attacks (hardly a given) and bonus damage to make it worthwhile
=======Also untrue. You need full attacks, which generally means the ability to Pounce. BOnus dmg just goes overboard, and all builds want Pounce. Melee reliance on full attack actions to do significant damage applies to all styles, not just TWF.
- The -2 to hit results in a considerable reduction in damage in all but trivial cases
=======It's not considerable, it's the equalizer. It's why the style isn't considered superior. -2 To Hit is +4 Dmg from Power Attack. It 'adjusts' one off hand attack being equal to the 'extra' dmg from 2 THW attacks...hardly a gamebreaker. A TWF with two off hand attacks once again equalizes or surpasses the damage.
- Power Attack (a standard source of damage for fighters) is a much less useful option
=======Power Attack is generally only useful on standard, single attack actions, which naturally favor the THF style. For full attacks, your best tactic is almost always to try and land the second hit, not PA and reduce your chances.
- Such builds are extremely feat intensive (especially when using a shield in TWF), meaning that you have less feats to make your fighter a good, i.e., sticky, tank (Standstill, Combat Reflexes, MM: something, MS: Thicket of Blades, Mage Slayer etc.) or to improve the damage output / versatility (Power Attack, MM, MS, perhaps even things like Slashing Fury, Melee Weapon Mastery and Weapon Supremacy).
========Not only feat intensive, but pre-req intensive! Which is why you never spend more then one feat on it...you don't need to do more then an extra attack off hand to equalize dmg with THW on a full attack action.
And let's also not forget gear intensive, as you have to pay for two magical doodads instead of one. On the flip side, you have two weapons in the event you are disarmed (hah!) or sundered (ewww).
In short, it's a trap. (*)
Also: Where are Shield Mastery and Bladed Shield from?
========I probably meant Shield Spec. Bladed Shields are from Drow of the Underdark (slashing version of Shield Spikes)
(*) Unless you have a source of massive bonus damage (e.g., it's good for rogues)
==Aelryinth
Yeah. All in all TWF is harder to pull off then THW. Remember that having a high dex is a prerequiste for a lot of feats, and if you are interested in the Combat Expertise feat tree, then you also have to deal with a decent int score. Power attack pails in comparison with TWF, versus PA with a THW. The only reason why I would consider TWF is with the full feat tree and a reliable means of pounce. A sword and board beserking pouncing barbarian would be tough to beat for pure damage (other than mounted pouncers).
In my experience, having played a whole lot of fighter builds, the good ole spiked chain or glaive w/short haft is the best overall bet for a strength based fighter.
In terms of simplicity and flexibility, I'd have to agree with you. A THF is much more direct and simple to play. Going SAB TWF does, however, give you a monstrous AC and great tactical options depending on your situation. The fact it is so feat intensive is annoying, but really, it's only TWO more feats then a Short Hafter (Short Haft vs Shield Spec, Ward, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Fighter/TWF). What you lose in feats you make up in incredible AC.
Also note that if you do use Agile Shield Fighter, Dex pre reqs are not an issue.
===Aelryinth
Massive damage needs 50 damage on a single attack. With leap attack and valorous a level 10 fighter with 18 strength wielding a two handed weapon will deal [5 (average damage for most THW) + 6 (strength bonus) + 16 (-4 from PA) +1 (magic weapon)] x2 = 64 damage with a + 13 to hit on a charge. In my experience this is a really easy way to drop most arcane casters in one round. If they're not down from HP loss they still have to make the save and usually don't have much health left if they succeed that.
DR is obvious, the more attacks, the more it negates.
TWF also misses out on two more points: Massive Damage and against DR.
Massive damage needs 50 damage on a single attack. With leap attack and valorous a level 10 fighter with 18 strength wielding a two handed weapon will deal [5 (average damage for most THW) + 6 (strength bonus) + 16 (-4 from PA) +1 (magic weapon)] x2 = 64 damage with a + 13 to hit on a charge. In my experience this is a really easy way to drop most arcane casters in one round. If they're not down from HP loss they still have to make the save and usually don't have much health left if they succeed that.
DR is obvious, the more attacks, the more it negates.
This is, again, the single attack. If you are going single attack, keep the off hand sheathed and use two hands on your main weapon...you give up 2.5 dmg. Wahoo. See the difference? The TWF can go two handed easily, and Power Attack as required. All he needs is a medium weapon. The THF is basically forced down one road.
And you're also comparing an Uber charger tactic to a tank focus. Not quite the same thing.
Against DR the TWF actually has an advantage, because he will always be equipped with two weapons, and so has a better chance of having cold iron/silver/adamant. If not, then it's no more a problem for the style then it is for any other melee. Trumping DR is an annoying thing all melee have to put up with.
==Aelryinth
TWF looses on several levels:
- The damage per strike is considerably less
=======This is irrelevant, because you get more strikes. Dmg is cumulative, and TWF does more then 1/2 the damage of THF per strike. Do the math. As I noted above, 7.5 pts per swing is not 'considerable', it's significant...and ONE successful off hand attack can make up for 3 swings from Mr. Greatsword Guy in terms of DOT.
Hardly. Getting full attacks off as a fighter is clearly not a given, even with pounce. Also, lower to-hit reduces the overall damage. If you only miss one attack that would otherwise his, you already need at least two off-hand attacks to make up for it.
As an aside: "significant" is not "considerable"?
- You need full attacks (hardly a given) and bonus damage to make it worthwhile
=======Also untrue. You need full attacks, which generally means the ability to Pounce. BOnus dmg just goes overboard, and all builds want Pounce. Melee reliance on full attack actions to do significant damage applies to all styles, not just TWF.
Pounce sure is nice, but doesn't guarantee full attacks. Your simplistic view that TWF is worth it as long as you get full attacks off doesn't account for the lower to-hit rate, for example. Feats invested in making this an option are not available to increase your chances to hit or your damage, making it even worse.
As an aside: "irrelevant" = "untrue"?
- Such builds are extremely feat intensive (especially when using a shield in TWF), meaning that you have less feats to make your fighter a good, i.e., sticky, tank (Standstill, Combat Reflexes, MM: something, MS: Thicket of Blades, Mage Slayer etc.) or to improve the damage output / versatility (Power Attack, MM, MS, perhaps even things like Slashing Fury, Melee Weapon Mastery and Weapon Supremacy).
========Not only feat intensive, but pre-req intensive! Which is why you never spend more then one feat on it...you don't need to do more then an extra attack off hand to equalize dmg with THW on a full attack action.
Huh?
Your very own suggestion listed TWF, Shield Specialization, Shield Ward. If you follow your own reasoning, you will want ITWF as well, and perhaps even an exotic shield proficiency. How is that "one feat"?
Note that for a shield to do comparable damage to your main weapon, you will need additional feats, such as the Weapon Mastery/Supremacy tree.
And let's also not forget gear intensive, as you have to pay for two magical doodads instead of one.
True, that makes it an even worse option.
TWF looses on several levels:
- The damage per strike is considerably less
=======This is irrelevant, because you get more strikes. Dmg is cumulative, and TWF does more then 1/2 the damage of THF per strike. Do the math. As I noted above, 7.5 pts per swing is not 'considerable', it's significant...and ONE successful off hand attack can make up for 3 swings from Mr. Greatsword Guy in terms of DOT.
Hardly. Getting full attacks off as a fighter is clearly not a given, even with pounce. Also, lower to-hit reduces the overall damage. If you only miss one attack that would otherwise his, you already need at least two off-hand attacks to make up for it.
As an aside: "significant" is not "considerable"?
- You need full attacks (hardly a given) and bonus damage to make it worthwhile
=======Also untrue. You need full attacks, which generally means the ability to Pounce. BOnus dmg just goes overboard, and all builds want Pounce. Melee reliance on full attack actions to do significant damage applies to all styles, not just TWF.
Pounce sure is nice, but doesn't guarantee full attacks. Your simplistic view that TWF is worth it as long as you get full attacks off doesn't account for the lower to-hit rate, for example. Feats invested in making this an option are not available to increase your chances to hit or your damage, making it even worse.
As an aside: "irrelevant" = "untrue"?
- Such builds are extremely feat intensive (especially when using a shield in TWF), meaning that you have less feats to make your fighter a good, i.e., sticky, tank (Standstill, Combat Reflexes, MM: something, MS: Thicket of Blades, Mage Slayer etc.) or to improve the damage output / versatility (Power Attack, MM, MS, perhaps even things like Slashing Fury, Melee Weapon Mastery and Weapon Supremacy).
========Not only feat intensive, but pre-req intensive! Which is why you never spend more then one feat on it...you don't need to do more then an extra attack off hand to equalize dmg with THW on a full attack action.
Huh?
Your very own suggestion listed TWF, Shield Specialization, Shield Ward. If you follow your own reasoning, you will want ITWF as well, and perhaps even an exotic shield proficiency. How is that "one feat"?
Note that for a shield to do comparable damage to your main weapon, you will need additional feats, such as the Weapon Mastery/Supremacy tree.
And let's also not forget gear intensive, as you have to pay for two magical doodads instead of one.
True, that makes it an even worse option.
The lower to hit ratio is -2. It is there to even out the damage, otherwise TWF wins in full attacks every single time.
Significant means a portion, considerable means much or most of. It's the difference between being something you acknowledge, and something that is dominant. If I were to define it in math terms, significant probably starts around 20%, and considerable 40%+ of something.
Irrelevant means it doesn't apply. Untrue means it's not true.
You don't need an exotic Shield prof, you need to put blades on your shield. No different then spikes. You can't Bash with an extreme shield, which is the only exotic shield I know.
THe Affinity Enhancement makes all your spec feats for your main weapon apply to your shield. +1 Cost. Not an issue as far as feats go. ITWF is a possibility, it's not a neccessity.
And keep in mind that those four feats mean: +1 bonus to Shield AC; Shield AC applies to Touch Attacks, anti-combat manuvers, and Reflex saves; You can Bash and keep your Shield AC. They are synergistic in some very important ways.
At the same time, you can drop the shield and go two handed with ease. If you need the AC, you can keep it. With +5 Defender spikes, you have a +13 AC advantage over Mr. Greatsword Guy, +17 vs. Ranged attacks. And you can still attack!
==Aelryinth
The lower to hit ratio is -2. It is there to even out the damage, otherwise TWF wins in full attacks every single time.
That's your assertion only.
If you want TWF, or even ITWF, you need a decent DEX. So, for a damage comparison, the THW guy would have a better strength. Similarly, instead of one weapon, you need two. I.e., the enhancements will be less effective on each, resulting in less damage and likely lower to-hit.
Assume a more realistic vesion of your simplistic assumptions:
> A THW does, say, 2-12 + Bonus + 1.5 Str + other things.
>
> A TWF does Wpn + Wpn + BOnus + Bonus +1.5 Str, + 2x other things.
>
> A THW wielder with a Greatsword and 30 Str does exactly 7.5 more points of damage
> per swing then a longsword wielded one handed.
>
> In other words, if you can do ONE off hand attack for 22.5 points,
> you are dealing ALL the damage Mr. Greatsword does across 3 attacks.
> If you get 2 of these attacks, your base dmg is now higher.
Realistically, Mr. THW has 30 strength, a +5 weapon (plus +5 worth of other enchantments). Mr. TWF has only 28 strength (since he needs a decent DEX for TWF), and two +4 weapons (plus +4 worth of enchantments, of which one +1 is Aptitude). These two are still more expensive than the single weapon of Mr. THW, but are still somewhat reasonable. Let's assume the Weapon Supremacy tree for both, even though that is unrealistic for the shield guy, unless he's a fighter and does virtually nothing else.
Now, regarding your comment that a single off-hand attack is sufficient to make TWF a better option:
On a full attack, THW guy's attack bonus is +44/+39/+34/+34 (20 (BAB) + 15 (str) + 5 (weapon) +2 (focus), +2 (MWM)). Each attack does on average 31 damage (7 (2D6) + 15 (strength) + 5 (weapon) + 2 (spec) +2 (MWM) plus extra effects).
TWF guy's attacks are at +40/+35/+30/+30/+40 (20 (BAB), +14 (str) +4 (weapon) +2 (focus), +2 (MWM) -2 (TWF). Each hit does 21.5 (4.5 (1D8) + 9 (str) + 4 (weapon) + 2 (spec) + 2 (MWM) plus extra effects), albeit less than for the THF guy). The single off hand attack with the shield does -5 damage (strength).
The typical AC of a CR 20 monster (average of all listed in MM1) is about 37. THW guy does an average of 114.7 damage on a full attack, TWF guy only 86.6. If we take into account the DR for the critters (i.e., 15/you-don't-have-it), it's 54.7 vs. 11.6. This is not even taking into account extra damage from weapon enhancements, which the THF has likely more of.
Clearly, your claim is wrong; the single extra attack of TWF does not "more than make up" for the reduced damage.
Even if we used your unrealistic assumptions that the TWF guy can not only achive the same strength but also have two weapons both of the same quality as the THF guy's single weapon, the damage totals are sill clearly in favor of THF guy: 114.7 vs. 99.8 and 54.7 vs. 24.8. So yes, even in that context, your claim is wrong.
I'm surprised you would claim that, it's a well-known CO fact that TWF looses out vs. THF without extra damage (see the link I posted earlier).
Significant means a portion, considerable means much or most of. It's the difference between being something you acknowledge, and something that is dominant. If I were to define it in math terms, significant probably starts around 20%, and considerable 40%+ of something.
"Considerable" merely means that something is worth considering, and says nothing about being "dominant" (and obviously, 40% is neither "most of" nor "dominant"). See a dictionary. Several dictionaries (such as Merriam-Webster) even use "significant" to define"considerable", by the way, so the two are not as different as you apparently think. In other words, you are wrong.
Irrelevant means it doesn't apply. Untrue means it's not true.
My point exactly. You used the two synonymously, which is wrong.
And keep in mind that those four feats mean: +1 bonus to Shield AC; Shield AC applies to Touch Attacks, anti-combat manuvers, and Reflex saves; You can Bash and keep your Shield AC. They are synergistic in some very important ways.
I'm aware of that; my point was that it does cost four feats, which is rather prohibitatively expensive for non-fighter melee characters.
I specifically stated that the -2 to hit was the big equalizer with THF. That's the number that affects DOT calculations. Bonus damage just makes the pendulum swing back the other way even faster...and what high level fighter type doesn't have bonus damage?
Second your assertion about requiring a high dex is blatantly untrue. a 13 Dex with a +6 Dex booster can GTWF. Any fighter worth his salt at high level can get a 24 dex just with a +5 Inherent, +6 Dex booster...and is actually recommended to, to take advantage of the Dex limits of a Mithril BP. High Dex is not an argument...we are not talking about finesse fighters. we're talking about a guy fighting with his shield.
I did the math involved in this kind of thing long ago, and the 'edge' the THW guy gets tends to be pretty small...and he doesn't have the AC options of the Shield tank. As soon as you start increasing damage and TH bonuses to the 95% mark, the TWF just starts looking better and better with more attacks.
Making a TWF a finesse build is generally not a good idea. Fighters do dmg with strength.
People interpret significant and considerable very differently if you go read statistics. I'm not wrong, I'm interpreting it differently then you are. Our relative scales are different...deal with it.
The THW build has little going for it except reliance on a charge schematic. The Tank Shield can build to that, build for AC, and build for full attack damage while using that shield. It's also a proven point that doing the math, a guy with a shield and a longsword kills the guy with the greatsword...AC means more then .5 Str (as the -2 TH should show you).
I will repeat that the raw damage of TWF is as good or superior to THW. THe kicker is the -2 to hit, the feat investment, and the cost of those weapons, all of which become equalizers. Making a shield that second weapon serves to defray much of those costs, and an Uber Shield is one kickass off hand weapon!
===Aelryinth
Okay. I can't figure out why this is still going on.
I am pretty sure we were talking about which does more damage not, which one is more versatile. The math checks out that THW is harder hitting for less feats.
==Aelryinth
Okay. Than leave feats out of it and TWF doesn't stand a chance. For simplicity sake lets assume that all rolls are 10 to show the difference between hits.
Even with a light weapon the TWF'er will be at -4/-8. At level one with 20 strength and two masterwork weapons that adds up to a +2,-2 to hit for 1d8 + 5 + 1d6 + 2 = Average of 15 damage against foes of 7 AC or less. If a full attack is not an option then the attack goes up to +7 but only deals an average of 1d8 + 5 or 9.5.
A THW wielder with a MW weapon will be at +7, for an average of 1d10 + 7 = 12.5 against a foe of AC 16 or less.
Since almost everything has an AC of at least 10 it is clear that the TWF is doing far more harm to themselves than good by swinging that second weapon.
At level 20 with no relevant feats but with a strength of 30 and +5 Weapons for each side we see that on a full attack the TWF will hit ACs of 41/36/31/26 the off hand will hit at AC 36. The damage dealt will be 1d8 + 15 (19.5) per main hand attack for and a total of 78 damage. The off-hand adds 1d6 + 10 (13.5) for a total of 91.5.
The THW fighter will hit slightly higher ACs (45/40/35/30) for 25.5 per hit for a total of 102 damage. For a total of +10.5 over the TWF. If they are reduced to single attacks, the TWF still hits for 6 more damage.
If we assume one feat apiece. The TWF fighter adds the feat Two-Weapon Fighting feat and their chances to hit gets better but their damage doesn't. The THW fighter adds Power attack and only Power Attacks on Full-attacks for -2 (making the chances hit of the fighters the same) but now he has added 4 damage to each attack and now deals 26.5 more damage then the TWF with the same chance to hit.
I am not sure of what a fully devoted TWF F20 could pull off, they probably could get more damage (and should for their considerable feat investment), but the idea that TWF is intrinsically better without significant feat investment is statistically false.
Anyway... If we want to talk about versatility we start getting into a more subjective area. What counts as versatility? Is the ability to do incredible burst damage (IBR/shocktrooper/leap attack - 3 feat build) or damage to a large number of foes (Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack - 5 feat build with multiple defensive perks) part of being versatile? Or is it all about having the ability to deal high damage, only on full attacks, and have a high AC?
First of all, let me point out that the original comparison was on raw damage, not damage over time based on TH. IN raw damage, the TWF has the edge.
The numbers (see above) clearly show otherwise.
I specifically stated that the -2 to hit was the big equalizer with THF. That's the number that affects DOT calculations. Bonus damage just makes the pendulum swing back the other way even faster...and what high level fighter type doesn't have bonus damage?
Bonus damage in this case is not just high strength (and the example calculation assumed that) unless it's ridiculously high, it's significant extra damage such as sneak attack, skirmish, etc.
Second your assertion about requiring a high dex is blatantly untrue. a 13 Dex with a +6 Dex booster can GTWF. Any fighter worth his salt at high level can get a 24 dex just with a +5 Inherent, +6 Dex booster...and is actually recommended to, to take advantage of the Dex limits of a Mithril BP. High Dex is not an argument...we are not talking about finesse fighters. we're talking about a guy fighting with his shield.
If you want to wait until you can afford a +6 DEX item, be my guest. Since your priorities as a fighter clearly are weapon, armor, STR boost, save boost (in whatever order you like) AND secondary weapon before DEX boost, you'll be a sub-par fighter for quite a while. An note again that I did use your numbers in the calculation, too, and TWF still lost by a considerable margin.
Also: nobody was talking about finesse fighters.
I did the math involved in this kind of thing long ago, and the 'edge' the THW guy gets tends to be pretty small...
Then perhaps you did it wrong. See the example I gave - it speaks for itself. All you have done is asserted that you did the math - I actually showed my work).
Making a TWF a finesse build is generally not a good idea. Fighters do dmg with strength.
Nobody claimed or suggested otherwise (except for non-fighters (rogues), it's a very viable option).
People interpret significant and considerable very differently if you go read statistics. I'm not wrong, I'm interpreting it differently then you are. Our relative scales are different...deal with it.
If you are using non-standard English, you shouldn't correct others who don't.
And I find it very hard to believe that someone would use 40% to mean "most of" (as you did), especially in statistics - simply because it's plainly wrong.
The THW build has little going for it except reliance on a charge schematic.
I am not arguing veratiliy. I have just disproven your claim that TWF does comparable damage to THF, which it clearly doesn't.
Fighter 4/Barbarian 1 (Lion totem varaint from CC) is a nice start, you'll snag the Pounce ability, which allows you to deliver a full attack after a charge. You may want to also consider the Powerful Charge feat from Eberron Campgn. Settings, IIRC & it will give you an additional 1d8 your your damage on a charge. There are lots of ways to run a fighter you just have to choose how you want to go about it. Anyway that's just my 2 cp, I hope it helps.
So, let's start with level 1, the TWF takes his longsword and shortsword, the THF takes his greatsword.
They are at +1 BAB, +4 for 18 Str, and let's throw in masterwork weapons for +1. THW guy takes Power Attack, which he won't use because his DOT goes down when he does.
Against AC 15:
THW guy hits 55% of the time for 7 pts (Greatsword) +6 pts (str) = 55% of 13 dmg, or 7 pts.
TWF guy hits 45 % of the time for 8.5 (longsword + str) and 5.5 (ssword+.5str) = 45% of 14 dmg, or about 7 pts. In other words, DOT is about the same...but if both his weapons hit, he's going to do more dmg then Greatsword guy.
--------------
At level 6, against AC 20: +2 Weapons, 22 Str, 6 BAB
THW guy: 7 + 9 + 2 = 18 dmg. TH chance +14/+9 = 75/50 = 125% of 18, or about 22.5 pts.
TWF guy: 4.5+6+2 = 12.5, 3.5+3+2 = 8.5 +12/+7 & +12 = 65/40 = 105% of 12.5 or 13, +65% of 8.5, or 5.5. About 18.5 dmg. Note that his raw dmg is higher...if he rolls well, he'll outperform greatsword guy with the potential of 3 hits. DOT, he's doing slightly worse. WHy did this happen? Because they were equal, and Greatsword added a greatsword attack, and TWF guy only added a longsword attack. Naturally, THW won.
-------------------------------
At level 15, AC 25, Str 26, +5 weapons. ITWF BAse TH = 15+8+5 = +23
THW: 95/70/45 = 210% of 7+12+5 = 24, or about 50 dmg.
85/60/35 = 180% of 4.5+8+5 = 17.5, or about 32.
85/60 of 3.5+4+5 = 145% of 12.5, or about 18. Combined = 50 dmg. SPot on...with a much higher upside to TWF guy if he actually lands all his attacks.
AC 25 is LOW. AC 30 shifts things.
70/45/20 = 135% of 24, or 32 for THF
60/35/10 of 17.5 = 10%, or 18, + 60/35 of 12.5 = 12, or 30 combined dmg. THW has a 2 pt edge as AC goes up. With 2 pt more of dmg, THW is better.
-----------------------------------
GTWF, Str 30, BAB 20, +5 Weapons. AC 35.
+20+10+5 is +35.
THW is 95/80/55/30 = 260% of 7+15+5 = 27, or 70 pts.
TWF is: 95/70/45/20 = 230% of 4.5+10+5 = 19.5 or 45.
95/70/45 = 210% of 3.5+5+5 = 13.5, or 28. Combined is...73. TWF guy wins.
----
Let's take it to AC 40.
80/55/30/5 = 170% of 27, for 46 dmg for THW.
70/45/25/5 = 145% of 19.5, or 29.
70/45/25 = 140% of 13.5, or 19. = 48 combined for TWF guy.
============================
So, I'm not sure where all the 'THW is great' numbers are coming from. Yes, I know TH's of +40 and more are not uncommon at level 20, especially from Optimizers, and Str scores of 34 and higher get swapped in. But then, so does a lot of fixed dmg not dependent on weapon size.
Now, if Greatsword has lots of extra TH to dump into Power Attack against lower AC opponents...that might swing things. Then again, it might not. Clearly, Greatsword will jump ahead in any level where TWF guy doesn't add an off-hand attack, because adding a new Greatsword attack trumps adding a new longsword attack. But at high levels, where the chance of the last iterative landing is miniscule, that last greatsword attack means almost nothing, and the Greatsworder is comparing basically 3 attacks against 6.
The only thing keeping his dmg comparable is the -2 to hit. Without it, TWF guy would clearly be at the advantage, and if all TWF guy's attacks hit, he clearly can do a lot more harm.
It's this upside which skews the designer's view of TWF. When you start adding on the impact of things like WOunding and fixed bonus dmg not given a bonus for weapon size, TWF rapidly churns up the dmg meter on THW.
In a standard action, the Greatsword wielder wins by +2.5 pts, hands down, as TWF guy is best served by keeping his second weapon sheathed and using his main with two hands. Note that if TWF's off hand weapon is his shield, he does equal dmg to Greatsword guy if he just double-hands his shield as a weapon!
Also note, I was using an inferior off hand weapon...NOT a shield. A Shield with Bash and Spikes/Blades on it is base 2-12 dmg, for +3.5 avg dmg per blow, which rapidly skews the TWF numbers upwards to even more of an advantage.
So, the Style has no problems whatsoever in damage.
The cost in the style is the cost in feats and the cost of the off hand weapon. ANd the off hand weapon isn't even that pricey if it's a shield.
As I said, I've done the math in the past, and I hate repeating myself, but unless I posted something seriously wrong with base numbers, we're fairly good.
I find it interesting that the Jack B Quick post is up, because I was arguing for Greatswords in that thread, mainly because the entire build was so monstrously feat heavy, and you could basically do everything Jack did and more with a Greatsword. Thug would pound Jack to ribbons with all the extra feats he got. AoO's from longswords lose against AoO's from Greatswords, after all.
===Aelryinth
Then lets consider that through a variety of means, it is possible to get a charge going almost every round. So, a single level dip into Barb gives us pounce and also gives us an additional attack if we choose to use Whirling Frenzy in place of Rage. Now we can use PA, IBR, Cleave, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, etc. We now are doing significantly more damage than your TWF. Also, as for defense, Improved Buckler Defense. That basically shores up your issue of versatility. Also, if wanted the THW Guy can go the Weapon Spec route as he easily can have the feats to spare. This gives him yet more bonus damage. Remember, if you get to use those feats, so does the other guy.
A properly built THW Guy is going to out damage a TWF Guy. Just the way it works. That is unless you hand wave wealth by level, and just throw an extra +5 Weapon at TWF Guy cause it makes your argument more plausible.
In my group, this guy dominated combat by being consistent. The static bonus to attack rolls and the increased mobility in even heavy armor allowed the Pathfinder fighter to actually do the job you expected a fighter to. If you can swing it, try to grab Combat Reflexes and the Pathfinder version of Stand Still.
ah, the wonders of misquoting.
What are you talking about? Who has misquoted anything (but you yourself)?
So, let's start with level 1, the TWF takes his longsword and shortsword, the THF takes his greatsword.
They are at +1 BAB, +4 for 18 Str, and let's throw in masterwork weapons for +1. THW guy takes Power Attack, which he won't use because his DOT goes down when he does.
Against AC 15:
THW guy hits 55% of the time for 7 pts (Greatsword) +6 pts (str) = 55% of 13 dmg, or 7 pts.
TWF guy hits 45 % of the time for 8.5 (longsword + str) and 6.5 (ssword+.5str) = 45% of 15 dmg, or about 7 pts. In other words, DOT is the same...but if both his weapons hit, he's going to do more dmg then Greatsword guy.
Ouch. Bad assumtions and mistakes:
- Why would he take a feat he doesn't use? Why not Weapon Focus? This is a damage comparison, after all. TWF is not paying the opportunity cost of having a feat expended, so he will use it for something useful.
- The average damage of the off-hand attack is only 5.5 (3.5 + 2).
- With an attack bonus of +6, you chances of hitting AC 15 are 60%, not 55%. Of course, it should be 65%, since he would choose Weapon Focus over the (useless) Power Attack.
- Rounding in your favor does not make your point any more believable.
- 1st level characters shouldn't have access to masterwork weapons, except in rare circumstances. Since it's possible in FR, however, let's work with it anyway.
The real damage is thus 8.45 for THF (13 * 65%), and 7 (4.25 (8.5 * 50%) + 2.75 (5.5 * 50%)) for TWF. Clearly, THF is considerably better (over 20% more damage). And this is the (unrealistic) full attack scenario, which actually favors the TWF guy. For single attacks, there´s no question TWF is better.
At level 6, against AC 20: +2 Weapons, 22 Str, 6 BAB
THW guy: 7 + 9 + 2 = 18 dmg. TH chance +14/+9 = 70/45 = 115% of 18, or about 20 pts.
TWF guy: 4.5+6+2 = 12.5, 3.5+3+2 = 8.5 +12/+7 & +12 = 60/35 = 95% of 12.5, +60% of 8.5, or 5. About 17 dmg.
More unrealistic assumptions and rule mistakes:
- The to-hit chances are off by 5% each again (e.g., the chance to hit an AC 20 opponent with a +14 bonus is 75%, not 70%).
- You cannot afford two +2 weapons at this level (16,600+ gold). So, TWF guy will have to settle for two +1 weapons instead.
- 22 STR is extremely high at this level. Given you had only +18 at level 1, this means you have to have a +4 STR item (16,000gp), since you only get one stat boost at level 4. Even 20 is very high (requires a 4,000gp item), but since it's not too far off, let's go with that.
- THW guy is a fighter and will likely have Weapon Specialization at this point. TWF guy perhaps, too, but only for a single weapon (his longsword).
Damage with a single hit is 18 for THW (7 + 7 STR + 2 weapon + 2 WS). He attacks at +14/+9 (6 BAB, +5 STR, +2 weapon, +1 WF)
For TWF it's 12.5 (4.5 + 5 STR + 1 weapon + 2 WS) and 6.5 (3.5 + 2 STR + 1 weapon). He attacks at +11/+6/+10 (6 BAB, +5 STR, +1 weapon, +1 WF only for main weapon, -2 TWF).
Average damage on a full attack is:
THW: 22.5 (18 * 75% + 18 * 50%)
TWF: 15.45 (12.5 * 60% + 12.5 * 35% + 6.5 * 55%)
It can't be much clearer than that. THW blows TWF out of the water: over 45% more damage. Yes, on a full attack.
Note that his raw dmg is higher
LOL. What, pray tell, is "raw damage"? Do you mean his damage potential? No, that is lower (it's his average/expected damage). Do you mean maximum damage? No, that's lower as well (46 vs. 41). Yes, even if all attacks hit.
After all these mistakes, I can only assume the rest is wrong as well. On a quick glance, you make the same mistake with the to-hit chance in the other two calculations, assume completely unrealistic wealth for the TWF guy, etc. In other words: bogus.
Also note that you claimed before that the single extra attack from TWF makes TWF equal to THF already. So it seems strange that you include ITWF (and without sacrifices to achieve the required DEX scores, i.e. in a reduction in wealth that you have to spend for ability boosts) all of a sudden.
THW guy will have Power Attack because its required for an uber charger format, and to maximize use on a standard action. All of the feats being used on TWF could be used up on Uber Charger feats,.
Ability scores are a non-argument. We could be playing half-orcs, we could be using potions of bull's strength, we could be getting enlarged. I picked the score because it was easily divisible.
You are also making idiotic comparisons in terms of %. 20% more damage, wow....= 1 pt. WAHOO.
Then you ignore the feat costs in the directions the Uber ChargerMan will be heading and out of the blue give him an extra bonus to hit.
Then you start spamming stats, when an assumption of the style assumes they have 1) whatever minimum stats they need to do what they do and 2) their stats are equal so as not to give either an advantage. You DID notice I held out ITWF until level 11, right?
THEN you start going on about wealth, when we are talking about the style, not about character wealth. I really could care less if it's +1 on the sword or +2. maybe someone is casting GMW on both their blades. FOr purposes of comparison, the swords are equal...deal with it.
The fact remains that as TH goes up over and above what is needed, TWF profits more then Greatsword guy because of those secondary attacks. Any amount of useful secondary damage benefits TWF guy just as much as greatsword guy.
What you basically did at the beginning,c orrecting the math, was fine. Then you went right out and moved the goalposts and changed the parameters of the whole argument. We've already acknowledged the weapon costs and feat costs elsewhere, while ignoring the feat costs of an uber charger build the THW guy will doubtless attempt to move into. His '+2' weapon is probably +1 Valorous, which does him no good in this comparison. See how easy it was to move the goalposts?
IN short, stick with the pure math and quit moving things around to fit your worldview. THW doesn't have a 20% dmg advantage...it has a SLIGHT damage advantage. And at higher levels that advantage tends to go away, especially if we start adding on any sort of dmg feats (like, oh, WEAPON SPEC) that aren't multipled by having a bigger weapon.
Stopping before the levels where TWF really starts equalizing the damage was a smart move on your end, yet completely refudiated your arguments.
==Aelryinth
Ael, how is TWF Guy keeping his stats at the same level as THF Guy, he needs to have high Str and Dex, plus his Weapons cost twice what THF guys does. At level 15 you are spending HALF your WBL on your weapons, I just do not see how you are keeping your scores as high spending twice as much on weapons. So this means in the long run, THW Guy can afford that Belt of Battle, Anklets of Translocation, Reach Gauntlets, etc. Mean while you are going to be struggling to keep up with this as you have an additional weapon to enchant.
Then lets consider that through a variety of means, it is possible to get a charge going almost every round. So, a single level dip into Barb gives us pounce and also gives us an additional attack if we choose to use Whirling Frenzy in place of Rage. Now we can use PA, IBR, Cleave, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, etc. We now are doing significantly more damage than your TWF. Also, as for defense, Improved Buckler Defense. That basically shores up your issue of versatility. Also, if wanted the THW Guy can go the Weapon Spec route as he easily can have the feats to spare. This gives him yet more bonus damage. Remember, if you get to use those feats, so does the other guy.
A properly built THW Guy is going to out damage a TWF Guy. Just the way it works. That is unless you hand wave wealth by level, and just throw an extra +5 Weapon at TWF Guy cause it makes your argument more plausible.
No. He needs to have Dex he can boost to the minimum level neccessary to keep ITWF in force. If he starts with a 15 Dex, that's a +4 booster. If it's a 13 Dex, that's a +6 booster. We can politely allow THW guy to have the same Dex and keep the comparison equal. I did defer it to level 11 for a reason. Maybe he took Magical Craftsman (jewelry) and makes his toys for half price...or he had the party mage do it. THW guy gets the same buff, so I don't really care.
Weapon cost is something that can be gotten around with GMW cast on your toys, if need be. And weapon cost isn't doubled. Two +5 weapons are the same as a +7 weapon, ie. Valorous and say, Keen. If you want to presume the THW guy is tacking the latter on by levels, please feel free to do so. It doesn't really change the raw damage numbers.
If you want to start talking dips we are now advancing outside the paradigm of the comparison, i.e. you are moving the goal posts. we could just as easily grab Pounce to do full attacks on charges, or a level of ranger to save us the cost of a feat and a favored enemy. It's outside the scope of the challenge.
Improved Buckler Defense is one of those broken feats that even CHar Opts doesn't bring up anymore, since it's so ridiculous. You don't even need proficiency with a shield to use it. It's analogous to the feat that let you use a buckler and dagger in one hand in 3.0...and they got rid of that feat.
The fact remains as you add more non-Str, non-PA dmg, TWF looks better and better, because those extra attacks benefit more. The damage gets closer and closer as the enhancement bonuses on the weapons goes up...start adding in things like the weapon spec tree, and TWF starts pulling ahead readily.
==Aelryinth
Also, as for Improved Buckler Defense, it really is no more questionable then any of the other shield feats.
32 PB, No Dragon/Dungeon, lets keep this to the books. Standard Wealth Per level guidelines. So, what do you say Ael, put your build where your mouth is?
I agree with tdsaw, I'd take THF ftw, but Ael if you can show a build that shows (and follows tdsaw's rules) that TWF > THF, I'm sure that will speak louder than this continual thread derailment.
I never have said TWF is better then THW. I've said that the damage they can both put out is about equal, and as fixed dmg goes up, the TWF looks better and better. Naturally, the TWF is going to go looking for TH and fixed dmg.
If you want TWF builds, the board is crawling with them. Jack B. Quick is down below, and he does the job fine if you want overwhelming numbers of AoE attacks. Warblade builds using the high level manuvers and boosts get insane numbers of attacks and extra damage.
On the other end, Uber Charger builds are all over the place, too. My Lockdown build is a THW fighter, because he needs the reach.
I knew this was going to devolve into a 'build' match, people just don't like having numbers staring them in the face with proof. I'll refer you to the Warblade builds for Pouncing Tiger two weapon goodness, and the basic uber charger builds, if you want some kind of competition.
MY point is, TWF is viable and useful. THW is not the be-all and end-all of combat damage.
And yes, Improved buckler Defense is total cheese of a feat. If it even imposed a -TH, it might be balanced, but it doesn't even do that. Improved Shield Bash thematically does the exact same thing...except you get the TWF penalty, and the TWF version of the feat from 3.0 was done away with. IBD is not a valid example to make.
And if you read Jack B Quick, I made all those above arguments. However, it was years ago, and both builds could use the revision. I don't use IBD in ANYTHING anymore...even my Lockdown build. I just assume the DM will not allow such an unbalanced feat. At least with a Dancing Shield, you have to pay extra for the benefit!
==Aelryinth
oh fer chrissake's.
I never have said TWF is better then THW. I've said that the damage they can both put out is about equal, and as fixed dmg goes up, the TWF looks better and better. Naturally, the TWF is going to go looking for TH and fixed dmg.
Ael, repeatedly you have touted how awesome a build Sword and Board is. I am merely suggesting that you show why. You are throwing out there examples with gear costing twice as much as a THW guy would have, and acting like we are fools for not lapping it up. The truth is, using the rules of the game, TWF and Sword and Board, just arent all that special. THW with a buckler is better. Plain and simple. It can achieve the same AC -1, hits MUCH harder, and has a lot more wealth left over for things like Belt of Battle, Gauntlets of Reach, etc. This is why I have difficulty taking anything you say with out a pound of salt. You like to spout off, claiming your side is right/better/whatever, but then refuse to support that. When faced with simple proof, you then claim that it is "cheese" or "munchkin" or that "No DM allows that!" even though these tend to be great exaggeration. I personally have never seen a DM disallow Improved Buckler Defense.
And yes, Improved buckler Defense is total cheese of a feat. If it even imposed a -TH, it might be balanced, but it doesn't even do that. Improved Shield Bash thematically does the exact same thing...except you get the TWF penalty, and the TWF version of the feat from 3.0 was done away with. IBD is not a valid example to make.
And if you read Jack B Quick, I made all those above arguments. However, it was years ago, and both builds could use the revision. I don't use IBD in ANYTHING anymore...even my Lockdown build. I just assume the DM will not allow such an unbalanced feat. At least with a Dancing Shield, you have to pay extra for the benefit!
==Aelryinth
Also, there is a To Hit penalty when using a Buckler. Quoted from the SRD. The only thing the Improved Buckler Defense does is allow you to retain the AC. Nothing about removing the penalty.
Buckler
This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.
Also, if you could show me where you are getting a shield that does 2d6 damage, I would like to see it, the Light Shield, does a 1d4. A Heavy Shield does 1d6, both with spikes. Even if you scaled them one size up, which for the heavy shield makes it a two handed weapon, and the light shield becomes a one handed weapon, you end up with 1d6, 1d8. Just trying to figure out your math there.
Again, Ael, either post a build to show all of us the error of our ways, or stop with the pretentious attitude. Basically, what it boils down to is that a Sword and Boarder is TWF with for 1d8/1d4, unless he is taking the penalty for two one handed weapons at the very least. This is equal to the base damage of a Two Handed Sword. THW Guy adds 1.5xStr, TWF Guy adds Str and .5xStr respectively. The down fall there is hitting both attacks. Then you get into enchanting.
Level 1, assume 16, 14, 16, 12, 10, 8 (32 point buy) for stats. Max Gold for starting.
THW guy: Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Improved Buckler Defense. With basic gear.
AC: 18 (5 Chain Shirt + 1 Buckler + 2 Dex) To Hit: +3 (-1 Buckler -1 Power Attack +1 BAB, +1 WF +3 Str)
Damage: Minimum: 8 Average: 13 Max: 18
TWF Guy: Feats: TWF, Shield Bash, Shield Specialization.
AC 20 (5 Chain Shirt +2 Shield +1 Shield Spec +2 Dex) To Hit: +2 (+3 Str, +1 BAB, -2 TWF)
Damage: Primary: Minimum 4 Avg: 7 Max: 11
Damage: Second: Minimum 2 Avg: 3 Max: 5
Total Damage: Minimum : 6 Avg: 10 Max 16
So, THF has at this level 2 less AC, but 2-3 Damage more per hit.
Level 6:
Fighter 5, Barbarian 1(Lion Totem, Whirling Frenzy) (Hardly the best but didn't want this to be about PRC.)
THW guy: Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Improved Buckler Defense, Shield Spec., Shield Ward, Weapon Spec., Extra Rage. Note, I could easily go with Shock Trooper, but, again, Higher Road and all. With basic gear.
AC: 22 (24) (+2 Whirling Frenzy 7 Breast Plate +2 + 3 Buckler +2 + 2 Dex) To Hit: +4/+1/+4 (-1 Buckler -6 Power Attack +1 Weapon+6 BAB, +1 WF +3 Str additional +2 Str -2 for Frenzy)
Damage: Minimum: 21 (23) Average: 25 (27) Max: 31(33)
With PA -3: To Hit: +7/+2/+7/ Damage: 15(17)/19(21)/25(27)
Other Gear of Note: Belt of Healing, Safewing Emblem, Watch Lamp all found in MIC.
Additionally Lion Totem allows Pounce, Whirling Frenzy gives +4 Str, +2 AC, +2 Ref, an additional attack but all attacks at -2 in place of Rage. Numbers affected will be in Red.
Fighter 6(Really need the feats)
TWF Guy: Feats: TWF, Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, No idea really, you can not qualify for ITWF yet, so I have no idea. Lets say WF WS on both shield and weapon? If you have better please pass it on. And Shield Ward.
AC 23 (7 Chain Shirt+2 +4 Shield+2 +1 Shield Spec +2 Dex) To Hit: +9/+9/+4 (+3 Str, +6 BAB, +1 Weapon, -2 TWF)
Damage: Primary: Minimum 7 Avg: 10 Max: 14
Damage: Second: Minimum 5 Avg: 6 Max: 8
Total Damage: Minimum : 12 Avg: 16 Max 22
Lets Compare: Damage: THW Guy does considerably more damage. Even if he only PA's for 3, he is consistently doing 5 per hit more. Same number of attacks, and only -2 difference on the to hit. Also, actually has 1 better AC. THW Guy can also afford to heal himself for 6d8 damage a day, has a light source that requires no hands, and 1x can Feather Fall.
We can continue to drag this out, but really it only gets better for THW Guy from there. And this is with out charging at all. Which he can do just fine, and in that case, if he hit with all of his attacks would deal 51 damage only PA for 3 assuming avg compared to TWF guy doing 10. In the next several levels the charging line can easily be added and jack that through the roof. Simply adding Shocktrooper would allow for Full PA and bring his AC to 18, which is still not terrible for that level.
Sorry Ael, The truth is with like amounts of money, and being held accountably that the money is being spent fairly, a TWF falls behind from the start. Sure, if they get free stuff they are fine, but otherwise... not so much.
EDIT: One more thing, TWF Guy has to lose the armor when sleeping. Not so for THW Guy. He is ready to go 24/7. Also, I am not claiming to be any great CO guy, if there are flaws in my build, please point them out.
If you chose to use the build above, you would make a pretty decent tank in my view. Obviously, taking feats like Stand Still would be useful. Also, if you wanted to you could either focus on charging, or choose to branch out in a different direction.
Ael, still waiting to hear your reply. Look forward to you clarifying some of the statements you have made. From a flavor point of view, I prefer Sword and Board and TWF, but as I showed, from an optimization point of view, they are just subpar.
EDIT***
Alternately a feat and a couple skill points can get you into Shadow Striker from Complete Champion, a couple nifty abilities and full BAB progression good Fort and Will saves.
THW guy will have Power Attack because its required for an uber charger format, and to maximize use on a standard action. All of the feats being used on TWF could be used up on Uber Charger feats.
So your "fair" comparison is comparing a guy getting a useful feat and the other doesn't? LOL
Also: nobody talked aobut Ueberchargers. And even if so, he doesn't need PA at level 1, where it's entirely useless. If he really wants to go that route, he can simply retrain later instead of gimping himself.
Ability scores are a non-argument. We could be playing half-orcs, we could be using potions of bull's strength, we could be getting enlarged. I picked the score because it was easily divisible.
Hardly. Your very own assumption was 18 stength at level 1. With that, it's impossible to get 22 at level 6. So, one of the two was unrealistic. Picking half-orcs doesn't change a thing. And your other options are circumstantial and not sustainable, i.e. not fit for a fair comparison.
For fair comparisons, numbers should be chosen according to how realistic they are, not how convenient the math is.
Then you start spamming stats, when an assumption of the style assumes they have 1) whatever minimum stats they need to do what they do and 2) their stats are equal so as not to give either an advantage.
I don't understand what you are talking about. Are you claiming there's something wrong with the assumptions or the RAW? Then please say so.
THEN you start going on about wealth, when we are talking about the style, not about character wealth. I really could care less if it's +1 on the sword or +2. maybe someone is casting GMW on both their blades. FOr purposes of comparison, the swords are equal...deal with it.
It doesn't matter if you care or not. The fact is that TWF guy simply won't have these weapons at level 6. Good comparisons exclude external factors, as those are arbitrary and cannot be guaranteed in actual play.
It's also entirely unrealistic to even assume that he does get GMW cast on him. At level 6, that's the highest level spell his spellcasting buddies (if he even has any!) can cast. To last all day, he needs 4 (FOUR) castings of GMW, which is more than your average cleric or wizard can cast per day. Even if you only want that boost for a short time (half a day), I strongly doubt that your buddy is willing to give up more than half his highest level spells, just so you can almost keep up with Mr. THW, who is completely self/sufficient in this matter. In other words, it's a completely bogus/unrealistic assumtion that skews the results in your favor.
The fact remains that as TH goes up over and above what is needed, TWF profits more then Greatsword guy because of those secondary attacks. Any amount of useful secondary damage benefits TWF guy just as much as greatsword guy.
You keep claiming that, but that doesn't make it true. The numbers clearly show otherwise. In fact, even with your unrealistic assumptions, the THF guys does clearly more damage at this level.
What you basically did at the beginning,c orrecting the math, was fine. Then you went right out and moved the goalposts and changed the parameters of the whole argument. We've already acknowledged the weapon costs and feat costs elsewhere, while ignoring the feat costs of an uber charger build the THW guy will doubtless attempt to move into. His '+2' weapon is probably +1 Valorous, which does him no good in this comparison. See how easy it was to move the goalposts?
IN short, stick with the pure math and quit moving things around to fit your worldview. THW doesn't have a 20% dmg advantage...it has a SLIGHT damage advantage. And at higher levels that advantage tends to go away, especially if we start adding on any sort of dmg feats (like, oh, WEAPON SPEC) that aren't multipled by having a bigger weapon.
Moving goalposts? You are the one who gives the TWF guy unrealistic wealth that renders the entire comparison moot. Why not just give him two epic weapons?
With the (corrected, where necessary) numbers you provided, THF does over 20% more damage at level 1 and over 45% more damage at level 6. If you call that "slight" or not is your decision, but it's without a doubt a considerable advantage.
And let me point out (yet again) that this is for full-round attacks, which are hardly a given, especially at these levels. In single attacks, THF has clear the advantage anyway.
To sum up: your point that the single extra attack from TWF morev than makes up for the penalties has been disproven (again), at least for levels 1 and 6. With you own (albeit somewhat corrected) numbers.
At level 15, AC 25, Str 26, +5 weapons. ITWF BAse TH = 15+8+5 = +23
THW: 95/70/45 = 210% of 7+12+5 = 24, or about 50 dmg.
85/60/35 = 180% of 4.5+8+5 = 17.5, or about 32.
85/60 of 3.5+4+5 = 145% of 12.5, or about 18. Combined = 50 dmg. SPot on...with a much higher upside to TWF guy if he actually lands all his attacks.
AC 25 is LOW. AC 30 shifts things.
70/45/20 = 135% of 24, or 32 for THF
60/35/10 of 17.5 = 10%, or 18, + 60/35 of 12.5 = 12, or 30 combined dmg. THW has a 2 pt edge as AC goes up. With 2 pt more of dmg, THW is better.
More unrealistic assumptions. And to-hit chances 5% off again.
Given wealth guidelines, it's likely more realistic that TWF guy has two +4 weapons - if that. Since he also needs DEX boosting items, that is already quite a stretch, but let's go for it anyway. However, the TWF guy needs a +1 to give his off-hand weapon and Aptitude enhancement, so it's +3 Aptitude.
The target AC should be 29-30, given how AC of typical MM critters works. So let's use the 30 already used in the (unrealistic) comparison by Ael.
Damage with a single hit is 26 for THW (7 + 12 STR + 5 weapon + 2 WS). He attacks at +29/+24/+19 (15 BAB, +8 STR, +5 weapon, +1 WF).
For TWF it's 18.5 (4.5 + 8 STR + 4 weapon + 2 WS) and 12.5 (3.5 + 4 STR + 3 weapon + 2 WS). He attacks at +26/+21/+16/+25/+20 (15 BAB, +8 STR, +4 weapon, +1 WF, -2 TWF). The off-hand weapon is only +3.
Average damage on a full attack is:
THW: 55.7 (26 * 95% + 26 * 75% + 26 * 50%)
TWF: 50.2 (18.5 * 85% + 18.5 * 60% + 18.5 * 35% + 12.5 * 80% + 12.5 * 55%)
If we assume just a DR of five that the fighter can´t overcome, the damage is 46.2 vs. 34.4, clearly in favor or Mr. THF.
Again, THF is superior, despite the second extra attack. Ael got the same result, but a smaller margin.
GTWF, Str 30, BAB 20, +5 Weapons. AC 35.
An in-depth comparison has been given in Post#38. You are neglecting typical feats, are being too generous with TWF guy and discount the cost of fullfilling ability prerequisites. THW guy comes out ahead. If you are considering typical encounters for that level, you are faced with DR15/you-don't-have-it, making THF guy win even clearer.
And again, this is only in the case you actually do get a full attack off, which is all but a given. If you don't, THF guy wins all the time.
You are, in effect manipulating the criteria to 'win'. I strictly abided by style, stats and AC to-hit for all comparisons, while you chose to nitpick.
And if you even bothered to crunch the Power Attack numbers, you'd find that using Power Attack makes THF damage go DOWN, not up. Power Attack is generally only viable on Standard Attack actions.
I'm also not putting in the Weapon Spec feats anywhere, because we are talking about a style. weapon specialization is not part of THW style. Most of the optimizers on the boards would argue that Power Attack and the Uber Charger feats are...and that's 4 feats eaten up right there, which are also only useful on a charge!
And as for Shield damage, you obviously don't know what an Uber Shield can do. Base Heavy Shield is 1-6, with Spikes it is a size larger, and with Bash, another size larger. Thus, Small Spiked Shield of Bashing = 1-8, and Heavy Spiked Shield of Bashing = 2-12.
I'm also not worried about Full Attack actions given how easy it is to acquire Pounce or something similar.
And unless the feat has changed, from Complete Warrior:
Improved Buckler Defense
You can attack with an off-hand weapon while retaining a buckler's shield bonus to your Armor Class.
Prerequisite: Shield Proficiency.
Benefit: When you attack with a weapon in your off-hand, you may still apply your buckler's shield bonus to your Armor Class.
Special: A fighter may select Improved Buckler Defense as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Normal: Without this feat, a character wielding a buckler who attacks with an off-hand weapon loses the buckler's shield bonus to AC until his or her next turn.
Note this feat says nothign about a Greatsworder/THW. The variants I've read had the ACP applying to weapon blows...which is 0 with a mithral or darkwood buckler. Strictly speaking, your THW guy can't even use this feat, as he's not attacking with a weapon in his off hand.
==Aelryinth
as you impolitely skewed the numbers, yours are off and thus irrelevant. You cannot move the goalpost and call it a fair comparison. My numbers, especially at later levels, stand as they are.
You are, in effect manipulating the criteria to 'win'. I strictly abided by style, stats and AC to-hit for all comparisons, while you chose to nitpick.
And if you even bothered to crunch the Power Attack numbers, you'd find that using Power Attack makes THF damage go DOWN, not up. Power Attack is generally only viable on Standard Attack actions.
I'm also not putting in the Weapon Spec feats anywhere, because we are talking about a style. weapon specialization is not part of THW style. Most of the optimizers on the boards would argue that Power Attack and the Uber Charger feats are...and that's 4 feats eaten up right there, which are also only useful on a charge!
And as for Shield damage, you obviously don't know what an Uber Shield can do. Base Heavy Shield is 1-6, with Spikes it is a size larger, and with Bash, another size larger. Thus, Small Spiked Shield of Bashing = 1-8, and Heavy Spiked Shield of Bashing = 2-12.
I'm also not worried about Full Attack actions given how easy it is to acquire Pounce or something similar.
And unless the feat has changed, from Complete Warrior:
Improved Buckler DefenseYou can attack with an off-hand weapon while retaining a buckler's shield bonus to your Armor Class.
Prerequisite: Shield Proficiency.
Benefit: When you attack with a weapon in your off-hand, you may still apply your buckler's shield bonus to your Armor Class.
Special: A fighter may select Improved Buckler Defense as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Normal: Without this feat, a character wielding a buckler who attacks with an off-hand weapon loses the buckler's shield bonus to AC until his or her next turn.
Note this feat says nothign about a Greatsworder/THW. The variants I've read had the ACP applying to weapon blows...which is 0 with a mithral or darkwood buckler. Strictly speaking, your THW guy can't even use this feat, as he's not attacking with a weapon in his off hand.
==Aelryinth
Did you bother to read my post? There are other alternatives to Charging for a THW guy. I intentionally did not take the charging feats to show that with out them I still can do more damage and have a better AC. So I did not waste any feats on a charge.
Also, the piece about bucklers that I quoted was directly from the SRD. Nothing about ACP, it is a -1 to attacks while wearing it.
If you have a two handed weapon, is the weapon in both your primary and your off-hand? Yes. Therefore the feat applies. But, even if you want to strip the feat, fine, for the same price, a +1 Animated Heavy Shield. Or even better, a +1 Animated Tower Shield. This actually gives me a +5 Shield AC, which puts my AC 3 points higher than the TWF Guy. Also, I now have a feat open. I guess I could go for Dodge? Another point of AC.
I am not seeing a Spikes enhancement. But I am assuming that you mean a Spiked Shield. If you use a Heavy Spiked Shield, then you are taking the penalty for fighting with two one-handed weapons. And, a light Spiked Shield of bashing, only does 1d8, 1d4-> 1d6->1d8. A heavy spiked shield then does 2d6, albeit with a -4/-4 penalty. This brings your attacks from my example to +5/+5/+0. Again lower than mine. Also that Bashing enhancement drops your AC by an additional 1. Now my guy has an AC 5 points higher. And with the -4/-4 is more likely to hit on his attacks, and actually has the availability of Pounce if he needs it. I fail to see where your guy is superior in any fashion. I have a better AC, Better miscellaneous benefits such as a healing belt, and our damage is similar.
Ael, please give me a refence if you mean some other type of shield. But please show me where your build is superior. I just fail to see it.
And if you start on how broken an animated shield is please, don't waste anyones time. I am talking about RAW. Not house rules. If you see fit to eliminate every option that a THW user has in your games that is fine, but it is hardly useful in a generalized discussion. Fact is it is an enhancement available from the Core Rule Books, and I have never seen a DM disallow it. So please, keep your house rules to your self and debate on the merit of the rules as presented in the book.
as you impolitely skewed the numbers, yours are off and thus irrelevant.
Translation: Your (Ael's) numbers don't work, so you declare everything else "irrelevant". Congratulations, you have shown once again that you can't back up your claims.
I strictly abided by style, stats and AC to-hit for all comparisons, while you chose to nitpick.
By giving the TWF guy (the one you favor) items he cannot possibly possess in a normal game? LOL.
In general: if you see a flaw in someone's argument, point it out. Blanket statements such as yours only show that you either don't understand or don't want to understand an example.
And if you even bothered to crunch the Power Attack numbers, you'd find that using Power Attack makes THF damage go DOWN, not up. Power Attack is generally only viable on Standard Attack actions.
Never claimed anything about PA, except that it's a waste at level 1. Did you actually read my posts?
And as for Shield damage, you obviously don't know what an Uber Shield can do. Base Heavy Shield is 1-6, with Spikes it is a size larger, and with Bash, another size larger. Thus, Small Spiked Shield of Bashing = 1-8, and Heavy Spiked Shield of Bashing = 2-12.
So your weapon assumptions just got even more expensive and thus more unrealistic?
Also, if you use a heavy shield, your attack penalties are doubled, since a heavy shield is not treated as a light weapon, but as a one-handed weapon.
I'm also not worried about Full Attack actions given how easy it is to acquire Pounce or something similar.
It's actually not too easy for a straight fighter (which is apparently what you want to compare). Even then, getting full attacks off is not a given. Difficult terrain, blocked charging paths, etc. will make pounce useless. Heck a single foe with Standstill can ruin your day. Steadfast Boots (very cheap) will make you pay dearly for your charge.
Strictly speaking, your THW guy can't even use this feat, as he's not attacking with a weapon in his off hand.
A fighter using both hands to attack with a weapon is using his off hand to attack with a weapon. If he weren't holding a weapon in his off-hand, we wouldn't be fighting two-handedly.
- The numbers show that TWF fares poorly in terms of damage when compared to TWF, confirming the CO rule that TWF is not a great tactic unless you have a bonus source, such a sneak attack. If you, however, assume unrealistic wealth for the TWF guy and sub-optimal feat choices for the TWF guy, TWF can come close to THF.
- These numbers are for the case that you actually always get a full attack off, which is all but a given - even with pounce. If you don't, THF wins all the time.
- These numbers assume a considerable feat investment on the TWF side, as well as a considerable expenditure in DEX (starting stats and/or items) that the THF side doesn't need (and can, in fact, use to substantially improve his damage output or shore up weaknesses).
- TWF requires two weapons (thank you, Captain Obvious!), resulting in a substantially higher costs for this fighting style. Given that the off-hand weapon (a shield) needs the Aptitude and Bashing enhancements, it will have a much lower attack and damage bonus.
- DR penalizes the damage output of TWF much more heavily than that of THF.
- TWF supposed improved flexibility regarding THF is completely negated by a single feat (Improved Buckler Defense). Yes, Ael thinks it's broken, but it's a legit feat that hasn't seen any errata even though it's been out for most of 3.5's lifetime. Another option to dupliate (actually: overcome) the benefits of TWF with shield vs. THF is to spend that money for the off-hand weapon (the shield) on an animated shield.
- The great "Ueber" 2-12 damage shield Ael keeps mentioning is a heavy spiked shield with the Bashing enhancement. Looks good at first (as much damage as a greatsword!), until you realize that using it results in even higher to-hit penalties (which are a bad idea, see Monkey Grip) and that it makes TWF's already extensive weapon costs even more prohibitive. Also, since it's an off-hand weapon, you only get 1/2 your strength instead of 1.5 as a damage bonus.
So, Ael, I really, really hope you do put your money/nuild where your mouth is and take up tdsaw111's offer for a fair comparison involving real builds. Perhaps you can actually pull it off, but from what you have posted so far I strongly doubt it. However, it would certainly be more contructive than your 'this feat/comparison/etc. is unfair because I say so and therefore I win - nya, nya!' "arguments".
In any case, I think we all might learn something from it.
An Uber SHield and weapon +7 costs the same as a +10 weapon. It doesn't leave Greatsword guy any extra money to get a shield, especially an Animated Shield. Which, at least, you acknowledge as cheese, but you're arguing playability on one hand and RAW on the other, and not meeting in the middle.
An animated Tower Shield will impose a -4 TH penalty on Mr. Greatsword guy, at the very least. Go ahead and use one, you'll definitely lose the damage contest now.
Spikes is not an enchantment, but Shield Spikes are used in a bash attack, and so increased by Bash.
You moving the goalposts does not invalidate my arguments. We are talking about a fighting style, and you're moving the criteria around. I've acknowledged TWF has problems in areas of cost and feat use to maximize, but those aren't a part of a pure damage comparison of the style. Yet you keep bringing them in when I've very delibrately pointed out they are outside the bounds of what we are doing, and picking specific level points where all the math favors THF doesn't do your argument much better, either...and I even pointed out why THW is better at those levels.
Your Power Attack doesn't work because a -2 to hit for +4 to damage results in -40% at the high end to your total damage. Which is why I never brought it up. Your argument with other feats keeps falling flat because the feats you mention are generic feats, not THW feats. TWF can take them too, the only feats he wouldn't take are those that cater to THW fighting. The Spec Tree definitely helps out TWF more then THW. In terms of 'reality', that's what you are looking at.
I just looked at the SRD, and there is no Improved Buckler Defense. The 3.5 feat came out of COmplete Warrior. Are you looking at the 4E SRD, by any chance? I quoted the feat off Dandello's.
==Aelryinth
Agile Shield Fighter will reduce the penalties for Shield Fighting to nil
Kindly re-read the feat.
An Uber SHield and weapon +7 costs the same as a +10 weapon.
So now the TWF doesn't have two weapons of equal power to the THF guy? You keep changing your point (i.e., moving goalposts) all the time.
Fact is: either the TWF guy has lower-quality weapons and the TWF has a more effective weapon, or TWF guy has two weapons of equal quality to THF guy, in which case THF guy has a lot of money to spend on an animated shield.
You moving the goalposts does not invalidate my arguments. We are talking about a fighting style, and you're moving the criteria around.
Are you sure you aren't posting in the wrong thread again?
You made the claim that the single extra attack from TWF more than makes up for the penalties. That was proven wrong. You still claimed it anyway. When asked to show some numbers, you provide flawed calculations (too much wealth for TWF guy, unrealistic assumptions) that not only include TWF but also ITWF and GTWF. When corrected, you proceed to call several standard fighter options (Improved Buckler Defense, animated shield) broken (for whatever reason) or not valid due to being not in the SRD - despite the fact that most of the feats your shield guy requires are not in there, either.
So, who's moving goalposts here?
Again, I'd really like to see an actual build from you that does everything you claim TWF can do without breaking the rules.
Agile Shield Fighter will reduce the penalties for Shield Fighting to nil, if the TH becomes a problem, and you don't want to use a heavy shield.The Str bonus can be reversed, as you like, with the SHield being the primary weapon, and using a SHortsword as your off-hand weapon, completely obviating all those TWF penalties entirely.
An Uber SHield and weapon +7 costs the same as a +10 weapon. It doesn't leave Greatsword guy any extra money to get a shield, especially an Animated Shield. Which, at least, you acknowledge as cheese, but you're arguing playability on one hand and RAW on the other, and not meeting in the middle.
An animated Tower Shield will impose a -4 TH penalty on Mr. Greatsword guy, at the very least. Go ahead and use one, you'll definitely lose the damage contest now.
Spikes is not an enchantment, but Shield Spikes are used in a bash attack, and so increased by Bash.
You moving the goalposts does not invalidate my arguments. We are talking about a fighting style, and you're moving the criteria around. I've acknowledged TWF has problems in areas of cost and feat use to maximize, but those aren't a part of a pure damage comparison of the style. Yet you keep bringing them in when I've very delibrately pointed out they are outside the bounds of what we are doing, and picking specific level points where all the math favors THF doesn't do your argument much better, either...and I even pointed out why THW is better at those levels.
Your Power Attack doesn't work because a -2 to hit for +4 to damage results in -40% at the high end to your total damage. Which is why I never brought it up. Your argument with other feats keeps falling flat because the feats you mention are generic feats, not THW feats. TWF can take them too, the only feats he wouldn't take are those that cater to THW fighting. The Spec Tree definitely helps out TWF more then THW. In terms of 'reality', that's what you are looking at.
I just looked at the SRD, and there is no Improved Buckler Defense. The 3.5 feat came out of COmplete Warrior. Are you looking at the 4E SRD, by any chance? I quoted the feat off Dandello's.
==Aelryinth
Ael, I never said there was an Improved Buckler Defense in the SRD. I quoted the section on Bucklers in the equipment section. Bucklers universally by their own description impose -1 to hit.
Also, those feats that you say are generic and your guy can get too... how? He has to spend his feats on the slew of feats you already mentioned. What you fail to realize is a THW user does not have to be a charger to be effective. Certainly that raise the bar damage wise, but there are other routes that he can take. He is just as versatile as anyone.
Further, not sure where you are getting the -4 to hit from an animated tower shield. I still suffer ACP, Spell Failure, and nonproficiency penalties, all of which are moot. No where in the description for Animated does it say you suffer a penalty to hit. You really are stretching there. Pretty sure if you were meant to take a penalty to attacks that would be mentioned in the description. Though it does mention you have free use of both hands. Which means you can freely THW fight.
So lets see what MY THF would look like at level 15 shall we?
Jim the THF Guy:
Human Fighter 14, Barbarian 1(Lion Totem, Whirling Frenzy)
WBL: 200K
Stats:
Base: Modified to:
STR 16 21 (3 bumps via Level +2 Item) Goes to 25 when in Whirling Frenzy.
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 10
CHA 8
AC: 10 +3(Dex) +8(Mithral Full Plate) +5(Armor Enhancement) +4(Tower Shield) +4(Shield Enhancement) +1 (Shield Spec.) +2(Whirling Frenzy) +4 (Ring of Protection+4) +1 (Amulet of Natural Armor+1) AC 42 Total cost 116,650 GP
Weapon: +5 Greatsword (50,000 GP )
Total Spent: Weapons: 50,000 Armor: 116,650= 166,650 GP
Leaves 31,350 open to spend.
+2 Str/+2 Dex Gloves 8k(per pricing rules in MIC), Belt of Battle 12k, Great Reach Bracers 2k, Belt of Healing 750,Armor Crystal of Restful Sleep 500, Boots of the Battle Charger 2k. Total Spent 25,250.
Leaves 8,150 available.
Feats/Class Features:
Level 1: H: Power Attack, 1st: Shield Spec: Tower Shield, F1: Weapon Focus,
Level 2: Barbarian (Whirling Frenzy, Lion Totem)
Level 3: F2: Improved BullRush
Level 4: Fighter 3
Level 5: F4: Weapon Spec.
Level 6: Fighter 5 6th level Feat: Leap Attack
Level 7: F6: Shock Trooper
Level 8: Fighter 7
Level 9: F8:Melee Weapon Mastery (slashing) Level 9 Feat: Extra Rage
Level 10: Fighter 9
Level 11: F10: Shield Ward
Level 12: Fighter 11. Level 12 Feat: Greater Weapon Focus
Level 13: F12: Greater Weapon Spec
Level 14: Fighter 13
Level 15: Figher 14: Close Quarters Fighting Level 15 Feat: Slashing Fury
Ok. Number crunching time.
I have 4 Whirling Frenzy uses per day, so by the suggested Encounters per day, I will always be able to Frenzy.
Full Attack with Whirling Frenzy No PA: 15/10/5 BAB, +2 WF, +6 Str, -2 Frenzy, + 2 Melee Weapon Mastery, +5 Enhancement -5 Slashing Fury= 23/23/23/18/13
Damage: 2d6 With Greatsword +10 Str +4 Spec +5 Weapon Enhancement, +2 Melee Weapon Mastery +30=58 average per hit. Total damage if all hit: 190
I can PA for full, and my AC drops to 27, however I can deal 165-215 Damage per round. And if I am charging I am not going to bother extrapolating the damage(Leap Attack).
Again, before you say that it is not applicable to use the Weapon Focus tree, just stop. It is a benefit of the style that I have the feats available. You can not say it is unfair to figure in feats that a THW guy has available to him, that because of the focus of your TWF you do not. And Agile Shield Fighter does not reduce your penalty to nil, it is a -2 to hit if you are using a shield and another weapon. Fair enough, but that is just as big a difference as IBD. If you are aguing that a THF cannot use IBD, I am going to fire back that you can't use Agile Shield Fighter either.
So, to recap, my THF is going in with an AC 42. With PA he is hitting for 58 points of damage per hit. One more attack than you get as well. I get 3 attacks for average of 58 damage each at my highest BAB, you do not. I am still going to be better damage per round than a TWF. I also have options in combat built in. I have a Belt of Battle which, at very least is going to give me an additional full round action once per day. Boot of the Battle Charger allow me to charge over difficult terrain with out issue. What exactly would you have? Well if you want to enchant both weapons, armor and shield, then you would lose the vast majority of that. Also, note that if you go Agile Shield over TWF, you cannot take advantage of any of the other TWF based feats.
EDITED: Was very late here when initially written,went through many drafts and some things had to be added or omitted as that was done. Some things I editted poorly, my apologies.
Further, not sure where you are getting the -4 to hit from an animated tower shield. I still suffer ACP, Spell Failure, and nonproficiency penalties, all of which are moot. No where in the description for Animated does it say you suffer a penalty to hit. You really are stretching there. Pretty sure if you were meant to take a penalty to attacks that would be mentioned in the description. Though it does mention you have free use of both hands. Which means you can freely THW fight.
I could be wrong but I think he was trying to cite the cover that a tower shield would provide.
[edit]
Merry Christmas and happy holidays!
Further, not sure where you are getting the -4 to hit from an animated tower shield. I still suffer ACP, Spell Failure, and nonproficiency penalties, all of which are moot. No where in the description for Animated does it say you suffer a penalty to hit. You really are stretching there. Pretty sure if you were meant to take a penalty to attacks that would be mentioned in the description. Though it does mention you have free use of both hands. Which means you can freely THW fight.
I could be wrong but I think he was trying to cite the cover that a tower shield would provide.
[edit]
Merry Christmas and happy holidays!
You must choose to use the option of Full Cover. Otherwise it only gives you +4 AC, no cover. By choosing to use it for cover you give up attacks. So the cover aspect of it would be a moot point.
This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so. The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else.
When employing a tower shield in combat, you take a -2 penalty on attack rolls because of the shield’s encumbrance.
An Animated Shield is treated as if you are wielding it directly. So you suffer all the penalties of employing it even though you are hands off it. That includes the attack penalty.
Agile Shield Fighter replaces the TWF penalties with a straight -2 TH, which obviates your -4/-4. It also doesn't require a high Dex. Regardless, you can get around the restriction by making it the primary weapon, and the off hand a shortsword.
THe buckler's AC does not accrue to you in any round that you use the off-hand for any person other then defense, AND you take the -1 to hit. A THW guy doing this is essentially giving up his damage advantage, and when is he going to have his hand free to use the Buckler?
There are literally dozens of TWF builds on this board. Posting another one is kind of moot. There are people who do it better, and people who do THW builds better...mostly uber charger builds.
The Core of the TWF style is three feats....TWF, ITWF and GTWF. That's it, that's all I was using for my comparisons. Sure, there are numerous ways you can start building on this, but that's all the damage comparison I was aiming for. Unless you start adding feats that don't work with a TWF build, I've got plenty of feats to keep adding.
And with just the core feats, the style measures up equitably to THW on full attack actions, and surpasses it at later levels. And as you all mentioned at the beginning of the thread, if there is any bonus damage to attacks, TWF looks better and better and better.
Does spending three feats on TWF hurt elsewhere? Well, duh! Does it synergize nicely with a SHield build for better dmg and AC while fighting? Yes, it does. Almost ridiculously so, since a shield is the best off-hand weapon there is...and can be a primary weapon, and a THW, to boot!
THW owes it's dominance to cheap feat cost, single weapon, and ruling standard actions damage...not to outstripping TWF on full attacks. Really, the best use of THW is the charge attack for lots of damage off a single hit, its unbeatable doing that re: the other styles.
Ideally, a proper shield fighter is going to be employing all three styles - two handing the shield for bashes on charges, going for uber defense when tanking, and going TWF when needing maximum damage. Note that the THW guy does not HAVE two of those options, nor will he have the same AC without also spending resources on it.
Lastly, I've made the point at least twice now that two +7 weapons cost the same as a +10. An uber shield costs the same as a +7 weapon. Ancestral Relic can actually obviate part of that, if you want to spend the feat on it, because you can eventually get a +10/+10 shield at 300k, and the only way to really do that is to halve the cost of making it, at least pre-Epic.
===Aelryinth
I do not need to have a hand free to use a buckler. I can take Improved Buckler Defense. Which, as you know, aleviates the need to have the hand free. Or I can take an animated Tower Shield. It is also questionable whether or not the penalty applies, as it is not a penalty associated with shield use such as nonproficiency, armor check penalty and arcane spell failure, as directly quoted. It is a hindrance based on the encumbrance the shield causes, as per the description of tower shield. As it is not encumbering, does the penalty apply? I read the quoted line from Animated property to be a defining sentence, that is that it defines what applies. But never the less, lets roll with it your way, I take -2. Ok. No problem. I still have +21/+21/+21/+16/+11 and dealing 58 damage a hit.
Ael, both myself and Tytalus have refuted your claims and shown our work. If you are not willing to do the same, then you have lost any semblance of an arguement. It is not generally acceptable to just throw out information with out showing your work. If you can make a build better than what I presented, then do so. Show me the error of our ways. But I would argue you can not. I take the fact that you refuse to do so as verification to such.
Ael, please, post a build. You dont seem to be able to because what you propose does not work.
+1.
I am actually quite eager to see if you can manage to get everything you mentioned into a single build. Kudos if you can, but it sure doesn't look like it.
Sure, it's easy to say that feat X can help alleviate a single particular problem of a build, but you already use so many that it doesn't seem feasible. E.g., you need the TWF chain (3 feats), the Shield chain (otherwise your point about heightened flexibility and better AC is moot; 5+ feats have been mentioned), apparently the WS chain (2++ feats) and several others (Ancestral Relic is just the last one).
It's the same issue for items. You need much more money, and theat your math is occasionally off here (i.e., way above normal character wealth) has been shown. Your off-hand weapon alone better be a +5 Bashing Aptitude shield. For that money, the THF guy can get a nice +5 Collision Greatsword for an extra +5 damage. And you still need your primary weapon.
And finally there is still the full attack issue. If you can not guarantee a full attack (if you can, please show how) and only get one in say 75% of the time, whatever comparative advantage you might have (if any) shrinks considerably since THF beats TWF in single attacks all the time.
Ael, please, post a build. You dont seem to be able to because what you propose does not work.
I do not need to have a hand free to use a buckler. I can take Improved Buckler Defense. Which, as you know, aleviates the need to have the hand free. Or I can take an animated Tower Shield. It is also questionable whether or not the penalty applies, as it is not a penalty associated with shield use such as nonproficiency, armor check penalty and arcane spell failure, as directly quoted. It is a hindrance based on the encumbrance the shield causes, as per the description of tower shield. As it is not encumbering, does the penalty apply? I read the quoted line from Animated property to be a defining sentence, that is that it defines what applies. But never the less, lets roll with it your way, I take -2. Ok. No problem. I still have +21/+21/+21/+16/+11 and dealing 58 damage a hit.
Ael, both myself and Tytalus have refuted your claims and shown our work. If you are not willing to do the same, then you have lost any semblance of an arguement. It is not generally acceptable to just throw out information with out showing your work. If you can make a build better than what I presented, then do so. Show me the error of our ways. But I would argue you can not. I take the fact that you refuse to do so as verification to such.
Your buckler defense method doesn't work. the way the feat is written only applies to TWF, not THW.
The shield is treated as if you are directly wielding it, which means it is getting in your way. It's big and bulky...that's what encumbering means, not that it's weighing down your shield arm. it is a penalty associated with wielding a Tower Shield. It's not included in the list you give because it's the only shield that has a penalty just to hold onto it, yet it clearly satisfies all the parameters of the ruling.
I already showed you my work. I took stated parameters and made a direct comparison of style to style. What you did is move the comparison to another field, and I, in turn, pointed out to you that there's tons of other fields out there if you want to keep moving the game. I do not feel at all obligated to jump to your field, and you, in turn, seem to find no reason to look at the others, either. I count us even.
And my original comparison wasn't even made using a shield, but a standard daisho set. +2.5 dmg with a bashing spiked shield also helps even the game.
===Aelryinth
Your buckler defense method doesn't work. the way the feat is written only applies to TWF, not THW.
The shield is treated as if you are directly wielding it, which means it is getting in your way. It's big and bulky...that's what encumbering means, not that it's weighing down your shield arm. it is a penalty associated with wielding a Tower Shield. It's not included in the list you give because it's the only shield that has a penalty just to hold onto it, yet it clearly satisfies all the parameters of the ruling.
I already showed you my work. I took stated parameters and made a direct comparison of style to style. What you did is move the comparison to another field, and I, in turn, pointed out to you that there's tons of other fields out there if you want to keep moving the game. I do not feel at all obligated to jump to your field, and you, in turn, seem to find no reason to look at the others, either. I count us even.
And my original comparison wasn't even made using a shield, but a standard daisho set. +2.5 dmg with a bashing spiked shield also helps even the game.
===Aelryinth
Actually it states that you have to have a weapon in your off hand. Which, with a TWO handed weapon you indeed do have a weapon in your off hand.
Improved Buckler Defense
You can attack with an off-hand weapon while retaining a buckler's shield bonus to your Armor Class.
Prerequisite: Shield Proficiency.
Benefit: When you attack with a weapon in your off-hand, you may still apply your buckler's shield bonus to your Armor Class.
Special: A fighter may select Improved Buckler Defense as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Normal: Without this feat, a character wielding a buckler who attacks with an off-hand weapon loses the buckler's shield bonus to AC until his or her next turn.
Lets go over this... Do I have proficiency with the buckler? Yes. Okay, then I meet the prerequisites. Am I using a weapon in my off hand when attacking two handed. Yes, now note that it only requires that there be an attack with a weapon in your off hand, not that you be TWF. So, again, by the RULES I meet the prerequisites, I meet the eligibility, I can use the feat.
Further I stipulated that I did not mind taking the -2 to hit from the tower shield. I still am swinging at 21/21/21/16/11 Your Agile Shield basher is getting only 4 attacks, and because you have to spend money on a second weapon, you do not have those funds available to buy stat boosters, which I can, so you are attacking less, at a worse modifier. 16 Str, Agile Shield Fighter, BAB= 16/16/11/6 if we assume you manage to scrounge up enough gold to get +5 weapons, you are then at 21/21/16/11. I still make an additional attack than you, at my highest bonus. For more damage.
Post your work. I have yet to see anything resembling a build from you.
I'm not seeing a build. I'll keep looking.
+1, I too am awaiting a build so this can be put to rest.
If you can't find any two weapon fighter builds, you aren't looking very hard. THere's a bunch stickied in the thread compilation at the top of the board.
==Aelryinth
WIelding a weapon in two hands is not wielding a weapon in your off hand. Arguing otherwise is just trying to stretch the definition of the feat. If it meant two handed weapons, it would have included "or using both hands to wield a weapon" in the definition of the feat.
If you can't find any two weapon fighter builds, you aren't looking very hard. THere's a bunch stickied in the thread compilation at the top of the board.
==Aelryinth
You made them all? And they all beat the THW build, despite the math of the others in CharOp who showed otherwise?
WIelding a weapon in two hands is not wielding a weapon in your off hand. Arguing otherwise is just trying to stretch the definition of the feat. If it meant two handed weapons, it would have included "or using both hands to wield a weapon" in the definition of the feat.
If you can't find any two weapon fighter builds, you aren't looking very hard. THere's a bunch stickied in the thread compilation at the top of the board.
==Aelryinth
How are you not wielding a weapon in your off hand when wielding it with both hands? More likely, it would explicitly rule it out in the feat if you could not do so. If I am holding a greatsword, and am attacking with it, I am holding it in BOTH hands. Therefore, I am making an attack with a weapon in my off hand. Therefore, Improved Buckler Defense is applicable. It really doesn't matter however, as I said I was perfectly willing to take the -2. And still you evade giving solid proof of your position and instead attempt to distract by bringing up things that are not related to the discussion. You can try to distract all you want, it just shows that you do not have a leg to stand on.
It is like a small child that insists, despite being covered in cookie crumbs, face smudged with chocolate, that they didn't take a cookie from the cookie jar, and simply says, "Hey, look over there!" And then retreats to their favorite hiding place.
Either post a build of your own using the parameters given, or just concede that you made a mistake, perhaps spoke hastily, and move on. If you can show me where your build is better I will apologize and tout this as a lesson learned. However, if you can not, which seems to be the case given your reluctance, then I would expect you to do the same.
I have presented to you a build that routinely does 150+ damage/round, no charging shenanigans. Has an AC of 42, and has versatility in not only weapons used, but also in self sufficiency. Limited healing capabilities, can charge even over rough terrain, or can turtle it out. Given that I do not rely on charging, I can easily shift out the Leap Attack Feat, instead take Stand Still.
So Ael, either admit you are wrong, or show me a better build given the parameters laid forth. Your build needs an AC of 43 or better, needs to dish out at least an average of 191 points of damage a round, and have equal or better to hits(21/21/21/16/11).
==Aelryinth
"Damage: 2d6 With Greatsword +10 Str +4 Spec +5 Weapon Enhancement, +2 Melee Weapon Mastery=58 average per hit. "
2d6 (let's say 7) + 10 + 4 +5 + 2 adds up as 28 as far as I can see, what am I missing?
Happy holidays all!
As such, I can move about a fair bit to set up charges. And given that the boots do not need to be attuned like some items, which specifically state they do, I can buy several pair, which actually quite nicely rounds out the 8+K I had left now that I think on it.
If you can't find any two weapon fighter builds, you aren't looking very hard. THere's a bunch stickied in the thread compilation at the top of the board.
So you are saying that you can't provide a build that actually does everything you claimed?
(Feel free to merely point us to an existing build that does all those things - apparently you don't have to look hard.)
But, hey, if I missed something please let me know.
If you can't find any two weapon fighter builds, you aren't looking very hard. THere's a bunch stickied in the thread compilation at the top of the board.
So you are saying that you can't provide a build that actually does everything you claimed?
(Feel free to merely point us to an existing build that does all those things - apparently you don't have to look hard.)
NO, I'm saying go look for a high damage twf build. You do take delight in delibrately misinterpreting me, a key tactic of those without a defensible argument.
==Aelryinth
Well, I went throught the Handy Links and low and behold did not find a single applicable build. Also, Ael, you referenced Jack B Quick, which I read over. Interesting. However it is more about trip optimization then TWF and has nothing to do with a sword and board build.
But, hey, if I missed something please let me know.
Actually, Jack B Quick is about number of attacks optimization, specifically 4 to 1, and the trip is a secondary effect. He also made it before To9S. With Steadfast boots out there, trip builds are going away.
Odd you can't find a single TWF build that does a lot of damage. I can certainly remember at least 3 warblade builds that were absolutely sick.
And the whole argument was about base dmg of the TWF style, not magic items, not using a shield, etc, which is another goal-post moving argument.
===Aelryinth
Well, I went throught the Handy Links and low and behold did not find a single applicable build. Also, Ael, you referenced Jack B Quick, which I read over. Interesting. However it is more about trip optimization then TWF and has nothing to do with a sword and board build.
But, hey, if I missed something please let me know.
Actually, Jack B Quick is about number of attacks optimization, specifically 4 to 1, and the trip is a secondary effect. He also made it before To9S. With Steadfast boots out there, trip builds are going away.
Odd you can't find a single TWF build that does a lot of damage. I can certainly remember at least 3 warblade builds that were absolutely sick.
And the whole argument was about base dmg of the TWF style, not magic items, not using a shield, etc, which is another goal-post moving argument.
===Aelryinth
Ael, I am responding directly to YOUR claims. You claimed TWF was superior. Then went on to claim that a Sword and Shield TWF was the best of the TWFs. By all means, give us links to these builds you know of. Mayhaps your google-fu is better than mine. But, again, until you provide a link you are spouting useless claims with out a single reference to cite. Please, show us the error of our ways.
And the idea that you can seperate items from an item(weapon) based build is ridiculous. Items are a product of Wealth, which is a product of Level, which is a direct product of the feasiblity of your character. The fact is that due to the STYLE of THW I have more money available to spend in other places. I do not NEED a +10 weapon, I can go with a +5, then use the rest on other items that increase my capabilities. However, to get similar damage, you MUST enhance multiple weapons this is a function of STYLE. This added cost reduces what you have available to spend on items outside of your weapons and armor. This is all a product of STYLE of fighting.
So Ael, either post a build or just stop. Myself and others have posted our data, you are responding in the same manner as a small child might when faced with something they don't want to hear, instead of providing data, you instead, in essence do the following:
"Nah-uh! Thats not fair! You cant have stuff like that! NO!" ::::Sticks fingers in ears:::: "I can't hear you! nanananananananaananananaa!"
Ael, you continued for several posts to argue a moot point rather than face the numbers and provide reference or any meaningful form of opposing data. You still can not seem to SHOW anything that sets your claims above the level of urban myth. I can tell you that the sky is hot pink and full of green stars. However, if all evidence suggests that it is in fact not hot pink and full of green stars, then any sane person would conclude I am delusion. This is therefore my conclusion of your arguement. You are making an unfounded claim, refusing to give evidence, despite the opposition providing a great deal of evidence. There for I am left no conclusion other than that you are delusional.
If this is true, then by 'wielding a weapon in his off hand' he is falling under the TWF rules, which specifically state the limitations of wielding a weapon in his off hand. In short, your Greatsword guy, putting two hands on his weapon, is now effectively a TWF with one weapon, and all the restrictions thereof. I don't know of any rules that define using an off-hand on a THW for weapon size, but we'll be charitable and go with treating it as a light weapon, using the double weapon rules.
Your Greatsword guy is now at -2 to hit. Furthermore, his 'off-hand' can't participate in secondary attacks without taking the TWF tree. Since you can't wield a Greatsword with one hand, this means that Greatsword guy effectively has no iteratives whatsoever without the TWF tree.
I.e. if you want to use the language that using a THW is 'wielding a weapon in the off hand', you have to use it for ALL rules, not just the ones you pick and choose. I rather think that most of the Greatsword wielders will heartily choose not to be Improved Buckler eligible in order to keep the benefits of their current fighting style.
-==Aelryinth
Ael, stop throwing out useless strawmen to distract from you lack of a build. Provide a build or give up this ghost. Until you show me a character build that is better, using the things you laid out, then you simply are wrong. Please, show us, in your infinite wisdom, the error of our ways. I beg you.
Secondly, you've spent the money on a +3 Tower shield. Gratis. You are aware that a +3 heavy shield provides the exact same AC benefit, except I can bash with it, take Shield Speciailization, and use Shield Ward to boot? Moneywise, you've gained nothing in terms of AC. If you want to be a sword and boarder comparison build, which is what you seem to be doing, you're going to, at the very best, end up with the exact same shield AC, without all the potential kickers, for the same gold cost...and no Defender spikes built in, either.
You keep pressing on this gold cost thing, then veering away from it once it becomes important. A SAB build focuses on high AC, occasionally high damage, and tanking ability. It can wreak some harm with a full attack, and be built to do extremely well that way. The fact a THW build can be built some OTHER way in no way obviates what the SAB build does.
Your continued exclamation about how you are free to allocate gold also falls flat. A base comparison at level 20 assumes 200k for a +10 weapon and 100k for a +10 Shield. Spending 36k on the shield for AC and 72 k as a weapon actually lets me have a +10 weapon in my other hand. Yes, that allows you to get a +5 Tower Shield Animated with +3 more kickers..go to town. You still have your -2 and all the other penalties of using the thing, and I'm seriously not worried about how you are going to spend 50k extra on your shield, especially since it's an item most DM's consider primary cheese anyways (it doesn't exist in 1, 2 or 4E for a reason).
Lastly, if we start optimizing by magic item usage, everything goes out the window as this build trumps that one squeezes out this feat gets this class ability. Dual wielding sunsword Exotic TWF specialists are another build that could be used, and if we start going for pure dmg then all the stops end up getting pulled out.
Ergo, I've already run the numbers, and as a baseline, they show that THW is not the uberest of uber fighting styles...it's got some advantages when TWF falls behind in iteratives, and loses them when the off hand kicks in more often. SHowing a build is a waste of time...there's people much better at TWF builds, and I'm really not going to spend the time on it.
===Aelryinth
Level 2: Barbarian (Whirling Frenzy, Lion Totem)
Level 3: F2: Improved BullRush
Level 4: Fighter 3
Level 5: F4: Weapon Spec.
Level 6: Fighter 5 6th level Feat: Leap Attack
Level 7: F6: Shock Trooper
Level 8: Fighter 7
Level 9: F8:Melee Weapon Mastery (slashing) Level 9 Feat: Extra Rage
Level 10: Fighter 9
Level 11: F10: Shield Ward
Level 12: Fighter 11. Level 12 Feat: Greater Weapon Focus
Level 13: F12: Greater Weapon Spec
Level 14: Fighter 13
Level 15: Figher 14: Close Quarters Fighting Level 15 Feat: Slashing Fury
Ah, some problems with this build.
1) Your shield spec and Shield ward feats do not apply to an animated Tower Shield, anymore then specialization feats apply to a Dancing weapon. Ergo, you aren't getting 'all the shield bonuses' that a SAB fighter is. You calculated the AC wrong, too...it's +5 for a +1 Tower Shield, firm. This means your AC is 31 from Armor and Shield. I advise dumping the two useless feats.
2) This is an Uber Charger build. It does great potential damage on a charge. That's wonderful. It also means you've optimized it to dealing maximum damage only if you can get a charge off...which is the exact same thing you've accused me of, requiring that full attack.
3) You naturally wave away his horrendous vulnerability to being attacked while his AC is in the toilet, the ease with which his attack can be prevented since people can set to charge, and the like. In short, you assume he's going to kill anyone he charges, and they are going to let him charge them.
4) You seem to think that you'll only fight in a charge, and only post damage numbers to that effect. Mmmkay.
5) You've got 3 rages per day, not 4.
6) Your average damage per blow is 28. You only get the 58 on a charge...not on a full attack, a full out CHARGE.
7) WIth slashing fury and an animated Tower Shield, you are at -7 on any full attack action. The +2 from charging helps, but do you realize it basically just destroyed any effect of the extra attack at any other time?
8) you get a +2 Dodge bonus to AC, but you've only a 15 dex (13 +2 gloves) for +2 Dex bonus. Note that the whirling frenzy imposes ANOTHER -2 To hit for a grand total of -9.
Your base attack against AC 35 is +15 BAB, +7 Str of 24, +5 Weapon, +4 Spec Tree -2 Tower Shield for a good +29...misses on a 5 or less. 75% of 28 dmg.
Your Frenzy attack is -2 for Frenzy, so +27...but you get 2 attacks, so 27/27 130% of 28 Dmg.
Your Slashing Fury attack is -5 more, so you get 3 attacks, one iterative, so 22/22/17. You need a 13 to hit, so 40/40/15 = 95% of 28 dmg. Don't think you'll be doing this much.
Your Full Attack is 22/22/22/17/12. or 40/40/40/15/5, or 140% of 28 dmg. +1 High Attack for Frenzy, +1 HIgh Attack for SLashing Fury, -2 TH for Tower Shield, -2 Frenzy, -5 Slashing Fury.
When Charging, this improves by +2, so 50/50/50/25/5, a nice 180% of base dmg of 28. Potentially this could be 58 dmg, or even higher...if the DM is willing to let your -17 hit to AC slide by without taking advantage of it.
I am NOT impressed by these numbers.
Dumping AC into Power Attack came at the cost of 3 feats...Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shock Trooper. Amazingly similar to the cost for the TWF tree! It also leaves you horrendously vulnerable to counter attack. As it is a special tactic dependent upon a charge, it can be set aside for this comparison without a problem. I expect the DM will happily employ the tactic against you, but what do I know?
==========
==Aelryinth
How to adjust the build, mmm.
17 dex for ITWF. Let's see what we see. We'll spend the extra 8 k on popping the 2/2 gloves to +4 dex, and have the party caster make them. Mithral plate is fine, as the Dex bonus is still only +3.
Instead of boots of the battle charger, probably use Steadfast boots for the auto bracing and attacks against being charged.
Level 1: H: EWP (Heavy Shortsword) 1st: Shield Spec: Heavy Shield F1: Weapon Focus, Heavy Shortsword (Dmg 1-8)
Level 2: Barbarian (Normal Rage, Lion Totem)
Level 3: F2: IMproved Shield Bash
Level 4: Fighter 3
Level 5: F4: Weapon Spec.
Level 6: Fighter 5 6th level Feat: TWF
Level 7: F6: Shield Ward
Level 8: Fighter 7
Level 9: F8:Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing) Level 9 Feat: Extra Rage
Level 10: Fighter 9
Level 11: F10: ITWF
Level 12: Fighter 11. Level 12 Feat: Greater Weapon Focus
Level 13: F12: Greater Weapon Spec
Level 14: Fighter 13
Level 15: Exotic Weapon Master - Full Str to off hand Level 15 Feat: Agile Shield Fighter
Weapon is a +3 Heavy Bastard Sword with the Sun Sword property allowing it to be wielded like a Short Sword. If you consider this cheese, stick with a Heavy short sword for base 1-8 instead of 2-16. Dmg drops by 4.5.
Shield is a +3 Heavy Shield of Bashing with +2 Spikes of Adaptive and Defending. A GMW can increase this radically. Gets Spec bonuses to Bash Attacks.
AC is nominally Dex+3, Armor +11, Shield +5, defending +2 = 31 walk around AC. GMW can increase this to 34 ish. Touch AC is nominally 20.
Dmg: 2-16 +7 Str +3Enhance +6 Spec Tree = 25 dmg. Two handed, 28 dmg. Bonus TH is +29 (+15 BAB, +7 Str, +4 Spec, +3 Enhance)
SAB: Shield: 2-12 +7 Str +6 Spec Tree +1 Bash = Dmg 21. Base TH is +15 BAB +1 Bash +4 Spec Tree +7 Str -2 TWF = +25.
Sword: +15 BAB +7 Str +4 Spec -2 TWF +3 Enhance = +27.
Full Attack: Sword 65/40/15 = 120% of 25 dmg.
Shield = 65/40 for 105% of 21 dmg. (spike bonuses are going to AC)
On charge, +2 TH, -2 AC.
75/50/25 = 150% of 25 dmg
75/50 = 125% of 21 dmg.
Mm. The only time you could potentially do better is on the Charge, and if the enemy isn't prepped to defend against that tactic. ANd, of course, you get -15 to AC while doing so, while SAB retains his AC. Your full attack dmg isn't impressive, especially with slashing flurry in there. Getting rid of that, shield ward and shield spec frees up three feats...I'd suggest Dodge, Mobility and Elusive Target so enemy Power Attacks can't rip you apart while you are charging.
Could this build's dmg be improved on? Sure. A pure TWF build would just use Two Heavy Sunbladish weapons, an animated heavy shield, and free up FIVE feats in doing so. Touch AC goes down, but now he's got room for Two Weapon Rend and Dodge, Mobility and Elusive Target, for options.
The cost to be an uber charger is feats, just like TWF. And as you pointed out, not all full attacks can be charges.
===Aelryinth
How to adjust the build, mmm.
17 dex for ITWF. Let's see what we see. We'll spend the extra 8 k on popping the 2/2 gloves to +4 dex, and have the party caster make them. Mithral plate is fine, as the Dex bonus is still only +3.
Instead of boots of the battle charger, probably use Steadfast boots for the auto bracing and attacks against being charged.
Level 1: H: EWP (Heavy Shortsword) 1st: Shield Spec: Heavy Shield F1: Weapon Focus, Heavy Shortsword (Dmg 1-8)
Level 2: Barbarian (Normal Rage, Lion Totem)
Level 3: F2: IMproved Shield Bash
Level 4: Fighter 3
Level 5: F4: Weapon Spec.
Level 6: Fighter 5 6th level Feat: TWF
Level 7: F6: Shield Ward
Level 8: Fighter 7
Level 9: F8:Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing) Level 9 Feat: Extra Rage
Level 10: Fighter 9
Level 11: F10: ITWF
Level 12: Fighter 11. Level 12 Feat: Greater Weapon Focus
Level 13: F12: Greater Weapon Spec
Level 14: Fighter 13
Level 15: Exotic Weapon Master - Full Str to off hand Level 15 Feat: Agile Shield Fighter
Weapon is a +3 Heavy Bastard Sword with the Sun Sword property allowing it to be wielded like a Short Sword. If you consider this cheese, stick with a Heavy short sword for base 1-8 instead of 2-16. Dmg drops by 4.5.
Shield is a +3 Heavy Shield of Bashing with +2 Spikes of Adaptive and Defending. A GMW can increase this radically. Gets Spec bonuses to Bash Attacks.
AC is nominally Dex+3, Armor +11, Shield +5, defending +2 = 31 walk around AC. GMW can increase this to 34 ish. Touch AC is nominally 20.
Dmg: 2-16 +7 Str +3Enhance +6 Spec Tree = 25 dmg. Two handed, 28 dmg. Bonus TH is +29 (+15 BAB, +7 Str, +4 Spec, +3 Enhance)
SAB: Shield: 2-12 +7 Str +6 Spec Tree +1 Bash = Dmg 21. Base TH is +15 BAB +1 Bash +4 Spec Tree +7 Str -2 TWF = +25.
Sword: +15 BAB +7 Str +4 Spec -2 TWF +3 Enhance = +27.
Full Attack: Sword 65/40/15 = 120% of 25 dmg.
Shield = 65/40 for 105% of 21 dmg. (spike bonuses are going to AC)
On charge, +2 TH, -2 AC.
75/50/25 = 150% of 25 dmg
75/50 = 125% of 21 dmg.
Mm. The only time you could potentially do better is on the Charge, and if the enemy isn't prepped to defend against that tactic. ANd, of course, you get -15 to AC while doing so, while SAB retains his AC. Your full attack dmg isn't impressive, especially with slashing flurry in there. Getting rid of that, shield ward and shield spec frees up three feats...I'd suggest Dodge, Mobility and Elusive Target so enemy Power Attacks can't rip you apart while you are charging.
Could this build's dmg be improved on? Sure. A pure TWF build would just use Two Heavy Sunbladish weapons, an animated heavy shield, and free up FIVE feats in doing so. Touch AC goes down, but now he's got room for Two Weapon Rend and Dodge, Mobility and Elusive Target, for options.
The cost to be an uber charger is feats, just like TWF. And as you pointed out, not all full attacks can be charges.
===Aelryinth
Please provide a breakdown of how you spent your money. Further there is no reason that Shield Ward/Shield Spec do not work with an Animated Shield. Show me a ruling that says they do not. The text says, "Protecting her as if she were using it herself, but freeing up both her hands. A tower shield is a Shield. I have the feats needed, I am treated as if I were using it. Therefore it applies.
How to adjust the build, mmm.
17 dex for ITWF. Let's see what we see. We'll spend the extra 8 k on popping the 2/2 gloves to +4 dex, and have the party caster make them. Mithral plate is fine, as the Dex bonus is still only +3.
Instead of boots of the battle charger, probably use Steadfast boots for the auto bracing and attacks against being charged.
Level 1: H: EWP (Heavy Shortsword) 1st: Shield Spec: Heavy Shield F1: Weapon Focus, Heavy Shortsword (Dmg 1-8)
Level 2: Barbarian (Normal Rage, Lion Totem)
Level 3: F2: IMproved Shield Bash
Level 4: Fighter 3
Level 5: F4: Weapon Spec.
Level 6: Fighter 5 6th level Feat: TWF
Level 7: F6: Shield Ward
Level 8: Fighter 7
Level 9: F8:Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing) Level 9 Feat: Extra Rage
Level 10: Fighter 9
Level 11: F10: ITWF
Level 12: Fighter 11. Level 12 Feat: Greater Weapon Focus
Level 13: F12: Greater Weapon Spec
Level 14: Fighter 13
Level 15: Exotic Weapon Master - Full Str to off hand Level 15 Feat: Agile Shield Fighter
Weapon is a +3 Heavy Bastard Sword with the Sun Sword property allowing it to be wielded like a Short Sword. If you consider this cheese, stick with a Heavy short sword for base 1-8 instead of 2-16. Dmg drops by 4.5.
Shield is a +3 Heavy Shield of Bashing with +2 Spikes of Adaptive and Defending. A GMW can increase this radically. Gets Spec bonuses to Bash Attacks.
AC is nominally Dex+3, Armor +11, Shield +5, defending +2 = 31 walk around AC. GMW can increase this to 34 ish. Touch AC is nominally 20.
Dmg: 2-16 +7 Str +3Enhance +6 Spec Tree = 25 dmg. Two handed, 28 dmg. Bonus TH is +29 (+15 BAB, +7 Str, +4 Spec, +3 Enhance)
SAB: Shield: 2-12 +7 Str +6 Spec Tree +1 Bash = Dmg 21. Base TH is +15 BAB +1 Bash +4 Spec Tree +7 Str -2 TWF = +25.
Sword: +15 BAB +7 Str +4 Spec -2 TWF +3 Enhance = +27.
Full Attack: Sword 65/40/15 = 120% of 25 dmg.
Shield = 65/40 for 105% of 21 dmg. (spike bonuses are going to AC)
On charge, +2 TH, -2 AC.
75/50/25 = 150% of 25 dmg
75/50 = 125% of 21 dmg.
Mm. The only time you could potentially do better is on the Charge, and if the enemy isn't prepped to defend against that tactic. ANd, of course, you get -15 to AC while doing so, while SAB retains his AC. Your full attack dmg isn't impressive, especially with slashing flurry in there. Getting rid of that, shield ward and shield spec frees up three feats...I'd suggest Dodge, Mobility and Elusive Target so enemy Power Attacks can't rip you apart while you are charging.
Could this build's dmg be improved on? Sure. A pure TWF build would just use Two Heavy Sunbladish weapons, an animated heavy shield, and free up FIVE feats in doing so. Touch AC goes down, but now he's got room for Two Weapon Rend and Dodge, Mobility and Elusive Target, for options.
The cost to be an uber charger is feats, just like TWF. And as you pointed out, not all full attacks can be charges.
===Aelryinth
You need to pay full price for items, no oh the party will cast this, or I can have the party caster do that. Ok fine, my party has an artificer, he is going to build ALL my gear, for cheap, cause he has all the feats that drop costs, now I can have UBER GEAR!!! No, use the prices given and the WBL, that was the challenge, otherwise I will use the same BS tactics.
Ok so lets look at this. I have an AC 42 you have AC 31, I can PA For Full on a charge and you only beat my AC by 4 or I simply dont PA for full, PA for 10. There ya go, I still beat your AC. One win for me. We have the same number of attacks. Mine are doing 48 per hit yours are doing 21-25. I again win here. Also, note that Charging only need be a Standard action for me given my boots, and Pounce allows me to take my full attack at the end of the charge. Your Steadfast boots do not allow you to set for my charge, you do not have a two-handed weapon. Bastard swords are a 1 handed exotic weapon that can be wielded 2 handed if you have Martial weapon proficiency. You have no Two Handed Weapon, which the Boots would allow you to set for a charge. You have an AC or 31(assuming you have had a turn to allocate the Defending Property), I have 23/23/23/18/13 to hit. I get +2 from Charging, so that gives me 25/25/25/20/15. I am going to hit the first for attacks without issue. That is 48x4= 192 damage. You are dead. Thanks for playing. Even if I only hit 3 attacks, I still kill you. Unless of course we give Max HP(167). So Max HP, I hit 4 times and kill you.
Lets now assume you go first. You have a 27/27/27/22/17 if I have not miscalculated anything. You need a 20 to hit me with your last two iteratives. So you hit me for 25, 21,21, I have taken 57 damage. My turn. I provoke an AoO by moving twenty feat away, activate my boots, charge and kill you. Again. I win.
I have no idea where you are getting Heavy from? I have never seen that one before. And you want to bring PrC's in? Sweet. I will alter my build accordingly as soon as I get a chance.
But from what I can figure, you don't start TWF until half way through your build and until level 15 you are hitting at -4 to do so. Not much of a TWF. None of this matters because you would need 2 Full Rounds to kill me, I need 1 Standard action(Charge is standard with my boots) to kill you. So again, how exactly are you better? I have a higher AC, I have better damage, and I have better options at my disposal.
First, are we still helping the original poster with a good fighter build?
Two, does it really makes sense to pit different builds made to prove a point about weapon style against each other? That makes it rather tempting to adapt the build to what the other made, in a 1 on 1 arena situation. Which is totally different from normal gaming. I don’t know if it’s an English expression, but please don’t let this thread run any more into ‘prayer without an end’ than it is already. Rather then replying to each others builds with new and improved builds into infinity, I have you people help me out with my builds on this forum
Three, without pointing fingers, somewhere during the discussion the tone in this thread steadily deteriorated, at least it seems to me. Let’s just be nice to each other.
1) Insight bonuses on a non-attuned slot cost double. So that's 120k for the bracers of Insight.
Actually Ael, Bracers are an attuned slot for a defensive item. So the price is accurate. If you mean because it is an Insight bonus, that means absolutely nothing. Lets call it a Morale bonus instead if that makes you happy. Either way, Bracers are an appropriate slot for the effect.
2) You fly at 20 per round. Mountain Plate allows move of 10' off a base of 30'. that means you fly at 20', not 60'. That means your maximum charge range is a whopping 20'.
Actually, Mountain plate reduces a base speed of 30 to 15 not 10. So my Fly is 30, which is perfectly fine.
3) Unlike Meyer's build, your defensive options suck, to put it bluntly. Especially your all-important will save. "Hey Guys, I get +11 on my will save at level 20 because I like being used against the party!" That costs money. Allocate.
I still have 50k left, so I certainly could allocate if need be. So I can just grab that crystal of mind cloaking that Meyers was rocking for 10k and I am fine yes? There not a problem.
4) Frenzy imposes a -2 to hit, effectively negating your Frenzy Str bonus to hit.
This is figured into my to hit numbers. Not sure why you need to point it out, as it has already been figured into the numbers.
5) See nothing in the build for True Sight or stuff allowing you to hit unseen foes. nor any kind of blinking or teleportation effect.
Your point? Sorry not seeing where this is required. However, for vision, lets go with Goggles of Draconic Vision for 16k. Grants low light and dark vision and 1x per day Blindsense 30. Should be fine. I really don't see why I need a blinking or teleporting effect at all.
6) Resulting to custom items to get your Armor Class up is the height of cheese. just make a +3 Dismal Ring (3 each Deflection, Insight, Sacred Morale And Luck) for 150kish and just let everyone roll their eyes and done. Saves you 30k too. And, oh, Meyer can take it too.
First, all of the items I posted are directly from MIC/DMG there is no cheese to changing the bonus of an item. I paid the appropriate costs. Thanks though. More childish ranting. Exactly what I expected.
7) You can't even afford mountain Plate until level, what, 10? And you think you can get it at 6? Especially Mithral???
Never said I owned it at level 6. I took the feat to use it at that level. If you want to account for lower level gear than both myself and Meyer would need to change the lay out significantly.
8) Mountain Plate is exotic Armor, not heavy armor. Although you could be charitable and call it super-heavy, technically this won't work. It's restricted to Heavy armor. IF you have a charitable GM, maybe he'll let you rule this works because it's made of mithral....actually, this wouldn't work, period. Mithral doesn't remove the fact that it's exotic armor. I suggest just using Dodge or something.
Mountain Plate is an exotic armor. True. Mountain Plate is also a HEAVY ARMOR and is listed as such in the description and chart from Races of Stone. Go ahead and look it up. Not sure what this has to do with other than maybe refering to Heavy Armor Optimization. But still it works. Mithral Mountain Plate is still Heavy Armor but recieves the other bonuses of being mithral.
9) For DR purposes, you want Shadowstriking on your sword, and Valorous on your weapon (double dmg on a charge)
Shadowstriking does nothing with DR. Simply denies a foe their Dex bonus to AC once per day. Not that useful. Valorous might be useful. Very well, I will drop Warning, for Valorous. Thanks for the added damage Ael.
10) Weapon Supremacy is NOT a Fighter bonus Feat. You need 18 levels of Fighter to take it, but you must burn a General Feat. Since you have a level of Barbarian, you aren't going to get this feat until Epic.
According to Errata it is indeed a Fighter bonus feat.
Page 75-86 – Feats [Omission]
Bounding Assault, Crushing Strike, Driving Attack,
Overwhelming Assault, Rapid Blitz, Slashing
Flurry, and Weapon Supremacy should indicate that
a fighter may select the feat as a fighter bonus feat.
Meyer, if he's using custom AC items, just use the DISMAL ring above. You get +10 AC for under 50k. Otherwise, tell him to use a classical published item.
No need .... I mentioned already that he was using a non-standard item, and that I do not need to worry about inflating already large enough numbers
Meyer, the shield should be +5 Bashing and +5 Defender Spikes. Anytime he's not fighting the Defender is on full. UNlike armor spikes or a spiked gauntlet, the Shield is definitely being wielded at all times, no questions. This improves your walk around AC tremendously. And it's all touch. make sure to get a Missile Deflection Augment Gem on it so you automatically deflect the first missile/rd, and get +5 against ranged attacks (including ranged touch, i.e. rays). Note that since you are wearing Strong Arm Bracers, the Shield is a weapon, so you can make it Heavy and increase dmg by one category, cumulative with Bashing.
How much would a shield like that cost ... please refer to my posted character and let me know if I can afford it ... if not, what I should remove.
You also realize that this is also something that he can do ... He is walking around with an animated shield (he is wielding it -- no question about it).
Notice the damage I claim the shield does ... it is a heavy shield (1d6) with spikes (1d8) of one size large (2d6). I am unfamiliar with bashing ... how much does it cost -- and what does it do (not for me -- but in case others are interested).
Primary weapon should be a +5 Sun Sword-esque weapon effect, so it's treated as a light weapon and avoids the off-hand penalties. I do like your Crushing Blow rhythym thing. If you want full Str on off hand, you need a level of Exotic weapon Master, because they never bothered to publish a feat which did this.
Can you point me to a published item like that? You realize I took Oversized TWF which basically did the same thing as that item. I cannot take a level of Exotic Weapon Master, as I don't have an exotic weapon feat ... plus, the thread wanted a fighter ... I compromised by adding the 1 level of obligatory Barbarian to the build as it was (virtually) required. I would rather not dip more (else, why not use feat rogue 2 for evasion/etc ...
Gauntlets of the Balanced Hand stacked onto your current pair improves your TWF level by one feat. Thus, you need only devote 2 feats to it. take the extra feat and get Ancestral Relic (Shield). This effectively doubles the amount of gold spent on your Shield and raises the cap to 375 k. In other words, for 150k gp, you can get a +10 Shield with +10 Spikes (300k). Or, you can take a +6/+6 Shield (the standard Uber shield) for only 50k. Oh sure, stick Warning and stuff on the shield, too...still cheap. Technically, a +1 Warning dagger at your waist is all you need.
Ah, I like those Gauntlets ... however, my MIC does not agree with what you posted above. Mine lists that it lets me fight as though I had ITWF, but since I need/want GTWF, this won't help me ... is there Errata on this?
I am avoiding ancestral relic (shield) just like i am avoiding other methods of optimization (I prefer to keep things table friendly). I started out having Eager/Warning spikes on my chain shirt but when I noticed that we weren't really focusing on that ... I removed them.
Remove Knowledge Devotion as a situational bonus. Like his dubious ability to charge, it only clicks on in special situations, like Favored Enemy. Frees up another feat. Also, it's a knowledge based skill, and you can't use those while in a Rage. It could be pointed out that you're only effective because of Knowledge Devotion, and he could take the feat and put any points not into jump into it and get the same bonuses. If this is untenable, just do what he did and use an Animated Shield, get rid of your Shield feats, and wield two hammers and use the spec tree. Aplying spec dmg to the off hand evens the results out again.
Knowledge Devotion is always a +5/+5 since I have every monster knowledge and rolling a 1 grants me that bonus ... it is not situational, it is ever-present
(minor exception: If I am already raging, and a new monster type that is covered by a new knowledge roll enters combat, then I would not gain the benefit of that ... but this sounds pretty rare.)
It takes two feats to get knowledge devotion (feat + education), but you are correct, he could.
I cannot see myself using an Animated Shield to ATTACK with. This is one of the key parts of the build (free trip attacks) which I do not want to lose. Using two hammers is not Sword and Board.
Don't take Whirling Frenzy...the extra attack is a trap. Take normal rage. The +2/+2 from the Rage is much more profitable with all your extra attacks. Run the numbers and see. Across 7 attacks, that's +70% dmg, and a higher dmg level.
Did you look at my stats posted? I have 95% to hit (including the -2) ... the -2 therefore is not 70% damage but rather 0% damage (0% of 70 is < 100% of 70)
I recommend Elusive Attack somewhere in the build to render you immune to PA, and to make use of your high AC so your enemies hit one another.
Elusive Attack ... the fighter alternate class feature? This does not do what you say it does.
Elusive Target ... has two feats as a pre-req ... I don't think I have room in the build for this.
Ael,
I appreciate the attempts to help ... but I just popped in here to make a quick build that fit the criteria and was table friendly. It seemed like you needed some assistance since they had asked you for a build. Having done that, and after having the build be accepted as meeting the needs, I am unsure what else you need. Is there additional criteria I missed? Was the goal not met?
I guarantee that there is a lot more optimization available for this (like ... i have 19 levels of fighter ... ugh talk about a wasted level) but is it needed?
If your hit rates are 95%+, then You should have Power Attack to transform all those extra TH bonuses into more damage. Every bonus TH becomes a bonus to dmg.
Buy the Gauntlets. If you have TWF,they give you ITWF, which means you can now spend a feat on GTWF without actually buying ITWF. Free feat! I suggest GWF to stack on Power Attack...
He's using Custom Made AC items, and you're not using Ancestral Relic? okay...
You can't make a knowledge check while in a rage, even if you only need a 1. You can't use any skill or feat that requires an Int roll. So either get rid of rage or get rid of Knowledge Devotion. The constant bonus argument doesn't wash...you are using the skills. I suggest dropping the Barbarian level entirely if you want to do this, and replace it with an Exotic Weapon Master level. You can pay for it by not needing Extra Rage.
The price of an uber shield as listed is 108 k =6/+6 72k+36k. Note that shield spikes do NOT work for you, since you want to keep your dmg as bludgeon. Since you are using an Animated Shield, the spikes don't provide any benefit, as they cannot be used as a weapon. So, my error.
Bashing increases the bash dmg of a shield by one category, and gives it +1/+1 th/dmg. Combined with spikes, it gives it a 2 slot size increase. Since you aren't bashing, is moot.
If you need an Exotic Weapon Prof, call it Exotic Weapon (Heavy war hammer). Stacks with strongarm and oversized weapon. The 'light weapon' effect is a +1 effect embedded into the Sun Sword, although you could realistically make it a fixed +GP bonus too. Since he's buying custom items, buy a 4/day Psionic Lion's Pounce item by his rules, or something, and you don't need the barb level at all.
========
Mountain Plate is heavy armor is great. You still can't run in it, and if you can't run, you can't charge. If you can't run, you also cannot make a running leap, which makes Leap Attack impossible. Downgrade your armor. Use the extra feat for dodge, and you won't even miss it.
Shadow Striking is a +3 Enhancement from the Tome of Magic, not some 1/day effect. It adjusts itself to overcome the DR of any creature it hits, such that second and followup blows have no DR against the weapon. It's not as good on a charge, but at least you don't need 4 alignment and 3 material effects on any one weapon...thought I suppose you could do Metalline and Sure Striking for the same effect at only +2, except there you'd have to know the material to emulate.
personally I like the Paizo/MOnte Cook rule that +5 intrinsic enhancement bypasses all DR...
Bracers may well ply defensive effects, but they don't take luck, sacred, morale or deflection bonuses any more then any other slot. The only slot that can take those benefits is the ring, which is open to all things (and thus, the most powerful slots for custom effects). Furthermore, you're playing full cheese with the rules, getting an AC bonus out of a slot that technically can't deliver one, as the only armor effect coming off bracers is enhancement, which won't stack with your armor. Defensive items is not the same as a devoted AC bonus, which are devoted to particular slots...or are unslotted. There's a reason there's no medley of off-bonus AC items out there. It's far cheaper to stack up multiple +1 bonuses of different types then get a +5 anything.
No, the cost is doubled. If you're going to go with cheese, slap it into a ring and pay the kicker, or just go full out cheese and use DISMAL. At which point this comes down to who can build the cheesiest magic item.
This is why build contests never work. The cheese always emerges in the effort to prove one's point.
==Aelryinth
JaronK posted some nice builds in the "A Solid Sword and Board Melee" thread.
JanusJones has a good point in the "Up Against the Wall! Bull Rushing Finally Gets..." thread.
I'm also a big fan of the ideas presented in Aelryinth's "A little Lock build for you..." thread.
//Rune
Can't bash with an animated shield, it's not considered a wielded weapon. That's also why shield feats dont apply to it. Can't apply feats to things not actually wielded in hand.
If your hit rates are 95%+, then You should have Power Attack to transform all those extra TH bonuses into more damage. Every bonus TH becomes a bonus to dmg.
Buy the Gauntlets. If you have TWF,they give you ITWF, which means you can now spend a feat on GTWF without actually buying ITWF. Free feat! I suggest GWF to stack on Power Attack...
He's using Custom Made AC items, and you're not using Ancestral Relic? okay...
You can't make a knowledge check while in a rage, even if you only need a 1. You can't use any skill or feat that requires an Int roll. So either get rid of rage or get rid of Knowledge Devotion. The constant bonus argument doesn't wash...you are using the skills. I suggest dropping the Barbarian level entirely if you want to do this, and replace it with an Exotic Weapon Master level. You can pay for it by not needing Extra Rage.
The price of an uber shield as listed is 108 k =6/+6 72k+36k. Note that shield spikes do NOT work for you, since you want to keep your dmg as bludgeon. Since you are using an Animated Shield, the spikes don't provide any benefit, as they cannot be used as a weapon. So, my error.
Bashing increases the bash dmg of a shield by one category, and gives it +1/+1 th/dmg. Combined with spikes, it gives it a 2 slot size increase. Since you aren't bashing, is moot.
If you need an Exotic Weapon Prof, call it Exotic Weapon (Heavy war hammer). Stacks with strongarm and oversized weapon. The 'light weapon' effect is a +1 effect embedded into the Sun Sword, although you could realistically make it a fixed +GP bonus too. Since he's buying custom items, buy a 4/day Psionic Lion's Pounce item by his rules, or something, and you don't need the barb level at all.
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Mountain Plate is heavy armor is great. You still can't run in it, and if you can't run, you can't charge. If you can't run, you also cannot make a running leap, which makes Leap Attack impossible. Downgrade your armor. Use the extra feat for dodge, and you won't even miss it.
Shadow Striking is a +3 Enhancement from the Tome of Magic, not some 1/day effect. It adjusts itself to overcome the DR of any creature it hits, such that second and followup blows have no DR against the weapon. It's not as good on a charge, but at least you don't need 4 alignment and 3 material effects on any one weapon...thought I suppose you could do Metalline and Sure Striking for the same effect at only +2, except there you'd have to know the material to emulate.
personally I like the Paizo/MOnte Cook rule that +5 intrinsic enhancement bypasses all DR...
Bracers may well ply defensive effects, but they don't take luck, sacred, morale or deflection bonuses any more then any other slot. The only slot that can take those benefits is the ring, which is open to all things (and thus, the most powerful slots for custom effects). Furthermore, you're playing full cheese with the rules, getting an AC bonus out of a slot that technically can't deliver one, as the only armor effect coming off bracers is enhancement, which won't stack with your armor. Defensive items is not the same as a devoted AC bonus, which are devoted to particular slots...or are unslotted. There's a reason there's no medley of off-bonus AC items out there. It's far cheaper to stack up multiple +1 bonuses of different types then get a +5 anything.
No, the cost is doubled. If you're going to go with cheese, slap it into a ring and pay the kicker, or just go full out cheese and use DISMAL. At which point this comes down to who can build the cheesiest magic item.
This is why build contests never work. The cheese always emerges in the effort to prove one's point.
==Aelryinth
Ael, please point me to where you are getting these ideas. As far as I have been able to find there is no rule stating that you can not apply an Insight, luck, or what ever bonus to a particular slot. As a matter of fact, there are in fact GLOVES of True Strike. So Insight works just fine on your hands. Those are located in the MIC. So show me a ruling. I can't find one.
But, no real issue. I will buy a Hand of Glory. 8k. I have plenty. Shift the bonus from bracer to ring and wear it there. No issue. Lets move on.
There is no reason that I can not charge in Mountain Plate. None. I do not need to run to charge. I can easily make the leap with out issue. I do not need the running start. I have 23 ranks + 12 from Str -3 ACP means I can make the DC with out dice. There is no issue with my Mountain Plate. I never need to run. Ever. If I need to move faster I can fly.
Seriously you are accusing me of cheese but want to pull in 3.0 material and apply SPECIFIC ITEM abilities to different weapons. You are grasping at straws Ael. And again in response to the shield issue: Directly from the SRD.:
Animated
Upon command, an animated shield floats within 2 feet of the wielder, protecting her as if she were using it herself but freeing up both her hands. Only one shield can protect a character at a time. A character with an animated shield still takes any penalties associated with shield use, such as armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, and nonproficiency.
It protects me AS IF I WERE holding it. Therefore, unless you can show me a ruling otherwise, I recieve all benefits, from doing so.
Can't bash with an animated shield, it's not considered a wielded weapon. That's also why shield feats dont apply to it. Can't apply feats to things not actually wielded in hand.
Do you have a rules quote for this?
For instance ... we know that an animated tower shield applies a -2 to hit penalty ...
Animated: Upon command, an animated shield floats within 2 feet of the wielder, protecting her as if she were using it herself but freeing up both her hands. Only one shield can protect a character at a time. A character with an animated shield still takes any penalties associated with shield use, such as armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, and nonproficiency.
So ... he is USING it, but not WIELDING it? Can you explain to me the difference and where this difference is spelled out? I agree that we cannot make an attack with the shield (... protecting her as if she were using it ... )
If your hit rates are 95%+, then You should have Power Attack to transform all those extra TH bonuses into more damage. Every bonus TH becomes a bonus to dmg.
*shakes head*
Ael, did you read my stat block? I *AM* power attacking for full (shock trooper) identically as the other build is. Power attack caps out at my BAB. I cannot use more ...
Buy the Gauntlets. If you have TWF,they give you ITWF, which means you can now spend a feat on GTWF without actually buying ITWF. Free feat! I suggest GWF to stack on Power Attack...
Please re-read the gauntlets ... "while you are attacking you gain. ..." this does not mean "whenever you level, please pretend to have this feat" ... unless you know Errata to this.
He's using Custom Made AC items, and you're not using Ancestral Relic? okay...
Correct. If I was going to cheese, it would be Item Familiar -- same feat slot -- superior feat ... less table friendly. We posted builds, they both fit the OPs goal. This is not a competition.
You can't make a knowledge check while in a rage, even if you only need a 1. You can't use any skill or feat that requires an Int roll. So either get rid of rage or get rid of Knowledge Devotion. The constant bonus argument doesn't wash...you are using the skills. I suggest dropping the Barbarian level entirely if you want to do this, and replace it with an Exotic Weapon Master level. You can pay for it by not needing Extra Rage.
Please re-read the feat. Once I make the knowledge check (prior to raging) ... here, let me post for you ..
You then receive an insight bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against that creature type for the remainder of the combat.
What rule do you have (please list/cite) that counter-acts the reading of the feat to mean that you need to keep using the feat?
Would you also houserule that if an effect later gave you a penalty / bonus to your initial roll that you would auto-matically change values during the fight?
The price of an uber shield as listed is 108 k =6/+6 72k+36k. Note that shield spikes do NOT work for you, since you want to keep your dmg as bludgeon. Since you are using an Animated Shield, the spikes don't provide any benefit, as they cannot be used as a weapon. So, my error.
Are you even looking at the builds? I am not using an animated shield ... but you are correct in that I should not be using shield spikes and will remove them sometime next week (in time for you to verify that my build (pre-edit) does not have animated shield.
If you need an Exotic Weapon Prof, call it Exotic Weapon (Heavy war hammer). Stacks with strongarm and oversized weapon. The 'light weapon' effect is a +1 effect embedded into the Sun Sword, although you could realistically make it a fixed +GP bonus too. Since he's buying custom items, buy a 4/day Psionic Lion's Pounce item by his rules, or something, and you don't need the barb level at all.
Where is the "light weapon" effect listed as a published enhancement, or are you guessing?
And no ... not making psionic lion's pounce item ... don't be silly
Mountain Plate is heavy armor is great. You still can't run in it, and if you can't run, you can't charge. If you can't run, you also cannot make a running leap, which makes Leap Attack impossible. Downgrade your armor. Use the extra feat for dodge, and you won't even miss it.
Since he is using Mithril, his Mountain Plate is treated as Medium armor for movement (per Mithil).
There is no ruling about running being linked to charge, unless you know a rule somewhere?
Ael:
I remember you used to be more correct in the rules, what happened?
Ael:
I remember you used to be more correct in the rules, what happened?
That I'd like to know, too. Your lockdown build was very solid back then, but all your claims/mistakes are pretty sad. I know you sometimes have your own interpretation of the rules (and very strong feelings about them - see the Insightful Strike fiasko or the Nondetection / True Strike debacle), but if you want to point out mistakes in someone else's build, it's probably better to take the time to actually check the rules. Or to phrase your concerns more carefully (e.g., "I thought that...").
The two builds posted are very nice, and they do what they aim to do. With animated shields (or even Improved Buckler Defense), there's little reason to pick TWF over THF.
Ael, I honestly remember the first time I read your Lockdown Build. I thought it was great. We have disagreed more than once, but generally I prefer to read and observe. However, I have in the past had great respect for you and your work. Not real sure what has happened with you. I remember several epic debates between you and I believe it was JaronK? Those threads were informative. Ael, please understand, there is no personal distain on my side, I simply think that you have made several statements without being able to back them, and in many places completely made things up to support your position when the rules clearly do not.
As for TWF vs THF, well from a mechanics stand point, I think that THF is an easier to use, understand, and execute build. Hence from a purely mechanical point of view, I think it is the best. However, I do love TWF, and have played my fair share despite the complexity. I think that TWF is a flavorful and wonderful style. It unfortunately was made to be mechanically inferior is many situations, such as requiring a full attack to make it work, where a THF can just as easily not ever make a full attack and still do impressive damage and be a potent threat.