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Help with two different characters

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
bsauey
Nov 04, 2008 20:00:47 Hey all. I could use some help with two different characters, my wizard and my girlfriends rogue. I showed my girlfriend the order of the bow initiate and the temple raider of olidammara and she likes the both of them. I am wondering how you can combine the two of them to make a decent build. She is a strongheart halfling level 2 rogue. She has point blank shot and precise shot for feats. Any help on her character would be appreciated. Just please no builds that are overly confusing.

With my wizard I want to somehow combine the geometer, loremaster, and olin gisir if that is all possible. If it isn't, the geometer is my least favorite of all three of those. My wizard is a level 2 sun elf who took iron will at first level to prep for olin gisir. I could also use some help on which metamagic feats to take as I have read many different things on which feats are good and which ones are crap.

Thank you so much for helping!!!!
#2
pithica
Nov 05, 2008 13:27:42 I don't particularly like OOBI, but it's mostly because I see limiting myself to a single attack/rd is a waste as an archer. I personally prefer either Peerless Archer (Silver Marches), or Deepwood Sniper (Masters of the Wild 3.0) as prestige classes over OOBI, unless your DM houserules that the +1d8 damage works like SA and can be done as part of a full attack. There are a number of threads on building good archers out there, most better than anything I could do on the fly, so I suggest doing a quick google for them. My only 'trick' with archers is to use the Missile Volley teamwork benefit from PH2 either with the party or leadership or simulacrum (or other 'archer' servants). That's a pretty good boost for almost no cost.

Since you're already taking Iron will, consider going Incantatrix over both Loremaster and Geometer. Wiz 5/Incantatrix 10/Olin Gisir 5 is pretty boss. Which metamagic feats to take depends entirely on your playstyle.

My own personal favorites are: Empower, Chain, Sculpt (prefer Archmage's Shape), Quicken, Persist (requires extend), and Retributive. I also like Smiting for anything Gish-like, and Heighten for a number of different builds that benefit. Sanctum is good if you can get away with the Brie, but I don't know anyone insane enough to allow it for me. If you know the types of spells you'll cast and the types of fights you'll be doing, I can give you better advice, but otherwise I can only give you what I, personally, 'like'.
#3
bsauey
Nov 05, 2008 19:01:32 I don't know if my DM has any house rules because this is his first time dm'ing 3.5e and he is used to playing in 2e. Yeah you heard me right. I don't know if my dm is allowing any Faerun stuff so peerless archer may be out and I don't know if he would allow 3e stuff. Can you suggest a good build that uses some kind of ranged class and combines the temple raider of olidammara? I know that my girlfriend also liked the sound of the combat trapsmith too.

I don't really want to take Incantatrix because you have to drop a school of magic. I would probably drop enchantment but I want to keep it because our party right now only has a fighter, my girlfriend's rogue and my wizard in it. We don't have a divine caster as of yet. I just want to remain more versatile and keep those spells just in case I need them in a pinch. I have picked a few feats that I am going to take and they are extend, empower, quicken, and sculpt. I haven't really had much more time than that to think about this.
#4
innabinder
Nov 05, 2008 19:18:51 Ranger 4/Scout 5/OotBI 7/TRoO 4 is alright; nothing spectacular. Scout 5 is marginally stronger in my opinion than Rogue 5. It's not a great build, by CO standards, but it's playable and fills the request.
#5
pithica
Nov 06, 2008 7:07:22 I'll see if I can dig up the OoBI archer builds I did for a game a while back. Just for the record, though, if he's not playing with Faerun, how is she playing a strongheart halfling?

The benefits of Incantatrix are manifold. First, you get 4 bonus metamagic feats. Second you get cooperative metamagic which lets you make a spellcraft to apply a metamagic feat to a friends spell as he casts it. Third, you get the ability to apply a metamagic feat to a spell effect already in progress. Fourth, you get to apply a metamagic feat to any spell you cast from a wand/staff. Fifth, you can take concentration spells away from enemy casters with a caster level check. Sixth you get two spells a day to apply a metamagic feat to for free with no rolls. Seventh you can sieze control of any duration spell away from opponent spellcasters with a caster level check. And 8th, you reduce metamagic costs from every metamagic feat by one (minimum +1), so that if you did have any metamagic you wanted to use legitimately after all that it isn't as expensive.

Do me a favor and go through the following two guides on enchantment spells...
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1010044
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=960379

And see if you can sell yourself on the school really being worth all of the above. At high levels, many of the things you actually fight will be immune (in one way or another) to enchantments anyway, and those that aren't can be beaten just as easily and with just as much style by another school. Almost every spell is mind-effecting and targets will and most of the good one's are Save-or Lose. You can find plenty of save or lose's in the other schools, that target every save, and aren't mind-effecting if you don't want that (or are, if you do).

Taking all those metamagic feats without Incantatrix (or some other way to get metamagic more cheaply/free) is going to cost you a LOT long term. If you do go with Incantatrix, I suggest taking Arcane Disciple (CoDiv) to add some cleric spells to your spell list (a number of domains come to mind) since you don't have divine caster's in your group. I also suggest (highly) taking persist spell, as the cheese of combining that with Metamagic Effect is just gross (all your personal 1rd/level buffs that you'd almost never get to cast otherwise can be cast in the morning when you mem spells, and last all day).
#6
bsauey
Nov 07, 2008 15:13:47 The reason why my girlfriend is playing a strongheart halfing is because my DM is that inexperienced. I don't think he has read through the PHB or the DMG yet so he doesn't know that they are from Faerun. I am going to talk to him about it though. That would be really nice if you could help with a good build for the rogue. I am going to try to work on that this weekend and post what I come up with for a build for my girlfriend.

Ok so maybe I will drop enchantment and take Incantatrix. How is this for a level and feat progression?

(I don't know how to make a cool level progression spoiler so bear with me)

Progression would be something like this Wiz: 1-5, Incan: 6-15, Olin: 16-20

Feats are something like this:
1st-Scribe scroll, Iron Will
2nd-none
3rd-Extend Spell
4th-none
5th-Empower Spell
6th- Sculpt Spell, Arcane disciple(healing?)
7th-none
8th-none
9th-Quicken spell, Spell Penetration
10th-none
11th-none
12th- Persistant Spell, Extraordinary Spell Aim
13th-none
14th-none
15th-Extraordinary Concentration, Chain Spell
16th-none
17th-none
18th-Craft Staff
19th-none
20th-none

I don't play clerics much, so I don't really know what domains are good choices for arcane disciple. What are good choices for Oilin gisir secrets because I don't really know what I should do for those either because I could think of numerous ways that Trap sense would come in handy but then the extra feat would be really good too so I am kind of stuck on that.

Thank you pithica and InnaBinder for helping and any one else who says anything to help has my thanks.
#7
pithica
Nov 07, 2008 19:23:47 Wiz 5/Incan 10/OG 5 isn't by any means a bad build. It's, in fact, pretty rock solid.

Healing isn't normally a good choice for arcane disciple (with incantatrix). You usually want to go with something that has some really good options for persistent spells, in my opinion.

However, with your party makeup, unless your girlfriend is going to work on getting UMD levels up, you could probably use the healing ability that the Healing domain (or any other domain with a healing type spell in it). Don't waste effort memming the spells (well, at least, not until you get heal and mass heal). Instead, buy wands of CLW and use them OUT OF COMBAT to get your group back up.

I, personally, don't think Spell Penetration is worth a feat slot. You can get the same benefits from spells (such as Assay Spell Resistence), so it's kind of moot. I'd rather have Retributive Spell or Widen Spell or an Easy or Sudden Metamagic feat (or Metamagic School focus) there instead.

I also don't like Craft Staff, but that's more because I generally never have the downtime afforded to me to make my own magic items. YMMV on that.

For Secrets, I'd go for Ancient Artifice (if you want to go the crafting route), or Forgotten Spell Lore (more metamagic can't hurt when it's all cheap, and some free). Bonus Feats are Bonus Feats.
#8
bsauey
Nov 07, 2008 20:31:24 What domains would you say are better than Healing then? I think my girlfriend is going to max UMD so I shouldn't have to worry too much there. I also forgot to mention that we have an npc ranger with us who isn't very good but meh. I don't know how much longer he is going to be with us.

I think I am going to replace Spell Penetration with PBS. What is the feat that allows you to take 10's on caster level checks? I think I might take that one instead too. For craft staff, I think I am going to replace it with arcane thesis, spell mastery, or something like that.

For my secrets, I think I am going to wait until I can get that high in level to decide what to take for my bonus feat(s).
#9
NiteCyper
Nov 08, 2008 12:06:01
my girlfriends rogue. I showed my girlfriend the order of the bow initiate and the temple raider of olidammara and she likes the both of them. I am wondering how you can combine the two of them to make a decent build. She is a strongheart halfling level 2 rogue. She has point blank shot and precise shot for feats. Any help on her character would be appreciated. Just please no builds that are overly confusing.

Well, she could also go into the Invisible Blade PrC (CW?) with those feats. IIRC, it gets INT to AC at first level, specializes in daggers and, by the end of it, you can Feint as a free action to get your opponent flat-footed.

There's also the Master Thrower PrC, Fighter (Hit-and-Run variant, DotU) to get DEX to dmg within 30 ft. against flat-footed peeps, Machine Gun Rogue thread and she can dip into the Ranger class for some quick bonii. If she has high Wisdom (perhaps for boosting that Listen check), she can enter Swordsage for WIS to several things, Zen Archery feat for WIS to damage, and some other stuff.

It depends on her ability scores and what she wants to play. To be honest, I don't know much about archers. As well, with those feats, she'd be well-suited for the Warlock's Eldritch Blast. Along with it comes a few Roguesque bonii such as: Darkness invocation (combine with Blend into Shadows from DotU for virtual-swift-action-HiPS), Flee the Scene, See the Unseen (combine with Darkness), Beguiling Influence (social skill bonii), etc.
#10
emansdrawkcab
Nov 08, 2008 12:36:32 A feat I've always thought was extremely cool was Faerie Mysteries Initiate, it's in a Dragon magazine, so I don't know if you'll be able to use it. But what it does is allows you to base you HP off of INT instead of CON, which could be incredible for your team. A Wizard basing virtually everything off of one stat could be a great boon.

At that Rogues based on INT and DEX are my personal favorite. Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ 14 anything you want, depending on the type of Rogue character you're looking for.

If you could provide a bit more information about the Rogue's style, that would help us help you a lot more.
#11
bsauey
Nov 08, 2008 13:58:53 My girlfriend uses her rogue mostly to do ranged attacks, sneak attacks, and skills. I want to find something that would progress all of those so she can still be a great ranged sneaky skill monkey. Any one have any ideas on that one? She doesn't want to be a melee rogue, and she doesns't want to use daggers so that rules out like 3/4 of the builds so far. I asked her if she wanted to play something else to qualify her for arcane trickster, daggerspell mage or shaper, or shadowbane inquisitor, but she still is thinking about it. As I already mentioned earlier she liked the sound of the temple raider of olidammara and order of the bow initiate but I think you could drop the OoTB although I am not sure.
#12
emansdrawkcab
Nov 08, 2008 14:39:25 Maybe something along the lines of:

Rogue 1/ Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 1/ Bloodstorm Blade 4/ Master Thrower 5/ X 6

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (any thrown weapon)

Bloodstorm Blade 4 is so that you only need one weapon, and can still make a ranged full attack.
#13
bsauey
Nov 08, 2008 14:54:58 That sounds good but what about a build that doesn't use thrown weapons? The rogue uses a light crossbow (I think). What about nightsong infiltrator and something else?
#14
innabinder
Nov 08, 2008 15:01:23
That sounds good but what about a build that doesn't use thrown weapons? The rogue uses a light crossbow (I think). What about nightsong infiltrator and something else?

Nightsong Infiltrator is good. Light crossbow for a Rogue is bad. It requires the use of one of your precious Feats for Rapid Reload just to allow you a chance to use Rapid Shot, which is one of the basic ideas for an archer Rogue - get off more than one sneak attack per round. A shortbow or, if the STR merits it, composite shortbow, is a better investment.
#15
bsauey
Nov 08, 2008 15:05:07 Alright well I will have a talk about all of this stuff with my girlfriend. Thank you all for helping. I'm sorry if I seemed rude emaNsdrawkcaB. I should have mentioned that the rogue doesn't use throwing weapons. Could you please help me with a build that incorporates nightsong infiltator?
#16
innabinder
Nov 08, 2008 15:29:21
Alright well I will have a talk about all of this stuff with my girlfriend. Thank you all for helping. I'm sorry if I seemed rude emaNsdrawkcaB. I should have mentioned that the rogue doesn't use throwing weapons. Could you please help me with a build that incorporates nightsong infiltator?

Sure. It'll be easier if we know stats; Nightsong Infiltrator is rather stat intensive, so knowing whether it's point buy or roll - and if the latter, what the rolls were - makes it simpler. In general, with a ranged build, her least important stats will probably be INT and STR, but it's difficult to dump either with this PrC.
#17
bsauey
Nov 08, 2008 15:35:25 It was 4d6 drop the lowest for rolling. Her stats are Str-11, Dex-19, Con-14, Int-15, Wis-14, Cha-11. Thanks for helping InnaBinder.
#18
emansdrawkcab
Nov 08, 2008 15:35:59 Crossbows generally don't put out the same kind of damage as bows, so if you want to be a ranged Rogue I'd recommend using a bow, not a crossbow.

If the Wizard of the party is going to be buffing the hell out of the Rogue, I'd suggest something along the lines of Scout 15, Ranger 2, and Rogue 3, not in that order of course. Combining Swift Hunter and Swift ambusher for 17 levels of Ranger's Favored Enemy, 18 level of Rogue's Sneak Attack, 20 levels of Skirmish. Alternate Class feature should include: Ranger 1: Favored Enemy (Arcanists), and Rogue 3: (Penetrating Strike).

Feats need to include: Swift Ambusher, Swift Hunter, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Dodge, Mobility, Shot on the Run, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Greater Manyshot.
Feats I recommend: Improved Skirmish, Dead Eye, and Craven.

EDIT: Sorry for not including NS Infiltrator. I left the window open and left the house, and responded when I returned.
#19
innabinder
Nov 08, 2008 17:18:26 Quick build, rough draft:

Rogue 5/Wizard 5/Nightsong Infiltrator 5/Unseen Seer 5. Take Rogue at 1st level, then Wiz, Rogue, 2 more levels of Wiz (2nd level spells are better than 1d6 SA), then Rogue/Wiz alternating to 10. I found it easier to qualify for Nightsong Infiltrator 1st, and by using 5 levels of Rogue. If she chooses to boost INT one or more times, it's most likely better to use Rogue 3/Wizard 7 as the base, because spells are just better.

Feats are Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Skill Focus Concentration, Telling Blow, Practiced Spellcaster, and Wind-Guided Arrows, with Silent Spell, Alertness, and Scribe Scroll for free. I'd recommend a Rat or a Toad for a familiar to shore up obvious weaknesses.
#20
bsauey
Nov 08, 2008 17:54:25 What about something like Rogue 5/Wizard 5/Nightsong Infiltrator 5/Spellwarp Sniper 5 with esentially the same feats?
#21
innabinder
Nov 08, 2008 17:59:06
What about something like Rogue 5/Wizard 5/Nightsong Infiltrator 5/Spellwarp Sniper 5 with esentially the same feats?

Works just fine. Again, Wizard 7 is arguably better but you'll be squeezed for the skill requirements. It's possible, but tight.
#22
bsauey
Nov 08, 2008 19:17:11 Does anyone have any suggestions for good domains to take with arcane disciple?
#23
pithica
Nov 08, 2008 19:49:02 I, personally, like Competition and Pride for Incantatrix (persist) builds. Both have personal range buffs on the cleric list that are awesome if Persisted.

Luck is a solid one, generally, as it affords you several spells Wizards don't get, and it grants Miracle, which can sub for ANY cleric spell when necessary (for no XP cost).

The rules for Arcane Disciple are that you can only cast the spells once a day, so you want to look for domains with spells you only need once a day, that make decent fodder for wands if needed more often, AND aren't on the wizard list.
#24
bsauey
Nov 08, 2008 20:10:08 I have a quick question regarding the feat arcane disciple. Does the feat allow you to cast one of the domain spells in addition to the wizard spells per day or do you have to use a spell slot to prepare the spell?

I just got done talking to my DM and apparently we are getting a cleric or divine caster NPC to adventure with us soon. Does anyone have any ideas for good feats to replace arcane disciple? I was going to take it at level 6 btw.
#25
innabinder
Nov 08, 2008 20:28:05 At 6th level I rather like Magic Sensitive.
#26
bsauey
Nov 08, 2008 21:39:19 I think I might take Metamagic School Focus instead. I took the elven racial substitution level from Races of the Wild, so does that make me a specialist by being a generalist wizard? It replaces my ability to specialize so wouldn't that be right?
#27
pithica
Nov 09, 2008 8:20:30 Arcane disciple doesn't give you an extra spell slot.

Elven Racial Sub isn't the same thing as Specialist wizard. It replaces your ability to specialize. It doesn't qualify you for Metamagic School Focus.

That's okay though, just take Spell Focus-X to qualify.
#28
emansdrawkcab
Nov 09, 2008 13:03:18
What about something like Rogue 5/Wizard 5/Nightsong Infiltrator 5/Spellwarp Sniper 5 with esentially the same feats?

I think that if she plans on being a sneaky rogue-like magic user, it would be more beneficial to use Warlock instead of Wizard. The flavor is all there, and Invocations are a great boon to Rogues, not to mention, being caster level 10 in the end is a waste of 10 class levels.

Also, with the Blend into Shadows feat a Warlock effectively gets Hide in Plain Sight at level 1.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bsauey Nov 04, 2008 20:00:47	Hey all. I could use some help with two different characters, my wizard and my girlfriends rogue. I showed my girlfriend the order of the bow initiate and the temple raider of olidammara and she likes the both of them. I am wondering how you can combine the two of them to make a decent build. She is a strongheart halfling level 2 rogue. She has point blank shot and precise shot for feats. Any help on her character would be appreciated. Just please no builds that are overly confusing. With my wizard I want to somehow combine the geometer, loremaster, and olin gisir if that is all possible. If it isn't, the geometer is my least favorite of all three of those. My wizard is a level 2 sun elf who took iron will at first level to prep for olin gisir. I could also use some help on which metamagic feats to take as I have read many different things on which feats are good and which ones are crap. Thank you so much for helping!!!!
#2 pithica Nov 05, 2008 13:27:42	I don't particularly like OOBI, but it's mostly because I see limiting myself to a single attack/rd is a waste as an archer. I personally prefer either Peerless Archer (Silver Marches), or Deepwood Sniper (Masters of the Wild 3.0) as prestige classes over OOBI, unless your DM houserules that the +1d8 damage works like SA and can be done as part of a full attack. There are a number of threads on building good archers out there, most better than anything I could do on the fly, so I suggest doing a quick google for them. My only 'trick' with archers is to use the Missile Volley teamwork benefit from PH2 either with the party or leadership or simulacrum (or other 'archer' servants). That's a pretty good boost for almost no cost. Since you're already taking Iron will, consider going Incantatrix over both Loremaster and Geometer. Wiz 5/Incantatrix 10/Olin Gisir 5 is pretty boss. Which metamagic feats to take depends entirely on your playstyle. My own personal favorites are: Empower, Chain, Sculpt (prefer Archmage's Shape), Quicken, Persist (requires extend), and Retributive. I also like Smiting for anything Gish-like, and Heighten for a number of different builds that benefit. Sanctum is good if you can get away with the Brie, but I don't know anyone insane enough to allow it for me. If you know the types of spells you'll cast and the types of fights you'll be doing, I can give you better advice, but otherwise I can only give you what I, personally, 'like'.
#3 bsauey Nov 05, 2008 19:01:32	I don't know if my DM has any house rules because this is his first time dm'ing 3.5e and he is used to playing in 2e. Yeah you heard me right. I don't know if my dm is allowing any Faerun stuff so peerless archer may be out and I don't know if he would allow 3e stuff. Can you suggest a good build that uses some kind of ranged class and combines the temple raider of olidammara? I know that my girlfriend also liked the sound of the combat trapsmith too. I don't really want to take Incantatrix because you have to drop a school of magic. I would probably drop enchantment but I want to keep it because our party right now only has a fighter, my girlfriend's rogue and my wizard in it. We don't have a divine caster as of yet. I just want to remain more versatile and keep those spells just in case I need them in a pinch. I have picked a few feats that I am going to take and they are extend, empower, quicken, and sculpt. I haven't really had much more time than that to think about this.
#4 innabinder Nov 05, 2008 19:18:51	Ranger 4/Scout 5/OotBI 7/TRoO 4 is alright; nothing spectacular. Scout 5 is marginally stronger in my opinion than Rogue 5. It's not a great build, by CO standards, but it's playable and fills the request.
#5 pithica Nov 06, 2008 7:07:22	I'll see if I can dig up the OoBI archer builds I did for a game a while back. Just for the record, though, if he's not playing with Faerun, how is she playing a strongheart halfling? The benefits of Incantatrix are manifold. First, you get 4 bonus metamagic feats. Second you get cooperative metamagic which lets you make a spellcraft to apply a metamagic feat to a friends spell as he casts it. Third, you get the ability to apply a metamagic feat to a spell effect already in progress. Fourth, you get to apply a metamagic feat to any spell you cast from a wand/staff. Fifth, you can take concentration spells away from enemy casters with a caster level check. Sixth you get two spells a day to apply a metamagic feat to for free with no rolls. Seventh you can sieze control of any duration spell away from opponent spellcasters with a caster level check. And 8th, you reduce metamagic costs from every metamagic feat by one (minimum +1), so that if you did have any metamagic you wanted to use legitimately after all that it isn't as expensive. Do me a favor and go through the following two guides on enchantment spells... http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1010044 http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=960379 And see if you can sell yourself on the school really being worth all of the above. At high levels, many of the things you actually fight will be immune (in one way or another) to enchantments anyway, and those that aren't can be beaten just as easily and with just as much style by another school. Almost every spell is mind-effecting and targets will and most of the good one's are Save-or Lose. You can find plenty of save or lose's in the other schools, that target every save, and aren't mind-effecting if you don't want that (or are, if you do). Taking all those metamagic feats without Incantatrix (or some other way to get metamagic more cheaply/free) is going to cost you a LOT long term. If you do go with Incantatrix, I suggest taking Arcane Disciple (CoDiv) to add some cleric spells to your spell list (a number of domains come to mind) since you don't have divine caster's in your group. I also suggest (highly) taking persist spell, as the cheese of combining that with Metamagic Effect is just gross (all your personal 1rd/level buffs that you'd almost never get to cast otherwise can be cast in the morning when you mem spells, and last all day).
#6 bsauey Nov 07, 2008 15:13:47	The reason why my girlfriend is playing a strongheart halfing is because my DM is that inexperienced. I don't think he has read through the PHB or the DMG yet so he doesn't know that they are from Faerun. I am going to talk to him about it though. That would be really nice if you could help with a good build for the rogue. I am going to try to work on that this weekend and post what I come up with for a build for my girlfriend. Ok so maybe I will drop enchantment and take Incantatrix. How is this for a level and feat progression? (I don't know how to make a cool level progression spoiler so bear with me) Progression would be something like this Wiz: 1-5, Incan: 6-15, Olin: 16-20 Feats are something like this: 1st-Scribe scroll, Iron Will 2nd-none 3rd-Extend Spell 4th-none 5th-Empower Spell 6th- Sculpt Spell, Arcane disciple(healing?) 7th-none 8th-none 9th-Quicken spell, Spell Penetration 10th-none 11th-none 12th- Persistant Spell, Extraordinary Spell Aim 13th-none 14th-none 15th-Extraordinary Concentration, Chain Spell 16th-none 17th-none 18th-Craft Staff 19th-none 20th-none I don't play clerics much, so I don't really know what domains are good choices for arcane disciple. What are good choices for Oilin gisir secrets because I don't really know what I should do for those either because I could think of numerous ways that Trap sense would come in handy but then the extra feat would be really good too so I am kind of stuck on that. Thank you pithica and InnaBinder for helping and any one else who says anything to help has my thanks.
#7 pithica Nov 07, 2008 19:23:47	Wiz 5/Incan 10/OG 5 isn't by any means a bad build. It's, in fact, pretty rock solid. Healing isn't normally a good choice for arcane disciple (with incantatrix). You usually want to go with something that has some really good options for persistent spells, in my opinion. However, with your party makeup, unless your girlfriend is going to work on getting UMD levels up, you could probably use the healing ability that the Healing domain (or any other domain with a healing type spell in it). Don't waste effort memming the spells (well, at least, not until you get heal and mass heal). Instead, buy wands of CLW and use them OUT OF COMBAT to get your group back up. I, personally, don't think Spell Penetration is worth a feat slot. You can get the same benefits from spells (such as Assay Spell Resistence), so it's kind of moot. I'd rather have Retributive Spell or Widen Spell or an Easy or Sudden Metamagic feat (or Metamagic School focus) there instead. I also don't like Craft Staff, but that's more because I generally never have the downtime afforded to me to make my own magic items. YMMV on that. For Secrets, I'd go for Ancient Artifice (if you want to go the crafting route), or Forgotten Spell Lore (more metamagic can't hurt when it's all cheap, and some free). Bonus Feats are Bonus Feats.
#8 bsauey Nov 07, 2008 20:31:24	What domains would you say are better than Healing then? I think my girlfriend is going to max UMD so I shouldn't have to worry too much there. I also forgot to mention that we have an npc ranger with us who isn't very good but meh. I don't know how much longer he is going to be with us. I think I am going to replace Spell Penetration with PBS. What is the feat that allows you to take 10's on caster level checks? I think I might take that one instead too. For craft staff, I think I am going to replace it with arcane thesis, spell mastery, or something like that. For my secrets, I think I am going to wait until I can get that high in level to decide what to take for my bonus feat(s).
#9 NiteCyper Nov 08, 2008 12:06:01	my girlfriends rogue. I showed my girlfriend the order of the bow initiate and the temple raider of olidammara and she likes the both of them. I am wondering how you can combine the two of them to make a decent build. She is a strongheart halfling level 2 rogue. She has point blank shot and precise shot for feats. Any help on her character would be appreciated. Just please no builds that are overly confusing. Well, she could also go into the Invisible Blade PrC (CW?) with those feats. IIRC, it gets INT to AC at first level, specializes in daggers and, by the end of it, you can Feint as a free action to get your opponent flat-footed. There's also the Master Thrower PrC, Fighter (Hit-and-Run variant, DotU) to get DEX to dmg within 30 ft. against flat-footed peeps, Machine Gun Rogue thread and she can dip into the Ranger class for some quick bonii. If she has high Wisdom (perhaps for boosting that Listen check), she can enter Swordsage for WIS to several things, Zen Archery feat for WIS to damage, and some other stuff. It depends on her ability scores and what she wants to play. To be honest, I don't know much about archers. As well, with those feats, she'd be well-suited for the Warlock's Eldritch Blast. Along with it comes a few Roguesque bonii such as: Darkness invocation (combine with Blend into Shadows from DotU for virtual-swift-action-HiPS), Flee the Scene, See the Unseen (combine with Darkness), Beguiling Influence (social skill bonii), etc.
#10 emansdrawkcab Nov 08, 2008 12:36:32	A feat I've always thought was extremely cool was Faerie Mysteries Initiate, it's in a Dragon magazine, so I don't know if you'll be able to use it. But what it does is allows you to base you HP off of INT instead of CON, which could be incredible for your team. A Wizard basing virtually everything off of one stat could be a great boon. At that Rogues based on INT and DEX are my personal favorite. Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ 14 anything you want, depending on the type of Rogue character you're looking for. If you could provide a bit more information about the Rogue's style, that would help us help you a lot more.
#11 bsauey Nov 08, 2008 13:58:53	My girlfriend uses her rogue mostly to do ranged attacks, sneak attacks, and skills. I want to find something that would progress all of those so she can still be a great ranged sneaky skill monkey. Any one have any ideas on that one? She doesn't want to be a melee rogue, and she doesns't want to use daggers so that rules out like 3/4 of the builds so far. I asked her if she wanted to play something else to qualify her for arcane trickster, daggerspell mage or shaper, or shadowbane inquisitor, but she still is thinking about it. As I already mentioned earlier she liked the sound of the temple raider of olidammara and order of the bow initiate but I think you could drop the OoTB although I am not sure.
#12 emansdrawkcab Nov 08, 2008 14:39:25	Maybe something along the lines of: Rogue 1/ Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 1/ Bloodstorm Blade 4/ Master Thrower 5/ X 6 Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (any thrown weapon) Bloodstorm Blade 4 is so that you only need one weapon, and can still make a ranged full attack.
#13 bsauey Nov 08, 2008 14:54:58	That sounds good but what about a build that doesn't use thrown weapons? The rogue uses a light crossbow (I think). What about nightsong infiltrator and something else?
#14 innabinder Nov 08, 2008 15:01:23	That sounds good but what about a build that doesn't use thrown weapons? The rogue uses a light crossbow (I think). What about nightsong infiltrator and something else? Nightsong Infiltrator is good. Light crossbow for a Rogue is bad. It requires the use of one of your precious Feats for Rapid Reload just to allow you a chance to use Rapid Shot, which is one of the basic ideas for an archer Rogue - get off more than one sneak attack per round. A shortbow or, if the STR merits it, composite shortbow, is a better investment.
#15 bsauey Nov 08, 2008 15:05:07	Alright well I will have a talk about all of this stuff with my girlfriend. Thank you all for helping. I'm sorry if I seemed rude emaNsdrawkcaB. I should have mentioned that the rogue doesn't use throwing weapons. Could you please help me with a build that incorporates nightsong infiltator?
#16 innabinder Nov 08, 2008 15:29:21	Alright well I will have a talk about all of this stuff with my girlfriend. Thank you all for helping. I'm sorry if I seemed rude emaNsdrawkcaB. I should have mentioned that the rogue doesn't use throwing weapons. Could you please help me with a build that incorporates nightsong infiltator? Sure. It'll be easier if we know stats; Nightsong Infiltrator is rather stat intensive, so knowing whether it's point buy or roll - and if the latter, what the rolls were - makes it simpler. In general, with a ranged build, her least important stats will probably be INT and STR, but it's difficult to dump either with this PrC.
#17 bsauey Nov 08, 2008 15:35:25	It was 4d6 drop the lowest for rolling. Her stats are Str-11, Dex-19, Con-14, Int-15, Wis-14, Cha-11. Thanks for helping InnaBinder.
#18 emansdrawkcab Nov 08, 2008 15:35:59	Crossbows generally don't put out the same kind of damage as bows, so if you want to be a ranged Rogue I'd recommend using a bow, not a crossbow. If the Wizard of the party is going to be buffing the hell out of the Rogue, I'd suggest something along the lines of Scout 15, Ranger 2, and Rogue 3, not in that order of course. Combining Swift Hunter and Swift ambusher for 17 levels of Ranger's Favored Enemy, 18 level of Rogue's Sneak Attack, 20 levels of Skirmish. Alternate Class feature should include: Ranger 1: Favored Enemy (Arcanists), and Rogue 3: (Penetrating Strike). Feats need to include: Swift Ambusher, Swift Hunter, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Dodge, Mobility, Shot on the Run, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Greater Manyshot. Feats I recommend: Improved Skirmish, Dead Eye, and Craven. EDIT: Sorry for not including NS Infiltrator. I left the window open and left the house, and responded when I returned.
#19 innabinder Nov 08, 2008 17:18:26	Quick build, rough draft: Rogue 5/Wizard 5/Nightsong Infiltrator 5/Unseen Seer 5. Take Rogue at 1st level, then Wiz, Rogue, 2 more levels of Wiz (2nd level spells are better than 1d6 SA), then Rogue/Wiz alternating to 10. I found it easier to qualify for Nightsong Infiltrator 1st, and by using 5 levels of Rogue. If she chooses to boost INT one or more times, it's most likely better to use Rogue 3/Wizard 7 as the base, because spells are just better. Feats are Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Skill Focus Concentration, Telling Blow, Practiced Spellcaster, and Wind-Guided Arrows, with Silent Spell, Alertness, and Scribe Scroll for free. I'd recommend a Rat or a Toad for a familiar to shore up obvious weaknesses.
#20 bsauey Nov 08, 2008 17:54:25	What about something like Rogue 5/Wizard 5/Nightsong Infiltrator 5/Spellwarp Sniper 5 with esentially the same feats?
#21 innabinder Nov 08, 2008 17:59:06	What about something like Rogue 5/Wizard 5/Nightsong Infiltrator 5/Spellwarp Sniper 5 with esentially the same feats? Works just fine. Again, Wizard 7 is arguably better but you'll be squeezed for the skill requirements. It's possible, but tight.
#22 bsauey Nov 08, 2008 19:17:11	Does anyone have any suggestions for good domains to take with arcane disciple?
#23 pithica Nov 08, 2008 19:49:02	I, personally, like Competition and Pride for Incantatrix (persist) builds. Both have personal range buffs on the cleric list that are awesome if Persisted. Luck is a solid one, generally, as it affords you several spells Wizards don't get, and it grants Miracle, which can sub for ANY cleric spell when necessary (for no XP cost). The rules for Arcane Disciple are that you can only cast the spells once a day, so you want to look for domains with spells you only need once a day, that make decent fodder for wands if needed more often, AND aren't on the wizard list.
#24 bsauey Nov 08, 2008 20:10:08	I have a quick question regarding the feat arcane disciple. Does the feat allow you to cast one of the domain spells in addition to the wizard spells per day or do you have to use a spell slot to prepare the spell? I just got done talking to my DM and apparently we are getting a cleric or divine caster NPC to adventure with us soon. Does anyone have any ideas for good feats to replace arcane disciple? I was going to take it at level 6 btw.
#25 innabinder Nov 08, 2008 20:28:05	At 6th level I rather like Magic Sensitive.
#26 bsauey Nov 08, 2008 21:39:19	I think I might take Metamagic School Focus instead. I took the elven racial substitution level from Races of the Wild, so does that make me a specialist by being a generalist wizard? It replaces my ability to specialize so wouldn't that be right?
#27 pithica Nov 09, 2008 8:20:30	Arcane disciple doesn't give you an extra spell slot. Elven Racial Sub isn't the same thing as Specialist wizard. It replaces your ability to specialize. It doesn't qualify you for Metamagic School Focus. That's okay though, just take Spell Focus-X to qualify.
#28 emansdrawkcab Nov 09, 2008 13:03:18	What about something like Rogue 5/Wizard 5/Nightsong Infiltrator 5/Spellwarp Sniper 5 with esentially the same feats? I think that if she plans on being a sneaky rogue-like magic user, it would be more beneficial to use Warlock instead of Wizard. The flavor is all there, and Invocations are a great boon to Rogues, not to mention, being caster level 10 in the end is a waste of 10 class levels. Also, with the Blend into Shadows feat a Warlock effectively gets Hide in Plain Sight at level 1.