Sadly, the person who was playing our Warrior is no longer available to play anymore, so I have to fill the role of tank. I would like to do this with a Paladin. Since I'm coming here asking for help, I've made it a point not to come completely empty handed.
My desire for this character is combat survivability while being able to maintain enemy threat. Thankfully, 99.999% of our combat encounters are with evil monsters, so smite will help a lot with that. I envision using shield bashes, trips, bull rushes, and any other means to manipulate the battlefield and avoid attacks and temporarily neutralize enemy attacks, generate attack of opportunities for my allies, and provide protection for the casters. I've worried that spending feats on improved trip and other 'fighter-ish' may prove useless in later levels when the nasties start getting huge and up.
The DM is allowing me to be very liberal with my stats, so the mulitple attribute dependency problem doesn't really pertain to me here.
I'd like to do all of this without doing something TOO over the top. (for example, the diminutive gnome mage-killer would be over the top).
Stats: Really liberal. Probably 18,18,16,16,14,14
Level: 10
Mutliclassing: No EXP Penalty
Magic Items: Within normal limits of a level 10 NPC listed in the DMG
Sources: PHB, DMB, Complete Books, Book of Exalted Deeds. Probably some others, too. If you use anything from sources other than these, please list what books they are
Thanks for the help in advance. I'm going to have my nose burried in the books for the rest of the day, as it's my first paladin and first melee character in some time.
Paladin 2/Martial Focused Transmuter 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 3
Basic start to a gish build. The MAD is doable because of your stats. If you really want to control the battlefield you could go Focused Conjurer and do it with spells as well as weapons.
If you are more combat focused, you could spend basically all of your feats on Battlefield Control stuff. Just an idea, as, pretty much after level 10, spellcasting keeps you relevant.
I don't mind multi-classing, but I don't want to take any class that I otherwise could not take if I wasn't Lawful Good. I'm also familiar with all of those classes except the Martial Focused Transmuter. Looks like I have some homework to do.
If I did chose that route though, where would I go from 11-20?
Magic Items: Within normal limits of a level 10 NPC listed in the DMG
NPC wealth?
NPC wealth?
Crap. No DMG on me at the moment. Its near the back of the DMG, Sample NPCs. It's something like... a +1 magic weapn, +1 magic armor, and 5k gp.
It's pretty frugal.
Focused Specialist is a class option from....PHB2 I think? I'm away from books right now. It's like being a specialist wizard, except you ban an additional school for more spells per day from your chosen school. In this case, Transmutation as it has by far the most useful spells for enhancing yourself for combat.
After level ten I would finish Abjurant Champion. Then I would move into Eldritch Knight for the last however many levels until 20. You could also go into Sacred Excorcist (less BAB, but more Paladin style stuff....you will still end up with over 16 BAB so you don't need to worry). Also, there is a class from one of Five Nations Eberron book called Knight Phantom. It is essentially Eldritch Knight but with a few other cool abilities. You should be able to google the class and find it (Wizards has it posted online as part of a preview for the book).
Edit: Link to Knight Phantom. Requires Still Spell (kind of a meh feat...), but has some cool abilities. The DM may have to waive the campaign specific requirements for hte class, but I really don't see that as an unreasonable thing to ask. Any world could have characters like that.
All of those classes are good with any alignment. One more point is that if your wealth is wayyyy below standard for PCs...you are certainly better with more spellcasting. Melee needs items. Items need money. A gish on the other hand can enhance himself well enough to compensate. (Make sure to look up Greater Mighty Wallop from Races of Dragon if you have a chance...it requires a bludgeoning weapon, but it's a really good spell. Greater Magic Weapon is an obvious choice as well if you are going to be lacking wealth)
If you decide to go the Gish route, I am sure that myself and others would be more than willing to give you some suggestions on feats and spells that will be nice as well.
Crap. No DMG on me at the moment. Its near the back of the DMG, Sample NPCs. It's something like... a +1 magic weapn, +1 magic armor, and 5k gp.
It's pretty frugal.
Yeah... that's ridiculous. PCs are supposed to have WAY more freakin' wealth than NPCs. Otherwise, every time you killed an NPC, you'd double your wealth, which is not the way it works. There is a chart on page 139 in the 3.5 DMG that tells you what approximate value of a PCs equipment is supposed to be based on his level. Most people use that when equipping a character that's created above 1st level. At 10th level, that's 49,000 gp.
There is another chart on page 127 that shows how much typical NPCs should have at each level. A 10th level NPC should normally have 16,000 gp.
So... if your DM is giving you NPC wealth, you might want to talk to him about it. If he won't budge, I'd seriously suggest that everyone plays casters, because limiting wealth in a game heavily favors them, as they are alot less gear dependant. It is basically a stealth nerf to every non-caster in the game, unless he has some set of house-ruled bonuses to make up for it.
Edit: If you don't want to go with a traditional caster, you might consider something like Duskblade 3 (PHB2)/Palladin2/Abjurant Champion 1 (CMage)/Suel Arcanamach 1 (CArc)/Abjurant Champion +4 to start. That will give you a decent set of buffs and other spells from the wiz/sorc list, the ability to channel spells through your weapon into your enemy, charisma to saves and as a casting stat, and spontaneous casting while in armor. In the end, you won't be as powerful as a full caster based gish, but you won't be as crippled by having low wealth as a straight palladin would be, either (or just from being a straight palladin :D ).
for some neat tanking feats go for shield specialization and later shield ward for that sweet shield ac in touch and against being bull rushed tripped grappled and overrun
And if you want to be really tricky....take those two feats and then apply your +9 shield bonus from the Shield spell and Abjurant Champion 5 to your touch AC and all those other things. Shield Ward only specifies a shield bonus, not that you wield an actual Shield : )
Oh and I forgot to mention above, but with BoED allowed, if you play the build I have that has wizard levels, you can prepare Greater Luminous Armor. It gets the benefits of Abjurant Champion levels as opposed to Mage Armor. Granted, you don't want to run around in this all day, BUT against big time foes and hard fights....it's awesome (meant in the slang way and the old fashioned way).
And if you want to be really tricky....take those two feats and then apply your +9 shield bonus from the Shield spell and Abjurant Champion 5 to your touch AC and all those other things. Shield Ward only specifies a shield bonus, not that you wield an actual Shield : )
Oh and I forgot to mention above, but with BoED allowed, if you play the build I have that has wizard levels, you can prepare Greater Luminous Armor. It gets the benefits of Abjurant Champion levels as opposed to Mage Armor. Granted, you don't want to run around in this all day, BUT against big time foes and hard fights....it's awesome (meant in the slang way and the old fashioned way).
So I could go 2H that way
Yeah, it looks like this gish build is going to be the win. Though, I'll have some studying of mine own to do since I mostly play psions, rogues, and the occasional barbarian. Lol I just found out what a gish was today.
The real fun is searching for awesome, long term buffs and choosing what schools of magic you will drop. Evocation for sure....but after that it gets interesting between Necromancy, Illusion, and Enchantment.
paladin2/sorcerer4/spellsword1/abjurant champion5/sacred exorcist8 (taken in that order) is the standard paladin gish. 16 BAB, 18 CL for 9th level spells, turn undead from sacred exorcist for divine feats like divine might.
1-power attack, improved initative
3-knowledge devotion with knowledge (the planes) as the skill taken
6-combat casting
9-arcane strike
12-minor shapeshift
15-divine might
18-divine vigor
Wouldn't sorcerer be a better option for the charisma synergy.
paladin2/sorcerer4/spellsword1/abjurant champion5/sacred exorcist8 (taken in that order) is the standard paladin gish. 16 BAB, 18 CL for 9th level spells, turn undead from sacred exorcist for divine feats like divine might.
1-power attack, improved initative
3-knowledge devotion with knowledge (the planes) as the skill taken
6-combat casting
9-arcane strike
12-minor shapeshift
15-divine might
18-divine vigor
It normally would be, excepting that his stats are so generous it's really not completely necessary. A focused wizard gets him access to just about as many spells/day, an extra martial feat, a better spell progression (spells one level earlier than a sorc of equal level), plus it opens up Knight Phantom and Eldritch Knight if he doesn't want to take Sacred Exorcist. That, and with BoED allowed he can take Greater Luminous Armor as a wizard.
Normally though, the standard progression for a charisma based gish is as you propose. It's still a good build, too.
It normally would be, excepting that his stats are so generous it's really not completely necessary. A focused wizard gets him access to just about as many spells/day, an extra martial feat, a better spell progression (spells one level earlier than a sorc of equal level), plus it opens up Knight Phantom and Eldritch Knight if he doesn't want to take Sacred Exorcist. That, and with BoED allowed he can take Greater Luminous Armor as a wizard.
Normally though, the standard progression for a charisma based gish is as you propose. It's still a good build, too.
That was going to be my exact reply. With such high stats I can afford a high int.
I do have some concerns with this gish build though, Felonius.
1. Starting at level 10, I'm going to suffer from a relatively low BAB since near half of those levels will be caster levels. What's going to give me that ability to hit?
2. Arcane casting and armor wearing do not quite go hand in hand. How will I gain that hefty AC I'm looking for without compromising my ability to cast spells.
3. What schools should I omit? I'm already sure I will prohibit necromancy since it has so many evil and undead controlling spells, which is not very Paladin-like, but the others are tough.
4. Hit points. This might provide some really nice spells, but my hp's are really going to suffer for it. Is trade off worth it for survivability?
Also, the Phantom Knight is a no-go. We don't own the book, and we're not keen on using printed material. EK will have to do. I'm also interested in hearing some full BAB options, or even better ideas for tanks that might not be Paladins (so long as they still aren't over the top. freakin diminutive gnomes *mutters* )
That was going to be my exact reply. With such high stats I can afford a high int.
I do have some concerns with this gish build though, Felonius.
1. Starting at level 10, I'm going to suffer from a relatively low BAB since near half of those levels will be caster levels. What's going to give me that ability to hit?
2. Arcane casting and armor wearing do not quite go hand in hand. How will I gain that hefty AC I'm looking for without compromising my ability to cast spells.
3. What schools should I omit? I'm already sure I will prohibit necromancy since it has so many evil and undead controlling spells, which is not very Paladin-like, but the others are tough.
4. Hit points. This might provide some really nice spells, but my hp's are really going to suffer for it. Is trade off worth it for survivability?
Also, the Phantom Knight is a no-go. We don't own the book, and we're not keen on using printed material. EK will have to do. I'm also interested in hearing some full BAB options, or even better ideas for tanks that might not be Paladins (so long as they still aren't over the top. freakin diminutive gnomes *mutters* )
1. You are looking at +8 BAB vs. +10...it's not really that big of a deal. With your ability scores you should have a decent Str, which will help, you can also buff up with spells pretty well. Wraithstrike is a second level Transmutation spell....just remember that. If you don't ban enchantment the spell Heroism is a nice buff too.
2. From your Spellsword level you have a 10% reduction to ASF. Check out the Twilight enhancement listed under Duskblades in PHB2. Also, Mithril breastplate is pretty good. Alter Self can snag you +6 natural AC if you are willing to walk around as a Troglodyte. Your auto quickened and extended Shield spell gives you +7 AC at level 10, with the last two levels of AbjCh that goes up to +9. Later on you can snag Greater Luminous Armor from the BoED for really big fights...your DM might get mad at you though since it's basically +17 to AC and lasts an hour/level. Even just rocking Greater Mage Armor (+6 AC) and Shield (+7 AC) and a few points of Dex (+2 AC) is 25 AC. Tack on the spell Dragonskin (+4 AC at your CL plus energy resistance), Troglodyte if you do the Alter Self thing (+6 AC) and you are sitting at 35 AC at level 10, which isn't too bad. Haste ups that by one if you have it cast. There are lots of other little tricks too if you want. Mirror Image and Blur/Displacement don't up your AC, but make you harder to hit as well. Always remember that a good miss chance/not being visible are just as good or better than a high AC.
Also, since you can take a two handed weapon, take one with reach and then snag some armor spikes, or burn a feat and go Spiked Chain. This helps keep a lot of things away from you, and then in a level or two when you get Greater Enlarge Person you can really start making people pay for moving towards you or by you. The spell Heroics (Spell Compendium) is great for snagging feats like Combat Reflexes in a battle with lots of people who will provoke AoO's, or whatever feat you think is going to help with upcoming fights.
3. I think Focused Specialist needs to omit 3 schools? Your safest bets are probably Necromancy, Evocation, and then pick either Enchantment or Illusion to drop. Arguments can be made either way on that last one. It's up to you. I would probably drop Enchantment, because I like invisiblity and Greater Mirror Image is a lifesaver.
4. The whole build has 4 levels of bad hit points really. A good constitution should really help. The feat Minor Shapeshift is a nice way to snag temp hp too. Keep in mind that with Pally levels you can technically use wands that have Pally spells in them. You should be able to use wands with cure light wounds and such to heal out of combat if you want to be self-reliant.
5. EK basically nets you two more feats than KP, so it's not that bad of a deal. Look into Sacred Exorcist as Ninjarabbit mentioned and I also mentioned in an earlier post as an option. You will lose one or two BAB, but you gain a good amount of benefits and with all of your buffs, as long as your BAB ends at 16 or above you are ok. The way you go there is up to you.
As for non-paladin builds, at level 10, you simply need to make sure you have spellcasting and are getting better at it from there on out. In later levels no spellcasting = badness. Phaedrus suggested one of my favorites earlier, which is the Suel Arcanamach. It's basically a gish-lite.
One more note, Ninjarabbit's idea is solid. Going Sorc may have its downfalls, but if you don't want to have to worry about what to prepare every day for spells, it's hard to beat that versatility. Just something to ponder.
Here is a different build to throw at you, just one I like:
Illumian w/Aeshkrau sigils
Fighter 2/Martial Focused Transmuter 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 2/Eldritch Knight 6
You lose a feat because you're Illumian, not human, but you gain an effect that takes the place of Practiced Spellcaster in this build, so it's pretty much a draw feat-wise. You also get to base your bonus spells off of Strength, so you don't need to end with an Int above 19. And you get an extra +2 on Strength based checks, which is nice if you want to bull rush or trip people. Of course, you could go Paladin 2 instead of Fighter 2 with your stats, its just a matter of whether or not you want Charisma to saves or two feats.
In fact, add Sacred Exorcist 2 to the build you have now...nothing wrong with getting some turn attempts in there and opening up Divine feats, especially with your stats.
1. You are looking at +8 BAB vs. +10...it's not really that big of a deal. With your ability scores you should have a decent Str, which will help, you can also buff up with spells pretty well. Wraithstrike is a second level Transmutation spell....just remember that. If you don't ban enchantment the spell Heroism is a nice buff too.
2. From your Spellsword level you have a 10% reduction to ASF. Check out the Twilight enhancement listed under Duskblades in PHB2. Also, Mithril breastplate is pretty good. Alter Self can snag you +6 natural AC if you are willing to walk around as a Troglodyte. Your auto quickened and extended Shield spell gives you +7 AC at level 10, with the last two levels of AbjCh that goes up to +9. Later on you can snag Greater Luminous Armor from the BoED for really big fights...your DM might get mad at you though since it's basically +17 to AC and lasts an hour/level. Even just rocking Greater Mage Armor (+6 AC) and Shield (+7 AC) and a few points of Dex (+2 AC) is 25 AC. Tack on the spell Dragonskin (+4 AC at your CL plus energy resistance), Troglodyte if you do the Alter Self thing (+6 AC) and you are sitting at 35 AC at level 10, which isn't too bad. Haste ups that by one if you have it cast. There are lots of other little tricks too if you want. Mirror Image and Blur/Displacement don't up your AC, but make you harder to hit as well. Always remember that a good miss chance/not being visible are just as good or better than a high AC.
Also, since you can take a two handed weapon, take one with reach and then snag some armor spikes, or burn a feat and go Spiked Chain. This helps keep a lot of things away from you, and then in a level or two when you get Greater Enlarge Person you can really start making people pay for moving towards you or by you. The spell Heroics (Spell Compendium) is great for snagging feats like Combat Reflexes in a battle with lots of people who will provoke AoO's, or whatever feat you think is going to help with upcoming fights.
3. I think Focused Specialist needs to omit 3 schools? Your safest bets are probably Necromancy, Evocation, and then pick either Enchantment or Illusion to drop. Arguments can be made either way on that last one. It's up to you. I would probably drop Enchantment, because I like invisiblity and Greater Mirror Image is a lifesaver.
4. The whole build has 4 levels of bad hit points really. A good constitution should really help. The feat Minor Shapeshift is a nice way to snag temp hp too. Keep in mind that with Pally levels you can technically use wands that have Pally spells in them. You should be able to use wands with cure light wounds and such to heal out of combat if you want to be self-reliant.
5. EK basically nets you two more feats than KP, so it's not that bad of a deal. Look into Sacred Exorcist as Ninjarabbit mentioned and I also mentioned in an earlier post as an option. You will lose one or two BAB, but you gain a good amount of benefits and with all of your buffs, as long as your BAB ends at 16 or above you are ok. The way you go there is up to you.
As for non-paladin builds, at level 10, you simply need to make sure you have spellcasting and are getting better at it from there on out. In later levels no spellcasting = badness. Phaedrus suggested one of my favorites earlier, which is the Suel Arcanamach. It's basically a gish-lite.
One more note, Ninjarabbit's idea is solid. Going Sorc may have its downfalls, but if you don't want to have to worry about what to prepare every day for spells, it's hard to beat that versatility. Just something to ponder.
Here is a different build to throw at you, just one I like:
Illumian w/Aeshkrau sigils
Fighter 2/Martial Focused Transmuter 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 2/Eldritch Knight 6
You lose a feat because you're Illumian, not human, but you gain an effect that takes the place of Practiced Spellcaster in this build, so it's pretty much a draw feat-wise. You also get to base your bonus spells off of Strength, so you don't need to end with an Int above 19. And you get an extra +2 on Strength based checks, which is nice if you want to bull rush or trip people. Of course, you could go Paladin 2 instead of Fighter 2 with your stats, its just a matter of whether or not you want Charisma to saves or two feats.
In fact, add Sacred Exorcist 2 to the build you have now...nothing wrong with getting some turn attempts in there and opening up Divine feats, especially with your stats.
Illusion might have to go. Being invisible and 'hiding' wouldn't work with this characters personality, but mirror image would be so nice. I don't have a spell compendium around, so I'm assuming Dragonskin is either an Armor bonus or Natural Armor bonus and was wondering which exactly it was and what it will/won't stack with.
Should I invest in AC feats (dodge, etc.) or work on Divine Feats?
Sad I am, that the DM will not allow ToB
Ouch...that's the only thing that keeps melee relevant without spellcasting.
Spoilered here:
Show
So, I was thinking of an idea...who ever uses the Dwarven Urgrosh....I do! The trick is, not to use it as a double weapon, but to wield each side individually as if you were wielding 2 twohanded weapons. That way, you get all the benefits of 2handed fighting (1.5x str, 2:1 PA) but you are still using an awesome ass weapon and qualify for Flurry of Strikes and Slashing Fury.
Dwarven Urgrosh Flurry Fury!
Dwarf 28 PB Str 16, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6
Final stats with items Str 26 (30 rage), Dex 10, Con 24, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6
1 Ranger1 Track, Endurance Favored Enemy: Arcanists (get 4 ranks in prereq skills, 2 ranks Kn:Relig xclass)
2 Fighter1 Power Attack (5th rank in Climb + Jump)
3 Fighter2 Hold the Line, Weapon Focus: Urgrosh (5th rank Kn: Dung xclass)
4 Barbarian1 Spirit Lion Totem (5th rank in Survival class + 3 Craft:Weapon)
5 Barbarian2 Uncanny Dodge (3rd + 4th rank Kn:Relig xclass)
6 Deepwarden1 Track again... True Believer (Kn:Arc 3 ranks)
7 Deepwarden2 Stonewarden (Kn:Arc 4th rank xclass Spellcraft 2 ranks xclass)
8 Pious Templar1 Mettle (Spellcraft 3rd rank xclass)
9 Pious Templar2 Improved Init (Spellcraft 4th rank xclass)
10 Pious Templar3 Weapon Spec:Urgrosh
11 Exotic Weapon Master1 Flurry of Strikes Trick
12 Exotic Weapon Master2 Uncanny Blow Trick Leap Attack
13 Pious Templar4 Melee Weapon Mastery: Slashing
14 Occult Slayer1
15 Occult Slayer2 Slashing Fury
16 Occult Slayer3
17 Occult Slayer4
18 Occult Slayer5 Battle Blessing
19 Pious Templar5
20 Pious Templar6
So, I was thinking of an idea...who ever uses the Dwarven Urgrosh....I do! The trick is, not to use it as a double weapon, but to wield each side individually as if you were wielding 2 twohanded weapons. That way, you get all the benefits of 2handed fighting (1.5x str, 2:1 PA) but you are still using an awesome ass weapon and qualify for Flurry of Strikes and Slashing Fury.
Dwarven Urgrosh Flurry Fury!
Dwarf 28 PB Str 16, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6
Final stats with items Str 26 (30 rage), Dex 10, Con 24, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6
1 Ranger1 Track, Endurance Favored Enemy: Arcanists (get 4 ranks in prereq skills, 2 ranks Kn:Relig xclass)
2 Fighter1 Power Attack (5th rank in Climb + Jump)
3 Fighter2 Hold the Line, Weapon Focus: Urgrosh (5th rank Kn: Dung xclass)
4 Barbarian1 Spirit Lion Totem (5th rank in Survival class + 3 Craft:Weapon)
5 Barbarian2 Uncanny Dodge (3rd + 4th rank Kn:Relig xclass)
6 Deepwarden1 Track again... True Believer (Kn:Arc 3 ranks)
7 Deepwarden2 Stonewarden (Kn:Arc 4th rank xclass Spellcraft 2 ranks xclass)
8 Pious Templar1 Mettle (Spellcraft 3rd rank xclass)
9 Pious Templar2 Improved Init (Spellcraft 4th rank xclass)
10 Pious Templar3 Weapon Spec:Urgrosh
11 Exotic Weapon Master1 Flurry of Strikes Trick
12 Exotic Weapon Master2 Uncanny Blow Trick Leap Attack
13 Pious Templar4 Melee Weapon Mastery: Slashing
14 Occult Slayer1
15 Occult Slayer2 Slashing Fury
16 Occult Slayer3
17 Occult Slayer4
18 Occult Slayer5 Battle Blessing
19 Pious Templar5
20 Pious Templar6
Ouch...that's the only thing that keeps melee relevant without spellcasting.
Yep, and even worse, the DM just told me that the first FIVE levels of my level 10 character must be the same class.
So there goes this entire idea. >_>
So I guess the new question is, how do I do this with that stipulation? I'm considering straight druid.... but meh. Just frustrated now.
The first level of Abjurant Champion progresses Duskblade casting, the next four progress your Suel Arcanamach casting. After that it all progresses SuArch.
Last level could be one more Duskblade to get more spells to burn (see next comment). Or you could go with Spellsword 2 to get a bonus feat. Or something else if you want.
Get the Versatile Spellcaster feat, power your Arcanamach spells with your Duskblade spells. Later in the build you may want to take Practiced Spellcaster. Either that or start as Illumian with Aeshkrau...I like the second option better.
Use a big, two handed bludgeoning weapon (I think there are even some with reach, though they could be exotic) throw down Greater Mighty Wallop and such.
Dragonslayer basically trades a feat for Immunity to Fear. Not bad, and it makes it so that you can go Illumian and not have to take Practiced Spellcaster in order to get CL 20.
What are you thinkin about now that you know you have to take 5 levels to start?
Edit: Credit goes to Phaedrus in large part for a bunch of the ideas in this build.
Duskblade 5/Abjurant Champion 1/Suel Arcanamach 1/Abjurant Champion +4/Suel Arcanamach +3/Spellsword 1/Dragonslayer 1/Dragon Disciple 4/XXXX 1
The first level of Abjurant Champion progresses Duskblade casting, the next four progress your Suel Arcanamach casting. After that it all progresses SuArch.
Last level could be one more Duskblade to get more spells to burn (see next comment). Or you could go with Spellsword 2 to get a bonus feat. Or something else if you want.
Get the Versatile Spellcaster feat, power your Arcanamach spells with your Duskblade spells. Later in the build you may want to take Practiced Spellcaster. Either that or start as Illumian with Aeshkrau...I like the second option better.
Use a big, two handed bludgeoning weapon (I think there are even some with reach, though they could be exotic) throw down Greater Mighty Wallop and such.
Dragonslayer basically trades a feat for Immunity to Fear. Not bad, and it makes it so that you can go Illumian and not have to take Practiced Spellcaster in order to get CL 20.
What are you thinkin about now that you know you have to take 5 levels to start?
Edit: Credit goes to Phaedrus in large part for a bunch of the ideas in this build.
That's a good question. I don't like asking things without having something in my hands, so I'm going to do some more lurking and book reading and dig up some ideas. Is the Illumian in the Magic Incarnum? I know that it is one of the books the DM has banned. So I'll probably spend a few hours reading and then come back here.
Another idea is duskblade5/wizard2/spellsword1/ultimatemagus6/abjurantchampion5/dragonslayer1
Duskblade - PHB2
Suel Arcanamach - C Arcane
Dragonslayer - Draconomicon
Dragon Disciple - DMG
Spellsword - C Warrior
Abjurant Champion - C Mage
Illumian - Races of Destiny
Practiced Spellcaster - C Arcane
Versatile Spellcaster - Races of Dragon
Greater Mighty Wallop - Races of Dragon
I think that's it for now...I'm sure you know most of them, but for anyone lurking or whatnot I figured I would list all of it.
I've never played a druii before, either, but I've heard lots of good things about their tanking abilities.
After nagging though, he did give me the standard 49,000gp
Prestige Paladin gives you paladin spell access, but doesn't limit your Cleric casting progression. Ordained champion gives you smiting and some extra feats. You have a good BAB, you wear lots of armor, you heal, you smite, you turn undead.
If you take the Battle Casting feat from Complete Champion, all your Paladin spells are quickened. Including Divine Favor.
After that, it's just a question of how much more cheese you want in your build.
Well, at this point, due to the frustration the DM is putting on me, I'm considering just going 10druid or 10priest and staying as close to core as possible (complete books and BoED included).
I've never played a druii before, either, but I've heard lots of good things about their tanking abilities.
After nagging though, he did give me the standard 49,000gp
Druids are good. They can do whatever the party needs. As long as you take Natural Spell at level 6 you will basically be fine. It is a waste of your really good stats though.
If you have Standard wealth you could easily do a Gish build with a twilight mithril breast plate.
Frustration is understandable though. Does the DM just disallow on a case by case basis or will he give you a complete list ahead of time so that you can actually make a character?
Druids are good. They can do whatever the party needs. As long as you take Natural Spell at level 6 you will basically be fine. It is a waste of your really good stats though.
If you have Standard wealth you could easily do a Gish build with a twilight mithril breast plate.
Frustration is understandable though. Does the DM just disallow on a case by case basis or will he give you a complete list ahead of time so that you can actually make a character?
Basically, he bans everything he hasn't read yet, which is a lot, and then he bans things on a case by case basis if he thinks its too powerful. So...I'm wondering how he's going to take to a druid since it's basically a complete can of whoop ass.
Edit: The party is very large. Seven PCs. I'm leaning in towards the druid more since I'd be able to cover all the bases. Tanking, Damage, Healing, Summoning. I'll sleep on it though, and ask the DM if I can get the twilight mithril breast place.
You should get your group to each chip in and get him the "Races of X" series for Christmas. They are really nice books in terms of adding a lot of cool options without being setting specific. :P
We have them. We have pretty much everything. Just waiting on him to read them.