Help with Gargoyle Character needed - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Help with Gargoyle Character needed

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
winternacht
Dec 14, 2008 7:02:44 Hello CO,

we are starting a new campain and a friend of mine wants to play a gargoyle... I am aware that this race is not about optimization. He also likes the thought of being somewhat sneaky as there is a nice hide bonus in the class. Further he wants to be a "melee sniper", something like "sneak and destroy" or "hit and run". He doesn't want any barbarian levels!
The first thing I thought of was giving him another +1LA with the dark creature template, boosting his hiding ability.

Oh yes, starting level is 15, all books exept Ebberon sources and 5N. It's a FR campain.

Thanks for any help we might get!
#2
vglcat
Dec 14, 2008 9:54:09 shadows good cause hide in plane site

but why not just use sniper's cross bow? (120 ft. range)
#3
Vicerious
Dec 14, 2008 12:15:42 Sneaky with big melee bursts? Rogue is a great place to start for that. Assuming alignment isn't an issue, taking assassin is a solid and thematically appropriate choice for a prestige class. With the gargoyle's racial hit dice and racial skill list, you'll have to do a little skill point juggling to qualify for assassin as soon as possible, but it shouldn't be too difficult to do; this is especially true with the rogue's generous allotment of skill points per level.
#4
ymuckluck
Dec 14, 2008 13:21:22 With the Gargoyle's low intelligence you might want to start with the spell casting prodigy feat. (if you go the assassin route)

Scout might be a good class with flyby attack.
#5
winternacht
Dec 15, 2008 1:06:31 Thanks for the ideas! Further ones will be taken gratefully.
#6
empirate
Dec 15, 2008 5:11:57 The Gargoyle's LA is +5. This has always struck me as a little high, and is probably mostly due to the mix of ability bonuses, flight and DR. However, DR 10/magic will be next to useless in a 15th level campaign, so you should try and talk to the DM about this. Even 10/- wouldn't be overpowered in such a high-level campaign, ask if the DM will let that fly. If not, try to get a decent Gargoyle variant without the DR, and maybe with less ability bonuses, for two less LA. Then, buy off the LA, and try to get the DM to OK you having bought off one LA before play starts. If your starting LA is only +3, you can buy off one LA at 9th and another at 15th level, so ask if it's possible that you've already bought off the first one.
With 4 racial HD and LA+5, you'll end up with only six class levels at level 15. There are very few classes which don't suck if taken to this point: You'll be low on HP, BAB, saves... But if you can get the above to be accepted, you'll only be starting with an effectice LA of +2, putting you at 9 class levels instead - much better, though still nothing great for spellcasting.

An alternative would be to play a Faerûnian Gargoyle, a Kir-Lanan. Not only are they very flavorful and have an interesting set of racial abilities, they also only sport LA+2!
[Note: This is by FRCS. In Races of Faerûn, the Kir-Lanan have been updated to LA+4 - but this change is silly and severely underpowered. If you don't have RoF, or if your DM is OK with the original version, take it!]
LA+2 should be bought off prior to start of play, giving you a 4 HD Monstrous Humanoid (full BAB) with wings, claws and a negative energy theme going. Add 11 levels of something melee, and you're set. Your ability adjustments are less unbalanced (only +4 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Wis, with +3 NA), and you get to use some minor powers (Ray of Enfeeblement, a slightly weaker Vampiric Grasp). You also get Rebuke Undead, which instantly qualifies you for Divine Feats!
Also, Kir-Lanan get a +4 racial bonus to Hide. Not the same as the Gargoyle's Freeze ability, but still good.
#7
awaken_D_M_golem
Dec 16, 2008 15:44:24 Racial 4 / LA + 5 / Ardent 2 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 7
rejigger the base monster feats, so it'll work. Practised Manifester feat, or better a Psiotheurgist from dragon #349.
You'll start level 15, with 4th level Psionics and Divines, and end with Divine 9s and psi- 7s.
No psi-, just go straight Ur-Priest, with whatever qualifying you need.

Otherwise, you are bringing up the rear.
Not combat enough, not skilled enough, not caster enough.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 winternacht Dec 14, 2008 7:02:44	Hello CO, we are starting a new campain and a friend of mine wants to play a gargoyle... I am aware that this race is not about optimization. He also likes the thought of being somewhat sneaky as there is a nice hide bonus in the class. Further he wants to be a "melee sniper", something like "sneak and destroy" or "hit and run". He doesn't want any barbarian levels! The first thing I thought of was giving him another +1LA with the dark creature template, boosting his hiding ability. Oh yes, starting level is 15, all books exept Ebberon sources and 5N. It's a FR campain. Thanks for any help we might get!
#2 vglcat Dec 14, 2008 9:54:09	shadows good cause hide in plane site but why not just use sniper's cross bow? (120 ft. range)
#3 Vicerious Dec 14, 2008 12:15:42	Sneaky with big melee bursts? Rogue is a great place to start for that. Assuming alignment isn't an issue, taking assassin is a solid and thematically appropriate choice for a prestige class. With the gargoyle's racial hit dice and racial skill list, you'll have to do a little skill point juggling to qualify for assassin as soon as possible, but it shouldn't be too difficult to do; this is especially true with the rogue's generous allotment of skill points per level.
#4 ymuckluck Dec 14, 2008 13:21:22	With the Gargoyle's low intelligence you might want to start with the spell casting prodigy feat. (if you go the assassin route) Scout might be a good class with flyby attack.
#5 winternacht Dec 15, 2008 1:06:31	Thanks for the ideas! Further ones will be taken gratefully.
#6 empirate Dec 15, 2008 5:11:57	The Gargoyle's LA is +5. This has always struck me as a little high, and is probably mostly due to the mix of ability bonuses, flight and DR. However, DR 10/magic will be next to useless in a 15th level campaign, so you should try and talk to the DM about this. Even 10/- wouldn't be overpowered in such a high-level campaign, ask if the DM will let that fly. If not, try to get a decent Gargoyle variant without the DR, and maybe with less ability bonuses, for two less LA. Then, buy off the LA, and try to get the DM to OK you having bought off one LA before play starts. If your starting LA is only +3, you can buy off one LA at 9th and another at 15th level, so ask if it's possible that you've already bought off the first one. With 4 racial HD and LA+5, you'll end up with only six class levels at level 15. There are very few classes which don't suck if taken to this point: You'll be low on HP, BAB, saves... But if you can get the above to be accepted, you'll only be starting with an effectice LA of +2, putting you at 9 class levels instead - much better, though still nothing great for spellcasting. An alternative would be to play a Faerûnian Gargoyle, a Kir-Lanan. Not only are they very flavorful and have an interesting set of racial abilities, they also only sport LA+2! [Note: This is by FRCS. In Races of Faerûn, the Kir-Lanan have been updated to LA+4 - but this change is silly and severely underpowered. If you don't have RoF, or if your DM is OK with the original version, take it!] LA+2 should be bought off prior to start of play, giving you a 4 HD Monstrous Humanoid (full BAB) with wings, claws and a negative energy theme going. Add 11 levels of something melee, and you're set. Your ability adjustments are less unbalanced (only +4 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Wis, with +3 NA), and you get to use some minor powers (Ray of Enfeeblement, a slightly weaker Vampiric Grasp). You also get Rebuke Undead, which instantly qualifies you for Divine Feats! Also, Kir-Lanan get a +4 racial bonus to Hide. Not the same as the Gargoyle's Freeze ability, but still good.
#7 awaken_D_M_golem Dec 16, 2008 15:44:24	Racial 4 / LA + 5 / Ardent 2 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 7 rejigger the base monster feats, so it'll work. Practised Manifester feat, or better a Psiotheurgist from dragon #349. You'll start level 15, with 4th level Psionics and Divines, and end with Divine 9s and psi- 7s. No psi-, just go straight Ur-Priest, with whatever qualifying you need. Otherwise, you are bringing up the rear. Not combat enough, not skilled enough, not caster enough.