Help with Rogue Warlock - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

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#1 JaredSyn70 May 30, 2012 10:45:43	This what I have any improvement suggestions are appreciated. Race Whisper Gnome: Rogue 4 BAB: +3 Fort: +1, Ref: +4, Will: +1 Sneak Attack 2D6, Evasion, Trap Sense +1, Uncanny Dodge, 84 Sill Points (Skills: Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Jump, Knowledge Local, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device, Use Rope) Warlock 7 (2 AT) Eldritch blast 5D6 5 Invocations, Detect Magic, DR 2/Cold Iron, Deceive Item, Fiendish Resilience 1 Fort: +2, Ref: +2, Will: +5 BAB: +5 42 Skill Points (Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Disguise, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge Arcana, Knowledge the Planes, Knowledge Religion, Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device) Ninja 3 Ki Power, Trapfinding, Sudden Strike 2D6, Poison Use BAB: +2 Fort: +1, Ref: +3, Will: +1 Wisdom to AC Unarmored. 30 Skill Points (Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble) Arcane Trickster 2 (Required Skills Decipher Script 7, Disable Device 7, Escape Artist 7, Knowledge Arcane 4) Ranged Legerdemain 1x day, Sneak Attack +1D6, BAB: +1, Fort: +0, Ref: +3, Will: +3 16 Skill Points (Skills: Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Hide, Jump, Knowledge, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Profession, Sense Motive, Search, Sleight of Hand, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope Stats: Str: 11 Dex: 20 +2 Levels Con: 18 Int: 18 Wis: 16 +2 levels Cha:14 BAB: +11/+6 Fort: +8 Ref: 18 Will: 14 Skills: Total 172 (Below scores to not include any bonuses) Appraise 5 Balance 5 Bluff 10 Climb 5 Concentration 5 Decipher Script 7 Disable Device 14 Disguise 8 Escape Artist 7 Gather Information 5 Hide 12 Jump 4 Knowledge Arcana 4 Listen 10 Move Silently 12 Open Lock 8 Sense Motive 6 Sleight of Hand 12 Spot 10 Tumble 8 Use Magic Device 15 Invocations Least: Baleful Utterance, Entropic Warding, Spiderwalk Lesser: Fell Flight, Flee the Scene, (Walk Unseen( From Magic Codex) Feats: Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Improved Critical Eldritch Blast, Quick Draw, Extra Silence, One more feat?
#2 JaredSyn70 May 30, 2012 18:12:26	Is it me second post for similar build and no responses to either? No one has any build suggestions?
#3 Krusk May 30, 2012 18:48:39	What is your goal, and what books can you use? Any house rules we should know? Its not paticularly optimized. I'd do something more like rogue 3/warlock 7/Arcane Trickster 6. You will get the same sneak attack, but better casting. Do you want to focus on sneak attack, warlock casting or whats the goal? Maybe describe an ideal combat for your PC? How are you getting around the mage hand requirement? If your stats are point buy, I'd drop Int a bunch. 14 or so should be the most you need. I'd switch it with strength if you rolled stats. As a warlock, and paticulalrly with the invocations you have chosen, you don't need high save DCs. Drop quick draw and improved crit. Both aren't good in general and won't paticulalrly help you. Quick draw can be done as part of a move action by anyone with +1 BAB anyway, and improved crit doesn't pay off fast enough. I assume you are planing to eldritch blast people while hidden for sneak attack+EB damage? If so, reconsider. The reason sneak attack is any good is that you can do many a round. Eldritch blast specifically lets you only do one attack. If you agree to totally abandon the concept, I'd go with warlock into hellfire warlock or try to work on some form of glaivelock build. They are really the only two that are viable. Alternatively, consider being doing rogue 3/wizard 7/arcane trickster 6 (eventually 10). It will give almost full wizard casting which is great, and some decent sneak attack damage too if you decide to blast. Either of those suggestions will be way more powerful, but really we need an idea of what you would like to do, before we can help optimize. This was me throwing out random ideas that would improve various different aspects. **Also what items do you have/will you have? at level 16 this is a very big part of your character
#4 StevenO May 30, 2012 19:05:14	When it comes to a Rogue/Warlock combo I like looking at an adopted/updated Arcane Trickster class. It may not be the most efficient thing in the world but SA and EB damage would both go up if you could legally enter the class.
#5 deoxhydroxinate May 30, 2012 21:02:42	If allowed, Hellfire Warlock (and if feeling really cheesy - Uncanny Trickster) and Binder could be a fun add on to the rogue. Also, entering Arcane Trickster shouldn't be too difficult - you can qualify being able to cast a 3rd level arcane spell or higher (through warlock), the trick would involve adding Mage Hand. I know there are items that can grant it to you, but that is arguable to allow entry (or later progression for that matter).
#6 JaredSyn70 May 30, 2012 21:14:14	I qualify for Arcane Trickster via the Whisper Gnome Mage Hand ability. As far as books go all wizards books are allowed. I was aiming for a very stealthy character with a variety of movement options allowing him to escape if necessary as well as sneak up on people in a variety of ways. I was not necessarily going for a blaster. I like the invocations that are all day effects for the rogue type character. I think sneak attacking is this characters bread and butter, the ninja gives some flavor and allows Wis to AC alleviating the need for actual armor. Oh regarding items I have a pretty high starting gold for this character as the others are pretty magic heavy so any and all suggestions are possible as far as items go. Any furhter suggestions are very welcome. Thanks. I hope this clarifies things a bit.
#7 Krusk May 31, 2012 12:28:33	It is very hard to get both of these things I like the invocations that are all day effects for the rogue type character. I think sneak attacking is this characters bread and butter, . I'd recomend going warlock 20 or warlock/full invoking prestige class and ditching the sneak attack. 5d6 1/round isn't really enough to matter. A warlock on his own can be a great stealthy infiltrator thanks to his invocations, but the rogue levels are going to hurt it. Ninja. Think of their "Use wis to add to AC instead of armor" as a penalty instead of a bonus. Flip it around and say "You can't use armor, but instead you can add your wis to AC". End game a mithril breastplate+5 is giving +10AC, is light armor, and can be enchanted. You'd need a 30 Wisdom to be the same here, and you can't enchant it. Will you have a 30 wisdom? Even at your current level, you have +3 to AC from wisdom. Go buy a non-magic chain shirt and you are better off. Realistically, you can have the +5 mithril breastplate without being near a majority of your money.
#8 JaredSyn70 May 31, 2012 12:54:48	Well can you reccomend a good build for me then if that is the case? I want a stealthy character that can deal some serious damage.
#9 deoxhydroxinate May 31, 2012 13:48:05	Realistically, what type of character are you leaning more towards? Warlock or Rogue? Both are fine in their own right, and both may be solid damage dealers and stealthy. Warlock does it with invocations, rogue with skills. The warlock route is really up to you what invocations to pick, though you could be flying (with perfect maneuverability), invisible, shooting lasers (and honestly, I've found Warlock to be a much more fun class to play than Rogue). As for builds, Warlock 20 is perfectly acceptable, though there are some interesting PrCs to throw into the mix: Chameleon - Free floating feat which can be changed as needed. Couple this with the Warlock's UMD class skill, ability to take 10 and the ability to emulate spells and you can pretty much craft any item your heart desires. Hellfire Warlock - Only 3 levels long and you get +6d6 extra damage added on to your eldritch blast. Some argue that this PrC is an attempt to "fix" warlocks and bring their damage a bit back up to snuff. The only downside here is that each eldritch blast, if using hellfire with it, will drop your Constitution by 1 point (per use). There are many ways to circumvent it: lesser restoration (you could easily craft them), a 1 level dip into Binder (and bind Naberius), or others. Uncanny Trickster - Not for the lactose intolerant as you use it's "+1 level of existing class features" to apply to Hellfire Warlock. So, for 6 levels (3 in both Hellfire Warlock and Uncanny Trickster) you would get an additional +10d6 Hellfire (6d6 HW + 4d6 UT) damage applied to your eldritch blast. Mindbender - Honestly, I try to work in this PrC in almost every arcane casting class for just the 1st level dip. 100ft telepathy allows you to nab the feat Mindsight. 'Nuff said. Those are just a few off the top of my head pertaining to warlock.
#10 JaredSyn70 May 31, 2012 15:40:14	OK can you make a few suggestions then for a straight warlock? I plan to take able learner at first level to make the rogue cross class skills only cost a point, so I can take them for the flavor I am after. I plan to take the following invocations. Least: Baleful Utterance, Entropic Warding, Spiderwalk. (Codex Advocare See the Unseen) Lesser: Fell Flight, Flee the Scene, Walk Unseen Greater: Chilling Tentacles, Retributive Invisibility, Vitriolic Blast Dark: Path of Shadow Any other suggestions feat wise. I am thinking Able Learner, Battle Caster, Improved Initiative. Flyby Attack, Great Flyby Attack, one more ??? or any you think I shoudl change?
#11 JaredSyn70 Jun 01, 2012 5:25:11	OK I reworked and now have Rogue 3 Warlock 7 Arcane Trickster 6. I have a nice selection of skills, and a decent attack bonus and very nice sneak attack with items 8D6. I have the invocations I wanted as well. It should be a very well playable character. My only tough point was feats. I took Improved initiative +17, Extra Silence 7x day, Silencnig strike, flyby attack, Blooded +2 Init, and close quarters fighting, just in case someone tries to grapple me. Items hat of disguise Chausable fell power Greater Codex Advocare Mithril Breastplate +4 Rogues Vest Bracers of the hunter Casting gloves Boots elvenkind Rign freedom of movement and X-Ray vision Dagger of liefkeeping and +3 short sword Deadly precision, Shadowstrike
#12 Krusk Jun 01, 2012 9:48:03	www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID... is the warlock handbook you might get some benefits from. Its not 100% complete though. For your build. Why no stat boosting items? They are relatively cheap, and super handy/important. Don't take close quarters fighting. Consider scribe scroll? Being able to make a scroll of any spell in the game is pretty nice and will really up your versatility. I just noticed you have a freedom of movement ring. You are immune to grapples, don't take close quarters fighting.
#13 JaredSyn70 Jun 01, 2012 12:18:31	I missed an item called Belt of magnificence. Which boosts stats. I will swap out close quarters fighting I did not realize freedom of movement prevented grapple. Scribe scroll sounds good. That way I can make items and scrolls. Quite nice. Thanks for the help. Anyone notice any other issues with build?
#14 deoxhydroxinate Jun 01, 2012 12:33:06	Quicken Spell Like Ability is a solid feat choice. Scribe Scroll and other item creation feats are usually nice for Warlock. Belt of Battle is fantastic, though I know a few DMs that don't always allow them so I'd check to be sure.
#15 JaredSyn70 Jun 01, 2012 12:46:59	Warlocks don't need craft feats correct? Doesn't one of their abilities grant them the ability to create with a UMD check or did I misread it?
#16 JaredSyn70 Jun 01, 2012 13:40:51	OK a question if I Eldeitch blast someone from behind do I get to add sneak attack damage as well. I would think yes.
#17 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 01, 2012 15:10:24	Warlocks don't need craft feats correct? Doesn't one of their abilities grant them the ability to create with a UMD check or did I misread it? At level 12, they get the ability to use a UMD check to replicate the spells even though they can't cast them. They still need the item creation feat. This is one of the reasons why Chameleon is a popular Warlock PrC - they get a floating feat which can be a crafting feat whenever you want it to be and a combat feat otherwise. OK a question if I Eldeitch blast someone from behind do I get to add sneak attack damage as well. I would think yes. It isn't 'from behind' - it's whenever you use the attack against a target denied their Dexterity bonus to AC or if you're flanking the target when you attack it. But the key here is "attack" - Eldritch Blast uses an attack roll, so it gets the bonus if it hits. ...Interesting. I never noticed this before, but it seems like you can wield a weapon and still use Eldritch Blast as long as you have a hand free, and you'd be doing this without TWF penalties. Thus you can actually threaten the target, and actually flank the target, using your weapon, and still blast them for sneak attack damage. This is going to be tricky to do in melee, since using the blast provokes attacks of opportunity, but it appears to be workable.
#18 JaredSyn70 Jun 01, 2012 15:10:52	If i choose Quicken spell like ability, I assume I coudl use that for Eldritch blast and be able to use it each round as well as attack?
#19 JaredSyn70 Jun 01, 2012 15:14:20	Thanks Tempest from behind was a reference to dexless. So the 12th level ability without a craft feat is useless basically.
#20 draco1119 Jun 01, 2012 16:32:37	If i choose Quicken spell like ability, I assume I coudl use that for Eldritch blast and be able to use it each round as well as attack? Except that then you would be taking TWF penalties. What Tempest was saying is to just hold the weapon - that lets you threaten adjacent squares, giving you flanking and Attacks of Opportunity. Then you hit them with the Eldritch Blast, which is your true damage-dealer. I forget where to find Quicken SLA, but I think it works to make your Blasts swift actions, which, like Quickened spells, wouldn't provoke AoO. I could be wrong about that, though. Thanks Tempest from behind was a reference to dexless. So the 12th level ability without a craft feat is useless basically. Pretty much, yeah. That's one of the reasons why the Artificer gets so many Craft feats.
#21 JaredSyn70 Jun 01, 2012 16:58:48	QSLA actually makes the ability a free action so each round I could technically blast and attack with a sword if I chose to. Sweet that could really deal some serious damage. Especially if I am using retributive invisibility which means i stay invisible when I attack.
#22 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 01, 2012 17:12:09	QSLA actually makes the ability a free action so each round I could technically blast and attack with a sword if I chose to. Sweet that could really deal some serious damage. Especially if I am using retributive invisibility which means i stay invisible when I attack. No, Quicken is a swift action. It was just printed before the swift action was invented. Every "quicken" style effect was tweaked over time to use the swift action instead. Similarly, your blast is your real damage dealer - most of the damage from your rogue side will not come from your sword or your Strength, but rather from your Sneak Attack, and your blast gets that too. Thus, you can threaten with your sword and still fire off a blast as a swift and then a second as a standard (unless Quicken SLA prevents that, I forget if it has that wording or not). The last build you posted (Rogue 3 Warlock 7 Arcane Trickster 6) has Sneak Attack 7d6 and Eldritch Blast 6d6; unless you go with TWF (which is not going to end well for you, since you have no bonus feats and a horrific attack bonus), you will not be able to outdo the damage from two blasts - particularly because you'll be attacking their FULL AC with any sword and their TOUCH AC with the blast. I'm going to wager a guess that you've mostly played at the low levels before, and at those levels you've not played a spellcaster before. Am I right?
#23 JaredSyn70 Jun 01, 2012 18:50:59	I have been playing for quite some time but never a warlock. I am trying to learn how to play one. Mostly I tend to play rogues or fighters to be honest. Being able to blast twice and possibly get sneak attack damage on both would be huge and as stated do the most damage. What I need to do is find a way to maximize my ability to do do sneak attack damage and staying invisible if I am not mistaken would allow me to deprive my enemy of a dex bonus which means I coudl get sneak damage on both blasts correct? If so then I will probably ditch the fancy sword in favor of something more usefull for defense or helping promote my sneak damage or blast damage. I must have missed a D6 of sneak damage as i only had it at 2D6 for Rogue and 3D6 for Arcane trickster where is the otehr D6 from. I knowI get 1D6 from Rogues Vest and one from Deadly precision on the sword also 1D6 from Bracers of the Hunter. So a total of 8D6 sneak, and 8D6 Eldritch Blast. That twice in one round is heavy hitting. Thanks for clarifying the swift action versus free either way two blasts a round is great. Thanks for the info it is very helpful.
#24 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 01, 2012 19:31:11	I have been playing for quite some time but never a warlock. I am trying to learn how to play one. Mostly I tend to play rogues or fighters to be honest. I guessed this because you were emphasizing attacking with a weapon, which is something only fighter-types and rogue-types (of the silly and outdated, but ubiquitous, "big four" party) usually care about. Spellcasters and warlocks generally care more about hitting with their magical effects. There's several ways to play a warlock. Draco above posted a link to the warlock handbook; it's well worth reading through that first. What I need to do is find a way to maximize my ability to do do sneak attack damage and staying invisible if I am not mistaken would allow me to deprive my enemy of a dex bonus which means I coudl get sneak damage on both blasts correct? Unless the monster can see invisibility or has Blind Fight or has any number of special senses or... yeah, other than all that, invisibility works. Honestly, there's better options available to you than invisibility. If you want my suggestion, if you're taking Quicken already, consider Eldritch Glaive, which can strike with sneak attacks from a flanking position and potentially can do it more than once per round (Combat Reflexes). It's also a good hybrid of the melee you're used to and the warlock that you're learning. To learn more about the "glaivelock", just google that word. I must have missed a D6 of sneak damage as i only had it at 2D6 for Rogue and 3D6 for Arcane trickster where is the otehr D6 from. It was a mistake on my part; I read Sneak Attack off the last line of Arcane Trickster instead of the 6th. That twice in one round is heavy hitting. Just to warn you, if you're using the regular blast and not something like Eldritch Chain, 8d6+8d6 twice is only 32d6, or on average 112 damage (assuming every attack hits, which isn't a good assumption - to really figure this out, you'd need to figure out your chance to hit and scale that damage by that amount. And that doesn't correct for crits.). To get a rough sense of how accurate that attack will be, I'd need to know what your Dexterity looks like. Just for comparison, here's a very basic Rogue 20 specialist sneak attacker. Human Rogue 20 Ability scores 10/15/14/13/8/12 to start, boosting Dexterity every 4th level Feats: Hu Two-Weapon Fighting (reduce TWF penalties) 01 Craven (Heroes of Battle: Add your character level to sneak attack damage) 03 Weapon Finesse (Use Dexterity instead of Strength for attack rolls) 06 Martial Study: Cloak of Deception (Tome of Battle: 1/enc swift action to become invisible for a turn) 09 Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance (Tome of Battle: swift action to gain +2d6 sneak attack until you stop the stance) 12 Shadow Blade (Tome of Battle: Add Dexterity to damage rolls with certain weapons while in Assassin's Stance) 15 Improved TWF (Gain second off-hand attack) 18 Greater TWF (Gain third off-hand attack) Equipment: +6 gloves of dexterity, two Swords of Subtlety enhanced up to +3 Shadow Hand weapons, +4 Manual of Quickness of Action. (All of this except Shadow Hand is in the DMG; Shadow Hand is a +1 enhancement that gives +1 attack if you know a Shadow Hand maneuver (you do) or +3 if you are using a Shadow Hand maneuver (which we are through Assassin's Stance). Note that the swords of subltety are shortswords, which work with Shadow Blade and weapon finesse. Final Dexterity: 30 Attack bonus when making a sneak attack: Base 15 + 10 Dexterity + 5 Weapon +4 Subtlety ability = +34 Final attack routine: +32/+27/+22 main hand, +32/+27/+22 off-hand; this assumes you aren't flanking Damage per hit: 1d6 + 0 Strength +3 enhancement +10 Dexterity +10d6+20 Sneak Attack = average 71.5 per hit This simple build can make all its attacks against touch AC if need be (through cheese methods on par with Quicken SLA - mount a sword with a wand chamber slotted with a wand of wraithstrike to trigger with Use Magic Device; these are in the Spell Compendium and Complete Scoundrel), just like the warlock can. Your build would need to get a ranged attack bonus of +12 (on top of your +10 base attack, so things like Dexterity and Weapon Focus) in order to be as accurate as its least accurate attack, so if we assumed the warlock would "always hit", we'll make the same assumption here as the rogue is always at least as accurate. All-attacks-hit damage: 671.5 = 429. This wasn't even really trying, but I admit I'm being too charitable with that last assumption. This damage drops off pretty quickly if you're not using Wraithstrike cheese, but even if just the first two attacks hit* (which is a fair assumption - their attack bonus is about on par with average AC at level 20, which is the "always hit" range), you're looking at 153 damage.
#25 JaredSyn70 Jun 01, 2012 21:35:42	Honestly I am not as concerned with maxing out damage every round, and 32D6 in one round isn't bad by any means. I am hoping to play a character I can have fun with that has decent survivability. The warlock class just seems to have so much flavor, and teamed with the Whisper Gnome rogue and my invocations. I can bounce around and toy with enemies, not to mention the fun aspect of possibly earning a living in the pilfering trade LOL. Regarding your question about Dex, The characters Dexterity with magical bonuses is 28. As stated previously my main goal is to have fun with the character. My character is going to be somewhat the reluctant hero who still has his vices. If you have any further suggestions that will lead to that I am all ears, and I am very grateful for all of your help thus far.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

JaredSyn70

May 30, 2012 10:45:43

This what I have any improvement suggestions are appreciated.

Race Whisper Gnome:

Rogue 4 BAB: +3 Fort: +1, Ref: +4, Will: +1 Sneak Attack 2D6, Evasion, Trap Sense +1, Uncanny Dodge, 84 Sill Points (Skills: Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Jump, Knowledge Local, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device, Use Rope)

Warlock 7 (2 AT) Eldritch blast 5D6 5 Invocations, Detect Magic, DR 2/Cold Iron, Deceive Item, Fiendish Resilience 1 Fort: +2, Ref: +2, Will: +5 BAB: +5 42 Skill Points (Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Disguise, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge Arcana, Knowledge the Planes, Knowledge Religion, Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device)

Ninja 3 Ki Power, Trapfinding, Sudden Strike 2D6, Poison Use BAB: +2 Fort: +1, Ref: +3, Will: +1 Wisdom to AC Unarmored. 30 Skill Points (Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble)

Arcane Trickster 2 (Required Skills Decipher Script 7, Disable Device 7, Escape Artist 7, Knowledge Arcane 4) Ranged Legerdemain 1x day, Sneak Attack +1D6, BAB: +1, Fort: +0, Ref: +3, Will: +3 16 Skill Points (Skills: Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Hide, Jump, Knowledge, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Profession, Sense Motive, Search, Sleight of Hand, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope

Stats: Str: 11 Dex: 20 +2 Levels Con: 18 Int: 18 Wis: 16 +2 levels Cha:14

BAB: +11/+6 Fort: +8 Ref: 18 Will: 14

Skills: Total 172 (Below scores to not include any bonuses) Appraise 5 Balance 5 Bluff 10 Climb 5 Concentration 5 Decipher Script 7 Disable Device 14 Disguise 8 Escape Artist 7 Gather Information 5 Hide 12 Jump 4 Knowledge Arcana 4 Listen 10 Move Silently 12 Open Lock 8 Sense Motive 6 Sleight of Hand 12 Spot 10 Tumble 8 Use Magic Device 15

Invocations Least: Baleful Utterance, Entropic Warding, Spiderwalk Lesser: Fell Flight, Flee the Scene, (Walk Unseen( From Magic Codex)

Feats: Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Improved Critical Eldritch Blast, Quick Draw, Extra Silence, One more feat?

JaredSyn70

May 30, 2012 18:12:26

Is it me second post for similar build and no responses to either? No one has any build suggestions?

Krusk

May 30, 2012 18:48:39

What is your goal, and what books can you use? Any house rules we should know?

Its not paticularly optimized. I'd do something more like rogue 3/warlock 7/Arcane Trickster 6. You will get the same sneak attack, but better casting.

Do you want to focus on sneak attack, warlock casting or whats the goal? Maybe describe an ideal combat for your PC?

How are you getting around the mage hand requirement?

If your stats are point buy, I'd drop Int a bunch. 14 or so should be the most you need. I'd switch it with strength if you rolled stats.

As a warlock, and paticulalrly with the invocations you have chosen, you don't need high save DCs.

Drop quick draw and improved crit. Both aren't good in general and won't paticulalrly help you. Quick draw can be done as part of a move action by anyone with +1 BAB anyway, and improved crit doesn't pay off fast enough.

I assume you are planing to eldritch blast people while hidden for sneak attack+EB damage? If so, reconsider. The reason sneak attack is any good is that you can do many a round. Eldritch blast specifically lets you only do one attack.

If you agree to totally abandon the concept, I'd go with warlock into hellfire warlock or try to work on some form of glaivelock build. They are really the only two that are viable. Alternatively, consider being doing rogue 3/wizard 7/arcane trickster 6 (eventually 10). It will give almost full wizard casting which is great, and some decent sneak attack damage too if you decide to blast. Either of those suggestions will be way more powerful, but really we need an idea of what you would like to do, before we can help optimize. This was me throwing out random ideas that would improve various different aspects.

**Also what items do you have/will you have? at level 16 this is a very big part of your character

StevenO

May 30, 2012 19:05:14

When it comes to a Rogue/Warlock combo I like looking at an adopted/updated Arcane Trickster class. It may not be the most efficient thing in the world but SA and EB damage would both go up if you could legally enter the class.

deoxhydroxinate

May 30, 2012 21:02:42

If allowed, Hellfire Warlock (and if feeling really cheesy - Uncanny Trickster) and Binder could be a fun add on to the rogue.

Also, entering Arcane Trickster shouldn't be too difficult - you can qualify being able to cast a 3rd level arcane spell or higher (through warlock), the trick would involve adding Mage Hand. I know there are items that can grant it to you, but that is arguable to allow entry (or later progression for that matter).

JaredSyn70

May 30, 2012 21:14:14

I qualify for Arcane Trickster via the Whisper Gnome Mage Hand ability. As far as books go all wizards books are allowed. I was aiming for a very stealthy character with a variety of movement options allowing him to escape if necessary as well as sneak up on people in a variety of ways. I was not necessarily going for a blaster. I like the invocations that are all day effects for the rogue type character. I think sneak attacking is this characters bread and butter, the ninja gives some flavor and allows Wis to AC alleviating the need for actual armor. Oh regarding items I have a pretty high starting gold for this character as the others are pretty magic heavy so any and all suggestions are possible as far as items go.

Any furhter suggestions are very welcome. Thanks. I hope this clarifies things a bit.

Krusk

May 31, 2012 12:28:33

It is very hard to get both of these things

I like the invocations that are all day effects for the rogue type character. I think sneak attacking is this characters bread and butter,

. I'd recomend going warlock 20 or warlock/full invoking prestige class and ditching the sneak attack. 5d6 1/round isn't really enough to matter.

A warlock on his own can be a great stealthy infiltrator thanks to his invocations, but the rogue levels are going to hurt it.

Ninja. Think of their "Use wis to add to AC instead of armor" as a penalty instead of a bonus. Flip it around and say "You can't use armor, but instead you can add your wis to AC". End game a mithril breastplate+5 is giving +10AC, is light armor, and can be enchanted. You'd need a 30 Wisdom to be the same here, and you can't enchant it. Will you have a 30 wisdom? Even at your current level, you have +3 to AC from wisdom. Go buy a non-magic chain shirt and you are better off. Realistically, you can have the +5 mithril breastplate without being near a majority of your money.

JaredSyn70

May 31, 2012 12:54:48

Well can you reccomend a good build for me then if that is the case? I want a stealthy character that can deal some serious damage.

deoxhydroxinate

May 31, 2012 13:48:05

Realistically, what type of character are you leaning more towards? Warlock or Rogue? Both are fine in their own right, and both may be solid damage dealers and stealthy.

Warlock does it with invocations, rogue with skills.

The warlock route is really up to you what invocations to pick, though you could be flying (with perfect maneuverability), invisible, shooting lasers (and honestly, I've found Warlock to be a much more fun class to play than Rogue).

As for builds, Warlock 20 is perfectly acceptable, though there are some interesting PrCs to throw into the mix:

Chameleon - Free floating feat which can be changed as needed. Couple this with the Warlock's UMD class skill, ability to take 10 and the ability to emulate spells and you can pretty much craft any item your heart desires.

Hellfire Warlock - Only 3 levels long and you get +6d6 extra damage added on to your eldritch blast. Some argue that this PrC is an attempt to "fix" warlocks and bring their damage a bit back up to snuff. The only downside here is that each eldritch blast, if using hellfire with it, will drop your Constitution by 1 point (per use). There are many ways to circumvent it: lesser restoration (you could easily craft them), a 1 level dip into Binder (and bind Naberius), or others.

Uncanny Trickster - Not for the lactose intolerant as you use it's "+1 level of existing class features" to apply to Hellfire Warlock. So, for 6 levels (3 in both Hellfire Warlock and Uncanny Trickster) you would get an additional +10d6 Hellfire (6d6 HW + 4d6 UT) damage applied to your eldritch blast.

Mindbender - Honestly, I try to work in this PrC in almost every arcane casting class for just the 1st level dip. 100ft telepathy allows you to nab the feat Mindsight. 'Nuff said.

Those are just a few off the top of my head pertaining to warlock.

#10

JaredSyn70

May 31, 2012 15:40:14

OK can you make a few suggestions then for a straight warlock? I plan to take able learner at first level to make the rogue cross class skills only cost a point, so I can take them for the flavor I am after. I plan to take the following invocations.

Least: Baleful Utterance, Entropic Warding, Spiderwalk. (Codex Advocare See the Unseen)
Lesser: Fell Flight, Flee the Scene, Walk Unseen
Greater: Chilling Tentacles, Retributive Invisibility, Vitriolic Blast
Dark: Path of Shadow

Any other suggestions feat wise. I am thinking Able Learner, Battle Caster, Improved Initiative. Flyby Attack, Great Flyby Attack, one more ??? or any you think I shoudl change?

#11

JaredSyn70

Jun 01, 2012 5:25:11

OK I reworked and now have Rogue 3 Warlock 7 Arcane Trickster 6. I have a nice selection of skills, and a decent attack bonus and very nice sneak attack with items 8D6. I have the invocations I wanted as well. It should be a very well playable character. My only tough point was feats. I took Improved initiative +17, Extra Silence 7x day, Silencnig strike, flyby attack, Blooded +2 Init, and close quarters fighting, just in case someone tries to grapple me.

Items hat of disguise
Chausable fell power Greater
Codex Advocare
Mithril Breastplate +4
Rogues Vest
Bracers of the hunter
Casting gloves
Boots elvenkind
Rign freedom of movement and X-Ray vision
Dagger of liefkeeping and
+3 short sword Deadly precision, Shadowstrike

#12

Krusk

Jun 01, 2012 9:48:03

www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID...

is the warlock handbook you might get some benefits from. Its not 100% complete though.

For your build. Why no stat boosting items? They are relatively cheap, and super handy/important. Don't take close quarters fighting. Consider scribe scroll? Being able to make a scroll of any spell in the game is pretty nice and will really up your versatility.

I just noticed you have a freedom of movement ring. You are immune to grapples, don't take close quarters fighting.

#13

JaredSyn70

Jun 01, 2012 12:18:31

I missed an item called Belt of magnificence. Which boosts stats. I will swap out close quarters fighting I did not realize freedom of movement prevented grapple. Scribe scroll sounds good. That way I can make items and scrolls. Quite nice. Thanks for the help. Anyone notice any other issues with build?

#14

deoxhydroxinate

Jun 01, 2012 12:33:06

Quicken Spell Like Ability is a solid feat choice.

Scribe Scroll and other item creation feats are usually nice for Warlock.

Belt of Battle is fantastic, though I know a few DMs that don't always allow them so I'd check to be sure.

#15

JaredSyn70

Jun 01, 2012 12:46:59

Warlocks don't need craft feats correct? Doesn't one of their abilities grant them the ability to create with a UMD check or did I misread it?

#16

JaredSyn70

Jun 01, 2012 13:40:51

OK a question if I Eldeitch blast someone from behind do I get to add sneak attack damage as well. I would think yes.

#17

Tempest_Stormwind

Jun 01, 2012 15:10:24

Warlocks don't need craft feats correct? Doesn't one of their abilities grant them the ability to create with a UMD check or did I misread it?

At level 12, they get the ability to use a UMD check to replicate the spells even though they can't cast them. They still need the item creation feat. This is one of the reasons why Chameleon is a popular Warlock PrC - they get a floating feat which can be a crafting feat whenever you want it to be and a combat feat otherwise.

OK a question if I Eldeitch blast someone from behind do I get to add sneak attack damage as well. I would think yes.

It isn't 'from behind' - it's whenever you use the attack against a target denied their Dexterity bonus to AC or if you're flanking the target when you attack it. But the key here is "attack" - Eldritch Blast uses an attack roll, so it gets the bonus if it hits.

...Interesting. I never noticed this before, but it seems like you can wield a weapon and still use Eldritch Blast as long as you have a hand free, and you'd be doing this without TWF penalties. Thus you can actually threaten the target, and actually flank the target, using your weapon, and still blast them for sneak attack damage. This is going to be tricky to do in melee, since using the blast provokes attacks of opportunity, but it appears to be workable.

#18

JaredSyn70

Jun 01, 2012 15:10:52

If i choose Quicken spell like ability, I assume I coudl use that for Eldritch blast and be able to use it each round as well as attack?

#19

JaredSyn70

Jun 01, 2012 15:14:20

Thanks Tempest from behind was a reference to dexless. So the 12th level ability without a craft feat is useless basically.

#20

draco1119

Jun 01, 2012 16:32:37

If i choose Quicken spell like ability, I assume I coudl use that for Eldritch blast and be able to use it each round as well as attack?

Except that then you would be taking TWF penalties. What Tempest was saying is to just hold the weapon - that lets you threaten adjacent squares, giving you flanking and Attacks of Opportunity. Then you hit them with the Eldritch Blast, which is your true damage-dealer.
I forget where to find Quicken SLA, but I think it works to make your Blasts swift actions, which, like Quickened spells, wouldn't provoke AoO. I could be wrong about that, though.

Thanks Tempest from behind was a reference to dexless. So the 12th level ability without a craft feat is useless basically.

Pretty much, yeah. That's one of the reasons why the Artificer gets so many Craft feats.

#21

JaredSyn70

Jun 01, 2012 16:58:48

QSLA actually makes the ability a free action so each round I could technically blast and attack with a sword if I chose to. Sweet that could really deal some serious damage. Especially if I am using retributive invisibility which means i stay invisible when I attack.

#22

Tempest_Stormwind

Jun 01, 2012 17:12:09

QSLA actually makes the ability a free action so each round I could technically blast and attack with a sword if I chose to. Sweet that could really deal some serious damage. Especially if I am using retributive invisibility which means i stay invisible when I attack.

No, Quicken is a swift action. It was just printed before the swift action was invented. Every "quicken" style effect was tweaked over time to use the swift action instead.

Similarly, your blast is your real damage dealer - most of the damage from your rogue side will not come from your sword or your Strength, but rather from your Sneak Attack, and your blast gets that too. Thus, you can threaten with your sword and still fire off a blast as a swift and then a second as a standard (unless Quicken SLA prevents that, I forget if it has that wording or not). The last build you posted (Rogue 3 Warlock 7 Arcane Trickster 6) has Sneak Attack 7d6 and Eldritch Blast 6d6; unless you go with TWF (which is not going to end well for you, since you have no bonus feats and a horrific attack bonus), you will not be able to outdo the damage from two blasts - particularly because you'll be attacking their FULL AC with any sword and their TOUCH AC with the blast.

I'm going to wager a guess that you've mostly played at the low levels before, and at those levels you've not played a spellcaster before. Am I right?

#23

JaredSyn70

Jun 01, 2012 18:50:59

I have been playing for quite some time but never a warlock. I am trying to learn how to play one. Mostly I tend to play rogues or fighters to be honest. Being able to blast twice and possibly get sneak attack damage on both would be huge and as stated do the most damage. What I need to do is find a way to maximize my ability to do do sneak attack damage and staying invisible if I am not mistaken would allow me to deprive my enemy of a dex bonus which means I coudl get sneak damage on both blasts correct?

If so then I will probably ditch the fancy sword in favor of something more usefull for defense or helping promote my sneak damage or blast damage. I must have missed a D6 of sneak damage as i only had it at 2D6 for Rogue and 3D6 for Arcane trickster where is the otehr D6 from.

I knowI get 1D6 from Rogues Vest and one from Deadly precision on the sword also 1D6 from Bracers of the Hunter. So a total of 8D6 sneak, and 8D6 Eldritch Blast. That twice in one round is heavy hitting. Thanks for clarifying the swift action versus free either way two blasts a round is great. Thanks for the info it is very helpful.

#24

Tempest_Stormwind

Jun 01, 2012 19:31:11

I have been playing for quite some time but never a warlock. I am trying to learn how to play one. Mostly I tend to play rogues or fighters to be honest.

I guessed this because you were emphasizing attacking with a weapon, which is something only fighter-types and rogue-types (of the silly and outdated, but ubiquitous, "big four" party) usually care about. Spellcasters and warlocks generally care more about hitting with their magical effects.

There's several ways to play a warlock. Draco above posted a link to the warlock handbook; it's well worth reading through that first.

What I need to do is find a way to maximize my ability to do do sneak attack damage and staying invisible if I am not mistaken would allow me to deprive my enemy of a dex bonus which means I coudl get sneak damage on both blasts correct?

Unless the monster can see invisibility or has Blind Fight or has any number of special senses or... yeah, other than all that, invisibility works.

Honestly, there's better options available to you than invisibility. If you want my suggestion, if you're taking Quicken already, consider Eldritch Glaive, which can strike with sneak attacks from a flanking position and potentially can do it more than once per round (Combat Reflexes). It's also a good hybrid of the melee you're used to and the warlock that you're learning. To learn more about the "glaivelock", just google that word.

I must have missed a D6 of sneak damage as i only had it at 2D6 for Rogue and 3D6 for Arcane trickster where is the otehr D6 from.

It was a mistake on my part; I read Sneak Attack off the last line of Arcane Trickster instead of the 6th.

That twice in one round is heavy hitting.

Just to warn you, if you're using the regular blast and not something like Eldritch Chain, 8d6+8d6 twice is only 32d6, or on average 112 damage (assuming every attack hits, which isn't a good assumption - to really figure this out, you'd need to figure out your chance to hit and scale that damage by that amount. And that doesn't correct for crits.). To get a rough sense of how accurate that attack will be, I'd need to know what your Dexterity looks like.

Just for comparison, here's

a very basic Rogue 20 specialist sneak attacker.

Human Rogue 20
Ability scores 10/15/14/13/8/12 to start, boosting Dexterity every 4th level
Feats:
Hu Two-Weapon Fighting (reduce TWF penalties)
01 Craven (Heroes of Battle: Add your character level to sneak attack damage)
03 Weapon Finesse (Use Dexterity instead of Strength for attack rolls)
06 Martial Study: Cloak of Deception (Tome of Battle: 1/enc swift action to become invisible for a turn)
09 Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance (Tome of Battle: swift action to gain +2d6 sneak attack until you stop the stance)
12 Shadow Blade (Tome of Battle: Add Dexterity to damage rolls with certain weapons while in Assassin's Stance)
15 Improved TWF (Gain second off-hand attack)
18 Greater TWF (Gain third off-hand attack)

Equipment: +6 gloves of dexterity, two Swords of Subtlety enhanced up to +3 Shadow Hand weapons, +4 Manual of Quickness of Action. (All of this except Shadow Hand is in the DMG; Shadow Hand is a +1 enhancement that gives +1 attack if you know a Shadow Hand maneuver (you do) or +3 if you are using a Shadow Hand maneuver (which we are through Assassin's Stance). Note that the swords of subltety are shortswords, which work with Shadow Blade and weapon finesse.
Final Dexterity: 30

Attack bonus when making a sneak attack: Base 15 + 10 Dexterity + 5 Weapon +4 Subtlety ability = +34
Final attack routine: +32/+27/+22 main hand, +32/+27/+22 off-hand; this assumes you aren't flanking
Damage per hit: 1d6 + 0 Strength +3 enhancement +10 Dexterity +10d6+20 Sneak Attack = average 71.5 per hit

This simple build can make all its attacks against touch AC if need be (through cheese methods on par with Quicken SLA - mount a sword with a wand chamber slotted with a wand of wraithstrike to trigger with Use Magic Device; these are in the Spell Compendium and Complete Scoundrel), just like the warlock can. Your build would need to get a ranged attack bonus of +12 (on top of your +10 base attack, so things like Dexterity and Weapon Focus) in order to be as accurate as its least accurate attack, so if we assumed the warlock would "always hit", we'll make the same assumption here as the rogue is always at least as accurate.

All-attacks-hit damage: 6*71.5 = 429.

This wasn't even really trying, but I admit I'm being too charitable with that last assumption. This damage drops off pretty quickly if you're not using Wraithstrike cheese, but even if just the first two attacks hit (which is a fair assumption - their attack bonus is about on par with average AC at level 20, which is the "always hit" range), you're looking at 153 damage.

#25

JaredSyn70

Jun 01, 2012 21:35:42

Honestly I am not as concerned with maxing out damage every round, and 32D6 in one round isn't bad by any means. I am hoping to play a character I can have fun with that has decent survivability. The warlock class just seems to have so much flavor, and teamed with the Whisper Gnome rogue and my invocations. I can bounce around and toy with enemies, not to mention the fun aspect of possibly earning a living in the pilfering trade LOL. Regarding your question about Dex, The characters Dexterity with magical bonuses is 28. As stated previously my main goal is to have fun with the character. My character is going to be somewhat the reluctant hero who still has his vices. If you have any further suggestions that will lead to that I am all ears, and I am very grateful for all of your help thus far.