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Help with Dragon Gish

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
trickz
Nov 16, 2008 18:19:41 Basically I need help making a dragonlike gish (breath attack, wings for flying, and all the gish stuff) that will be able to play well in our campaign.

All books are allowed as well as variant rules.
We can take 2 flaws.
28 point buy.
Starting at level 6 and we'll probably last until 10-15, but a full 20 level build would be preferred.

So far I have thought about a Dragonborn (Heart) Human with:
Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / EK 1 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight +7
And taking the feats Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings at level 1 and 6 to give flight for a number of rounds equal to Con modifer. The Heart aspect of Dragonborn gives a breath attack of (fire/electricity/cold/acid) and it has a CL of 18 and BAB of +17.

But that build seems like a rather ordinary gish with wings/breath attack tacked on and relatively useless because of spells allowing for flight and better damage, so I would like to make the dragon features more useful.
Also, if you have any ideas for a dragonlike character that is not a gish that would also be nice ^^
#2
kell_kheraptis
Nov 16, 2008 18:26:37
Basically I need help making a dragonlike gish (breath attack, wings for flying, and all the gish stuff) that will be able to play well in our campaign.

All books are allowed as well as variant rules.
We can take 2 flaws.
28 point buy.
Starting at level 6 and we'll probably last until 10-15, but a full 20 level build would be preferred.

So far I have thought about a Dragonborn (Heart) Human with:
Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / EK 1 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight +7
And taking the feats Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings at level 1 and 6 to give flight for a number of rounds equal to Con modifer. The Heart aspect of Dragonborn gives a breath attack of (fire/electricity/cold/acid) and it has a CL of 18 and BAB of +17.

But that build seems like a rather ordinary gish with wings/breath attack tacked on and relatively useless because of spells allowing for flight and better damage, so I would like to make the dragon features more useful.
Also, if you have any ideas for a dragonlike character that is not a gish that would also be nice ^^

When I was looking for something like this, someone suggested a Dragonborn Favored Soul of Bahamut/Tiamat, and I'd say that's about as close as you can get (go raptorian for base race to get in-built flight, and the Dragon Tail feat to finish out the natural attack scheme, then use divine buffs to prep for melee mayhem).
#3
kurashu
Nov 16, 2008 18:59:33 Wouldn't you lose flight with a dragonborn raptoran? If not, go with a dragonborn raptoran. I'd go with a sorcerer base instead of a wizard. In that case, you could go with sacred exorcist instead of eldritch knight and gain turn undead to power divine might. You'd lose a point of BAB that way though. Crusader is also a good choice instead of fighter.

*shrugs* Just suggestions. Clerics and favored souls are also good choices too.
#4
rasmus_wagner
Nov 17, 2008 4:47:42 Dragonwrought Kobold, stay in small dragon form all the time with Alter Self. Use spells to emulate/grant breath weapons. Insist at all times that you're an actual dragon.
#5
pithica
Nov 17, 2008 12:49:30
Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / EK 1 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight +7

Human Paragon 3/Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8

Is signifigantly more skillpoints than the above, with only one lower Caster level (but still 9th level spells). In exchange you get more hitpoints, a bonus feat, +1 BAB and +2 extra to a stat.

Exchanging 2 levels of Eldritch Knight for two levels of Paragnostic Apostle loses you one BAB, but grants +4 AC (+2 to GMage Armor and +2 to Shield), and potentially +20 to your movement(s).
#6
phaedrusxy
Nov 17, 2008 13:05:41
Dragonwrought Kobold, stay in small dragon form all the time with Alter Self. Use spells to emulate/grant breath weapons. Insist at all times that you're an actual dragon.

God... I just had a terrible, wonderful idea.

Dragonwrought kobold sorcerer1/psion3 going into cerebremancer. Take Precocious Apprentice: Alter Self, and Metamagic Transfer. Alter Self into a shadow dragon, and use Metamagic Transfer to breathe on someone.

There are also spells and feats that will let you turn your spell slots into breath weapons, IIRC. Add that on later.
#7
ChristopherGroves
Nov 17, 2008 13:28:44 A simple one would be ...

Dragonborn (whatever) - Wings - Duskblade 13 / Dragonheart Mage 7

Should do fine ... snag draconic feats (claws, etc.) plus you get some bonus ones from Dragonheart Mage.
#8
feloniousela
Nov 17, 2008 16:19:09
Human Paragon 3/Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8

Is signifigantly more skillpoints than the above, with only one lower Caster level (but still 9th level spells). In exchange you get more hitpoints, a bonus feat, +1 BAB and +2 extra to a stat.

It would have to be staggered...You can't start with three levels in Paragon unless you have a level of wizard first. Also, though you do end up with 9th level spells, you are THREE levels behind the progression of all other wizards when you get to the levels that really count (12-20). Not getting 9th level spells until level 20, when other people have them as of 17 is a painful three levels. Trust me. On the other hand you can make UMD a class skill for whatever class you level in, and that's nice. It lets you function as an item based healer if your group is really hard up.

Also, you don't REALLY get a bonus feat, as you are trading the bonus wizard one for a bonus Paragon one. You get a more versatile bonus feat, but it's not really that big of an advantage at all. The BAB isn't that big of a deal either with all of the buffs you'll have. Actually, losing a few spell slots per day because of the one CL loss ends up most likely costing you more than +1 BAB....and probably a bunch of skill points too. The things you can do witha few more spells/day are definitely better.
#9
vicen_korel
Nov 18, 2008 2:08:59 Dragonborn (mind) Raptorian
Stalwart, Dragon Blood, Battle Sorcerer (sorc)

Sorc 4, Fighter 1, Dragon Heart Mage 2, Stormtalon 4, Dragon Disciple 2, Stormtalon 4, Dragon Disciple 2, Dreagon Heart Mage 2, Abjurant Champion 5

In that order with the following feats

B (from battle sorcerer) -- MWP(foot bow)
B (from Stalwart) -- MWP(Long Sword)
B (from Stalwart) -- WF(Long Sword)
B (from Dragon Blood) -- Draconic Heritage
1st -- Dragon Tail
Flaw -- Aberant Blood
Flaw -- Inhuman Reach
3rd -- Deepspawn
B (from Fighter) -- Improved Toughness
6 -- Beastial Hide
B (from Dragon Heart Mage) -- Draconic Breath
B (from Dragon heart Mage) -- Draconic Claw
9 -- Durable Form
B (from stormtalon) -- Multi Attack
B (from stormtalon) -- Improved Flight
12 -- Waterspawn
B (from Dragon Heart Mage) -- Draconic Toughness
15 -- Combat Casting
18 -- Arcane Strike

STR 12 (14 after DD) DEX 12 (14 before dragonborn) CON 18 (16 before dragon born) INT 10 WIS 8 CHA 16
HD 2d12 + 10d10 + 4d8 + 4d6 + 8 + 12 + 8 + 60 (238 HP)
BAB +16
Fort + 15 (+19 after stat Mod)
Ref + 4 (+5 after stat Mod)
Will + 16 (+ 15 after stat Mod)
AC 15 (+ 1 Dex +4 Natural *add armor of your flavor*)
Movement Modes: 30 ft walking 50 Flight, 30 ft swimming
Reach: 10 ft
Full Attack +13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13
(bite/claw/claw/claw/claw/tail/tentacle/tentacle)
Damage d6+2/d6+2/d6+2/d6+2/d6+2/d6+2/d4+2/d4+2
(add +x/+xd4 where x equals spell slot sacrificed to Arcane Strike)
Sorcerer Casting Level 16th (12th before Martial Arcanist)
Spells Per Day
5/5/5/5/5/4/2
Spells Known
8/4/4/3/1/1/1
Special Qualities: Waterbreathing, Airbreathing, flight (50/good), Lowlight x 4, Darkvision 120 ft, Blindsense 30, Immunity paralysis, Sleep, Frightful Presence, Abjurant Armor, Extended Abjuration, Swift Abjuration, Arcane Boost, Martial Arcanist, Cold Resistance 5
Weapon and Armor Proficienies: All Simple, All Martial, Foot bow, Light and Medium Armor (can cast in light with no ASF), all shields
Skills: Concentration (max ranks) Knowledge (arcane) (at least 8 ranks)
Languages: Common, Draconic
#10
cru
Nov 18, 2008 4:01:11 Druid 12, Dragon Wild Shape.
#11
pithica
Nov 18, 2008 8:06:46
It would have to be staggered...You can't start with three levels in Paragon unless you have a level of wizard first. Also, though you do end up with 9th level spells, you are THREE levels behind the progression of all other wizards when you get to the levels that really count (12-20). Not getting 9th level spells until level 20, when other people have them as of 17 is a painful three levels. Trust me. On the other hand you can make UMD a class skill for whatever class you level in, and that's nice. It lets you function as an item based healer if your group is really hard up.

You are correct about staggering the levels, I should have pointed that out, I just assumed that was a given.

Gish's are not played like Wizards. They don't NEED higher level spells as quickly as other spellcaster's do. I've played, and had friends play, this exact build (with one or more minor variations) at many different levels multiple times. I've played it without ever getting 9th level spells, sacrificing two of the EK levels for Spellsword +2 so I get an extra fighter feat and can cast in Mithril Full Plate (twilight) with no ASF.

Played right, noone is ever going to say, 'your build sucks, you're 3 spell levels behind the wizard'. More often you'll hear things like, "your AC is what?!?!", "What do you mean you're immune?", "Could you not solo *this* dragon in two rounds?"

Also, you don't REALLY get a bonus feat, as you are trading the bonus wizard one for a bonus Paragon one. You get a more versatile bonus feat, but it's not really that big of an advantage at all. The BAB isn't that big of a deal either with all of the buffs you'll have. Actually, losing a few spell slots per day because of the one CL loss ends up most likely costing you more than +1 BAB....and probably a bunch of skill points too. The things you can do witha few more spells/day are definitely better.

The difference between a final caster level of 18 (his build), and a final caster level of 17(mine), as a wizard is 1 8th and 1 9th. The +2 Int from human paragon, will very likely make up for one of the two. (If it bumps your base from 18-20, you'll get a bonus 8th with the +6 Int helm. If it bumps your base from 20-22, you'll get a bonus 9th.)

Still you're right, it's an 8th and a 9th level slot, which is a big deal, for a straight caster. There are a lot of things you can do with an 8th or a 9th. So, let's make up for it....

Instead of Wizard, go Diviner. Drop Enchantment. There's you're 8th and 9th slot back. Need more? Go Focused Specialist Diviner, drop Enchant and Evocation, now you have one more 8th and 9th than the previous build.

But really, this is overkill, and I'm telling you this from personal experience. You don't NEED the extra spells, as a Gish. They're nice, but in actual play your spells serve 3 roles. In the morning, you mem spells, and cast about a third (or more) of them on yourself meant to last all day. The rest are memmed as utility spells, with a couple of 'get out of jail free' cards, maybe an extra buff or two (that won't last all day), and maybe a debuff. In combat, you may spend the first round buffing, and after that, you'll usually just charge in (or stand back if you go archer) and slaughter anything and everything with arcane strike. You'll easily throw around 200-500 damage a round, and your DM will have to build encounters specifically to prevent you from doing any damage to the opponent. Your friends will hate you.

You aren't a spellcaster, you don't fit in the God/Controller role. You're somewhere between the BSF and the Glass Cannon.
#12
kurashu
Nov 18, 2008 13:37:37
Dragonborn (mind) Raptorian
Stalwart, Dragon Blood, Battle Sorcerer (sorc)

Sorc 4, Fighter 1, Dragon Heart Mage 2, Stormtalon 4, Dragon Disciple 2, Stormtalon 4, Dragon Disciple 2, Dreagon Heart Mage 2, Abjurant Champion 5

Except two things: battle sorcerer is bad and stormtalon doesn't advance casting nor does dragon disciple. You don't want to give up known spells for an extra point of BAB and a martial weapon -- a martial weapon you'll be getting free with fighter. In effect you have 13 levels of casting at most -- I forget what levels Dragon heart mage loses levels.

Kudos to a ton of bonus feats though.

I have to say that wouldn't sorcerer spellcasting be more in line with dragon flavor rather than wizard casting?

Dragonborn (heart) Raptoran
Human Paragon 3/Fighter 1/~~Wizard~~ Sorcerer 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/~~Eldritch Knight~~ Sacred Exorcist 8

It loses two points of BAB (Down to 16) but gets 18th level casting (1 9th level spells known -- wish or shapechange or time stop?) and gans turn undead. Grab up divine might that way and work charisma. Take dragon tail if you really want and maybe take reinforced wings so you can fly with medium armor (mithral full plate with twilight and whatever else). And of course, the feat in CMage that lets you apply metamagic on the fly without increased time.
#13
feloniousela
Nov 18, 2008 15:52:41
You are correct about staggering the levels, I should have pointed that out, I just assumed that was a given.

Gish's are not played like Wizards. They don't NEED higher level spells as quickly as other spellcaster's do. I've played, and had friends play, this exact build (with one or more minor variations) at many different levels multiple times. I've played it without ever getting 9th level spells, sacrificing two of the EK levels for Spellsword +2 so I get an extra fighter feat and can cast in Mithril Full Plate (twilight) with no ASF.

Played right, noone is ever going to say, 'your build sucks, you're 3 spell levels behind the wizard'. More often you'll hear things like, "your AC is what?!?!", "What do you mean you're immune?", "Could you not solo *this* dragon in two rounds?"

The difference between a final caster level of 18 (his build), and a final caster level of 17(mine), as a wizard is 1 8th and 1 9th. The +2 Int from human paragon, will very likely make up for one of the two. (If it bumps your base from 18-20, you'll get a bonus 8th with the +6 Int helm. If it bumps your base from 20-22, you'll get a bonus 9th.)

Still you're right, it's an 8th and a 9th level slot, which is a big deal, for a straight caster. There are a lot of things you can do with an 8th or a 9th. So, let's make up for it....

Instead of Wizard, go Diviner. Drop Enchantment. There's you're 8th and 9th slot back. Need more? Go Focused Specialist Diviner, drop Enchant and Evocation, now you have one more 8th and 9th than the previous build.

But really, this is overkill, and I'm telling you this from personal experience. You don't NEED the extra spells, as a Gish. They're nice, but in actual play your spells serve 3 roles. In the morning, you mem spells, and cast about a third (or more) of them on yourself meant to last all day. The rest are memmed as utility spells, with a couple of 'get out of jail free' cards, maybe an extra buff or two (that won't last all day), and maybe a debuff. In combat, you may spend the first round buffing, and after that, you'll usually just charge in (or stand back if you go archer) and slaughter anything and everything with arcane strike. You'll easily throw around 200-500 damage a round, and your DM will have to build encounters specifically to prevent you from doing any damage to the opponent. Your friends will hate you.

You aren't a spellcaster, you don't fit in the God/Controller role. You're somewhere between the BSF and the Glass Cannon.

I understand quite well the power of that build. I also understand the power of the Shapechange spell. I want it as early as possible. Even for a Gish, losing a few top level spell slots hurts quite a bit. The spells up there are just THAT good. I do see exactly where you are coming from though, and I agree with you. I'm just arguing that either way you can't really go wrong....haha the build will be devastating at what it does regardless. Just trying to present both sides.
#14
vicen_korel
Nov 23, 2008 2:45:30 That's supposed to be racial fighter for raptorian.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 trickz Nov 16, 2008 18:19:41	Basically I need help making a dragonlike gish (breath attack, wings for flying, and all the gish stuff) that will be able to play well in our campaign. All books are allowed as well as variant rules. We can take 2 flaws. 28 point buy. Starting at level 6 and we'll probably last until 10-15, but a full 20 level build would be preferred. So far I have thought about a Dragonborn (Heart) Human with: Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / EK 1 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight +7 And taking the feats Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings at level 1 and 6 to give flight for a number of rounds equal to Con modifer. The Heart aspect of Dragonborn gives a breath attack of (fire/electricity/cold/acid) and it has a CL of 18 and BAB of +17. But that build seems like a rather ordinary gish with wings/breath attack tacked on and relatively useless because of spells allowing for flight and better damage, so I would like to make the dragon features more useful. Also, if you have any ideas for a dragonlike character that is not a gish that would also be nice ^^
#2 kell_kheraptis Nov 16, 2008 18:26:37	Basically I need help making a dragonlike gish (breath attack, wings for flying, and all the gish stuff) that will be able to play well in our campaign. All books are allowed as well as variant rules. We can take 2 flaws. 28 point buy. Starting at level 6 and we'll probably last until 10-15, but a full 20 level build would be preferred. So far I have thought about a Dragonborn (Heart) Human with: Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / EK 1 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight +7 And taking the feats Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings at level 1 and 6 to give flight for a number of rounds equal to Con modifer. The Heart aspect of Dragonborn gives a breath attack of (fire/electricity/cold/acid) and it has a CL of 18 and BAB of +17. But that build seems like a rather ordinary gish with wings/breath attack tacked on and relatively useless because of spells allowing for flight and better damage, so I would like to make the dragon features more useful. Also, if you have any ideas for a dragonlike character that is not a gish that would also be nice ^^ When I was looking for something like this, someone suggested a Dragonborn Favored Soul of Bahamut/Tiamat, and I'd say that's about as close as you can get (go raptorian for base race to get in-built flight, and the Dragon Tail feat to finish out the natural attack scheme, then use divine buffs to prep for melee mayhem).
#3 kurashu Nov 16, 2008 18:59:33	Wouldn't you lose flight with a dragonborn raptoran? If not, go with a dragonborn raptoran. I'd go with a sorcerer base instead of a wizard. In that case, you could go with sacred exorcist instead of eldritch knight and gain turn undead to power divine might. You'd lose a point of BAB that way though. Crusader is also a good choice instead of fighter. shrugs Just suggestions. Clerics and favored souls are also good choices too.
#4 rasmus_wagner Nov 17, 2008 4:47:42	Dragonwrought Kobold, stay in small dragon form all the time with Alter Self. Use spells to emulate/grant breath weapons. Insist at all times that you're an actual dragon.
#5 pithica Nov 17, 2008 12:49:30	Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / EK 1 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight +7 Human Paragon 3/Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8 Is signifigantly more skillpoints than the above, with only one lower Caster level (but still 9th level spells). In exchange you get more hitpoints, a bonus feat, +1 BAB and +2 extra to a stat. Exchanging 2 levels of Eldritch Knight for two levels of Paragnostic Apostle loses you one BAB, but grants +4 AC (+2 to GMage Armor and +2 to Shield), and potentially +20 to your movement(s).
#6 phaedrusxy Nov 17, 2008 13:05:41	Dragonwrought Kobold, stay in small dragon form all the time with Alter Self. Use spells to emulate/grant breath weapons. Insist at all times that you're an actual dragon. God... I just had a terrible, wonderful idea. Dragonwrought kobold sorcerer1/psion3 going into cerebremancer. Take Precocious Apprentice: Alter Self, and Metamagic Transfer. Alter Self into a shadow dragon, and use Metamagic Transfer to breathe on someone. There are also spells and feats that will let you turn your spell slots into breath weapons, IIRC. Add that on later.
#7 ChristopherGroves Nov 17, 2008 13:28:44	A simple one would be ... Dragonborn (whatever) - Wings - Duskblade 13 / Dragonheart Mage 7 Should do fine ... snag draconic feats (claws, etc.) plus you get some bonus ones from Dragonheart Mage.
#8 feloniousela Nov 17, 2008 16:19:09	Human Paragon 3/Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8 Is signifigantly more skillpoints than the above, with only one lower Caster level (but still 9th level spells). In exchange you get more hitpoints, a bonus feat, +1 BAB and +2 extra to a stat. It would have to be staggered...You can't start with three levels in Paragon unless you have a level of wizard first. Also, though you do end up with 9th level spells, you are THREE levels behind the progression of all other wizards when you get to the levels that really count (12-20). Not getting 9th level spells until level 20, when other people have them as of 17 is a painful three levels. Trust me. On the other hand you can make UMD a class skill for whatever class you level in, and that's nice. It lets you function as an item based healer if your group is really hard up. Also, you don't REALLY get a bonus feat, as you are trading the bonus wizard one for a bonus Paragon one. You get a more versatile bonus feat, but it's not really that big of an advantage at all. The BAB isn't that big of a deal either with all of the buffs you'll have. Actually, losing a few spell slots per day because of the one CL loss ends up most likely costing you more than +1 BAB....and probably a bunch of skill points too. The things you can do witha few more spells/day are definitely better.
#9 vicen_korel Nov 18, 2008 2:08:59	Dragonborn (mind) Raptorian Stalwart, Dragon Blood, Battle Sorcerer (sorc) Sorc 4, Fighter 1, Dragon Heart Mage 2, Stormtalon 4, Dragon Disciple 2, Stormtalon 4, Dragon Disciple 2, Dreagon Heart Mage 2, Abjurant Champion 5 In that order with the following feats B (from battle sorcerer) -- MWP(foot bow) B (from Stalwart) -- MWP(Long Sword) B (from Stalwart) -- WF(Long Sword) B (from Dragon Blood) -- Draconic Heritage 1st -- Dragon Tail Flaw -- Aberant Blood Flaw -- Inhuman Reach 3rd -- Deepspawn B (from Fighter) -- Improved Toughness 6 -- Beastial Hide B (from Dragon Heart Mage) -- Draconic Breath B (from Dragon heart Mage) -- Draconic Claw 9 -- Durable Form B (from stormtalon) -- Multi Attack B (from stormtalon) -- Improved Flight 12 -- Waterspawn B (from Dragon Heart Mage) -- Draconic Toughness 15 -- Combat Casting 18 -- Arcane Strike STR 12 (14 after DD) DEX 12 (14 before dragonborn) CON 18 (16 before dragon born) INT 10 WIS 8 CHA 16 HD 2d12 + 10d10 + 4d8 + 4d6 + 8 + 12 + 8 + 60 (238 HP) BAB +16 Fort + 15 (+19 after stat Mod) Ref + 4 (+5 after stat Mod) Will + 16 (+ 15 after stat Mod) AC 15 (+ 1 Dex +4 Natural add armor of your flavor) Movement Modes: 30 ft walking 50 Flight, 30 ft swimming Reach: 10 ft Full Attack +13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13 (bite/claw/claw/claw/claw/tail/tentacle/tentacle) Damage d6+2/d6+2/d6+2/d6+2/d6+2/d6+2/d4+2/d4+2 (add +x/+xd4 where x equals spell slot sacrificed to Arcane Strike) Sorcerer Casting Level 16th (12th before Martial Arcanist) Spells Per Day 5/5/5/5/5/4/2 Spells Known 8/4/4/3/1/1/1 Special Qualities: Waterbreathing, Airbreathing, flight (50/good), Lowlight x 4, Darkvision 120 ft, Blindsense 30, Immunity paralysis, Sleep, Frightful Presence, Abjurant Armor, Extended Abjuration, Swift Abjuration, Arcane Boost, Martial Arcanist, Cold Resistance 5 Weapon and Armor Proficienies: All Simple, All Martial, Foot bow, Light and Medium Armor (can cast in light with no ASF), all shields Skills: Concentration (max ranks) Knowledge (arcane) (at least 8 ranks) Languages: Common, Draconic
#10 cru Nov 18, 2008 4:01:11	Druid 12, Dragon Wild Shape.
#11 pithica Nov 18, 2008 8:06:46	It would have to be staggered...You can't start with three levels in Paragon unless you have a level of wizard first. Also, though you do end up with 9th level spells, you are THREE levels behind the progression of all other wizards when you get to the levels that really count (12-20). Not getting 9th level spells until level 20, when other people have them as of 17 is a painful three levels. Trust me. On the other hand you can make UMD a class skill for whatever class you level in, and that's nice. It lets you function as an item based healer if your group is really hard up. You are correct about staggering the levels, I should have pointed that out, I just assumed that was a given. Gish's are not played like Wizards. They don't NEED higher level spells as quickly as other spellcaster's do. I've played, and had friends play, this exact build (with one or more minor variations) at many different levels multiple times. I've played it without ever getting 9th level spells, sacrificing two of the EK levels for Spellsword +2 so I get an extra fighter feat and can cast in Mithril Full Plate (twilight) with no ASF. Played right, noone is ever going to say, 'your build sucks, you're 3 spell levels behind the wizard'. More often you'll hear things like, "your AC is what?!?!", "What do you mean you're immune?", "Could you not solo this dragon in two rounds?" Also, you don't REALLY get a bonus feat, as you are trading the bonus wizard one for a bonus Paragon one. You get a more versatile bonus feat, but it's not really that big of an advantage at all. The BAB isn't that big of a deal either with all of the buffs you'll have. Actually, losing a few spell slots per day because of the one CL loss ends up most likely costing you more than +1 BAB....and probably a bunch of skill points too. The things you can do witha few more spells/day are definitely better. The difference between a final caster level of 18 (his build), and a final caster level of 17(mine), as a wizard is 1 8th and 1 9th. The +2 Int from human paragon, will very likely make up for one of the two. (If it bumps your base from 18-20, you'll get a bonus 8th with the +6 Int helm. If it bumps your base from 20-22, you'll get a bonus 9th.) Still you're right, it's an 8th and a 9th level slot, which is a big deal, for a straight caster. There are a lot of things you can do with an 8th or a 9th. So, let's make up for it.... Instead of Wizard, go Diviner. Drop Enchantment. There's you're 8th and 9th slot back. Need more? Go Focused Specialist Diviner, drop Enchant and Evocation, now you have one more 8th and 9th than the previous build. But really, this is overkill, and I'm telling you this from personal experience. You don't NEED the extra spells, as a Gish. They're nice, but in actual play your spells serve 3 roles. In the morning, you mem spells, and cast about a third (or more) of them on yourself meant to last all day. The rest are memmed as utility spells, with a couple of 'get out of jail free' cards, maybe an extra buff or two (that won't last all day), and maybe a debuff. In combat, you may spend the first round buffing, and after that, you'll usually just charge in (or stand back if you go archer) and slaughter anything and everything with arcane strike. You'll easily throw around 200-500 damage a round, and your DM will have to build encounters specifically to prevent you from doing any damage to the opponent. Your friends will hate you. You aren't a spellcaster, you don't fit in the God/Controller role. You're somewhere between the BSF and the Glass Cannon.
#12 kurashu Nov 18, 2008 13:37:37	Dragonborn (mind) Raptorian Stalwart, Dragon Blood, Battle Sorcerer (sorc) Sorc 4, Fighter 1, Dragon Heart Mage 2, Stormtalon 4, Dragon Disciple 2, Stormtalon 4, Dragon Disciple 2, Dreagon Heart Mage 2, Abjurant Champion 5 Except two things: battle sorcerer is bad and stormtalon doesn't advance casting nor does dragon disciple. You don't want to give up known spells for an extra point of BAB and a martial weapon -- a martial weapon you'll be getting free with fighter. In effect you have 13 levels of casting at most -- I forget what levels Dragon heart mage loses levels. Kudos to a ton of bonus feats though. I have to say that wouldn't sorcerer spellcasting be more in line with dragon flavor rather than wizard casting? Dragonborn (heart) Raptoran Human Paragon 3/Fighter 1/~~Wizard~~ Sorcerer 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/~~Eldritch Knight~~ Sacred Exorcist 8 It loses two points of BAB (Down to 16) but gets 18th level casting (1 9th level spells known -- wish or shapechange or time stop?) and gans turn undead. Grab up divine might that way and work charisma. Take dragon tail if you really want and maybe take reinforced wings so you can fly with medium armor (mithral full plate with twilight and whatever else). And of course, the feat in CMage that lets you apply metamagic on the fly without increased time.
#13 feloniousela Nov 18, 2008 15:52:41	You are correct about staggering the levels, I should have pointed that out, I just assumed that was a given. Gish's are not played like Wizards. They don't NEED higher level spells as quickly as other spellcaster's do. I've played, and had friends play, this exact build (with one or more minor variations) at many different levels multiple times. I've played it without ever getting 9th level spells, sacrificing two of the EK levels for Spellsword +2 so I get an extra fighter feat and can cast in Mithril Full Plate (twilight) with no ASF. Played right, noone is ever going to say, 'your build sucks, you're 3 spell levels behind the wizard'. More often you'll hear things like, "your AC is what?!?!", "What do you mean you're immune?", "Could you not solo this dragon in two rounds?" The difference between a final caster level of 18 (his build), and a final caster level of 17(mine), as a wizard is 1 8th and 1 9th. The +2 Int from human paragon, will very likely make up for one of the two. (If it bumps your base from 18-20, you'll get a bonus 8th with the +6 Int helm. If it bumps your base from 20-22, you'll get a bonus 9th.) Still you're right, it's an 8th and a 9th level slot, which is a big deal, for a straight caster. There are a lot of things you can do with an 8th or a 9th. So, let's make up for it.... Instead of Wizard, go Diviner. Drop Enchantment. There's you're 8th and 9th slot back. Need more? Go Focused Specialist Diviner, drop Enchant and Evocation, now you have one more 8th and 9th than the previous build. But really, this is overkill, and I'm telling you this from personal experience. You don't NEED the extra spells, as a Gish. They're nice, but in actual play your spells serve 3 roles. In the morning, you mem spells, and cast about a third (or more) of them on yourself meant to last all day. The rest are memmed as utility spells, with a couple of 'get out of jail free' cards, maybe an extra buff or two (that won't last all day), and maybe a debuff. In combat, you may spend the first round buffing, and after that, you'll usually just charge in (or stand back if you go archer) and slaughter anything and everything with arcane strike. You'll easily throw around 200-500 damage a round, and your DM will have to build encounters specifically to prevent you from doing any damage to the opponent. Your friends will hate you. You aren't a spellcaster, you don't fit in the God/Controller role. You're somewhere between the BSF and the Glass Cannon. I understand quite well the power of that build. I also understand the power of the Shapechange spell. I want it as early as possible. Even for a Gish, losing a few top level spell slots hurts quite a bit. The spells up there are just THAT good. I do see exactly where you are coming from though, and I agree with you. I'm just arguing that either way you can't really go wrong....haha the build will be devastating at what it does regardless. Just trying to present both sides.
#14 vicen_korel Nov 23, 2008 2:45:30	That's supposed to be racial fighter for raptorian.