Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 casualgatherer Apr 22, 2009 8:55:16	This is my First ToB character, it can't be a crusader. The game will start at level 1 and go till level 20. I would prefer to stay core and ToB, but i can use anything 3.5 sources in this game. 32 point buy Would like to go SS or WB into Bloodstorm Blade, possibly Master Thrower after that? JPM also looks good. So, to sum that all up, i would like reccommendations on playing either a Warblade or a Swordsage, what to take afterwards, what would be a good weapon and what would be good manuveurs.
#2 Balthanon Apr 22, 2009 9:07:42	For your first time with Tome of Battle, I would recommend Warblade due to the recovery mechanic. Warblade 6/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Warblade 10 is easy and should remain strong throughout. Do you have any preferences when it comes fighting styles? Do you want to do two-weapon fighting with the Tigerclaw Maneuvers, single focused strikes with Diamond Mind or Stone Dragon, or maneuver your allies with White Raven? Iron Heart will of necessity be in there for some self-healing and utility maneuvers. I would suggest at least a minor focus on Tiger Claw-- the 1st level stances for that are probably the best in the game at that level when it comes to remaining relevant throughout your entire build. (Blood in the Water fighting with two keen kukri and Bloodclaw Master might be fun for you.)
#3 carnivore Apr 22, 2009 11:28:43	i agree .... but would suggest a variation on Balthanons Build above: Warblade 11/ Master thrower 5/ Bloodstorm Blade 4 to get the Maximum from Thrown Weapons :D
#4 Balthanon Apr 22, 2009 12:48:28	I would only go with 2 levels of Master Thrower-- you do want 9th level maneuvers at the end of the day after all.
#5 carnivore Apr 22, 2009 14:56:44	Non-Initiator classes count as 1/2 initiator levels.... thus Warblade 11/ Bloodstorm Blade 4 ..... has 15 initiator levels Master thrower 5 ... adds 2 1/2 additional Initiator levels.....thus 17 1/2 Initiator levels = 9th lvl manuvers(only 17 Initiator levels needed to get 9th lvl Manuvers) :D
#6 Balthanon Apr 22, 2009 14:58:50	Bloodstorm Blade isn't a martial adept class though-- it doesn't progress your maneuvers at a 1 for 1 rate since it doesn't grant any maneuvers known or readied. So it only counts for two, leaving two levels free.
#7 carnivore Apr 22, 2009 15:08:29	opps ... i was under the impression that the PrC said it progressed Initiator levels .... sorry if that was not the case then i would suggest: Warblade 14/ Master Thrower 3/ Hammer of Moradin 3 lots of Fun with Warhammers :D
#8 dr_rocktopus Apr 22, 2009 15:46:04	actually bloodstorm blade doesn't progress your maneuvers but it does progress your IL.
#9 Balthanon Apr 22, 2009 16:46:00	I don't see that anywhere in the class-- all of the other prestige classes that advance initiator in full have the text for that built into the Maneuvers entry for the class. Without that, there isn't anything specifying that Bloodstorm Blade is a martial adept class (and thus grants 1:1 progression.)
#10 casualgatherer Apr 22, 2009 19:19:44	I might be able to get it houseruled, but Master thrower doesn't seem like it meshes with BB really well. Master thrower in builds on the CharOp boards seems to focus on palm toss and trip shot. If i get BB houseruled to full initiator level, Warblade 5/BB 10/Warblade 5 would be good. Also... Warblade 6/ Bloodclaw Master 5/ Warblade 4/ Master of Nine 5. I like Desert Wind and Shadow Hand lots, so i'll probably take martial study to get one of those for the 6th school. Using two Keen Kukris, this is a really good build, i think. I dunno though. Also, what about a Shadow Hand spiked chain swordsage? Go into Mo9 for thicket of blades...
#11 Balthanon Apr 22, 2009 19:28:22	If you're primarily just interested in Thicket of Blades, you would be better off just picking it up with feats (since you can't multiclass into Crusader). Master of Nine is incredibly feat intensive, though it isn't quite as bad for a Warblade, since most of the required feats are on their bonus feat list. I actually like a combination of Swordsage and Warblade to enter the class, particularly if you're allowed the unarmed Swordsage variant. Bloodclaw Master with two kukri's is nice as well (though I would drop out at 3, not 5)-- so the question is really which one you actually want to focus on-- throwing, two-weapon fighting, or battlefield control?
#12 casualgatherer Apr 22, 2009 19:47:33	Throwing is preferable. Two-weapon fighting is nice, but its an old hat. Tripping is also a good idea, but i prefer throwing more. If possible, i'd like to fit throwing and one other in there as a secondary choice, but throwing is the big proirity. Who doesn't want to throw scythes? Or greatswords or greataxes or mauls or chairs or...
#13 Balthanon Apr 22, 2009 20:15:48	I probably wouldn't add the Master of Nine into a Bloodstorm Blade/Master Thrower build, simply because of the number of prerequisites involved. Bloodclaw Master though actually wouldn't be difficult at all, since two-weapon fighting meshes fairly well with throwing. If you go that route, I would actually recommend a couple levels of Master Thrower-- because 15-20 keen kukri's with a x3 multiplier and no two-weapon fighting penalties are just fun. It is possible to combine tripping and throwing as well if you want to go that route-- I had a build awhile back that wasn't heavy on maneuvers, but worked in tripping on thrown weapons. (It actually focused on throwing a razored shield with some of the shield feats.) For a Warblade that is likely to be Str focused I probably wouldn't use the Trip Shot ability from Master Thrower, however, if your Dex is almost as good that might be a possibility. If you want to put together a quick build based on some of what we've talked about in the thread, we can help you tweak it. If you could get a DM ruling on how Bloodstorm Blade is going to be treated, that would help too.
#14 casualgatherer Apr 22, 2009 21:17:50	Ok, i'll try. Whatever race, though i'd prefer not human. Warblade 1: Point Blank Shot Warblade 3: Precise Shot Warblade 5(b):Imp. Init Warblade 5/ Bloodstorm Blade 1: Power Attack Warblade 5/ Bloodstorm Blade 3(b): TWF Warblade 5/ Bloodstorm Blade 4: Adaptive Style? Warblade 5/ Bloodstorm Blade 4/ Bloodclaw Master 3: Blade Meditation (Tiger Claw)? Warblade 6/ Bloodstorm Blade 4/ Bloodclaw Master 5: Rapid Shot? Warblade 9/ Bloodstorm Blade 4/ Bloodclaw Master 5: ?? Warblade 9/ Bloodstorm Blade 4/ Bloodclaw Master 5(b): ?? Warblade 9/ Bloodstorm Blade 6/ Bloodclaw Master 5(b): ?? And of course, manuveurs. I would like to focus on Iron Heart, Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw, with minor parts of Stone Dragon and White Raven maybe a little bit... In short, i dunno about manuveurs or feats. I'm sure that there are better ones in Complete X or PHB2.
#15 dr_rocktopus Apr 22, 2009 22:32:44	It does mention that the prestiges, unless otherwise specified, tended to advance IL one-per-one in the descript at the start of the PrC list.
#16 casualgatherer Apr 22, 2009 22:54:40	Any ideas on what to fill those last 4 feats with, what Manuveurs to choose and what else i should change?
#17 Balthanon Apr 22, 2009 22:59:12	The 5th level of Bloodclaw Master isn't really worth the base attack bonus loss, I would turn those (4 and 5) into Warblade levels. (Or Master Thrower for Dead Eye Shot to boost the critical multiplier on your primary thrown weapon by 1 and Evasion.). Adaptive Style isn't really necessary for warblades either, so you could probably drop that along with Blade Meditation. Once you get to +11 base attack bonus, I would put Improved Precise Shot into the mix for dealing with concealment and cover. Martial Study (Cloak of Deception) is nice for negating the AC on enemies who rely on high Dexterity and dodge bonuses and is particularly nice for Warblades who can use it regularly. In fact, given that you have so many levels of Bloodstorm Blade in there and are (assuming your DM approves the 1:1 ratio) getting full intiator levels for it I would say many of your higher level feats should be Martial Study or Martial Stance. If you have the feats to spend, you could also look at Ranged Weapon Mastery out of the PHB2-- the extra 20 ft on your range increment and +2 attack/+2 damage are nice. If your DM allows retraining, I would actually pick up Brutal Throw (use Str for thrown weapon attacks) early on as well along with Quick Draw. Later on, you won't need them because of Bloodstorm Blade, but they'll make things easier at low levels so you don't need to put as much into Dex. As soon as you have the chance, I would pick up an item from Magic Item Compendium that grants Far Shot-- it's a very nice feat for thrown weapons. You'll also want Gloves of the Balanced Hand to nab Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. Precise Shot is actually another feat that you can pick up via magic items I believe. For maneuvers, I would suggest something like the following:
#18 dr_rocktopus Apr 22, 2009 23:26:49	Hell of a build, Bal! Mind if I steal it sometime?
#19 Balthanon Apr 22, 2009 23:27:50	Feel free.
#20 casualgatherer Apr 22, 2009 23:34:59	Keep in mind that Great Axes are Tiger Claw weapons, so if i throw them... That was going to be my plan, along with maybe a Kukri in my off hand. From past experience, my DM doesn't like incomplete PrCs. the fact that i won't be finishing Bloodstorm Blade is already going to be a problem, so i will finish BcM. Even if it means losing 2 BAB, that still gives me an 18 at 20, which is plenty fine. Retraining is another dubious spot, which would require too much finagling to get returns, so i'm going to ignore it. New build. Still going to ignore manuveurs for now. Warblade 1: Point Blank Shot Warblade 3: Precise Shot Warblade 5(b):Imp. Init Warblade 5/ Bloodstorm Blade 1: Weapon Focus: X (Warblades can change this, so...) Warblade 5/ Bloodstorm Blade 3(b): TWF Warblade 5/ Bloodstorm Blade 4: Martial Study: (Cloak of Deception) Warblade 5/ Bloodstorm Blade 4/ Bloodclaw Master 3: Weapon Spec.: X (X must be the same at any given time.) Warblade 6/ Bloodstorm Blade 4/ Bloodclaw Master 5: RWM Warblade 7/ Bloodstorm Blade 4/ Bloodclaw Master 5/ Master Thrower 2: Martial Study or Martial Stance Warblade 7/ Bloodstorm Blade 6/ Bloodclaw Master 5/ Master Thrower 2(b): Martial Study or Martial Stance In this order: WB 1-5/BB 1-4/BcM 1-5/MT 2/BB 5 and 6. But, i could also just take 2 levels of fighter and get 2 Martial Study/Stance feats. If i'm reading your maneuver box right, i swap Sapphire Nightmare Blade for Emerald Razor? Then Wolf Fang Strike for Swooping Dragon Strike, etc. Yes? Also, skills. Max Jump, Concentration, at least 8 balance, whatever else. That seems like the only requirements... EDIT: Should i be using Greataxes and Kukris? For Wolf Fang Strike, should i move TWF up to level one, pushing everything else back? I don't really need Imp. Init, its there as filler, mostly. I especially like child of shadows, the stance from Shadow hand. Second Edit: I notice that you used the full 9 warblade levels instead of the 2 master thrower like i thought you did. Would taking out levels 5 and 6 of BB do very much, giving me 9 WB levels, including that extra readied maneuver. If it helps, I don't really really want White Raven nor Stone Dragon as much as the other three. I liked Swordsage because my favourite "schools" are Desert Wind, Shadow Blade and Diamond Mind, based on flavour alone. If you could make it better, you can pull the White Raven Maneuver out all together, along with the really high level slot taken by Ancient Mountain Tombstone thingy.
#21 Balthanon Apr 22, 2009 23:55:00	Greataxe is a two-handed weapon, so you can't use that and a kukri unless you have more than two arms. (I have a thri-kreen bloodclaw master build which actually dual wields great axes like that. ) I would say keep a greataxe in reserve if you need to multiply your damage on a single strike (like Diamond Nightmare Blade, which can generate ridiculous returns.) Otherwise, go with the kukri's in order to rack up critical hits and generate attack and damage bonuses from Blood in the Water. You're correct on your reading of the maneuver box-- swapping maneuvers is probably the most complicated part of building a martial adept. You need to be careful that you're not removing a maneuver that you might need to qualify for a later maneuver. (Or for that matter, that you're using to qualify for the maneuver you're about to select.) When you build in your levels, just make sure that your Bloodclaw Master levels are set up so you take your 1st one at IL 9 (Dancing Mongoose), 3rd at IL 13 (Swooping Dragon), and 5th at IL 15 (Raging Mongoose). You'll probably lose a maneuver or two due to Master Thrower-- I would recommend either Strike of Perfect Clarity or Feral Death Blow. Probably the latter if you want a high level Iron Heart maneuver to use with a thrown weapon. For skills, max out Jump (Tiger Claw) and Concentration (Diamond Mind), with the 8 ranks in Balance. Those are your only real requirements. You don't need Two Weapon Fighting for Wolf Fang Strike, so don't worry about moving the feat up-- once you get TWFing, you don't actually need the maneuver any more. For your race, check out this link: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=10002276
#22 casualgatherer Apr 23, 2009 0:04:15	so, split my Bloodclaw master levels up? currently they are all IL 10-14, but i can push that back one level. Is dropping the Master thrower worth getting an extra maneuver?
#23 Balthanon Apr 23, 2009 0:26:23	Yes, split them up. When you can, you'll want to place the "dead" class levels where you're not getting maneuvers on even initiator levels since you qualify for new levels of maneuvers at odd class levels. (Enough different types of levels in there? *shake*) This includes all Bloodstorm Blade levels w/out bonus feats, 2 and 4 of Bloodclaw Master, and the 2 levels of Master Thrower. Basically, this is just to try and time your maneuvers so you get them as early as possible. Losing the extra maneuvers isn't going to impact you much actually-- you do lose one extra maneuver readied by dropping the 4 warblade levels (2 for BM and 2 for MT), which hurts a little, but you only have 5 or 6 maneuvers ready at any given time regardless. In this case, it just means that you're making a decision on which maneuvers you want at the time of building the character rather than during a session. 90% of the time you're going to be using the same maneuvers anyway, so it doesn't matter much (which is why I suggested dropping Adaptive Style earlier.)
#24 carnivore Apr 23, 2009 4:29:46	quick note ..... your build needs to get to Warblade 6 before you take Weapon Specialization.... since it doesnt qualify earlier... this also pushes back RWM :D
#25 casualgatherer Apr 23, 2009 8:29:55	No, Bloodstorm Blade stacks with Warblade level -2 to determine your fighter level. I was thinking of being a Dwarf, any problems? 32 point buy of... 16 Str 16 Con 16 Dex 10 Int 12 Wis 6 Cha Now, at level 20 my saves will be Fort:+16, Ref:+13, Will:+5 Cha is so low because i want him to be a very annoying, gruff dwarf. It gives me a good roleplaying aspect, which i need as inexperienced as i am at RP. Yes, i know its also stereotypical. I'm a little worried about Battle Clarity, Ardor and Cunning, all of which want me to have an intelligence bonus, but... 4+int Skills are Concentration, Jump, Balance, Tumble. At Bloodclaw Master, i lose Concentration as a Class skill, but i also lose two skill points, so i continue to max Jump and something else. I don't really need balance after level 5.
#26 casualgatherer Apr 24, 2009 0:21:56	No comments at all? or is this just because it dropped to the second page? Anyway, an update: For stats, it'll probably be a 12 Wis and Int, but only a 15 in Dex. worth it?
#27 Balthanon Apr 24, 2009 1:13:48	Dwarf should be fine and your stats are good as well. You can always place a stat from level gains into Dexterity to round it off and your Intelligence can be boosted by an item later on. Depending on whether you end up needing stealth, you might want to take a look at picking up 5 ranks of Hide and Move Silently when you're taking Bloodclaw Master levels-- that can be helpful.
#28 casualgatherer Apr 24, 2009 1:50:46	hmm. I probably shouldn't need it. I've decided to get a 10 in Wisdom, since it was 12 for the +1 to will, which really doesn't matter enough to me. 16 Str, Dex, Con. 12 Int. 10 Wis. 6 Cha. Got any reccomendations for swapping Leading the Attack and Mountain Tombstone Strike? or are those pretty much the best maneuvers ever?
#29 Balthanon Apr 24, 2009 2:02:47	Leading the Attack is fairly nice for a 1st level maneuver-- for solo encounters it can really help other party members to hit. If any other maneuver appeals I would feel free to take it though, you don't need that as a prerequisite for anything. Mountain Tombstone Strike you may not actually have enough maneuvers to take anyway, so you may need to drop it in favor of one of the others I recommended earlier. That was mainly added because it has no prerequisites and 2d6 Con damage will hurt for almost anything.
#30 casualgatherer Apr 24, 2009 2:06:39	I don't mind either, I was just wondering if having no WR or SD was worth it. I'll look over the maneuvers and see if i like any more than that, and if i do, I'll try to add a newer list, based on yours.
#31 casualgatherer Apr 24, 2009 13:04:31	Some of the Devoted Spirit stuff looks really nice, but not what i want. That being said, some of the Desert Wind stuff does too, but it's all blast. Some basic stuff: Adamantine Hurricane looks good, especially against multiple opponents. Dancing Blade Form looks good for the extra 5' reach. I don't really like Iron Heart Surge. Lightning Throw looks good. I dunno how easy it is to line up people in 30' lines, but fighting a horde of mooks, or even just cutting a swath to the BBEG. Strike of Perfect Clarity looks like a Massive Damage attempt. Attacking almost any creature in the DMG (other than a swarm...) with it would deal what, 80+normal damage? It looks good though. Thats pretty much every Iron Heart Maneuver I liked. Nothing in Diamond Mind really excited me, although it looked pretty good in general. I don't think i'll be changing any of those. Some of the Setting Sun looks really good, specially the throws that go like 60'. Shadow Hand looks really good, especially the movement stances, like Dance of The Spider and Shadow Blink. Stone Dragon looks fine, but not nearly as nice as Diamond Mind. 2d6 points of Con is really good though, i'll probably plan on keeping that. Everything else isn't exactly exciting, though it isn't bad either. 20dr/admantine is pretty good too, but only one round. I'm not going to look at Tiger Claw right now, since there are most of the maneuvers already on the list. The White Raven abilities are good, but the only one that really stands out is War Master's Charge. 2 charges are a +75 damage...
#32 Senevri Apr 24, 2009 13:36:46	Some quick comments without referencing ToB or first post: Adamantine Hurricane looks good, especially against multiple opponents. it's all it's good for, specifically. Definitely more attractive for a 2h fighter, esp. comboed with inferno blade. TWF types should just go for Mongoose line. Dancing Blade Form looks good for the extra 5' reach. Especially tasty with a reach weapon I don't really like Iron Heart Surge. Well, yeah... gotta houserule it so it's not overpowered... but it's the best counter for most things nasty one runs into. Lightning Throw looks good. I dunno how easy it is to line up people in 30' lines, but fighting a horde of mooks, or even just cutting a swath to the BBEG. I like it. A Martial Adept should be a mobile beast, anyway. Strike of Perfect Clarity looks like a Massive Damage attempt. Attacking almost any creature in the DMG (other than a swarm...) with it would deal what, 80+normal damage? It looks good though. Yeah, it's nice with massive damage. Otherwise, not so much. Some of the Setting Sun looks really good, specially the throws that go like 60'. I think the record is a few miles for Tornado Throw. It's very interesting and very tricky. Shadow Hand looks really good, especially the movement stances, like Dance of The Spider and Shadow Blink. Best movement stances there, yes. Stone Dragon looks fine, but not nearly as nice as Diamond Mind. 2d6 points of Con is really good though, i'll probably plan on keeping that. Everything else isn't exactly exciting, though it isn't bad either. 20dr/admantine is pretty good too, but only one round. You'll need this or devoted spirit for it's huge chunk of "Ignore damage reduction" strikes. I'm not going to look at Tiger Claw right now, since there are most of the maneuvers already on the list. Tiger Claw is probably my favourite, all in all. Leaping Dragon, Blood in the Water, Mongoose line... but all styles have good stuff. The White Raven abilities are good, but the only one that really stands out is War Master's Charge. 2 charges are a +75 damage... WR is awesome, if you're into the whole "making others shine" stuff, or have a lot of henches or something. Hm. Not really a WR expert myself.
#33 dr_rocktopus Apr 24, 2009 13:40:53	Best movement stances there, yes. That's really a huge deal. One of my close friends plays a supremely cool skill monkey who defeats a lot of traps by attempting to disarm them upside down, while wall-crawling, or any number of tricks like that.
#34 Balthanon Apr 24, 2009 14:40:15	The big issue with Setting Sun, Desert Wind, and Devoted Spirit are that they typically have several maneuver prerequisites on the higher level maneuvers and you're going to be getting them exclusively with feats. Half of the best Shadow Hand maneuvers have absolutely no prerequisites, so they're easy to pick up with a single feat. If you want to pick up one of the 1st three disciplines, you'll need to focus on one school with your feats unless you want to grab some levels of Swordsage or Crusader. (Not a horrible choice if timed right.)
#35 casualgatherer Apr 24, 2009 15:03:28	Unfortunately, White Raven won't shine in a party where everyone else plays a wizard or a bard. I think that the only other main meleer right now is a rogue who has 7 hitpoints. Admittedly, my 15 isn't great, but it isn't bad. I've thought more about my build, and decided that it will finish as a Warblade 9/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Bloodclaw Master 5/Master Thrower 2, in the order of... Warblade 1-5 Bloodstorm Blade 1-4 Bloodclaw Master 1 Warblade 6 Bloodclaw Master 2-5 Warblade 7-11 This gives me some exciting feats, 7 from normal advancement, 2 from Warblade levels (both of which have been houseruled to allow Martial Study/Stance)and one from Bloodstorm Blade, for a total 10. Warblade 1: TWF Warblade 3: Point Blank Shot Warblade 5(b):Imp. Init Warblade 5/ Bloodstorm Blade 1: Weapon Focus: X (Warblades can change this, so...) Warblade 5/ Bloodstorm Blade 3(b): Weapon Spec.: X (as above) Warblade 5/ Bloodstorm Blade 4: Martial Study: (Cloak of Deception) Warblade 6/ Bloodstorm Blade 4/ Bloodclaw Master 2: Martial Stance: (Hearing the Air) Warblade 6/ Bloodstorm Blade 4/ Bloodclaw Master 5: RWM Warblade 9/ Bloodstorm Blade 4/ Bloodclaw Master 5: Martial Study or Martial Stance Warblade 9/ Bloodstorm Blade 4/ Bloodclaw Master 5(b): Martial Study or Martial Stance My plan for maneuvers now.... Maneuvers: W1(1) - /swap 2/ Wolf Fang Strike (Tiger Claw - 1) - /swap 1/ Sapphire Nightmare Blade (Diamond Mind - 1) - /swap 4/ Moment of Perfect Mind (Diamond Mind - 2) [stance] - Blood in the Water (Tiger Claw - 2) W2(2) - /swap 3/ Leading the Attack (White Raven - 1) W3(3) - Disarming Strike (Iron Heart - 1) W4(4) - [swap 1] Emerald Razor (Diamond Mind - 2) [stance] - Punishing Stance (Iron Heart - 2) W5 (5) - Iron Heart Surge (Iron Heart - 3) W5/B4(9) - (Martial Study) Cloak of Deception (Shadow Hand) W5/B4/M1(10) - Dancing Mongoose (Tiger Claw - 3) W6/B4/M1(11) - [swap 2] Swooping Dragon Strike (Tiger Claw - 3) W6/B4/M2(12) [stance] - (Martial Stance) Hearing the Air (Diamond Mind - 3) W6/B4/M3(13) - ?? (I don't have a clue.) W6/B4/M5(15) - Raging Mongoose (Tiger Claw - 4) W7/B4/M5 (16) - Diamond Nightmare Blade (Diamond Mind - 4) W8/B4/M5 (17) - [swap 3] Time Stands Still (Diamond Mind - capstone) W9/B4/M5 (18) - Mountain Tombstone Strike (Stone Dragon - capstone) - (Martial Study) Lightning Throw - (Martial Study) Shadow Blink W10/B4/M5(19) - [swap 4] Feral Death Blow (Tiger Claw - capstone) [stance] - Supreme Blade Parry (Iron Heart - 4) W11/B4/M5(20) - Strike of Perfect Clarity (Iron Heart - captstone) A note: W stands for Warblade, B stands for Bloodstorm Blade and M stands for Bloodclaw Master. The number in brackets is the initiator level. How can i make this better? I could add Master of the Nine, for an insane amount of stuff right near the end of the levels. an extra 2 stances, 5 readied maneuvers and 8 known...
#36 Balthanon Apr 24, 2009 15:47:22	If your DM is allowing Martial Study/Stance as warblade feats I would drop Improved Initiative-- initiative is nice, but not as nice as another stance. Particularly since 5th level is when you get your 3rd level stances. That means you could take the Absolute Steel Stance instead of Punishing Stance and pick up Hunter's Senses with your 4th level stance from Warblade. Much better all around in my opinion. You do currently have Swooping Dragon Strike two levels early as well-- it's a 7th level strike, so you need IL 13. For your 6th level maneuver, I would actually consider Greater Insightful Strike-- it's nice, solid damage that you can count on and it lets you drop Emerald Razor from earlier in the build if you don't like that one. (I typically prefer Mountain Hammer to bypass damage reduction for at 2nd level.)
#37 casualgatherer Apr 24, 2009 17:25:12	I do like Emerald Razor, but my to-hit should be high enough, so Mountain Hammer might be better. I'm happy i didn't try this on my own. Hunter's Sense is a really useless stance, since i'll be gaining scent later and i can't retrain it. Absolute Steel is good though, so i'll probably get that with Martial Stance.
#38 Balthanon Apr 24, 2009 17:42:31	That is true-- I forgot you were taking all 5 levels of Bloodclaw Master. Normally it's one of the most useful of the 1st level stances over the course of the character's career. You could use that stance as another prerequisite though, allowing you more leeway in selecting your feats.
#39 casualgatherer Apr 24, 2009 19:17:25	Could you provide a better progression? Mine seems riddled with problems. Switch around class levels if you want, but I'd prefer to keep the 4 capstones, as well as Dancing/Raging Mongoose and Hearing the Air as a stance. I've decided to move TWF to the first level, to help Wolf Fang Strike, and Point Blank Shot won't help until i get Throw Anything, so i can procrastinate on finishing the prereqs for Bloodstorm Blade. EDIT: Also, what armour/weapon enhancements should i be aiming for? I was planning on getting Mithral Full Plate (+8 armour, +3 dex, med armour. -3 armor check hurts a little bit for jump checks, but not too much.), and +1 Keen Kukri later on. Try to keep it DMG + MiC. What other items will be good? Boots of Striding and Springing?
#40 Balthanon Apr 24, 2009 20:00:17	Try tweaking what I have below to help you arrange it-- this is the text template that I use when I'm building characters. It helps me to keep things in order. I've included a blank template below-- if you copy and paste that into a text file it should be pretty easy to use in the future.
#41 Balthanon Apr 24, 2009 20:17:40	EDIT: Also, what armour/weapon enhancements should i be aiming for? I was planning on getting Mithral Full Plate (+8 armour, +3 dex, med armour. -3 armor check hurts a little bit for jump checks, but not too much.), and +1 Keen Kukri later on. Try to keep it DMG + MiC. What other items will be good? Boots of Striding and Springing? Distance on your primary weapons would probably be useful, and I would look at the manticore set in Magic Item Compendium-- they have a couple of items that grant feats that are useful like Far Shot. You'll definitely want a speed booster as soon as possible to negate the -6 Jump penalty you get with a 20 foot speed. And once you get the 10 foot speed from Bloodclaw Master you should pick up +4 to Jump. For the armor, I would consider Mithril Shirt + Dastana + Chahar-aina if your DM allows Oriental Adventures or the Arms and Equipment Guide (though Chahar-aina is only in OA). That will give you +6 armor, +6 dex, light armor, and 0 armor check. Even if only the dastana are allowed, it's as good as the mithril full plate so long as you have a 16 Dex and a +6 Dexterity item. If you want to stick with strictly DMG + MIC, I would still consider a Mithril Breastplate or Mithril Shirt in place of full plate, since you'll only be down 1 point of AC. Also, I had one other thought on Brutal Throw-- you might want to consider picking that up after all. Thunderous Throw-- the ability that lets you use your Str modifier for thrown weapon attacks-- is a swift action. That means if you use that, you won't be able to use any other boosts in the round-- including Dancing and Raging Mongoose. It depends largely on how your Dex bonus compares to your Str-- if there's only a point or two difference, it might not matter-- if you're gaining 5 or 6 to your attack though you might want to drop Cloak of Deception to pick it up. (And you're also missing Precise Shot for Master Thrower as well now that I look, so you'll need to add that back in. If you still want Cloak of Deception, I would suggest picking up a pair of Shadow Hands from Tome of Battle to add them to your maneuvers known. You can do the same with any other maneuvers that interest you and have few prerequisites like Burning Blade.)
#42 casualgatherer Apr 24, 2009 21:36:42	My Dex and Str mods will probably be equal, or as close to equal as possible, for the duration of this campaign, probably with a slight favour to str early on and a slight favour to dex once BB gets going. I doubt i'll need Brutal Throw. Boots of Striding and Springing would be a +9 to jump after Bloodclaw Master, so i think it will be worth it. distance is also good. Thats quite an in-depth, character sheet style graph. thanks!
#43 Balthanon Apr 24, 2009 21:46:36	I probably have around 150 character builds on my computer-- I needed something to make them fairly standard and easy for me to read at a glance.
#44 casualgatherer Apr 24, 2009 23:35:30	Do you have any reccomendations for my 4th level stance? I was thinking leading the charge, though Punishing Stance might still be good.
#45 Balthanon Apr 25, 2009 0:59:41	I prefer Leading the Charge-- I'm not a big fan of the early strikes and stances that involve sacrificing AC in order to do a little more damage, focus on one opponent, etc... 10+ damage on charge attacks at higher levels will be fairly nice-- particularly if you use Raging Mongoose on the charge.
#46 casualgatherer Apr 25, 2009 10:15:29	Does Leading the Charge include you? You are an ally within 60' who can hear himself, but... For armour, i still think Full plate is the way to go. 3 ACP can be overcome pretty easily, and i won't require a dex increasing item to fill it out. However, if my Max Dex does increase, i think that Mithral Breastplate is the way to go. ACP of 1, +5/+5. I doubt OA or Arms & Equipment will be allowed, since both are 3.0. For weapons, i hope to eventually get +1 Keen Distance Kukris, potentially with Metalline for kicks. I'm so glad that BB gives returning automatically. For the great axe, probably +1 Distance. Scent looks like an interesting pseudo-Blindsight, looking over it. Damn, the PrCs looks really good. Mo9 looks insane.
#47 Senevri Apr 25, 2009 10:37:10	Mo9 has insane prerequisites, too. Usually, you count as your own ally. The PrCs are rather tasty: - Bloodclaws get absolutely NO penalty for TWF - Eternal Blade 2 gets to ignore opponent's DR, not to mention their capstone ability. Remember, you can take immediate actions even during other people's turns... - Bloodstorm Blades - which aren't initiators, really, - get, at builds geared a certain way, to punch everyone within 100ft. into the face. - Ruby Knight Vindicators break action economy, not to mention getting 10/10 caster advancement. - Jade Phoenixes are 'okay' despite losing caster levels, which in itself is kinda impressive. Free Empowers and Quickens aren't too bad. - Shadow Sun Ninjas get to do negative levels per hit. Not per round, per hit. Sure, there are drawbacks, but there are ways around those.
#48 Balthanon Apr 25, 2009 11:29:13	Ruby Knight Vindicator only gets 8/10 casting, not full. Still a great prestige class though. The really fun thing about the prestige classes is that they progress all martial adept classes, so you could pick up a new class at 18th level or above and conceivably have 9th level maneuvers in that class. (Which is what many of the "all 9 9th level maneuver" builds tend to do.)
#49 casualgatherer Apr 29, 2009 9:12:55	Just a small edit, though it has a large effect. Our group is allowed 1 flaw each. should i take one? what should it be used for as a feat?