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Help with Wands

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
bloodofgods
Mar 15, 2009 1:05:39 Okay, the problem I am having is that my character in a campaign I am running have just discovered that you can use wands that cast swift action spells as a swift action (the rules compendium states so)

So, one of my characters has made a wand of Wraithstrike (this spell allows all melee attack to go off as TOUCH ATTACKS for 1 round)
Now the main problem I have with this is, give this to a rogue, he never misses, give this to a fighter, he never misses.

We're playing in the age of worms campaign and EVERYTHING in these magazines are far too easy to kill when tactics like this exist.

The other problem I am having is, I cannot give the enemies wands like this because then THEY would NEVER EVER MISS, and the group would be dead.

Now if someone does not have quick draw we can assume it takes a move action to draw a wand, this takes a bit of the problem away, but there is an item that allows you to put a wand into your weapon slot, making it so your always "HOLDING" the wand.

This means swift action per round and boom, any enemy is dead.

Does anyone have any suggestion on how to fix this without just taking away the item slot that allows you to "hold" wand, or just taking away all the TONS of broken spells that are swift casts?
#2
sofawall
Mar 15, 2009 1:09:36 Better touch ACs? Like Dodge and high dex and whatnot.
#3
bloodofgods
Mar 15, 2009 1:24:32
Better touch ACs? Like Dodge and high dex and whatnot.

That is not a solution.

Assume you character has epic dexterity and Deflection bonuses and Dexterity

You can take this wand at 7th level At THE LATEST

lest assume +5 deflection ring (impossible at this level)
And 24 dexterity (again very hard)
monks belt for wisdom to armor class
+4 dodge bonus
this is a touch armor class of 30-32, at the money necessary to do this is around a level 13-17 character
at that level, a fighter has an attack of 20-30...

Meaning that they hit on a average roll of 10, or in the worse case, they hit on a roll of 2.

It seems like the spell wraithstrike in general is just too powerful and quite broken.

Also what were they thinking when they ruled that casting a swift action spell from a wand IS A SWIFT ACTION

However it is not just wriathstrike I'm concerned about, there are many other swift actions spells that are just too powerful when put in a wand and given to a rogue....

If a rogue gets a jump on a character, it becomes the end of the fight before it begins.

The rogue in our campaign (level 6) is 20d6+20 per round when using this tactic... at level 6 that is an average of 80 damage per round (and he has never missed thus far)

True the wand is expensive, but when your this broken does it really matter?
#4
keithio
Mar 15, 2009 1:27:57 Yes, wraithstrike is broken.

Scintillating Scales from SPC is nice for boosting touch AC.

Lesser Globe of invulnerability, flying enemies.

Or, take the 0 AC route and go for enemies who use shocktrooper.

The rogue definately doesn't do that much damage against enemies he can't sneak attack.
#5
CantripN
Mar 15, 2009 1:35:38 Sunder? As an NPC, that's what I'd do.
#6
bloodofgods
Mar 15, 2009 1:37:00
Sunder? As an NPC, that's what I'd do.

Rogue goes first, nothing ever gets to sunder

And it it does sunder, so what? pull out dagger or any of the other 10 weapons he has and it begins again!

Would it just be a better idea to get rid of wraithstrike?
#7
CantripN
Mar 15, 2009 1:40:36 The spell is a tad too powerful, 'tis true. Up to you.

Given 2 foes, even, Sunder works. Assuming some pawns, it's even better. I doubt he'd risk his 1,500 gp wands.

And there's always Miss Chances and Concealment, which might well prevent the SA, even if you hit.

Karmic Strike / Robilar's Gambit? Standstill? Solid Fog? Summon Monster? Slow?
#8
bloodofgods
Mar 15, 2009 1:47:26
The spell is a tad too powerful, 'tis true. Up to you.

Given 2 foes, even, Sunder works. Assuming some pawns, it's even better. I doubt he'd risk his 1,500 gp wands.

And there's always Miss Chances and Concealment, which might well prevent the SA, even if you hit.

Karmic Strike / Robilar's Gambit? Standstill? Solid Fog? Summon Monster? Slow?

It is true that the spell displacement negates sneak attack

and im not just worried about sneak attacking rogues

Im thinking along the lines of a barbarian taking power attack with a two handed weapon, if he thinks he wil always hit (he usually will) then he will take massive penatlies to his power attack, and then boom, now hes hitting for 2d6+60 per hit (assuming 4 times strength bonus from two weapon fighting and frenzied beserker ability)

what have you done in your games to negate this kind of thing from happening
#9
keithio
Mar 15, 2009 2:03:44
what have you done in your games to negate this kind of thing from happening

Banned wraithstrike, or when the players ***** about it TPK them with an optimized dragon (Guess who else gets wraithstrike, scintilating scales etc etc).
#10
reis
Mar 15, 2009 2:05:01 ban wraithstrike or house rule it to be a standard action is what i did in my game.
#11
bloodofgods
Mar 15, 2009 2:08:24
Banned wraithstrike, or when the players ***** about it TPK them with an optimized dragon (Guess who else gets wraithstrike, scintilating scales etc etc).

Can you think of any other spells that can be cast from a wand that are similar in brokenness as wraithstrike?
#12
reis
Mar 15, 2009 2:13:21 wraithstrike is a pretty unique example however im sure your players will find some other ones to abuse

but also i would like to point out that part of your problem is that you are running a boxed adventure (age of worms) as-is with at least partially optimized PC's. When you want to run a boxed adventure with optimized PC's, in order to make it challenging you need to go through the adventure beforehand and re-tailor each encounter with optimized opponents and evaluate the challenge rating critically saying "how hard will this encounter actually be for this party?". The challenge ratings in the adventure and in the various monster entries are a rough guide at best when dealing with optimized PC's.
#13
keithio
Mar 15, 2009 2:13:56 To be honest though I don't think it's really a problem, all players in the group sound like they're having fun. You just need to realize that monsters with low touch AC are actually less of a challenge for your group and give them less treasure & exp from those encounters, or artificially beef up those monsters without giving the players any extra reward.

And yes, there are plenty of broken spells out there. Hunter's Eye is another swift action 1 round spell, this one is hidden away in PHB2 as a 2nd level ranger spell, gives (CL/3)d6 sneak attack. There are just too many good spells out there to list.

Another important thing to realize is that swift actions are actions, and these wands use that action. It's just so visible because they were wasting it before. There are other nice ways to use swift actions (Belt of Battle etc etc). It's when you persist these short duration buffs that they become intolerably nasty.

As a DM, if you know your players like to optimize, make them run every single PRC, spell or feat they plan on taking by you. Some of them need to be shot down, and it's better to do it before they use it than after.
#14
jameswilliamogle
Mar 15, 2009 8:44:35 I'd ban Wraithstrike. Use the argument that "if you guys use it, then my guys use it, and you really don't want that..." And then, if they continue, TPK. Tell them they can switch it for a different spell up to L2 at no cost.

I'm playing in a Pathfinder AP now, myself, as a Sorcerer (Arcane Bloodline), and even giving the Quasit familiar a wand of True Strike and a spell-storing dagger is proving a bit too strong. Particularly when I slow everyone, and then the quasit can automatically effect whoever saves with a Blindness...
#15
phaedrusxy
Mar 15, 2009 11:58:26
Im thinking along the lines of a barbarian taking power attack with a two handed weapon, if he thinks he wil always hit (he usually will) then he will take massive penatlies to his power attack, and then boom, now hes hitting for 2d6+60 per hit (assuming 4 times strength bonus from two weapon fighting and frenzied beserker ability)

1) Most barbarians couldn't make the DC 20 UMD check to activate it.
2) You can't use magic items like this at all while raging.

But yeah, it's powerful, and probably one of the most commonly banned spells. It's not as game breaking as some of the higher level spells, for sure, but it's also a lot lower level, which means it comes into the game much sooner than crazy stuff like Shapechange.
#16
casualgatherer
Mar 15, 2009 15:10:01 if you are having lots of trouble with just this one spell, ban it. if you are really unwilling to do that, just throw a couple sunderers in the mix. They won't wanna risk losing an investment that big after it blows up in their hands once. If you are unwilling to do either of these two things, DM fiat would work, but shouldn't happen.
#17
true_shinken
Mar 15, 2009 18:18:00
Rogue goes first, nothing ever gets to sunder

And it it does sunder, so what? pull out dagger or any of the other 10 weapons he has and it begins again!

Would it just be a better idea to get rid of wraithstrike?

He actually meant sunder the wand.

In my campaign I play with the defense bonus alternative from Unearthed Arcana. This makes touch attacks a lot less deadly.
#18
arogenith
Mar 15, 2009 21:45:53 fighter + spiked chain +improved trip. Throw something with reach at them for godsakes!! Trip rogue, next turn sunder wand then move 5 ft away if he can get up without AoOs or give him some crusader to get him thicket of blades.

Use blasters and rangers. He can't wraithstrike you if he can't hit you. If you're sad that you can't use as many fighters, use something with lots of HP, barbarians = improved uncanny dodge + Xd12 hp +con mod times X. 16 con = 15 hp/level and "oh, yeah, he rolled max hp" though the PCs don't need to know. Hell, level 10 barb +20 nat con, in rage = 20hp/level =200 hp, and that rogue better hope he can take a hit then. Barb's wiz buddy keeps dropping truestrike's on him with his maxed power attack.....maybe just bull rush him off a cliff. Tons of possibilities, do them all
#19
zenogu
Mar 15, 2009 22:32:45
fighter + spiked chain +improved trip. Throw something with reach at them for godsakes!! Trip rogue, next turn sunder wand then move 5 ft away if he can get up without AoOs or give him some crusader to get him thicket of blades.

Use blasters and rangers. He can't wraithstrike you if he can't hit you. If you're sad that you can't use as many fighters, use something with lots of HP, barbarians = improved uncanny dodge + Xd12 hp +con mod times X. 16 con = 15 hp/level and "oh, yeah, he rolled max hp" though the PCs don't need to know. Hell, level 10 barb +20 nat con, in rage = 20hp/level =200 hp, and that rogue better hope he can take a hit then. Barb's wiz buddy keeps dropping truestrike's on him with his maxed power attack.....maybe just bull rush him off a cliff. Tons of possibilities, do them all

Dropping true strike on him? A personal spell?

Sundering is a great way to neutralize wands. If it is not an option, disarming them can be, and if you have a hand open (like a few fencers) you get to use it against them!
If jumping into melee isn't an option, ranged sunder/disarm exist, as well as Telekinesis
#20
arogenith
Mar 15, 2009 22:42:43 Wasn't there a feat, or one of Knight of the Weave's abilities that let you cast personal spells on others? And multiple others at that, or am I loosing it here. If not true strike, there are tons of other things you could do, I was just giving an example of giving him a large bonus to hit so he can power attack for oh so much more. Also, aren't there items of true strike, like a ring or something? I remember seeing one when I still owned the MIC
#21
dr_rocktopus
Mar 16, 2009 3:18:33 In situations like this, I reach for antimagic fields and warblades or crusaders. The vast majority of their abilities are (ex) not (su)\(sp) so you might be able to just leave the party at enough of a disadvantage for one fight that they stop relying on wands of wraithstrike. Also, golems are a great answer to parties that rely on rogues as their primary strikers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bloodofgods Mar 15, 2009 1:05:39	Okay, the problem I am having is that my character in a campaign I am running have just discovered that you can use wands that cast swift action spells as a swift action (the rules compendium states so) So, one of my characters has made a wand of Wraithstrike (this spell allows all melee attack to go off as TOUCH ATTACKS for 1 round) Now the main problem I have with this is, give this to a rogue, he never misses, give this to a fighter, he never misses. We're playing in the age of worms campaign and EVERYTHING in these magazines are far too easy to kill when tactics like this exist. The other problem I am having is, I cannot give the enemies wands like this because then THEY would NEVER EVER MISS, and the group would be dead. Now if someone does not have quick draw we can assume it takes a move action to draw a wand, this takes a bit of the problem away, but there is an item that allows you to put a wand into your weapon slot, making it so your always "HOLDING" the wand. This means swift action per round and boom, any enemy is dead. Does anyone have any suggestion on how to fix this without just taking away the item slot that allows you to "hold" wand, or just taking away all the TONS of broken spells that are swift casts?
#2 sofawall Mar 15, 2009 1:09:36	Better touch ACs? Like Dodge and high dex and whatnot.
#3 bloodofgods Mar 15, 2009 1:24:32	Better touch ACs? Like Dodge and high dex and whatnot. That is not a solution. Assume you character has epic dexterity and Deflection bonuses and Dexterity You can take this wand at 7th level At THE LATEST lest assume +5 deflection ring (impossible at this level) And 24 dexterity (again very hard) monks belt for wisdom to armor class +4 dodge bonus this is a touch armor class of 30-32, at the money necessary to do this is around a level 13-17 character at that level, a fighter has an attack of 20-30... Meaning that they hit on a average roll of 10, or in the worse case, they hit on a roll of 2. It seems like the spell wraithstrike in general is just too powerful and quite broken. Also what were they thinking when they ruled that casting a swift action spell from a wand IS A SWIFT ACTION However it is not just wriathstrike I'm concerned about, there are many other swift actions spells that are just too powerful when put in a wand and given to a rogue.... If a rogue gets a jump on a character, it becomes the end of the fight before it begins. The rogue in our campaign (level 6) is 20d6+20 per round when using this tactic... at level 6 that is an average of 80 damage per round (and he has never missed thus far) True the wand is expensive, but when your this broken does it really matter?
#4 keithio Mar 15, 2009 1:27:57	Yes, wraithstrike is broken. Scintillating Scales from SPC is nice for boosting touch AC. Lesser Globe of invulnerability, flying enemies. Or, take the 0 AC route and go for enemies who use shocktrooper. The rogue definately doesn't do that much damage against enemies he can't sneak attack.
#5 CantripN Mar 15, 2009 1:35:38	Sunder? As an NPC, that's what I'd do.
#6 bloodofgods Mar 15, 2009 1:37:00	Sunder? As an NPC, that's what I'd do. Rogue goes first, nothing ever gets to sunder And it it does sunder, so what? pull out dagger or any of the other 10 weapons he has and it begins again! Would it just be a better idea to get rid of wraithstrike?
#7 CantripN Mar 15, 2009 1:40:36	The spell is a tad too powerful, 'tis true. Up to you. Given 2 foes, even, Sunder works. Assuming some pawns, it's even better. I doubt he'd risk his 1,500 gp wands. And there's always Miss Chances and Concealment, which might well prevent the SA, even if you hit. Karmic Strike / Robilar's Gambit? Standstill? Solid Fog? Summon Monster? Slow?
#8 bloodofgods Mar 15, 2009 1:47:26	The spell is a tad too powerful, 'tis true. Up to you. Given 2 foes, even, Sunder works. Assuming some pawns, it's even better. I doubt he'd risk his 1,500 gp wands. And there's always Miss Chances and Concealment, which might well prevent the SA, even if you hit. Karmic Strike / Robilar's Gambit? Standstill? Solid Fog? Summon Monster? Slow? It is true that the spell displacement negates sneak attack and im not just worried about sneak attacking rogues Im thinking along the lines of a barbarian taking power attack with a two handed weapon, if he thinks he wil always hit (he usually will) then he will take massive penatlies to his power attack, and then boom, now hes hitting for 2d6+60 per hit (assuming 4 times strength bonus from two weapon fighting and frenzied beserker ability) what have you done in your games to negate this kind of thing from happening
#9 keithio Mar 15, 2009 2:03:44	what have you done in your games to negate this kind of thing from happening Banned wraithstrike, or when the players ***** about it TPK them with an optimized dragon (Guess who else gets wraithstrike, scintilating scales etc etc).
#10 reis Mar 15, 2009 2:05:01	ban wraithstrike or house rule it to be a standard action is what i did in my game.
#11 bloodofgods Mar 15, 2009 2:08:24	Banned wraithstrike, or when the players ***** about it TPK them with an optimized dragon (Guess who else gets wraithstrike, scintilating scales etc etc). Can you think of any other spells that can be cast from a wand that are similar in brokenness as wraithstrike?
#12 reis Mar 15, 2009 2:13:21	wraithstrike is a pretty unique example however im sure your players will find some other ones to abuse but also i would like to point out that part of your problem is that you are running a boxed adventure (age of worms) as-is with at least partially optimized PC's. When you want to run a boxed adventure with optimized PC's, in order to make it challenging you need to go through the adventure beforehand and re-tailor each encounter with optimized opponents and evaluate the challenge rating critically saying "how hard will this encounter actually be for this party?". The challenge ratings in the adventure and in the various monster entries are a rough guide at best when dealing with optimized PC's.
#13 keithio Mar 15, 2009 2:13:56	To be honest though I don't think it's really a problem, all players in the group sound like they're having fun. You just need to realize that monsters with low touch AC are actually less of a challenge for your group and give them less treasure & exp from those encounters, or artificially beef up those monsters without giving the players any extra reward. And yes, there are plenty of broken spells out there. Hunter's Eye is another swift action 1 round spell, this one is hidden away in PHB2 as a 2nd level ranger spell, gives (CL/3)d6 sneak attack. There are just too many good spells out there to list. Another important thing to realize is that swift actions are actions, and these wands use that action. It's just so visible because they were wasting it before. There are other nice ways to use swift actions (Belt of Battle etc etc). It's when you persist these short duration buffs that they become intolerably nasty. As a DM, if you know your players like to optimize, make them run every single PRC, spell or feat they plan on taking by you. Some of them need to be shot down, and it's better to do it before they use it than after.
#14 jameswilliamogle Mar 15, 2009 8:44:35	I'd ban Wraithstrike. Use the argument that "if you guys use it, then my guys use it, and you really don't want that..." And then, if they continue, TPK. Tell them they can switch it for a different spell up to L2 at no cost. I'm playing in a Pathfinder AP now, myself, as a Sorcerer (Arcane Bloodline), and even giving the Quasit familiar a wand of True Strike and a spell-storing dagger is proving a bit too strong. Particularly when I slow everyone, and then the quasit can automatically effect whoever saves with a Blindness...
#15 phaedrusxy Mar 15, 2009 11:58:26	Im thinking along the lines of a barbarian taking power attack with a two handed weapon, if he thinks he wil always hit (he usually will) then he will take massive penatlies to his power attack, and then boom, now hes hitting for 2d6+60 per hit (assuming 4 times strength bonus from two weapon fighting and frenzied beserker ability) 1) Most barbarians couldn't make the DC 20 UMD check to activate it. 2) You can't use magic items like this at all while raging. But yeah, it's powerful, and probably one of the most commonly banned spells. It's not as game breaking as some of the higher level spells, for sure, but it's also a lot lower level, which means it comes into the game much sooner than crazy stuff like Shapechange.
#16 casualgatherer Mar 15, 2009 15:10:01	if you are having lots of trouble with just this one spell, ban it. if you are really unwilling to do that, just throw a couple sunderers in the mix. They won't wanna risk losing an investment that big after it blows up in their hands once. If you are unwilling to do either of these two things, DM fiat would work, but shouldn't happen.
#17 true_shinken Mar 15, 2009 18:18:00	Rogue goes first, nothing ever gets to sunder And it it does sunder, so what? pull out dagger or any of the other 10 weapons he has and it begins again! Would it just be a better idea to get rid of wraithstrike? He actually meant sunder the wand. In my campaign I play with the defense bonus alternative from Unearthed Arcana. This makes touch attacks a lot less deadly.
#18 arogenith Mar 15, 2009 21:45:53	fighter + spiked chain +improved trip. Throw something with reach at them for godsakes!! Trip rogue, next turn sunder wand then move 5 ft away if he can get up without AoOs or give him some crusader to get him thicket of blades. Use blasters and rangers. He can't wraithstrike you if he can't hit you. If you're sad that you can't use as many fighters, use something with lots of HP, barbarians = improved uncanny dodge + Xd12 hp +con mod times X. 16 con = 15 hp/level and "oh, yeah, he rolled max hp" though the PCs don't need to know. Hell, level 10 barb +20 nat con, in rage = 20hp/level =200 hp, and that rogue better hope he can take a hit then. Barb's wiz buddy keeps dropping truestrike's on him with his maxed power attack.....maybe just bull rush him off a cliff. Tons of possibilities, do them all
#19 zenogu Mar 15, 2009 22:32:45	fighter + spiked chain +improved trip. Throw something with reach at them for godsakes!! Trip rogue, next turn sunder wand then move 5 ft away if he can get up without AoOs or give him some crusader to get him thicket of blades. Use blasters and rangers. He can't wraithstrike you if he can't hit you. If you're sad that you can't use as many fighters, use something with lots of HP, barbarians = improved uncanny dodge + Xd12 hp +con mod times X. 16 con = 15 hp/level and "oh, yeah, he rolled max hp" though the PCs don't need to know. Hell, level 10 barb +20 nat con, in rage = 20hp/level =200 hp, and that rogue better hope he can take a hit then. Barb's wiz buddy keeps dropping truestrike's on him with his maxed power attack.....maybe just bull rush him off a cliff. Tons of possibilities, do them all Dropping true strike on him? A personal spell? Sundering is a great way to neutralize wands. If it is not an option, disarming them can be, and if you have a hand open (like a few fencers) you get to use it against them! If jumping into melee isn't an option, ranged sunder/disarm exist, as well as Telekinesis
#20 arogenith Mar 15, 2009 22:42:43	Wasn't there a feat, or one of Knight of the Weave's abilities that let you cast personal spells on others? And multiple others at that, or am I loosing it here. If not true strike, there are tons of other things you could do, I was just giving an example of giving him a large bonus to hit so he can power attack for oh so much more. Also, aren't there items of true strike, like a ring or something? I remember seeing one when I still owned the MIC
#21 dr_rocktopus Mar 16, 2009 3:18:33	In situations like this, I reach for antimagic fields and warblades or crusaders. The vast majority of their abilities are (ex) not (su)\(sp) so you might be able to just leave the party at enough of a disadvantage for one fight that they stop relying on wands of wraithstrike. Also, golems are a great answer to parties that rely on rogues as their primary strikers.