Hengeyokai (Sparrow) Psion + ? Gestalt - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Hengeyokai (Sparrow) Psion + ? Gestalt

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
som-pee-ta-lay
Jun 16, 2009 11:11:33 I played a Hengeyokai Psion in a previous campaign and thought perhaps to do it again in an upcoming gestalt campaign, but only improving upon it with another gestalt class.

First the Hengeyokai, coming from Oriental Adventures. With the update to 3.5 they dropped the shapechanger subtype which removed the +1 LA, which is great for full manifesting.

Picking the Sparrow version of the race, my character was pretty much perpetually in that form as the fine size gives tremendous benefits. The result is an immediate leap up to AC 24 (+8 due to size, +6 due to a dex of 23). The bird of course also flies at 50' (average). Add in that hiding bonuses double due to size, giving a +16 to hide checks, making me almost invisible (along with a +10 bonus to disguise as a bird) either by hiding during move actions or just arguing "I'm just a bird!" to the DM. So flying and near invisibility at level 1... check!

Also, my ranged attack is great. I get +6 from dex, +8 from size, and a lot of my powers are ranged touch attacks. So +14 to hit range touch at level 1... check!

Next, the whole party is taking Vow of Poverty as a campaign theme. Works great for this little guy. He can't really use much in the way of magic items as is in bird form. Now at first level his AC is 28.

For the campaign the GM is giving the Sacred Vow (prerequisite for VoP) to everyone for free. Everyone's first level feat is being taken up by VoP.

Onto the build:

Stats - I'm thinking of doing Ardent as the other class, so wisdom is important. We are using 30 pt buy with slightly modified Pathfinder rules. It comes out as:

Str 7, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 16 Cha 7

In bird form I have stats of Str 1, Dex 23, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 7

We are using Pathfinder rules for a lot of things, such as ability score increase, feat progression, etc.

Psion 1/Ardent 1 [P. Bonus] Speed of Thought, [Flaw] Improved Flight [Mantles] Freedom and Life
Psion 2/Ardent 2 [Exalted] Nymph's kiss, [Mantle] Planes
Psion 3/Ardent 3 [Feat] Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct)
Psion 4/Ardent 4 [Exalted]
Psion 5/Ardent 5 [Feat] , [P. Bonus] Psycrystal Affinity, [Mantle] Magic
Psion 6/Ardent 6 [Exalted]
Psion 7/Ardent 7 [Feat] Quicken Power
Psion 8/Ardent 8 [Exalted]
Psion 9/Ardent 9 [Feat]
Psion 10/Ardent 10 [Exalted] , [P. Bonus] , [Mantle] Fate
Psion 11/Ardent 11 [Feat]
Psion 12/Ardent 12 [Exalted]
Psion 13/Ardent 13 [Feat]
Psion 14/Ardent 14 [Exalted]
Psion 15/Ardent 15 [Feat] , [P. Bonus] , [Mantle]
Psion 16/Ardent 16 [Exalted]
Psion 17/Ardent 17 [Feat]
Psion 18/Ardent 18 [Exalted]
Psion 19/Ardent 19 [Feat]
Psion 20/Ardent 20 [Exalted]

That's where I'm at now with feat selection.

So I'm exploring the Ardent because I wanted to stick with another Psionic class since the Power Points from both classes get dumped into one pool. While I am taking a slight hit with the wisdom due to being Hengeyokai, in the end I'm essentially doubling my power points due to the gestalting as Ardent and Psion get the same progression in power points.

I also like the mantle powers. I prefer things that tend to be "always on" and if I avoid using things that need to expend psionic focus it means I'll have a base flight speed of 70' (50 normal + Speed of thought + Freedom Mantle) and with the improved flight I'll be able to hover.

Powers

Level 1 - Dimension Hop, Entangling Ectoplasm, Crystal Shard, Vigor, Astral Traveler, Astral Construct, Touch of Health
Level 2 - Hustle, Dampen Power, Energy Stun, From the Brink
Level 3 - Dispell Psionics, Astral Caravan,
Level 4 - Dismissal Psionic, Wall of Ectoplasm, Correspond
Level 5 - Teleport Psionic, True Seeing, Plane Shift,
Level 6 - Remote Viewing, Null Psionic Field
Level 7 - Ethereal Jaunt, Fate of One
Level 8
Level 9

That is where I'm at with powers, I still have plenty of slots open.

I cant' stand Save or Die/Save for Suck powers. The DM always seems to roll high when I cast my awesome power an then they make their save. I prefer stuff that just work, pretty much no matter what.

I'm looking closely at a lot of powers that are immediate or swift actions, since ultimately it's the actions which are the choke point in the game. If I can react and magnify what I can do in a round then I'll be happy.

In the campaign the non-transparent rules will be used for Magic and Psionics, so taking the Magic Mantle (which merges the two together again) is essential.

I haven't chosen a discipline yet. Each one has one power that I really want and the rest are just ok (Metamorphosis, Energy Missile, Dimension Swap, Clairvoyant Sense). Shaper and Telepath don't seem worth it. I'll get Astral Construct at 3rd level with a feat, but all of the Telepath stuff requires saves which I want to avoid.

Metamorphosis would be fun, but my role is more to be the "spell caster" in the group. There are going to be gestalt druids, and other fighters can wade into close combat. I'm going more for the "controller" role.

Energy Missile would be a lot of fun. This tiny little bird does these strafing runs, mowing down the baddies that are swarming the party.

Dimension Swap would also be a lot of fun in a controller type of role. I can move forward with my 70' move till I'm just 5' away from target, then dimension swap the gestalted melee player next to the target who can then just 5 foot step in and do full melee. If someone is in trouble I can shift people about. I can do the chess piece thing which would be a lot of fun.

Clairvoyant Sense would be the other angle that would be great. Not only am I flying about, nearly invisible but I'm just looking about spying. Gathering tactical information is a lot of fun for me and this just makes more more potent. I'm just not sure if my GM will get an aneurysm from me.

I build my characters with the first half of progression in mind. I have no idea if the campaign will last past 10th level, so I'm not as much worried by that level of play. I want my bennies early, be awesome early and enjoy the ride, not spend a huge amount of time investing and waiting for a payoff.

So is Psion/Ardent the way to go?

I could go Wilder, but I take a hit on power points and powers, plus I just kind of dislike the gambling aspect. I'm all about gathering in more certainty into the results.

Wu Jen would synergize with intelligence, but I'm not really hurting for ability points since I can dump str, dex, cha, because of the bird form. I'd be giving up power points, which was an issue when I played the non-gestalted version before.

Suggestions on how to massage this build to be even better?

Is there another combination with Psion that is even more overpowered?

How do I make the table full of powergamers bow before me in my awesomeness?
#2
bronzebeard
Jun 16, 2009 15:53:04 I don't know what's so nifty 'bout ardent but I think that in a gestalt thing with psion I would go with Psion/Pshychic warrior. You guessed it - feats! Feato'gasms!

Almost everytime I play a caster I'm in dire starving for feats. Sometimes I even take flaws.
#3
phoenix00
Jun 16, 2009 19:48:44 This requires some house ruling. But see if you can get Psychic Rogue approved, and if your dm will allow you to trade out sneak attack for feats (similar to the feat rogue variant in UA). Sure you will have more pp with an ardent, but now you will have feats and skills aplenty as well as int based in both classes.
#4
Balthanon
Jun 16, 2009 19:53:44 You are sacrificing one of the primary benefits of playing gestalt with psion/ardent combination-- namely the ability to have a better base attack bonus (useful for ranged touch, which most non-save or suck spells entail), better saves (you only have one, which is horrible for gestalt), and better hit dice.

While you may be able to hide from opponents or disguise yourself as a bird, you will be caught in area effect spells or hit by the occassional enemy who can see through your defenses.

Psychic Warrior followed up by War Mind would resolve a lot of those issues-- another option might be trying monk with the Carmendine Monk feat to use your Intelligence to AC, plus pick up all good saves and a d8 hit die (admittedly not much better than d6). You could pick up Fist of Zuoken after that or just move into Ardent after two levels. It will even go well with the eastern flavor of your hengeyokai race.

(If this is the same game I've been seeing a lot of requests for, I believe you also have a free +1 LA, don't you? It might be worth trying to find a decent +1 template to add as well, maybe Dark for the hide bonuses and Hide in Plain Sight.)
#5
awaken_D_M_golem
Jun 19, 2009 15:22:51 Rogue , Feat Rogue or Psi-Rogue 1 , as Ph00 suggested,
gets a 1 level offset between Psion and the other side.
That'll get you BAB +19. Good enough.

Ardent begs for 3 more levels of anything else, with Practiced Manifester, by itself.
But hold on, you already have a ML from the Psion.
Ardent will give you "what" then ??
It's up to you and your DM.

Ardent got two upgrades, in wizards.com Mind's Eye.
Both are very worth it.
Dominant Ideal helps out the metapsionics.
Substitute Powers helps out the power selection.

[exalted] feats from VoP will be filled up from BoEx (i've forgotten the X right at this moment)
or whatever it is that Pathfinder has.

bonus feat every other level, umm ... Big Guy Is With Me !!
And a small way around VoP.

Normally I'd recommend a psi recharge set-up, but dang, you have enough pp.

Trap+Skill class 1 / Psy War 2 / Something 1 or more depending on DM / Ardent 11+
on that side, not sure what order would work.

Fun stuff.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 som-pee-ta-lay Jun 16, 2009 11:11:33	I played a Hengeyokai Psion in a previous campaign and thought perhaps to do it again in an upcoming gestalt campaign, but only improving upon it with another gestalt class. First the Hengeyokai, coming from Oriental Adventures. With the update to 3.5 they dropped the shapechanger subtype which removed the +1 LA, which is great for full manifesting. Picking the Sparrow version of the race, my character was pretty much perpetually in that form as the fine size gives tremendous benefits. The result is an immediate leap up to AC 24 (+8 due to size, +6 due to a dex of 23). The bird of course also flies at 50' (average). Add in that hiding bonuses double due to size, giving a +16 to hide checks, making me almost invisible (along with a +10 bonus to disguise as a bird) either by hiding during move actions or just arguing "I'm just a bird!" to the DM. So flying and near invisibility at level 1... check! Also, my ranged attack is great. I get +6 from dex, +8 from size, and a lot of my powers are ranged touch attacks. So +14 to hit range touch at level 1... check! Next, the whole party is taking Vow of Poverty as a campaign theme. Works great for this little guy. He can't really use much in the way of magic items as is in bird form. Now at first level his AC is 28. For the campaign the GM is giving the Sacred Vow (prerequisite for VoP) to everyone for free. Everyone's first level feat is being taken up by VoP. Onto the build: Stats - I'm thinking of doing Ardent as the other class, so wisdom is important. We are using 30 pt buy with slightly modified Pathfinder rules. It comes out as: Str 7, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 16 Cha 7 In bird form I have stats of Str 1, Dex 23, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 7 We are using Pathfinder rules for a lot of things, such as ability score increase, feat progression, etc. Psion 1/Ardent 1 [P. Bonus] Speed of Thought, [Flaw] Improved Flight [Mantles] Freedom and Life Psion 2/Ardent 2 [Exalted] Nymph's kiss, [Mantle] Planes Psion 3/Ardent 3 [Feat] Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct) Psion 4/Ardent 4 [Exalted] Psion 5/Ardent 5 [Feat] , [P. Bonus] Psycrystal Affinity, [Mantle] Magic Psion 6/Ardent 6 [Exalted] Psion 7/Ardent 7 [Feat] Quicken Power Psion 8/Ardent 8 [Exalted] Psion 9/Ardent 9 [Feat] Psion 10/Ardent 10 [Exalted] , [P. Bonus] , [Mantle] Fate Psion 11/Ardent 11 [Feat] Psion 12/Ardent 12 [Exalted] Psion 13/Ardent 13 [Feat] Psion 14/Ardent 14 [Exalted] Psion 15/Ardent 15 [Feat] , [P. Bonus] , [Mantle] Psion 16/Ardent 16 [Exalted] Psion 17/Ardent 17 [Feat] Psion 18/Ardent 18 [Exalted] Psion 19/Ardent 19 [Feat] Psion 20/Ardent 20 [Exalted] That's where I'm at now with feat selection. So I'm exploring the Ardent because I wanted to stick with another Psionic class since the Power Points from both classes get dumped into one pool. While I am taking a slight hit with the wisdom due to being Hengeyokai, in the end I'm essentially doubling my power points due to the gestalting as Ardent and Psion get the same progression in power points. I also like the mantle powers. I prefer things that tend to be "always on" and if I avoid using things that need to expend psionic focus it means I'll have a base flight speed of 70' (50 normal + Speed of thought + Freedom Mantle) and with the improved flight I'll be able to hover. Powers Level 1 - Dimension Hop, Entangling Ectoplasm, Crystal Shard, Vigor, Astral Traveler, Astral Construct, Touch of Health Level 2 - Hustle, Dampen Power, Energy Stun, From the Brink Level 3 - Dispell Psionics, Astral Caravan, Level 4 - Dismissal Psionic, Wall of Ectoplasm, Correspond Level 5 - Teleport Psionic, True Seeing, Plane Shift, Level 6 - Remote Viewing, Null Psionic Field Level 7 - Ethereal Jaunt, Fate of One Level 8 Level 9 That is where I'm at with powers, I still have plenty of slots open. I cant' stand Save or Die/Save for Suck powers. The DM always seems to roll high when I cast my awesome power an then they make their save. I prefer stuff that just work, pretty much no matter what. I'm looking closely at a lot of powers that are immediate or swift actions, since ultimately it's the actions which are the choke point in the game. If I can react and magnify what I can do in a round then I'll be happy. In the campaign the non-transparent rules will be used for Magic and Psionics, so taking the Magic Mantle (which merges the two together again) is essential. I haven't chosen a discipline yet. Each one has one power that I really want and the rest are just ok (Metamorphosis, Energy Missile, Dimension Swap, Clairvoyant Sense). Shaper and Telepath don't seem worth it. I'll get Astral Construct at 3rd level with a feat, but all of the Telepath stuff requires saves which I want to avoid. Metamorphosis would be fun, but my role is more to be the "spell caster" in the group. There are going to be gestalt druids, and other fighters can wade into close combat. I'm going more for the "controller" role. Energy Missile would be a lot of fun. This tiny little bird does these strafing runs, mowing down the baddies that are swarming the party. Dimension Swap would also be a lot of fun in a controller type of role. I can move forward with my 70' move till I'm just 5' away from target, then dimension swap the gestalted melee player next to the target who can then just 5 foot step in and do full melee. If someone is in trouble I can shift people about. I can do the chess piece thing which would be a lot of fun. Clairvoyant Sense would be the other angle that would be great. Not only am I flying about, nearly invisible but I'm just looking about spying. Gathering tactical information is a lot of fun for me and this just makes more more potent. I'm just not sure if my GM will get an aneurysm from me. I build my characters with the first half of progression in mind. I have no idea if the campaign will last past 10th level, so I'm not as much worried by that level of play. I want my bennies early, be awesome early and enjoy the ride, not spend a huge amount of time investing and waiting for a payoff. So is Psion/Ardent the way to go? I could go Wilder, but I take a hit on power points and powers, plus I just kind of dislike the gambling aspect. I'm all about gathering in more certainty into the results. Wu Jen would synergize with intelligence, but I'm not really hurting for ability points since I can dump str, dex, cha, because of the bird form. I'd be giving up power points, which was an issue when I played the non-gestalted version before. Suggestions on how to massage this build to be even better? Is there another combination with Psion that is even more overpowered? How do I make the table full of powergamers bow before me in my awesomeness?
#2 bronzebeard Jun 16, 2009 15:53:04	I don't know what's so nifty 'bout ardent but I think that in a gestalt thing with psion I would go with Psion/Pshychic warrior. You guessed it - feats! Feato'gasms! Almost everytime I play a caster I'm in dire starving for feats. Sometimes I even take flaws.
#3 phoenix00 Jun 16, 2009 19:48:44	This requires some house ruling. But see if you can get Psychic Rogue approved, and if your dm will allow you to trade out sneak attack for feats (similar to the feat rogue variant in UA). Sure you will have more pp with an ardent, but now you will have feats and skills aplenty as well as int based in both classes.
#4 Balthanon Jun 16, 2009 19:53:44	You are sacrificing one of the primary benefits of playing gestalt with psion/ardent combination-- namely the ability to have a better base attack bonus (useful for ranged touch, which most non-save or suck spells entail), better saves (you only have one, which is horrible for gestalt), and better hit dice. While you may be able to hide from opponents or disguise yourself as a bird, you will be caught in area effect spells or hit by the occassional enemy who can see through your defenses. Psychic Warrior followed up by War Mind would resolve a lot of those issues-- another option might be trying monk with the Carmendine Monk feat to use your Intelligence to AC, plus pick up all good saves and a d8 hit die (admittedly not much better than d6). You could pick up Fist of Zuoken after that or just move into Ardent after two levels. It will even go well with the eastern flavor of your hengeyokai race. (If this is the same game I've been seeing a lot of requests for, I believe you also have a free +1 LA, don't you? It might be worth trying to find a decent +1 template to add as well, maybe Dark for the hide bonuses and Hide in Plain Sight.)
#5 awaken_D_M_golem Jun 19, 2009 15:22:51	Rogue , Feat Rogue or Psi-Rogue 1 , as Ph00 suggested, gets a 1 level offset between Psion and the other side. That'll get you BAB +19. Good enough. Ardent begs for 3 more levels of anything else, with Practiced Manifester, by itself. But hold on, you already have a ML from the Psion. Ardent will give you "what" then ?? It's up to you and your DM. Ardent got two upgrades, in wizards.com Mind's Eye. Both are very worth it. Dominant Ideal helps out the metapsionics. Substitute Powers helps out the power selection. [exalted] feats from VoP will be filled up from BoEx (i've forgotten the X right at this moment) or whatever it is that Pathfinder has. bonus feat every other level, umm ... Big Guy Is With Me !! And a small way around VoP. Normally I'd recommend a psi recharge set-up, but dang, you have enough pp. Trap+Skill class 1 / Psy War 2 / Something 1 or more depending on DM / Ardent 11+ on that side, not sure what order would work. Fun stuff.