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Help with Dervish

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
seekanddestroy
May 23, 2009 22:55:19 I have read a lot of the Dervish handbook. I am finally after years getting ready to start a new campaign. The party really needs a Wizard but I want to play a Whisper Gnome Dervish. The game is 3.5. I have access to many books. We can use quiet a bit besides stuff like Dragon. I like the Swash/Fighter/Dervish. I will be starting on level 4.

3.5 Level 4 WG Dervish
16,16,13,13,12,9 rolled not to bad

So far I put them:
Dex-16 +2 rac mod =18
Int- 16 =16
Con-13 +2rac mod +1 for 4th level=16
Str-13 -2 rac mod =11
Wis-12 =12
Cha-9 -2 rac mod =7

I was wondering a few things:

Is this the best order for ability scores?

Is their a best order to take the levels in?

I have 5500gp, what's the best way to spend it?

Feats, what is the optimal order? I can take flaws, I was thinking murky eyed would be best. I would like to have imp. crit at ninth level.

Any other thing you can think of would be most appreciated.
#2
xkullx
May 24, 2009 0:11:17 Headband of Int +2 and Gloves of dex +2
Ok items, though Im sure there are better, though 5500 isnt a whole lot.

You need Combat expertise, dodge, mobility and weapon focus to enter the Dervish class.

If you wanna go fast, throw in a couple of Fighter levels to get bonus feats.
Two weapon fighting and Improved two weapon fighting are important.

Improved critical is also good for dishing out more damage, though many would argue to buy a keen weapon or something simular, with the feat you save a lot of money.

Also if you go the fastest build Swashbuckler 3 / Fighter 2 / Dervish +++, you can Subsitute Grace from the swa. with for instance Blur as a swift action 1+int modifier a day ( last 1 round ) , Complete Mage page 32.

I am by no means an expert, but here is my build

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1192738
#3
nickresonance
May 24, 2009 2:20:19 A couple of ideas I'd like to throw out there just because.

Scout might be an interesting compliment to swashbuckler when entering dervish. Depending on your DM's interpretation, you MAY get to add skirmish damage to all of your attacks during a dervish dance since you keep moving. The skirmish ability, though, says you need to move at least ten feet from your starting position for skirmish to kick in. So, that would probably preclude you from, say, dancing around a single enemy and getting skirmish damage all the way through. Now, if you replace skirmish with riposte (Cityscape web enhancement), it becomes more interesting. Riposte activates (with the same damage/AC bonus that skirmish would give) whenever someone attacks you - doesn't matter if they hit.

You might also think about snagging a few levels of tempest. The requirements are rather blah, but you've got most of them already. Reduced penalties to your off-hand weapon, an untyped bonus to AC when dual wielding, and two weapon spring attack if you take all five levels. Since you'd be dancing through most fights, that last feature seems kind of pointless.

Oh, take a look at PHB2 as well. There's a swashbuckler ACF that replaces the dodge bonus to AC with a shield bonus to AC when dual wielding. It's one higher than the dodge bonus would have been.
#4
hijaxx
May 24, 2009 2:38:52
The skirmish ability, though, says you need to move at least ten feet from your starting position for skirmish to kick in. So, that would probably preclude you from, say, dancing around a single enemy and getting skirmish damage all the way through.

tell me why you cant just move 10 feet around the target? for example, from diagonally adjacent square A to diagonally adjacent square B.
#5
muertog
May 24, 2009 2:59:13 As you have picked a small race (and lowered Str), you are going to have to look for a way to do additional damage w/ the Dervish dance. Dex-to-damage would help in a fairly major way.

Skirmish to damage -does- work w/ Dervish dance. Just move 10' away to "activate" skirmish, 10' back (attack 1), and move around enemy for each additional attack. Whisper Gnomes do have 30' movement, improved w/ scout as well.

Titan Fighting is great for you (small), as well as Acrobatic Backstab and Shrouded Dance (with your high Int/skill points).
#6
ikildkenny
May 24, 2009 4:41:39 allthough the entry is slower i allways liked the carmedine monk entry to dervish ... it gives you 2 of the prereq. feats and int to AC - since that is going to be one of your most important stats anyways

you have to take a look at multiclass penalties - since non of the taken classes (swash, monk, fighter) are favored classes for you ...

Swash 1: Weapon focus (Scimitar), Weapon finess (b)
Monk 1 : improved unarmed strike (b), dodge (b) [cobra strike school, UA]
Monk 2: Mobility (b), Carmedine Monk [Champs of Valor]
Swash 2: [Arcane Stund ACF - take Spiderclimb, since it synergizes with you ability and NEED to move]
Fighter 1: Combat Expertice (b)
Fighter 2: Two Weapon Fighting, improved Two Weapon Fighting (b)
Swash 3: [insightfull strike]
Devish 1: Spring Attack [b]
Dervis 2: Improved Critical
...
Dervish 5: Greater two weapon Fighting

Stats could look like:

STR 13 -2 =11
CON 13 +2 = 15 +1= 16
DEX 16 +2 = 18
INT 16
Wis 12
CHA 9 -2=7

Items: Gloves of dex +2, from level 7 on Headband of INT +2, Bracers of Armor, maybe Item \w Bonus to tumble ...

Skills:
Max out Perform and Tumble - those are the most important skills you have ... the rest is optionall (allthough i would put one point each into the two knowledges monk grants you - one into know(arc) because it is prereq for arcane stunt and the other one, because you have a high int score - thus you can make use of them ...
#7
nickresonance
May 24, 2009 14:28:26
tell me why you cant just move 10 feet around the target? for example, from diagonally adjacent square A to diagonally adjacent square B.

You certainly can do that. However, by RAW, I think it would work something like this:

You start in square A, and the enemy is in square E, which is directly adjacent to you. You start the dervish dance, and on your first attack get no skirmish damage (since you haven't moved). Then you take a five foot step into diagonally adjacent square B (to the left of square E) and do another attack, again with no skirmish damage. Another five foot step takes you to diagonally adjacent square C (above E), and no skirmish damage kicks in, as you've moved ten feet from your starting position. Another five foot step takes you to diagonally adjacent square D (to the right of E). Now, though, you're only five feet away from where you started, so technically speaking skirmish damage no longer applies.
#8
hijaxx
May 24, 2009 15:12:41 do it like this:
enemy is in square D
you are in square A, diagonally adjacent to square D.
10 ft movement to square B, which is also diagonally adjacent to square D. attack, skirmish damage.
5 ft movement to square C, which is also directly adjacent to square D, and also adjacent to the square which is directly opposite square A. attack, skirmish.
back to B, attack, skirmish.
back to C, attack, skirmish
continue as nessecary.
#9
seekanddestroy
May 24, 2009 15:17:41 I am open to another race. Maybe human or catfolk. Is their any feat that gets dex to dam?
#10
true_shinken
May 24, 2009 19:36:33
I am open to another race. Maybe human or catfolk. Is their any feat that gets dex to dam?

Shadow Blade. You are stuck with daggers, then, but really... who cares? ^^

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 seekanddestroy May 23, 2009 22:55:19	I have read a lot of the Dervish handbook. I am finally after years getting ready to start a new campaign. The party really needs a Wizard but I want to play a Whisper Gnome Dervish. The game is 3.5. I have access to many books. We can use quiet a bit besides stuff like Dragon. I like the Swash/Fighter/Dervish. I will be starting on level 4. 3.5 Level 4 WG Dervish 16,16,13,13,12,9 rolled not to bad So far I put them: Dex-16 +2 rac mod =18 Int- 16 =16 Con-13 +2rac mod +1 for 4th level=16 Str-13 -2 rac mod =11 Wis-12 =12 Cha-9 -2 rac mod =7 I was wondering a few things: Is this the best order for ability scores? Is their a best order to take the levels in? I have 5500gp, what's the best way to spend it? Feats, what is the optimal order? I can take flaws, I was thinking murky eyed would be best. I would like to have imp. crit at ninth level. Any other thing you can think of would be most appreciated.
#2 xkullx May 24, 2009 0:11:17	Headband of Int +2 and Gloves of dex +2 Ok items, though Im sure there are better, though 5500 isnt a whole lot. You need Combat expertise, dodge, mobility and weapon focus to enter the Dervish class. If you wanna go fast, throw in a couple of Fighter levels to get bonus feats. Two weapon fighting and Improved two weapon fighting are important. Improved critical is also good for dishing out more damage, though many would argue to buy a keen weapon or something simular, with the feat you save a lot of money. Also if you go the fastest build Swashbuckler 3 / Fighter 2 / Dervish +++, you can Subsitute Grace from the swa. with for instance Blur as a swift action 1+int modifier a day ( last 1 round ) , Complete Mage page 32. I am by no means an expert, but here is my build http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1192738
#3 nickresonance May 24, 2009 2:20:19	A couple of ideas I'd like to throw out there just because. Scout might be an interesting compliment to swashbuckler when entering dervish. Depending on your DM's interpretation, you MAY get to add skirmish damage to all of your attacks during a dervish dance since you keep moving. The skirmish ability, though, says you need to move at least ten feet from your starting position for skirmish to kick in. So, that would probably preclude you from, say, dancing around a single enemy and getting skirmish damage all the way through. Now, if you replace skirmish with riposte (Cityscape web enhancement), it becomes more interesting. Riposte activates (with the same damage/AC bonus that skirmish would give) whenever someone attacks you - doesn't matter if they hit. You might also think about snagging a few levels of tempest. The requirements are rather blah, but you've got most of them already. Reduced penalties to your off-hand weapon, an untyped bonus to AC when dual wielding, and two weapon spring attack if you take all five levels. Since you'd be dancing through most fights, that last feature seems kind of pointless. Oh, take a look at PHB2 as well. There's a swashbuckler ACF that replaces the dodge bonus to AC with a shield bonus to AC when dual wielding. It's one higher than the dodge bonus would have been.
#4 hijaxx May 24, 2009 2:38:52	The skirmish ability, though, says you need to move at least ten feet from your starting position for skirmish to kick in. So, that would probably preclude you from, say, dancing around a single enemy and getting skirmish damage all the way through. tell me why you cant just move 10 feet around the target? for example, from diagonally adjacent square A to diagonally adjacent square B.
#5 muertog May 24, 2009 2:59:13	As you have picked a small race (and lowered Str), you are going to have to look for a way to do additional damage w/ the Dervish dance. Dex-to-damage would help in a fairly major way. Skirmish to damage -does- work w/ Dervish dance. Just move 10' away to "activate" skirmish, 10' back (attack 1), and move around enemy for each additional attack. Whisper Gnomes do have 30' movement, improved w/ scout as well. Titan Fighting is great for you (small), as well as Acrobatic Backstab and Shrouded Dance (with your high Int/skill points).
#6 ikildkenny May 24, 2009 4:41:39	allthough the entry is slower i allways liked the carmedine monk entry to dervish ... it gives you 2 of the prereq. feats and int to AC - since that is going to be one of your most important stats anyways you have to take a look at multiclass penalties - since non of the taken classes (swash, monk, fighter) are favored classes for you ... Swash 1: Weapon focus (Scimitar), Weapon finess (b) Monk 1 : improved unarmed strike (b), dodge (b) [cobra strike school, UA] Monk 2: Mobility (b), Carmedine Monk [Champs of Valor] Swash 2: [Arcane Stund ACF - take Spiderclimb, since it synergizes with you ability and NEED to move] Fighter 1: Combat Expertice (b) Fighter 2: Two Weapon Fighting, improved Two Weapon Fighting (b) Swash 3: [insightfull strike] Devish 1: Spring Attack [b] Dervis 2: Improved Critical ... Dervish 5: Greater two weapon Fighting Stats could look like: STR 13 -2 =11 CON 13 +2 = 15 +1= 16 DEX 16 +2 = 18 INT 16 Wis 12 CHA 9 -2=7 Items: Gloves of dex +2, from level 7 on Headband of INT +2, Bracers of Armor, maybe Item \w Bonus to tumble ... Skills: Max out Perform and Tumble - those are the most important skills you have ... the rest is optionall (allthough i would put one point each into the two knowledges monk grants you - one into know(arc) because it is prereq for arcane stunt and the other one, because you have a high int score - thus you can make use of them ...
#7 nickresonance May 24, 2009 14:28:26	tell me why you cant just move 10 feet around the target? for example, from diagonally adjacent square A to diagonally adjacent square B. You certainly can do that. However, by RAW, I think it would work something like this: You start in square A, and the enemy is in square E, which is directly adjacent to you. You start the dervish dance, and on your first attack get no skirmish damage (since you haven't moved). Then you take a five foot step into diagonally adjacent square B (to the left of square E) and do another attack, again with no skirmish damage. Another five foot step takes you to diagonally adjacent square C (above E), and no skirmish damage kicks in, as you've moved ten feet from your starting position. Another five foot step takes you to diagonally adjacent square D (to the right of E). Now, though, you're only five feet away from where you started, so technically speaking skirmish damage no longer applies.
#8 hijaxx May 24, 2009 15:12:41	do it like this: enemy is in square D you are in square A, diagonally adjacent to square D. 10 ft movement to square B, which is also diagonally adjacent to square D. attack, skirmish damage. 5 ft movement to square C, which is also directly adjacent to square D, and also adjacent to the square which is directly opposite square A. attack, skirmish. back to B, attack, skirmish. back to C, attack, skirmish continue as nessecary.
#9 seekanddestroy May 24, 2009 15:17:41	I am open to another race. Maybe human or catfolk. Is their any feat that gets dex to dam?
#10 true_shinken May 24, 2009 19:36:33	I am open to another race. Maybe human or catfolk. Is their any feat that gets dex to dam? Shadow Blade. You are stuck with daggers, then, but really... who cares? ^^