Help with soldier cohort

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

gorthawar

May 19, 2009 4:56:03		Since two of our players were absent quite a bit lately I got the approval from my DM to switch feats from just aquired extent spell to leadership and take one of the soldiers we just rescued as my cohort.

Our group consists of a lvl5 gnome rogue/swashbuckler going for invisible blade, a lvl5 human rogue/wizard on its path to unseen seer and myself a lvl6 elfen cleric archer. The human monk and half-ork barbarian are missing most of the time which reaps us of a good flanking buddy for the rogue and someone who can take the heat off us casters/archers.

Now I need a little help with his build. Due to him being a neutral good soldier of 4th level he's limited to classes like fighter and or ranger that fits into the role of a veteran hailing from civilized lands.

It's a 28pts build where most sources are allowed if I'm able to convince our DM. The closer I stick to core the easier it gets. It s a forgotten realms campaign near watergate so all books from that campaign setting are fine too.

Some kind of battlefield control would be nice but a spiked chain is not really fitting nor available at the moment.

This is what I got so far:

Human Fighter4 using a flail or heavy flail
Str:16, Dex: 14, Con: 14, Int: 14, Wis: 10, Cha: 8
Feats:
H: Combat Reflexes
1: Power Attack
F1: Combat Expertise
F2: Imp. Trip
3: Close-Quarter Fighting
F4: perhaps deft opportunist?
6: I like brutal strike a lot here ofc it'll take another 2 lvls

What do you think? How to continue from there? Are there better possibilities within the constraints I postet?

Here is my char for reference if it helps:
Lvl 6 Cleric of Solonar Thelandira planning to become a Divine Disciple at lvl 8
Str:10, Dex: 16, Con: 10, Int: 10, Wis: 16, Cha: 14
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus Longbow, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Leadership

Thanks
Gorthawar
#2

carnivore

May 19, 2009 5:39:09 		for a Cohort.... try something that will help out your character even more... try this:

Wood Elf
Ranger 2/ Fighter 2

Attributes(28pt buy)

16 Str(14 +2 Racial)
16 Dex(14 +2 Racial)
14 Con(15 -2 Racial +1 Lvl)
12 Int(14 -2 Racial)
10 Wis(10)
8 Cha(8)

Feats:
Track(Ranger bonus)
TWF(Ranger bonus)
Power Attack(Fighter bonus)
Combat Reflexes(Fighter bonus)
1st lvl: Weapon Focus (halberd)
3rd lvl: Hold the Line

you can Trip with the Halberd without needing the Feat(but you dont get the additional Attack)

this gives great Saves(Fort and Ref) and great Skills also better class abilities

:D
#3

gorthawar

May 19, 2009 6:13:13 		Too bad I've to take a human cohort instead of a wood elf. I like a halberd especially with hold the line. Would you take spinning halberd as an extra feat? It doesn't look that great but your build would qualify. How would you proceed after lvl 4? Ranger3 is nice to get endurance but then is it fighter lvls again?

With human as race it look like this

neutral good human fighter2/ranger2
Str 16
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 8

Feats:
Track(Ranger bonus)
TWF(Ranger bonus)
Power Attack(Fighter bonus)
Combat Reflexes(Fighter bonus)
1st lvl: Weapon Focus (halberd)
3rd lvl: Hold the Line
Human: Spinning Halberd? or Combat expertise to get Imp. Trip later?

Is weapon focus worth it? Or do I need it only to qualify for spinning halberd or weapon spec later?

Thanks a lot
#4

carnivore

May 19, 2009 8:10:22 		well it would look like this:

Feats:
Track(Ranger bonus)
TWF(Ranger bonus)
Power Attack(Fighter bonus)
Combat Reflexes(Human Bonus)
Weapon Focus (halberd)(Fighter bonus)
1st lvl: Combat expertise
3rd lvl: Hold the Line

Spinning Halberd would be @6th lvl... also take Weapon Specialization(Halberd) .... later Melee Weapon Mastery at 8th lvl

@ 6th looks like this:

Ranger 2/ Fighter 4

Feats:
Track(Ranger bonus)
TWF(Ranger bonus)
Power Attack(Fighter bonus)
Combat Reflexes(Human Bonus)
Weapon Focus (halberd)(Fighter bonus)
Weapon Specialization(Halberd)(Fighter bonus)
1st lvl: Combat expertise
3rd lvl: Hold the Line
6th lvl: Spinning Halberd

since neither Spinning Halberd nor Hold the Line, are Fighter Feats... they have to be taken with Regular Feats

:D
#5

gorthawar

May 19, 2009 10:26:22 		Hey I like it! :D I'd love to get Close-Quarter Fighting in there too since it really sucks to shoot arrows at someone grappling but without flaws I don't see much of a chance for a while.

Thanks a lot
Gorthawar
#6

phaedrusxy

May 19, 2009 10:47:35 		Screw the halberd. It isn't a reach weapon, so it is crap. Use a guisarme, and armor spikes.
#7

carnivore

May 19, 2009 11:19:57 		true, Guisarme is better for Battlefield Control ... but you can gain Reach from other means .... if he uses Guisarme... then instead of Spinning Halberd, take Short Haft

[indent]Short Haft[General, Fighter](PH2 p82)req: Base Attack Bonus +3, Weapon Focus (reach weapon)
As a Swift Action, you may reduce the Reach of any reach weapon (other than Spiked Chain & Whip) by 5’. This changed the squares that you ‘threaten’. Returning the weapon to its normal reach is also a Swift Action.[/indent]

@ 6th looks like this:

Ranger 2/ Fighter 4

Feats:
Track(Ranger bonus)
TWF(Ranger bonus)
Power Attack(Fighter bonus)
Combat Reflexes(Human Bonus)
Weapon Focus (Guisarme)(Fighter bonus)
Weapon Specialization(Guisarme)(Fighter bonus)
1st lvl: Combat expertise
3rd lvl: Hold the Line
6th lvl: Short Haft

:D
#8

phaedrusxy

May 19, 2009 11:37:04 		Bah, just use armor spikes. Why spend a feat on something that 50 gp can replace, and actually do better? (you don't threaten at 5' and 10' with Short Haft, you do with armor spikes and a guisarme) I've always thought that feat is next to worthless. The only thing it has going is that you get to take advantage of whatever enchantments or special properties your main weapon has, but in a low level game, that's rarely an issue. I think it shouldn't be a problem to get a few armor spikes made of different materials, either (silver, cold iron, adamantine, etc) to beat damage reduction.
#9

gorthawar

May 19, 2009 11:47:28
Screw the halberd. It isn't a reach weapon, so it is crap. Use a guisarme, and armor spikes.

Hmm that way I could neither use twf nor spinning halberd which would make at least the 2nd ranger lvl dispensable. While it would make room for close-quarter fighting I'm not sure how that would work out.

What I dislike about it though is that with a guisarme he'd have to move back a step every round to use his main weapon. Thus he can't stop the enemies from getting closer to the squishy people as well. And we do a lot of fighting in tight dungeons where this might be an issue.

edit: I guess short haft solves the second problem. With a fighter that uses weapon spec and weapon mastery I'd lose a lot of damage with armor spikes don't you think?
#10

phaedrusxy

May 19, 2009 11:55:27
Hmm that way I could neither use twf nor spinning halberd which would make at least the 2nd ranger lvl dispensable. While it would make room for close-quarter fighting I'm not sure how that would work out.

You can actually TWF with a guisarme and armor spikes, if you really want to. You can take a 5' step between attacks during a full attack. I'd suggest just dropping TWF, though.

What I dislike about it though is that with a guisarme he'd have to move back a step every round to use his main weapon. Thus he can't stop the enemies from getting closer to the squishy people as well.

Are you kidding? It makes him a LOT better at keeping people from getting to the "squishy people". He threatens a much greater area, and anyone moving through it draws an attack of opportunity. If he takes Improved Trip, Stand Still, or Knock-down, he can stop enemies dead in their tracks before they can even get close enough to attack him, much less anyone who is behind him. And I don't see how taking a 5' step is an issue in most situations.
And we do a lot of fighting in tight dungeons where this might be an issue.

So give him a backup weapon. If you're in a dungeon this tight, at least you know you'll only be fighting smaller sized opponents, so the lack of reach won't be an issue. And you haven't wasted any feats that make you stuck using the guisarme, either. (Assuming you Dump Weapon Focus, which I would).

I have played a lot of characters that used this fighting style. It is extremely effective, and I haven't once regretted it. In fact, I am kind of bored with it, but it is hard to give it up, because everything else seems inferior. So I've taken to playing non-melee characters instead. :P

And you absolutely positively should get some Steadfast Boots (Magic Item Compendium, 1400 gp). Anyone who charges you will be in for a world of pain, as you get a double damage attack on them, and then an AoO because you have superior reach. Many enemies will die before they even get to you.
#11

gorthawar

May 19, 2009 12:15:20 		Doh I guess I have to rethink this build a little :P
Stand Still sound like an awesome feat... now I wonder if my cohort isn't going to be too strong.
Hold the Line loses it appeal when a reach weapon comes into play or do I misunderstand something there? Unless the Opponent has a reach weapon to he will provoke an AoO anyways doesn't he?
#12

phaedrusxy

May 19, 2009 15:30:06 		If they have more reach, you won't be able to threaten them when they charge. If you have more, you'll get an AoO anyway. So yeah, it is only useful against enemies that have exactly the same reach that charge. This situation can come up fairly frequently if the DM also likes to run humanoids with reach weapons, or large sized monsters. But it could also be rare. It will vary from game to game. Personally, I doubt I'd spend a feat on it.

Also, Enlarge Person and other ways to make yourself even bigger are awesome, as long as you're not constrained by a dungeon or something. Once your DM sees how effective this is, expect to start facing more and more monsters with greater reach than your own, resulting in a "reach arms race". :D Of course, the DM will "win" if he wants, but hopefully he won't go too far. (if he's a good DM).
#13

gorthawar

May 21, 2009 6:44:10 		Well I have looked through all the feats again and will probably try to get this past my DM:

Human Ranger2/Fighter2
Str 16
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 8

Human: Combat Expertise
Lvl1: Stand Still
Ranger1: Track
Fighter 1: Combat Reflexes
Fighter 2: Imp Trip
Lvl3: Expert Tactician
Ranger 2: Two-Weapon Fighting unless my DM allows PA from Dragon Magazine

I was thinking of taking Deft Opportunist instead of Expert Tactician but i'd have to switch my Str and Dex scores what do you think?

I really like the addition of someone to our team who knows his way around in the wilderness and will probably continue with 2 fighter lvls follwed by a 3rd ranger lvl for some more skills.

Another Question concerning this:

Also, Enlarge Person and other ways to make yourself even bigger are awesome, as long as you're not constrained by a dungeon or something.

Does the Dex penalty from Enlarge Person affect my feats? Going down from 14 to 12 would cost me combat reflexes and kinda make the whole build a little useless, going going from 16 to 14 would sack deft opportunist if I was to take it.

Thanks
#14

xakypshalorn

May 21, 2009 7:38:46 		Deffinitely don't switch your scores, strength is majorly important for a melee character, doubly so for a tripper who has to make opposed strength checks to trip his targets. The dex penalty question is a good one to bring up, not many people even think about it, but no. As far as I know a penalty won't hurt your feat pre-reqs, unlike damage or drain which would until it was healed away (though it will drop your AoO's from 3 per round to 2, 1+1 instead of 1+2)

The extra reach very much can be worth it though, the more area you protect the better. With 15 feet of reach (large + reach weapon) often the casters can hide adjacent to you while you keep everything out. This is before the casters get access to enough high level slots to be protecting themselves, etc, but brace yourself, if the campaign goes past level 11 or so, varying a little depending on DM, your job will change from protect the squishies to smash the enemies while the casters either support you or try to make you feel small in the pants with their effects lol.
#15

phaedrusxy

May 21, 2009 13:13:42 		Large + reach gives you 20 foot reach, not 15.

Per the RAW, yes you would lose access to Combat Reflexes if your Dex dropped from 14 to 12 due to being Enlarged. However, magical enhancements to your ability score can also let you qualify for feats, per the RAW. So adding a +2 Dex item would solve that problem. Ask your DM how he runs it, though. Not everyone follows the rules on this stuff.
#16

SwordDisciple

May 21, 2009 16:28:44 		Is human set in stone? I know you've said it has to be human but what about a Changeling?
#17

gorthawar

May 22, 2009 16:34:37
Is human set in stone? I know you've said it has to be human but what about a Changeling?

Yes it is. I got the build I posted above approved by my DM. What would the advantage of a changeling be?

Per the RAW, yes you would lose access to Combat Reflexes if your Dex dropped from 14 to 12 due to being Enlarged. However, magical enhancements to your ability score can also let you qualify for feats, per the RAW. So adding a +2 Dex item would solve that problem. Ask your DM how he runs it, though. Not everyone follows the rules on this stuff.

Guess were following the rules. I'll just cast Cat's Grace until we find some Gloves of Dexterity.

Thanks for all the help
#18

SwordDisciple

May 22, 2009 22:42:28
Yes it is. I got the build I posted above approved by my DM. What would the advantage of a changeling be?

Go Changling,

Knight 4 / Warshaper 3 / X..

You get the benefit of making your threatened squares difficult terrain, extra +4 Str & Con. +5ft reach..

And you could get aberration blood and flexible limb feats which gives you 20ft natural reach as a medium creature. Get Knockdown and Standstill as above ;)
#19

gorthawar

May 23, 2009 5:57:36 		Yeah that is a nice idea. My first thought was a Knight as well but being chaotic good I can't have a lawful cohort. And were playing in the Forgotten Realms so I doubt my DM would approve of Eberron races. I'll keep that build in mind untill the right opportunity arises though :D.

Thanks