by now it's built this way:
Lv: Class [Feat]
1-4: X 4
5: Monk 1 (UA variant: Cobra Strike) [Dodge] [Improved Unarmed Strike]
6: Bloodclaw Master 1
7: Bloodclaw Master 2
8: Master of Nine 1
9: Master of Nine 2
10: Shadow Sun Ninja 1
11: Shadow Sun Ninja 2
12: Shadow Sun Ninja 3
13: Shadow Sun Ninja 4
14: Shadow Sun Ninja 5
15: Shadow Sun Ninja 6
16: Shadow Sun Ninja 7
17: Shadow Sun Ninja 8
18: Shadow Sun Ninja 9
19: Shadow Sun Ninja 10
20: Master of Nine 3
So I'll end up with BAB of 16+ (4 attacks) and Flurry blow with Full BAB. This is about 5 attacks plus 3 from TWF (without -2 penalty) equal 8 attacks. I can take Raging moongose (2 attacks each hand) for a final 12 attacks per turn. Also I have at least two 9th lv maneuver, one of those can be Time stands still, for a total of 20 attacks.
(Edit: actually it won't have 16+ attack BAB unless i get 4 leves in a full BAB class)
Now the main issues are:
1) I'm not quiet sure if I can get 1st lv of monk in the Cobra Strike style and the second lv in Sleeping tiger style. This way I can get 3 feats that are requierments for Master of Nine with 2 lv dip.
2) For the X class I have a few options. At least one lv must be from a martial class to get enought maneuvers to fill the requierments of MoN. It can be a Swordsage or a Warsage. Swordsage is the most obvious option because it has access to all 6 disciplines needed.
The other classes can be Warrior (additional feats, full BAB, d10), Rogue (sneak attack goes pretty well with SSN and SH maneuvers, also has 8+Int skills which are quiet useful), Monke (depending if it can get the 2 styles at the same time), Psychic Warrior (2 feats, Expansion, Vigor, among other powers) or more martial-class levels
3) Anny feat/maneuver/item suggestion is well recieved
I’m a little limited on the books I can use because I’m playing with Spanish speaking.
Also they haven’t much affinity with 3.0 books, but it’s almost accepted
These are the books that we usally use:
Accepted books
-Arms and Equipment Guide
-Book of Exalted Deads
-Book of Vile Darkness (3.0)
-Complete arcane
-Complete Divine
-Comple Adventurer
-Complete Warrior
-Dungeon Master’s Guide
-Dungeon Master’s Guide 2
-Draconomicon (not sure if it’s 3.0 or 3.5)
-Eberron Campaign Setting
-Epic Level Handbook (3.0)
-Fiend Folio (3.0)
-Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
-Libris mortis
-Magic Item Compendium
-Magic of Faerun
-Monster Manual 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5
-Spell Compendium
-Player’s Guide to Faerun
-Player’s Handbook
-Player’s Handbook 2
-Savage Species (3.0, sometimes we use it)
-Serpent Kingdoms (no sharruk xD)
-Tome of Battle: Book of the Nine Swords
-Unaproachable East
-Unearthed arcane
-Weapons of Legacy
A level of swordsage seems the way to go to meet the maneuver prerequisites. Levels in crusader or warblade are still desirable so you can add the maneuvers from master of nine and shadow sun ninja to a class with a good recovery mechanic. The swordsage level should be 5th level, so you can learn a 2nd level setting sun or shadow hand maneuver.
2) Maat's suggestion of Swordsage is ideal, but I'd suggest delaying it until 5th as well. The first four levels should probably be Crusader - Steely Resolve 10 is actually remarkably better than Steely Resolve 5. Another alternative is leapfrogging warblade and crusader to advance both of their initiator levels. (Crusader 2 / Warblade 2 / Swordsage 1 has a crusader IL of 3, a Warblade IL of 3, and a swordsage IL of 3. Furthermore, prestige classes add to all of these initiator levels evenly, even though their maneuver progression doesn't. If the remaining 15 levels were assorted ToB prestige classes, your ILs would be Crusader 18, Warblade 18, Swordsage 18.)
yup... I was thinking the same way. I actually don't like much the crusader recovery mechanic, it's too random. The Crusader mechanic is great, but a little mitigated when you have adaptative style.
I'd just like to chime in here: It's random, yes, but not terribly so. It's also the only maneuver system that does not require an action to recover. This is impossibly important in a game where actions are the most fundamental part of the game.
Two things to note about crusaders that probably will change your mind about it.
1) Read the PrC text. For every new readied maneuver you assign to crusader, you also get another granted maneuver. This means that every crusader will have at most three of his maneuvers withheld at any given time. (This drops to two if you take Extra Granted Maneuver, which nearly every crusader should if it can be fit in.) A crusader 15 / Mo9 5 (using Martial Studies to learn the other maneuvers - not optimal, but for illustration) with Extra Granted Maneuver would be able to ready 11 maneuvers and would have 9 of them granted at the start of battle. This means that, if you have just one maneuver you really, really need, there's only an 18% chance of it not being in your "starting hand", and just a 9% chance of it still being unavailable at the end of your first round. It's random, but the odds are in your favor. And the more granted maneuvers you get, the higher those odds climb (relatively - even a stock crusader with Extra Granted Maneuver has just a 40% chance of not starting out with a specific maneuver, and just a 20% chance of not having it after the first round.).
2) Extra Granted Maneuver isn't just expanding your options - it's increasing your stamina. If you have three withheld maneuvers (the standard for all crusaders without that feat, no matter their PrCs), you automatically recover your maneuvers at the end of the fourth round. If you have Extra Granted Maneuver, you recover at the end of the third round. In both cases, this recovery doesn't cost you an action, so every single round you can unload your maneuvers and not have to worry since they'll come back on their own. (Warblades and - especially - swordsages have to hold their actions in reserve and time their recoveries. You can just keep on attacking as if you were a barbarian.) In fact, in some extreme cases (the aforementioned crusader 15 / Mo9 5, for instance), Extra Granted Maneuver will mean you will be physically incapable of using all your maneuvers before you recharge, unless you have a source of extra actions.
For these reasons, you really want to assign your readied maneuvers to Crusader. And to fill those readies, you also want to assign your known maneuvers to Crusader.
Adaptive Style certainly helps, but its action cost makes it prohibitive for everyone except swordsages. For crusaders, it only helps make sure you have the perfect maneuvers ready - it doesn't help you recover at all. (Keep an eye open in your next battle for how many spare full-round actions you have compared to how many non-actions you have. This goes double if you're acting as the tank, and thus need to keep the pressure up on the enemy.)
I haven't considered getting swordsage at 5th level, it's a good idea. I was thinking using it at first level if I don't get a rogue level (I'm not quiet sure if it's really useful, +1d6 SA isn't much, it mostly let me qualify to get SA feats Arterial strike or Hamstring) so i get additional skill points.
One thing to consider instead is Ninja (Wait, wait, hear me out!). You don't get quite as many skill points, but you get improved Wisdom synergy (the swordsage grants you +Wis to AC in light armor, the ninja does it unarmored (and, interestingly, the swordsage doesn't say it doesn't stack. Still, I wouldn't count on it.). Furthermore, the ninja's Ki pool benefits from high Wisdom), you get an invisibility action with only 2 levels (it's essentially the Cloak of Deception maneuver, but you can use it multiple times without recovery) which lets you deliver Sudden Strike on command, and Sudden Strike counts for the ambush feats just as readily as sneak attack. Furthermore, sudden strike adds to your unarmed damage with Touch of the Shadow Sun.
(Our group's primary healer is a SSN who does this judiciously. Incidentally, he also dipped Swordsage at 5 - Cloak of Deception, Flashing Sun, and Drain Vitality are all great level 2 maneuvers that you can grab with just one level of swordsage at 5th. You also get access to a stance - Cloak of Shadows is probably the best bet for you if you plan on moving around a lot and there isn't a strong sneak-attack contingent in your team.)
1)You generally can't multiclass two variants of the same class together, just as you can't be an enchanter/diviner.
Yea... I thought so, but it said that "A monk can abandon her fi ghting style by selecting a differentbonus feat at 2nd or 6th level..." I thought maybe it was possible.
I'd just like to chime in here: It's random, yes, but not terribly so. It's also the only maneuver system that does not require an action to recover. This is impossibly important in a game where actions are the most fundamental part of the game.
Yea, actually you are right. I didn't know that gaining a readied maneuver you also get an additional granted maneuver, that's really cool. Also one of the reasons that I didn't want to use crusader's recovery mechanic as my main is that it's not clear how it acts outside battle. And some maneuvers are more useful outside battle than inside (like Shadow haunt)
One thing to consider instead is Ninja (Wait, wait, hear me out!). You don't get quite as many skill points, but you get improved Wisdom synergy (the swordsage grants you +Wis to AC in light armor, the ninja does it unarmored (and, interestingly, the swordsage doesn't say it doesn't stack. Still, I wouldn't count on it.). Furthermore, the ninja's Ki pool benefits from high Wisdom), you get an invisibility action with only 2 levels (it's essentially the Cloak of Deception maneuver, but you can use it multiple times without recovery) which lets you deliver Sudden Strike on command, and Sudden Strike counts for the ambush feats just as readily as sneak attack. Furthermore, sudden strike adds to your unarmed damage with Touch of the Shadow Sun.
Actually it doesn't stack with the monk. It's written in the FAQ's (page 9):
Does the Armor Class bonus ability from the monk,swordsage, and ninja stack?
No, each of these abilities provides the same bonus. You are not able to benefit from multiple sources that have the samename more then once.
Also the main issue with ninja is that it's harder to make sudden strikes at high levels than sneak attack. Invisibility works well until creatures start getting see invisibility and true seeing. I still can sneak attack flanking with an ally, distracting ember or island of blades.
(Our group's primary healer is a SSN who does this judiciously. Incidentally, he also dipped Swordsage at 5 - Cloak of Deception, Flashing Sun, and Drain Vitality are all great level 2 maneuvers that you can grab with just one level of swordsage at 5th. You also get access to a stance - Cloak of Shadows is probably the best bet for you if you plan on moving around a lot and there isn't a strong sneak-attack contingent in your team.)
Interesting concept, I thougt of using Touch of the shadow hand to heal my allies, but I can't figure how is he your main healer. I like Cloak of deception and Flashing Sun maneuvers, but Drain vitality doesn't sound much useful to me.
Thanks, it was very helpful. I will probable get 1 dip level at all three like you said. It opens a tree of maneuvers to use, and a lot of options at the combat. I still have a doubt if I can learn a maneuver with crusader's recovery mechanic and 1 with swordsage recovery mechanic with the same PrC (e.g. Master of Nine). Also I'm thinking if it will be better to be an antropomorphic monkey (nice wisdom and dexterity boost, also small for AC/attack bonus), antropomorphic owl (don't like the +1 LA much, but +6 wisdom, +4 dexterity, small size gives me a high AC/attack bonus, and also a flying speed; the low movement from the owl is compensatad with the monks boost to movement speed) or human (feats, skills and favored class). Also I'm looking for feats. I'm thinking on Shadow blade and Weapon finnese. Unfortunatly, my DM doesn't allow traits and flaws. So I have 7 feats (8 if human) plus additionals from classes, but I need 5 as a prerrequisite for MoN and 1 for BcM
Yea... I thought so, but it said that "A monk can abandon her fi ghting style by selecting a differentbonus feat at 2nd or 6th level..." I thought maybe it was possible.
That just means they don't have to gain the chosen feat as a bonus feat. However, that should (I think; it's a variant so this is going to be DM-dependent) only have access to the standard monk lists at those levels.
Yea, actually you are right. I didn't know that gaining a readied maneuver you also get an additional granted maneuver, that's really cool. Also one of the reasons that I didn't want to use crusader's recovery mechanic as my main is that it's not clear how it acts outside battle. And some maneuvers are more useful outside battle than inside (like Shadow haunt)
All maneuvers outside of battle generally only recover once every minute (or once every 5 minutes, I forget which), no matter what class you're using them with.
Actually it doesn't stack with the monk. It's written in the FAQ's (page 9):Does the Armor Class bonus ability from the monk,swordsage, and ninja stack?
No, each of these abilities provides the same bonus. You are not able to benefit from multiple sources that have the samename more then once.
Thanks. Even if you scratch the section on the AC bonus, though, the rest of my advice holds.
Also the main issue with ninja is that it's harder to make sudden strikes at high levels than sneak attack. Invisibility works well until creatures start getting see invisibility and true seeing. I still can sneak attack flanking with an ally, distracting ember or island of blades.
Or hit 'em with any number of "the target becomes flat-footed" moves, or have an ally cast Grease (balancing creatures with less than 5 ranks in Balance (a rarely-taken skill) lose their Dexterity bonuses to AC). It's not as ready as flanking, but it's still a good option - and unlike a pure ninja, you're not actually relying upon Sudden Strike to deal damage. It's just a nice bonus in addition to having a source of invisibility early on, a decent number of skill points, and a bit of wisdom synergy. (It's intended as a replacement for rogue, not swordsage.)
Interesting concept, I thougt of using Touch of the shadow hand to heal my allies, but I can't figure how is he your main healer. I like Cloak of deception and Flashing Sun maneuvers, but Drain vitality doesn't sound much useful to me.
You'd be amazed how much more important offense is than healing in D&D. The ability to deal unarmed strike damage with a touch attack (and a good damage type, too) and then heal without using a standard action is far better than using your standard action to not attack but cast a heal spell. Combined with a fighter-type who's designed to dish out absurd damage (double scimitars, blood in the water, Revenant Blade, and Sudden Leap; he's already turning the enemy into chunky salsa. Two levels from now he'll have Stormguard Warrior and the last Revenant Blade ability, which will turn the chunky salsa into fine mist.), and a summoner (Astral Constructs make amazing tanks - any damage on a construct is damage not aimed at the team), and the SSN is more than capable of healing the rest. Anything he can't restore mid-battle ends up being patched up with healing belts, wands of lesser vigor, and our team ardent's Touch of Health (the least efficient power imaginable, but we only use it as a backup).
In another game of mine, the SSN was also the primary healer. His build was also a Mo9 build that used strategic Fighter and Cobra Strike Monk dips to pull it off... I'll see if I can dig it up. In the meantime, read this. It should help show why Touch of the Shadow Sun should be enough to heal, if you're applying it right.
As for Drain Vitality, it's the least useful of the ones mentioned here; it just bears mentioning because it's reasonably reliable ability score damage.
I still have a doubt if I can learn a maneuver with crusader's recovery mechanic and 1 with swordsage recovery mechanic with the same PrC (e.g. Master of Nine).
Re-read the heading "Martial Adepts" in the PrC section of the ToB. In a nutshell, every time you gain a new maneuever, ready slot, or stance, you choose which class you assign it to, and it acts in all ways as if it came from that class. The only exception is that it must be drawn from the prestige class' list of schools. Furthermore, you add your level in each of these PrCs to each initiator level you have (so a crusader 5 / swordsage 5 / Mo9 5 has an initiator level of 12 in both Crusader and Swordsage; if he took a level of warblade he'd raise to 13 Crusader, 13 Swordsage, and 11 Warblade.).
With this in mind, there's no reason to ever assign new maneuvers to your swordsage progression unless you do not want them to auto-refresh in battle.
Also I'm thinking if it will be better to be an antropomorphic monkey (nice wisdom and dexterity boost, also small for AC/attack bonus), antropomorphic owl (don't like the +1 LA much, but +6 wisdom, +4 dexterity, small size gives me a high AC/attack bonus, and also a flying speed; the low movement from the owl is compensatad with the monks boost to movement speed) or human (feats, skills and favored class).
Given how the anthropomorphic template is from Savage Species, which is a broken-as-hell book from 3e (not 3.5), I would always suggest human over those. There are other options among more common races too, of course.
Also I'm looking for feats. I'm thinking on Shadow blade and Weapon finnese. Unfortunatly, my DM doesn't allow traits and flaws. So I have 7 feats (8 if human) plus additionals from classes, but I need 5 as a prerrequisite for MoN and 1 for BcM
Look here for alternatives.
All maneuvers outside of battle generally only recover once every minute (or once every 5 minutes, I forget which), no matter what class you're using them with.
Yea... I know how to recover them, the thing is that with a swordsage or warsage you can use a maneuver as long as you have it ready. The diference with the crusader is that you have granted maneuvers, and they are granted when the encounter starts, but doesn't specify what happen when you are not fighting.
Or hit 'em with any number of "the target becomes flat-footed" moves, or have an ally cast Grease (balancing creatures with less than 5 ranks in Balance (a rarely-taken skill) lose their Dexterity bonuses to AC). It's not as ready as flanking, but it's still a good option - and unlike a pure ninja, you're not actually relying upon Sudden Strike to deal damage. It's just a nice bonus in addition to having a source of invisibility early on, a decent number of skill points, and a bit of wisdom synergy. (It's intended as a replacement for rogue, not swordsage.)
The thing is that you get invisibility at 2nd level, and a 2 level dip is a little too much for this char. Actually I realized that I have a problem. I have 5 levels to spend in the standard classes.
Now... I need 4 levels in full BAB classes to get +16 BAB and my fourth attack. Crusader and Warsage give full BAB and maneuvers, so they are in. Now i have only 1 slot to fulfill with swordsage or monk. Swordsage gives me Weapong focus (unarmed strike among others with TC discipline), +1 to initiative, more skill points and the maneuvers from SS and SH needed for the SSN. On the other hand, Monk gives me 2 feats that are required for MoN, flurry blows and exploits better the bonuses from SSN (the movement speed, unarmed damage, flurry penalty reduction aren't given if you don't have previous monk levels). The other 2 levels can be 2 warrior levels (2 selectable feats), 2 Ranger levels (TWF needed for BcM and Track - I love this feat, specially when you get scent from a 1st level stance :P-, better saves than the fighter, Wild empathy and favored enemy for a bonus track :P) or 2 more crusader levels (zealous surge-that can save you on a "save or die" , a second stance, another maneuver and get access to 9th level maneuvers 1 level earlier).
The other option is to lose the +16 BAB and the forth attack (along with with another attack from Time stands still) and get 1/2 monk levels, 1/2 swordsage levels, 1 Crusader level and 1 Warsage level. The decision there is between evasion and another maneuver&stance.
Now... I have 28 point buy or some horrible rolls (15,15,15,13,8,5!!!). I'm not sure if I should go Str or Dex. I'll probably need Wisdom as my main stat. With Dex I have AC, but with Str I don't need to use the 2 feats to aply Dex to attack/damage. I'm thinking this way:
Str: 16
Dex: 10
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 8
Don't like it very much, but my DM is a little penny-pincher :P (but he still send us 1 CR at the party level for each one of us xD)
In another game of mine, the SSN was also the primary healer. His build was also a Mo9 build that used strategic Fighter and Cobra Strike Monk dips to pull it off... I'll see if I can dig it up. In the meantime, read this. It should help show why Touch of the Shadow Sun should be enough to heal, if you're applying it right.
I couldn't find anything about the Touch of the Shadow Sun in the post, at least not in that page.
Given how the anthropomorphic template is from Savage Species, which is a broken-as-hell book from 3e (not 3.5), I would always suggest human over those. There are other options among more common races too, of course.
I don't actually understand why everybody says SS is broken. The only thing "broken" that i've found there is feral (that also depends on what you consider "monstrous HD" for aptitudes). And even with feral, there are things much more broken in other books (DMM feat, Incantatrix, the one who should not be mentioned -a.k.a. Pun Pun :P), even in core (can you say Gate, Wish, Shapechange, PAO, Red Wizard, pixie, etc)
Look here for alternatives
Thx very much, I liked it more than the other "X to Y bonus" threads.
One more thing, I've downloaded the Tome of battle Errata from the errata page... and actually... it's the Complete Mage's errata... is there some way to get the correct errata, or to tell someone in wizards to upload it? (at least to the forums)... cause an Errata from ToB is quiet needed as an errata from SS is...
I'm asking about this because, if our wizard can't be a trap finder/lock opener/whatever, I will have to spend skill points on it