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help with rogue/warlock

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
willpower
Feb 15, 2009 14:08:01 Hey,

I've been toying with an idea for a while, that I think might be cool, though I'm not sure if it will actually work very well. The title says it, I am trying to make a rogue/warlock build that doesn't suck. I'm thinking that the combination of SA, Hideous Blow, Rogue skills, and some of the Warlocks abilities to do things like turn invisible at will, or hitting with Beshadowed Blasts might be cool, but from what I have tried so far, they seem to gimp each other.

I have built one out to 10th level so far, and she has 3d6 SA, and 3d6 Eldritch Blast, both of which aren't great, but she can get it off with Hideous blow, and generally gets the SA whenever she wants, but the drawback is she can only get one a round. I know that won't change, but am hoping someone has a build that actually works pretty well.
#2
true_shinken
Feb 15, 2009 14:42:58 Eldritch Glaive > Hideous Blow, IMHO.
#3
nickresonance
Feb 15, 2009 15:28:17 I'd definitely grab Eldritch Glaive over Hideous Blow. Since Glaive is a blast shape, you can still put an essence on it to cause whatever effect you might need. Plus it's a reach weapon that makes melee touch attacks. The downside is it takes a full round action (IIRC) to use it, no matter how many attacks you have. It does let you make iterative attacks, unlike Hideous Blow (uses a standard action).

One stupid question, though. Since Eldritch Glaive is a reach weapon, you can't attack enemies that are adjacent to you (unless there's a ruling somewhere that says otherwise). Does the Short Haft feat from the PHB2 work with the Glaive? Does having the Eldritch Glaive blast shape help qualify for it?
#4
thinblade
Feb 15, 2009 15:39:13 First of all, here's a link to my Warlock Information Compilation. It has a whole lot of information regarding warlocks. It also has a link to the Glaivelock Mini-Guide, which is another fantastic resource.

Now, to your question. Probably the best way to combine warlocks and thieves is to go the Telflammar Shadowlord route. Do a search in the WIC for Nightcrawler, I did an extensive write-up. The short version is that you get an ability to make a full attack after a teleport, and since you can dimension door at will...

If you can't do that, I'd suggest using PrC's to get your SA dice. Probably the best is Unseen Seer, though it's not stated whether US gives SA dice if you don't already have them. You'd need to dip Beguiler 1 to get in, but you lose fewer warlock levels that way than just straight thief multi-classing. Arcane trickster might also work, but it's even harder to get into.

edit: Oh, yes. One other thing. Hideous Blow has that name for a very good reason: it's one of the absolute worst invocations ever published. Eldritch glaive does everything HB should do but doesn't. Take it instead, even though combat feats (like short haft) don't work with it.
#5
willpower
Feb 15, 2009 19:35:59 Will Eldritch glaive work with a weapon? I usually do optimize a character quite a bit, but this campaign is more about the roleplaying aspects. That being said, I don't want a character that sucks, but what I was seeing for this character is a rogue-ish Warlock that can SA and use Eldritch blast, through her Katana. I know I can do that with Hideous Blow, though I don't know Eldritch Glaive much. I have the Complete Mage, which I am fairly certain it is in, but not with me currently.

What I was thinking the standard Combat maneuvers would be is to be invisible, SA with EB added (either through Hideous Blow, or Eldritch Glaive, and have Beshadowed Blast Essence on it. The SA the next round, and go invisible. Rinse and repeat. Though, from what I've seen I will be such a high level doing this sort of thing, that it won't even be that effective, with what I will be fighting, since I will end up either having my Warlock and rogue levels, or taking so few rogue levels that the SA won't be worth anything.

I'll look into what has been suggested. Thanks so far. Any more ideas would be great.
#6
emansdrawkcab
Feb 15, 2009 20:00:33 I don't really understand the reason for your going into melee when your HP is going to be lower than optimal. An effective Rogue/Warlock in my mind looks something more like this:

Rogue 4/ Warlock 4/ Scout 1/ Hellfire Warlock 3/ Scout 8
Feats:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Craven
Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest)
Swift Ambusher
Flyby Attack
Improved Skirmish
And Maybe:
Weapon Focus (Eldritch Blast)/ Dead Eye (DEX to ranged damage)
Knowledge Devotion
Maximize Spell-like Ability
Quicken Spell-like Ability

You'll be doing: 4d6 (Eldritch Blast) + 6d6 (Hellfire Blast) + 7d6+20 (Sneak Attack) + 6d6[+4AC] (Skirmish) on a Sneaking Flyby Attack!
#7
willpower
Feb 16, 2009 9:56:16 EmaNsdrawkcaB,

The character would be going into melee, though not all the time. Only when she so chooses too. It comes from a character standpoint, not an optimization standpoint. Plus, plenty of people without optimal HP go into melee all the time. Rogues do it, I've even seen some wizards do it, to perform such spells as Shocking Grasp, Vampiric Touch and such. (Though it may be better to do that through your familiar... maybe not though)

Your build does sound really good though, but I am confused as to where you get some of the numbers. In my book, Scout at level 9 only gets +3d6 +2AC Skirmish, and a Rogue 4 only gets +2d6 SA. Where do you get the extra SA and Skirmish? Plus you have to give up a point of Con whenever you do such an attack.

Thinblade,

You forgot to post the link you said you were going to post. Can you post it?
#8
oprick
Feb 16, 2009 13:33:53 swift ambusher stacks your scout and rogue levels to determine sneak attack &c.
#9
willpower
Feb 16, 2009 14:23:20
swift ambusher stacks your scout and rogue levels to determine sneak attack &c.

Wow, thats pretty good for a solitary Feat!
#10
willpower
Feb 16, 2009 14:48:49 OK, I looked around a little more, and I found a PRC that would really help to make this combo rock. Albeit, it is not a core PRC, but it is not too overpowered, considering what the one feat (Swift Ambusher) can give you for just the cost of a Feat and this is a PRC.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Eldritch_Shadow_(DnD_Prestige_Class)

I think that would make it to where, she wouldn't be the ultimate Rogue, or the Ultimate Warlock, but would rock nonetheless. Granted, at 20th level, the character can be REALLY powerful, until then, she would simply be powerful.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 willpower Feb 15, 2009 14:08:01	Hey, I've been toying with an idea for a while, that I think might be cool, though I'm not sure if it will actually work very well. The title says it, I am trying to make a rogue/warlock build that doesn't suck. I'm thinking that the combination of SA, Hideous Blow, Rogue skills, and some of the Warlocks abilities to do things like turn invisible at will, or hitting with Beshadowed Blasts might be cool, but from what I have tried so far, they seem to gimp each other. I have built one out to 10th level so far, and she has 3d6 SA, and 3d6 Eldritch Blast, both of which aren't great, but she can get it off with Hideous blow, and generally gets the SA whenever she wants, but the drawback is she can only get one a round. I know that won't change, but am hoping someone has a build that actually works pretty well.
#2 true_shinken Feb 15, 2009 14:42:58	Eldritch Glaive > Hideous Blow, IMHO.
#3 nickresonance Feb 15, 2009 15:28:17	I'd definitely grab Eldritch Glaive over Hideous Blow. Since Glaive is a blast shape, you can still put an essence on it to cause whatever effect you might need. Plus it's a reach weapon that makes melee touch attacks. The downside is it takes a full round action (IIRC) to use it, no matter how many attacks you have. It does let you make iterative attacks, unlike Hideous Blow (uses a standard action). One stupid question, though. Since Eldritch Glaive is a reach weapon, you can't attack enemies that are adjacent to you (unless there's a ruling somewhere that says otherwise). Does the Short Haft feat from the PHB2 work with the Glaive? Does having the Eldritch Glaive blast shape help qualify for it?
#4 thinblade Feb 15, 2009 15:39:13	First of all, here's a link to my Warlock Information Compilation. It has a whole lot of information regarding warlocks. It also has a link to the Glaivelock Mini-Guide, which is another fantastic resource. Now, to your question. Probably the best way to combine warlocks and thieves is to go the Telflammar Shadowlord route. Do a search in the WIC for Nightcrawler, I did an extensive write-up. The short version is that you get an ability to make a full attack after a teleport, and since you can dimension door at will... If you can't do that, I'd suggest using PrC's to get your SA dice. Probably the best is Unseen Seer, though it's not stated whether US gives SA dice if you don't already have them. You'd need to dip Beguiler 1 to get in, but you lose fewer warlock levels that way than just straight thief multi-classing. Arcane trickster might also work, but it's even harder to get into. edit: Oh, yes. One other thing. Hideous Blow has that name for a very good reason: it's one of the absolute worst invocations ever published. Eldritch glaive does everything HB should do but doesn't. Take it instead, even though combat feats (like short haft) don't work with it.
#5 willpower Feb 15, 2009 19:35:59	Will Eldritch glaive work with a weapon? I usually do optimize a character quite a bit, but this campaign is more about the roleplaying aspects. That being said, I don't want a character that sucks, but what I was seeing for this character is a rogue-ish Warlock that can SA and use Eldritch blast, through her Katana. I know I can do that with Hideous Blow, though I don't know Eldritch Glaive much. I have the Complete Mage, which I am fairly certain it is in, but not with me currently. What I was thinking the standard Combat maneuvers would be is to be invisible, SA with EB added (either through Hideous Blow, or Eldritch Glaive, and have Beshadowed Blast Essence on it. The SA the next round, and go invisible. Rinse and repeat. Though, from what I've seen I will be such a high level doing this sort of thing, that it won't even be that effective, with what I will be fighting, since I will end up either having my Warlock and rogue levels, or taking so few rogue levels that the SA won't be worth anything. I'll look into what has been suggested. Thanks so far. Any more ideas would be great.
#6 emansdrawkcab Feb 15, 2009 20:00:33	I don't really understand the reason for your going into melee when your HP is going to be lower than optimal. An effective Rogue/Warlock in my mind looks something more like this: Rogue 4/ Warlock 4/ Scout 1/ Hellfire Warlock 3/ Scout 8 Feats: Point Blank Shot Precise Shot Craven Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest) Swift Ambusher Flyby Attack Improved Skirmish And Maybe: Weapon Focus (Eldritch Blast)/ Dead Eye (DEX to ranged damage) Knowledge Devotion Maximize Spell-like Ability Quicken Spell-like Ability You'll be doing: 4d6 (Eldritch Blast) + 6d6 (Hellfire Blast) + 7d6+20 (Sneak Attack) + 6d6[+4AC] (Skirmish) on a Sneaking Flyby Attack!
#7 willpower Feb 16, 2009 9:56:16	EmaNsdrawkcaB, The character would be going into melee, though not all the time. Only when she so chooses too. It comes from a character standpoint, not an optimization standpoint. Plus, plenty of people without optimal HP go into melee all the time. Rogues do it, I've even seen some wizards do it, to perform such spells as Shocking Grasp, Vampiric Touch and such. (Though it may be better to do that through your familiar... maybe not though) Your build does sound really good though, but I am confused as to where you get some of the numbers. In my book, Scout at level 9 only gets +3d6 +2AC Skirmish, and a Rogue 4 only gets +2d6 SA. Where do you get the extra SA and Skirmish? Plus you have to give up a point of Con whenever you do such an attack. Thinblade, You forgot to post the link you said you were going to post. Can you post it?
#8 oprick Feb 16, 2009 13:33:53	swift ambusher stacks your scout and rogue levels to determine sneak attack &c.
#9 willpower Feb 16, 2009 14:23:20	swift ambusher stacks your scout and rogue levels to determine sneak attack &c. Wow, thats pretty good for a solitary Feat!
#10 willpower Feb 16, 2009 14:48:49	OK, I looked around a little more, and I found a PRC that would really help to make this combo rock. Albeit, it is not a core PRC, but it is not too overpowered, considering what the one feat (Swift Ambusher) can give you for just the cost of a Feat and this is a PRC. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Eldritch_Shadow_(DnD_Prestige_Class) I think that would make it to where, she wouldn't be the ultimate Rogue, or the Ultimate Warlock, but would rock nonetheless. Granted, at 20th level, the character can be REALLY powerful, until then, she would simply be powerful.