Help with Key Build Points. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 SkilgannonTheMagnanimous Feb 07, 2015 4:49:22	So after years away from the table, a mate of mine is going to DM a game for me. We were going to play Epic, but after reviewing Epic Spells and the Monsters, we decided against it. Instead I'm going to start at 1st level and play through to 20th (and who knows, maybe we'll do Epic after that). I will be soloing it for the most part, so I really want to round my Character out and hit a few Key Build points. Whether it is possible to hit all of them, I have no idea, but that's why I'm here. I'm hopin you can help me out. Stats are no problem, I've got 18, 18, 17, 16, 14, and 12 to work with (we've always played with crazy high stats, its just how our group does things I guess). So what I'd like to acheive by 20th level (if possible), is: BAB: 16+
#2 SkilgannonTheMagnanimous Feb 07, 2015 5:53:29	PPS: What is the cheapest way to gain some kind of Regeneration (Ex) ?
#3 Andarious-Rosethorn Feb 07, 2015 7:14:29	OK, for starters you will want to do this in a way that gives up less casting than it does other things... You will also want Wizard because you want skills, Int over Cha in this case. It's one of the many unfortunate ways Sorcerer just isn't as good as Wizard. You will probably want to do this as a Human, but possibly a +Int race would be better in some ways. You will want to build Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 4/- You will be able to use the Ranger spell Hunter's Eye from PHB2 thanks to Advanced Learning. This spell immediately fixes your build requirements for Sneak Attack. You have reached 3d SA naturally, and at this level will be getting another 3d6 from the spell (so 6d6 at level 9, more than a Rogue). This is where we hit a problem... Now, after that if you REALLY care about BAB that much, your options are pretty limited. Something like Abjurant Champion 5, and the rest in something more generic like Spellsword. The downside here? You've had to tube skills at 2+Int from here on out. Do you find skills more important instead? OK then finish out Unseen Seer because it's awesome. From there you have some less than awesome options but could always try to recoup some lost BAB (as above) or get some levels in Arcane Trickster or something. What would I do? I'd say hell with BAB unless you've got some really serious plan. You have access to spells that will make your attacks touch attacks, and your opponents flat-footed. Your attack bonus should be plenty high. Unseen Seer to 10, maybe Abjurant Champion to finish up, not so much for BAB as for having full casting and other desirable features.
#4 StevenO Feb 07, 2015 11:36:52	SkilgannonTheMagnanimous wrote:
(Reply to #4) SkilgannonTheMagnanimous	StevenO wrote:
#6 SkilgannonTheMagnanimous Feb 07, 2015 16:59:06	Man, if only Unseen Seer was a base class, lol. BAB 15, Good Will Save, 6 + INT skills, 8d6 Sneak Attack, and Full Casting. Almost exactly what I'm after :P Looking over a bunch of Prestige Classes from the Complete series, it looks like I can hit every build point except the Skills (and maybe a dice or 2 of Sneak Attack), or I can hit every build point except for BAB (Which I'm about 3 points off of); I still have a bunch of books to go over however.
(Reply to #3) SkilgannonTheMagnanimous	Andarious-Rosethorn wrote:
#8 StevenO Feb 07, 2015 20:05:14	LA doesn't increase anything except which lines you look at when determining appropriate challenges and XP requirements to level. Maximum skill ranks are determined only by actual HD. Actual HD are also the only thing that determine's BAB, base Saves, and when you gain general feats or get ability score increases based on level.
#9 Andarious-Rosethorn Feb 08, 2015 6:00:25	I went 4 Wizard to cut losses. You lose 2 BAB and no caster levels during 4 Wizard levels while meeting the reqs for Unseen Seer. Actually Race you should certainly go Human and take Able Learner now that I think of it, helps your skill situation more than any other choice could.
#10 Stayingpower Feb 08, 2015 18:13:36	You might want a Major Bloodline also. These 3 levels won't cost you class level, but your max rank will increase by 3, as your CL. And you get a free +1 INT.
(Reply to #10) SkilgannonTheMagnanimous	Stayingpower wrote:
#12 Slagger_the_Chuul Feb 09, 2015 21:44:43	SkilgannonTheMagnanimous wrote:
#13 SkilgannonTheMagnanimous Feb 20, 2015 20:10:36	Ok, first up, sorry for the bad layout, I couldn't figure out how to neaten it all up. I've been working on this build for a while now, trying to hit the following key build points: BAB: 16+
#14 Andarious-Rosethorn Feb 20, 2015 20:27:08	Yeah you can use Hunter's Sense whenever NOT in an antimagic area and do a PILE more sneak attack damage. It's worth nothing. Also you've got access to spells that do a LOT of things for you so you can free up skills that way too.
#15 SkilgannonTheMagnanimous Feb 20, 2015 20:33:23	Hunter's Eye + Divination Spell Power 3 + Practiced Spell Caster + Persistant Spell = +8d6 Sneak Attack whenever I'm not in an Antimagic Zone (for a total of 16d6 Sneak Attack).
#16 StevenO Feb 20, 2015 20:52:45	How is Rogue 3 giving you +3 BAB? What are those Changeling substitutions doing there that alter the fundamentals of the class? You shouldn't find any full BAB/full Spellcasting classes that aren't asking you to give up a good bit more before entering them.
(Reply to #16) SkilgannonTheMagnanimous	StevenO wrote:
#18 SkilgannonTheMagnanimous Feb 20, 2015 21:46:48	What spells should I Persist? I was thinking the following would be regualar ones. Golem Strike level 1 (7th level slot) Hunter's Eye level 2 (8th level slot) Vine Strike level 1 (7th level slot) Wraithstrike level 3 (9th level slot) EDIT: Rather than walk around with the "--Strike" spells persisted, I would likely just cast them/persist them when needed, since they are Swift Actions.
#19 NineInchNall Feb 20, 2015 22:58:46	SkilgannonTheMagnanimous wrote:
(Reply to #19) SkilgannonTheMagnanimous	NineInchNall wrote:
#21 NineInchNall Feb 21, 2015 18:44:29	Skill points are made available and spent upon leveling, not static values. They are not dependent upon class level, and the number gained at level X has no effect on the number gained at level Y. Thus they can be modified by simple textual substitution. BAB, however, fuctions differently. It is derived as a product of two factors: class level and a factor that applies to the class. The values in class progression tables are shorthand for this process. It goes on behind the scenes in most material, but it is made explicit in a sidebar in Unearthed Arcana (page 73). Partial Sidebar The progressions of base attack bonuses and base save bonuses in the Player's Handbook increase at a fractional rate, but those fractions are eliminated due to rounding. For single-class characters, this rounding isn't significant, but for multiclass characters, this rounding often results in reduced base attack and base save bonuses. For example, a 1st-level rogue/1st-level wizard has a base attack bonus (BAB) of +0 from each class, resulting in a total BAB of +0. But that's only due to the rounding of each fractional value down to 0 before adding them together—the character actually has BAB +3/4 from her roge level and BAB +1/2 from her wizard level. If the rounding was done after adding together the fractional values, rather than before, the character would have BAB +1 (rounded down from 1-1/4). ...
(Reply to #21) SkilgannonTheMagnanimous	NineInchNall wrote:
#23 Slagger_the_Chuul Feb 21, 2015 20:39:47	SkilgannonTheMagnanimous wrote:
#24 SkilgannonTheMagnanimous Feb 21, 2015 21:02:34	Just noticed that Thug doesn't get Hide, Search or Spot, which are all needed for Unseen Seer.
#25 SkilgannonTheMagnanimous Feb 21, 2015 23:05:03	Rokugan Ninja 3 can be used. Full BAB, 2d6 Sneak Attack, 4+ Int Skill Points.
(Reply to #22) Stayingpower	Show SkilgannonTheMagnanimous wrote:
#27 Stayingpower Feb 23, 2015 10:18:59	For the race, well, it's a template, you can take a look at Primordial Giant in Secrets of Xendrik -4 STR, -2 CON, +4 INT, +4 CHA You need to be a giant for this template, so you could be a Half-giant Primordial giant, with UA LA buyoff -2 STR, -2 DEX, +4 INT, +4 CHA
#28 Slagger_the_Chuul Feb 23, 2015 11:10:35	Stayingpower wrote:
(Reply to #28) Stayingpower	Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
#30 StevenO Feb 23, 2015 12:04:36	I'm suspecting that the typo is actually where that Changeling Rogue substitution should come in. Having a +3 BAB, FORT +1, REF +4, WILL +1 line all points to 4th level instead of 3rd where the line should read BAB +2, FORT +1, WILL +1, REF +3. DEFINITELY a typo but not on the BAB but rather where the substitution level is applied.
#31 Slagger_the_Chuul Feb 23, 2015 13:10:17	Stayingpower wrote:
#32 StevenO Feb 23, 2015 14:31:03	Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
#33 Stayingpower Feb 23, 2015 15:55:30	My totally legit classes was meant for this First one is 3rd ed (savage species), and kind of weird I think (you gain nnothing except saves and evasion/uncanny dodge. I mean, why???) War Hulk is a bit oompf. No BAB increase, but replaced with +2 STR/level. They must be kiding. Or the War Hulk was designed to be a «miniature game only», and they made the class to understand better the miniature game. Yes they are legit class per se, but they are a bit strange IMO (can't find the exact term for strange)
#34 Slagger_the_Chuul Feb 23, 2015 21:30:41	StevenO wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

SkilgannonTheMagnanimous

Feb 07, 2015 4:49:22

So after years away from the table, a mate of mine is going to DM a game for me. We were going to play Epic, but after reviewing Epic Spells and the Monsters, we decided against it. Instead I'm going to start at 1st level and play through to 20th (and who knows, maybe we'll do Epic after that).

I will be soloing it for the most part, so I really want to round my Character out and hit a few Key Build points. Whether it is possible to hit all of them, I have no idea, but that's why I'm here. I'm hopin you can help me out.

Stats are no problem, I've got 18, 18, 17, 16, 14, and 12 to work with (we've always played with crazy high stats, its just how our group does things I guess).

So what I'd like to acheive by 20th level (if possible), is:

BAB: 16+

SkilgannonTheMagnanimous

Feb 07, 2015 5:53:29

PPS: What is the cheapest way to gain some kind of Regeneration (Ex) ?

Andarious-Rosethorn

Feb 07, 2015 7:14:29

OK, for starters you will want to do this in a way that gives up less casting than it does other things... You will also want Wizard because you want skills, Int over Cha in this case. It's one of the many unfortunate ways Sorcerer just isn't as good as Wizard.

You will probably want to do this as a Human, but possibly a +Int race would be better in some ways.

You will want to build Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 4/-

You will be able to use the Ranger spell Hunter's Eye from PHB2 thanks to Advanced Learning. This spell immediately fixes your build requirements for Sneak Attack. You have reached 3d SA naturally, and at this level will be getting another 3d6 from the spell (so 6d6 at level 9, more than a Rogue).

This is where we hit a problem...

Now, after that if you REALLY care about BAB that much, your options are pretty limited. Something like Abjurant Champion 5, and the rest in something more generic like Spellsword. The downside here? You've had to tube skills at 2+Int from here on out.

Do you find skills more important instead? OK then finish out Unseen Seer because it's awesome. From there you have some less than awesome options but could always try to recoup some lost BAB (as above) or get some levels in Arcane Trickster or something.

What would I do?

I'd say hell with BAB unless you've got some really serious plan. You have access to spells that will make your attacks touch attacks, and your opponents flat-footed. Your attack bonus should be plenty high. Unseen Seer to 10, maybe Abjurant Champion to finish up, not so much for BAB as for having full casting and other desirable features.

StevenO

Feb 07, 2015 11:36:52

SkilgannonTheMagnanimous wrote:

(Reply to #4)

SkilgannonTheMagnanimous

StevenO wrote:

SkilgannonTheMagnanimous

Feb 07, 2015 16:59:06

Man, if only Unseen Seer was a base class, lol. BAB 15, Good Will Save, 6 + INT skills, 8d6 Sneak Attack, and Full Casting. Almost exactly what I'm after :P

Looking over a bunch of Prestige Classes from the Complete series, it looks like I can hit every build point except the Skills (and maybe a dice or 2 of Sneak Attack), or I can hit every build point except for BAB (Which I'm about 3 points off of); I still have a bunch of books to go over however.

(Reply to #3)

SkilgannonTheMagnanimous

Andarious-Rosethorn wrote:

StevenO

Feb 07, 2015 20:05:14

LA doesn't increase anything except which lines you look at when determining appropriate challenges and XP requirements to level. Maximum skill ranks are determined only by actual HD. Actual HD are also the only thing that determine's BAB, base Saves, and when you gain general feats or get ability score increases based on level.

Andarious-Rosethorn

Feb 08, 2015 6:00:25

I went 4 Wizard to cut losses. You lose 2 BAB and no caster levels during 4 Wizard levels while meeting the reqs for Unseen Seer. Actually Race you should certainly go Human and take Able Learner now that I think of it, helps your skill situation more than any other choice could.

#10

Stayingpower

Feb 08, 2015 18:13:36

You might want a Major Bloodline also. These 3 levels won't cost you class level, but your max rank will increase by 3, as your CL. And you get a free +1 INT.

(Reply to #10)

SkilgannonTheMagnanimous

Stayingpower wrote:

#12

Slagger_the_Chuul

Feb 09, 2015 21:44:43

SkilgannonTheMagnanimous wrote:

#13

SkilgannonTheMagnanimous

Feb 20, 2015 20:10:36

Ok, first up, sorry for the bad layout, I couldn't figure out how to neaten it all up.

I've been working on this build for a while now, trying to hit the following key build points:

BAB: 16+

#14

Andarious-Rosethorn

Feb 20, 2015 20:27:08

Yeah you can use Hunter's Sense whenever NOT in an antimagic area and do a PILE more sneak attack damage. It's worth nothing. Also you've got access to spells that do a LOT of things for you so you can free up skills that way too.

#15

SkilgannonTheMagnanimous

Feb 20, 2015 20:33:23

Hunter's Eye + Divination Spell Power 3 + Practiced Spell Caster + Persistant Spell = +8d6 Sneak Attack whenever I'm not in an Antimagic Zone (for a total of 16d6 Sneak Attack).

#16

StevenO

Feb 20, 2015 20:52:45

How is Rogue 3 giving you +3 BAB? What are those Changeling substitutions doing there that alter the fundamentals of the class?

You shouldn't find any full BAB/full Spellcasting classes that aren't asking you to give up a good bit more before entering them.

(Reply to #16)

SkilgannonTheMagnanimous

StevenO wrote:

#18

SkilgannonTheMagnanimous

Feb 20, 2015 21:46:48

What spells should I Persist?

I was thinking the following would be regualar ones.

Golem Strike level 1 (7th level slot)
Hunter's Eye level 2 (8th level slot)
Vine Strike level 1 (7th level slot)
Wraithstrike level 3 (9th level slot)

EDIT: Rather than walk around with the "--Strike" spells persisted, I would likely just cast them/persist them when needed, since they are Swift Actions.

#19

NineInchNall

Feb 20, 2015 22:58:46

SkilgannonTheMagnanimous wrote:

(Reply to #19)

SkilgannonTheMagnanimous

NineInchNall wrote:

#21

NineInchNall

Feb 21, 2015 18:44:29

Skill points are made available and spent upon leveling, not static values. They are not dependent upon class level, and the number gained at level X has no effect on the number gained at level Y. Thus they can be modified by simple textual substitution.

BAB, however, fuctions differently. It is derived as a product of two factors: class level and a factor that applies to the class. The values in class progression tables are shorthand for this process. It goes on behind the scenes in most material, but it is made explicit in a sidebar in Unearthed Arcana (page 73).

Partial Sidebar

The progressions of base attack bonuses and base save bonuses in the Player's Handbook increase at a fractional rate, but those fractions are eliminated due to rounding. For single-class characters, this rounding isn't significant, but for multiclass characters, this rounding often results in reduced base attack and base save bonuses.

For example, a 1st-level rogue/1st-level wizard has a base attack bonus (BAB) of +0 from each class, resulting in a total BAB of +0. But that's only due to the rounding of each fractional value down to 0 before adding them together—the character actually has BAB +3/4 from her roge level and BAB +1/2 from her wizard level. If the rounding was done after adding together the fractional values, rather than before, the character would have BAB +1 (rounded down from 1-1/4). ...

(Reply to #21)

SkilgannonTheMagnanimous

NineInchNall wrote:

#23

Slagger_the_Chuul

Feb 21, 2015 20:39:47

SkilgannonTheMagnanimous wrote:

#24

SkilgannonTheMagnanimous

Feb 21, 2015 21:02:34

Just noticed that Thug doesn't get Hide, Search or Spot, which are all needed for Unseen Seer.

#25

SkilgannonTheMagnanimous

Feb 21, 2015 23:05:03

Rokugan Ninja 3 can be used. Full BAB, 2d6 Sneak Attack, 4+ Int Skill Points.

(Reply to #22)

Stayingpower

Show

SkilgannonTheMagnanimous wrote:

#27

Stayingpower

Feb 23, 2015 10:18:59

For the race, well, it's a template, you can take a look at Primordial Giant in Secrets of Xendrik

-4 STR, -2 CON, +4 INT, +4 CHA

You need to be a giant for this template, so you could be a Half-giant Primordial giant, with UA LA buyoff

-2 STR, -2 DEX, +4 INT, +4 CHA

#28

Slagger_the_Chuul

Feb 23, 2015 11:10:35

Stayingpower wrote:

(Reply to #28)

Stayingpower

Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:

#30

StevenO

Feb 23, 2015 12:04:36

I'm suspecting that the typo is actually where that Changeling Rogue substitution should come in. Having a +3 BAB, FORT +1, REF +4, WILL +1 line all points to 4th level instead of 3rd where the line should read BAB +2, FORT +1, WILL +1, REF +3. DEFINITELY a typo but not on the BAB but rather where the substitution level is applied.

#31

Slagger_the_Chuul

Feb 23, 2015 13:10:17

Stayingpower wrote:

#32

StevenO

Feb 23, 2015 14:31:03

Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:

#33

Stayingpower

Feb 23, 2015 15:55:30

My totally legit classes was meant for this

First one is 3rd ed (savage species), and kind of weird I think (you gain nnothing except saves and evasion/uncanny dodge. I mean, why???)

War Hulk is a bit oompf. No BAB increase, but replaced with +2 STR/level. They must be kiding. Or the War Hulk was designed to be a «miniature game only», and they made the class to understand better the miniature game.

Yes they are legit class per se, but they are a bit strange IMO (can't find the exact term for strange)

#34

Slagger_the_Chuul

Feb 23, 2015 21:30:41

StevenO wrote: