Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Jalle Oct 27, 2014 14:32:47	Hello folks.   The deal is that my pretty badass Stalwart+battle sorcerer/Rage mage (homebrew)*/abjurant champion/Eldritch Knight Illumian half minotaur died because of a party ****up so I had to create a new character. Since I had never played a druid I thought that it was time, and since I never really played a summoner, I thought that I would mix the two and make a summoning druid (pretty standard route). The game we are playing is decently optimized, and I knew that my druid probably wouldn't be very strong compared to the other party memebers, but I didn't think I would be as useless as I was (my druid got introduced last session, last friday). Since we are high level I focused on using the Rashemi Elemental Summoning feat, and just summon shittons of elementals and nothing else really, but they proved to be pretty useless. We are on a mission to stop a mad false king summoning demons to the material plane, helping him overrun (and corrupt) the kingdom. our DM isn't the most experienced but he does decent job, but all we fight at the moments are very high CR'ed demons like Balors and weird 3.0 monsters. This is not a problem generally, but my Elementals does nothing. Every enemy have resistance vs all energies (so the elementals' cone of cold, or the Storm elementals' abilities are almost useless), and their saves are through the roof. The 3.0 monsters have like 30 DR/+5 weapons which means that my elementals can’t even deal physical damage (with their already fairly low damage compared to my party damage dealers). Even my companion didn’t do much, since my CL was 16 and greater magic fang therefore doesn’t reach +5 to overcome the DR. My group always jokes about how I always try to optimize like crazy (which was one of the reasons I wanted to go a route I thought would be a bit subpar), but now I ended up with a character that can't contribute at all. I reached level 17 in the end of the session, so at least I from now on can summon an Elemental monolith, but still.... My build looks like this: Race & class:   Human, druid 17 Attributes:          8/8/14/14/22(+4 from levels obviously)/8 [before items] Feats: 1st level: Spell focus: Conjuration, Augment summoning (human), Ashbound (flaw)                                                                                                              3rd level: Gatekeeper initiate                                                                                             6th level: Nature spell                                                                                                          9th level: Companion Spellbond   12th level: Rashemi Elemental Summoning   15th level: Not picked yet (could not decide).                                                                   I talked to my DM about my struggles last game, this evening, he acknowledged them and allowed me to totally rebuild the character, and this is where you guys come in. I am already looking into different routes, but I would love your inputs. What I want is an optimized druid with a lot of presence in battles, whether it is in form of dealing a lot of damage, controlling or whatnot. I don’t really have any preferences. I have played a lot of controlling conjuration specialist wizards, gishes and melee ToB-classes, but never really any divine caster. I just want to play my angry druid (angry at the false king for spreading plague which finally reached and messed with his mountain environment where he has been minding his own business chilling with the Orglashes and Thomils), regardless of style really.   All kind of inputs are welcome. Both basic ideas and complete builds. You are allowed to change everything besides my race (human), and I would like to keep going straight druid (so no Planar Sheppard) to make the role play part not completely silly. “Good morning good party, overnight I attuned myself to another plane which I now emulate around myself. Why don’t you check this **** out and feel the power of time 10 times faster than what you are used to?") We are playing with pretty much every book, with the rule that if we pick from specific campaign settings we must ask beforehand. Frostburn and Unapproachable east also require permission. And finally: I can decide whether I want to use the 3.5 druid companions or pathfinder's. If I pick pathfinder I follow the druid companion table and can pick only pathfinder companions (and I will use the stats printed in that system), and vice versa, so I can’t mix the two rule sets                                                                                                                 *The rage mage variant I used can be found here: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10640.0
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 27, 2014 15:08:30	Honestly, you could do far worse than play a simple single-classed druid. You've probably seen this, but the advice is sound.   Realistically, if you have Natural Spell, a good companion (see MM3's Fleshraker as the "standard CO board recommendation" and compare that to what you could get from Pathfinder; I doubt it would be anywhere near as powerful), and one other turbo-druid feat (of which Rashemi Elemental Summoning is one; others might be Frozen Wild Shape, Dragon Wild Shape, Extend or Quicken Spell (there's other metamagic options but these are good standbys), and... well, really any other feat you've picked!) will meet your criteria of having presence in any fight. It's just a matter of knowing which spells and wild shapes to pick, and that's what the handbook can provide.   My concern is that the "3.0 monsters" are using 3e DR rules instead of a 3.5 conversion. If that's the case, switch to non-summon spells (or, if your foes aren't flying/Freedom of Movement-enabled, thomils - their engulf ability is pretty boss against the right foes and it doesn't care about DR or energy resists), or summon something that also uses 3e DR rules - or talk to the DM about something like 3e Stoneskin, which granted DR 10/+5. (Remember that in both 3e and 3.5, natural attacks bypass DR matching the user's, but while 3e provided an exception for temporary effects like stoneskin, 3.5 did not. Thus, a 3.5 game fighting a monster with DR X/+5 can use a 3e Stoneskin to give a summon or companion or wild shape's natural weapons the ability to bypass DR /+5. It's cheesy, but no less cheesy than mixing DR functions in the first place.)
#3 Krusk Oct 27, 2014 17:31:00	Pathfinder is generally a nerf to druids, unless you feel like crawling through 400 variants and mixing and matching exactly. Its a huge pain in the ass, but it might be better than a normal druid.    I'm thrown by your groups 3.0DR and it seeming like you use 3.5?  Tempest talks to that a bit.    What are the rest of your group playing? Because I came into this thread expecting to say "Human druid 20, natural spell. You are now more powerful than most super optimized builds".    For Items, I'll now pimp tempest's shopping list. https://www.dropbox.com/s/qlao7v0f4znuarr/ShoppingList.pdf?dl=0 and then suggest you go through it and make sure you've got good choices. I assume standard WBL, and will make some recomendations from it.    You mention you took a single flaw last time. Ill limit myself to 1 again, but the general recomendation is to take as many as the DM will let you.    Human druid 17.  H - Spell focus conj F - Augment Summoning 1  - Ashbound 3 - Companion spell bound (This is a decent choice and you are a druid, so most of these don't really matter) 6 - Natural Spell 9 - Gatekeeper Init (This is a decent choice and you are a druid, so most of these don't really matter) 12 - Dragon Wildshape (This is a decent choice and you are a druid, so most of these don't really matter) 15 - MultiAttack Your feat order doesn't really matter because you are level 17. Multiattack is great for most forms. Its like a free +4 to multiple attacks a round.   Your companion should be a dire tiger for damage, or a dire polar bear for crushing people. Its an offense / defense choice. You should be walking around as a dire tortise ensuring you always get a suprise round. You can change into something else during combat is needed. I'd say just mimick your animal for simplicity.  A triceratops isn't a bad idea either.    Your tactics are to cast 1 hr/level buffs on both of you. Magic fang should be overcoming DR/magic in 3.5 so make sure to use it. Other spells by level  I'd just prep entangle and obscuring mist.   Blinding Spittle. I'd prep 2-4 of these. Free no save blindness for a few rounds while they find some water. Throw in an align fang, and a few earthbinds and you're done.   Primal Instinct (dragon magic) gives a nice init boost which is nice. Get that suprise round, then go first. Add on a couple of mass lesser vigors and a couple of stone shapes for utility.   You should always have a freedom of movement for when you accidentally grapple the tarrasq or something. Superior Magic Fang. Throw in some flame strikes and you are good. Low level spells I tend to prep a lot of the same one.   At least one or two animal growths for you and your buddy. You should always have a death ward going. Throw in some walls of thorns for some battlefield control. Then maybe just a few baleful polymorphs for kicks.   Bite of the wereboar on you and the companion to jack your stats sky high. I'd prep an energy immunity for the day. Throw on a superior resistance to help with saves. Maybe a few Greater Dispells for enemy casters. Do a valiant steed once like a week ago and have a unicorn pal. Then just do a few drowns, so you can throw some save or dies if needed.   Prep cry of ysgard once like a week ago. Keep some random dudes around to help with stuff. A use of true seeing (shared), a couple of constricting chains to end anyone not in a Freedom of movement. Maybe a heal or two.   I'd look to stormrage as my standard. You and your companion now fly, and shoot lightning. You don't really care about the lightning, but it is 10d6. Realistically you just have a fly speed and immunity to thrown or projectile ranged attacks. You can also prep some fingers of death, and maybe a reverse gravity or two. (for use while you are flying with special flight) No one would mock you for picking shapechange, but Natures Avatar is pretty sweet too. Its a swift action +10 morale boost to attack/damage, 17d8 temp HP and haste. You can share this with your companion if wildshaped.    Then you swap in summon monster X's as needed. Each fight is  Suprise Round - Buff yourself/companion. Round 1 - Summon - Companion engages Round 2 - Summons appear, and engage. Companion continues fighting. You either engage if melee is needed, or fly above and blast save or dies/buffs.  Round 3+ - See round 2. Resummoning as needed.    Items Monks Belt + Wilding clasp if your form can't wear a belt.  Wisdom book +5 Wisdom item +6  + Wilding Clasp Badass barding for your companion.  Ring of mighty summons - Complete mage - all summons have max HP Ring of the beast - complete champion - all summons are next level higher. You cast summon na 3, and pick from 4 list.  Mantle of the beast - Complete champion - Wildshape out of turtle form as a swift action.   You should have a giant str score, a decent AC, a pretty badass companion, and pretty badass summons.  Also full caster.
#4 Krusk Oct 27, 2014 17:42:15	Good summons by level 6 - Elephants. For giant things to stand in the way. Nothing for combat. Nothing below this for combat either. 7 - T-Rex can swallow whole anything Medium or smaller. Its got +30 grapple, so a decent shot against most melee foes. Don't summon them to fight the melee dude like you are tempted. Summon them near the opposing casters. Triceratops can trample stuff which makes it a pain for anything smaller than huge. Which can really be helpful.  8 -  Elder earth elementals are handy as a wall, but the real winner is 1d3 Trex or triceratops. 9 - Don't waste your 9th level spells on this.
#5 Jalle Oct 27, 2014 18:33:09	Thanks for pointing out the way to overcome the 3.0 DR Tempest! I will talk to my DM about this. Awesome reply Krusk. Many of your points are already in affect actually, but there were some golden tips in between. Thanks a lot! We are only allowed one flaw, which is why I sticked to one. My companion is already a dire tiger, and I wasn’t allowed to be dire tortoise. Maybe I can convince my DM to let me from now on though. Your spell prep. List is a great help. Was struggling a bit figuring out which ones to prep. (mostly because I’ve had a busy week and never got time to studying the books/handbooks for spells). I did however find blinding spittle, knew primal instinct, I have freedom of movement covered (by Vest of Free movement), Sup. Fang as well. Polymorph school is banned so that’s a no-go. Bite of the werebear and and superior resistance are also on my list. Should I just skip Elemental monolith and focus on Natures avatar on me and my buddy? That spell is pretty ****ing badass but I thought that Monolith were more fitting to my concept. The concentration is a bit annoying though.   My equipment looks like this: Head:         6 wis + clasp                                                                                                                                                                        Face:           Third eye: Concentrate + clasp Chest:         Vest of free movement combined with +6 con + clasp                                                                                                                                       Armor:        None Arms:          4 dex + clasp Waist:         Monks belt Feet:            Boots of Big stepping combined with Sandals of the vagabond + clasp Shoulders:   Cloak with +10 spellcraft [will change this for the Mantle of the Beast] Neck:           Hand of Glory (ring of anticipation) + clasp Finger:         Ring of the Beast Finger:         Ring of Spellbattle weapon:       Quaterstaff of Warning+eager (i used to shape into air elemental so carrying it was not an issue). I’m rocking +25 initiative (roll twice) and 29 if I am wild shaped into air elemental (improved initiative), so I usually go first.   Anything I’ve missed besides the mantle? Anything I should swap for something else? And finally: Should I pick Greenbound summoning for my animals? At first my DM disallowed the feat (I didn't really care since I wanted to focus on elementals), but I can probably convince him that it isnt too overpowered at level 17 (compared to low levels). Edit; Oh, and one more thing: One thing that kinda screwed me over, was the DM just targeting me (or AoE the group) right away after I initiated my summoning, resulting is massive concentration checks i wasn't able to beat. Every demon we fought had true seeing running, so invisibility was not an option. How to deal with that?
#6 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 27, 2014 22:44:13	I can't access the main site for some reason. Rapid Spell is a standard action summon for +1 level. And I would strongly suggest a fleshraker companion (especially with Venomfire). Also read that shopping list I wrote; krusk linked it (downloadable in-progress PDF) for other suggestions.
#7 Krusk Oct 29, 2014 15:10:32	25 init pretty much beats everything, so its a shame you can't be a turtle but thats good enough.    From my experience the elementals are generally disappointing. I know it hurts your concept, but they just generally aren't worth it.    Why do you have a +4 dex item? Werebear gives a nonstacking +2 so this seems like a waste of gold. Unless it was found loot?   Greenboung summoning is generally a buff, but if its hard to convince it might not be worth it. And it gets less effective if fighting demons who all have fire powers.   If the DM is targeting you, just have your tiger harass anything that looks like it might target you as action 1 in combat. Alternatively make sure you are a distance away+flying. What is your concentration mod? You should have 20+Gigantic con for decent. Maybe go buy a +30 item?   Lastly,  take conceal spell skill trick from complete scoundrel. You make a sleight of hand check vs their spot when you cast and if they fail they don't know. Its 5 ranks in sleight of hand, which kind of sucks for skill points, but you don't really have any that matter anyway. You could even throw in an item +30 to actually be good at it. 35+Dex is pretty good odds at always winning. Remind the DM about distance penalties to spot checks too (-1 per 10ft, and -5 if distracted like in combat).  heck with penalties, you might get away with a +10 item and be fine.    If you rock a quarterstaff, consider casting spellstaff on it. It works like having a free scroll of something whenever you want. Provided you've got a day of downtime.    Can you post your common wildshape form and common buffs. Along with companion stats + Buffs? I'd like to see your numbers vs typical NPCs.
#8 Slagger_the_Chuul Oct 29, 2014 23:25:23	It's not exactly for combat, but the one druidic summoning option I always like to mention is the humble Thoqqua.  They're not high level or particularly dangerous on their own, being accessible with just summon nature's ally III, but their ability to bore molten holes through solid rock (and pretty much anything weaker than solid rock) is useful is all sorts of ways.   Sadly, druids don't have fly, so taking Imbued Summoning to attack people with flying marine life is out of the question.