Hidden Blade Skill trick versus Flick of the wrist - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Hidden Blade Skill trick versus Flick of the wrist

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
shorrhyyn
Dec 30, 2008 20:28:26 I am making a rogue/assassin build with my newest character. He will have several hidden blades (from complete scoundrel) as well as multiple concealed daggers all across his body. I was wondering if my interpretations of the skill trick and feat are correct.

Hidden Blade- After you have used the sleight of hand skill to successfully conceal a weapon, you can draw that weapon as a move action instead of a standard action. An opponent that was unaware of the concealed weapon is treated as flat footed against the first attack you make in that turn.

Flick of the Wrist- If you draw a light weapon and make a melee attack with it in the same round, you catch your opponent flat-footed (for the purpose of this attack only). You may use this feat only once per round and once per opponent during any single combat encounter.

It sounds to me that the only difference is that in hidden blade the weapon must be concealed, and in flick of the wrist you can draw a light weapon as a free action with quick draw. Am I interpreting that right? If that is the case, then would it make sense for a character with concealed weapons to take only hidden blade and find another good feat?

I'm also looking for a good rogue/assassin level progression, with possibly another class mixed into that. If anyone has ideas for those, or a good feat that I should incorporate into such a character, that would also be great.
#2
NiteCyper
Dec 30, 2008 21:36:04 Errata: You may use Flick of the Wrist once per combat encounter.
#3
shorrhyyn
Dec 30, 2008 21:43:02 Ok, so would it be better to just get the hidden blade skill trick? Is it worth taking up a feat for a rogue to get flick of the wrist?
#4
NiteCyper
Dec 30, 2008 21:49:02 It depends what build you're going for. It's always good to have more open feat slots.

Here's a useful Sleight of hand use as mentioned in some book that I only printed this text from:
You must be armed with a dagger, have the Quick Draw feat, and must be holding nothing in your off hand. Fight the same foe for at least 2 consecutive rounds to get your opponent used to the idea that you have nothing in your off hand. At the beginning of your turn in the third round, make an SoH check opposed by your opponent's Spot check. If you succeed, your foe is considered flat-footed for the next single attack you make with the dagger. Whether you succeed or fail, no foe will fall for the same trick from you twice in the same battle.

Tell us what you want in your character and we may find a better way to do it. For example, there's the Clarion Commander method, Hide in Plain Sight method, Feinting method (Invisible Blade), Flanking method, Gloom Razor?, Quicker than the Eye?, and Marbles method.

I need some simply, dirty tricks to get sneak attacks.
#5
shorrhyyn
Dec 30, 2008 21:56:55
It depends what build you're going for. It's always good to have more open feat slots.

Here's a useful Sleight of hand use as mentioned in some book that I only printed this text from:

That is from complete warrior. I think i'll go with just the skill trick and leave open the feat slot. Speaking of builds, I don't have an optimized one for rogue/assassin. If you know of a good one, I couldn't really find anything on a specific assassin build that I understood in the rogues handbook and similar threads

As far as what I'm looking for, I want a character who will be able to sneak up on enemies and do large amounts of sneak attack. In addition, as the assassin part he will be doing some minor poisoning, and there's also the hidden weapon parts. He will be doing a lot of sleight of hand with weapons.

Quicker than the eye will be my 12th level feat I think, as I have 17 dex at 5th level (starting at 5th level, at 6th level I will be rogue5/assassin1)
#6
NiteCyper
Dec 30, 2008 22:06:28 What about the Rogue/Assassin progression appeals to you? If a newbie says he wants to play Rogue 5/Assassin X, it's generally the reason why we call them a newbie.

Is your DM strict on the special requirements for classes such as, if I recall correctly, killing in cold-blood to join the Assassin PrC?
It's recommended that if you want spell-casting... err, what am I saying! It's not recommended, it's thrust into our faces, repeatedly, that if you plan on effectively spell-casting at all, you progress spell-casting fully and not just take something like a, heaven-forbid, one-level Sorcerer dip. I mention this in case one of the big appeals to your joining the Assassin PrC is due to its spellcasting.
Death-attacking isn't very effective against crit-immune beings.
You can get Hide in Plain Sight much earlier.
If you want to use Sneak-attacking effectively, you expect to get +2d6 around every third level, IIRC.

Edit: every second level became every third
#7
shorrhyyn
Dec 30, 2008 22:17:08 The major abilities I plan on gaining over the levels is high sneak attack damage, the hide in plain sight, and some of the spell casting. If there is a good build for gaining those and possibly other good abilities, that would be great.

... or if you have another build that generally resembles a rogue more interested in the 'assassin-like' arts of stealth

One thing- if it can be mainly in core books that would be good, my DM sometimes vetoes parts of other books
#8
NiteCyper
Dec 30, 2008 22:22:27 Core isn't balanced. What has your DM vetoed before?
Sneak-attack damage is basically extra damage and you also want stealth. In core? Hmm... I don't think core is cut out for optimizing stealthers. Just an observation.
#9
shorrhyyn
Dec 30, 2008 22:25:13 Mainly from such things as ravenloft and ebberron. I can always check with him about the build no matter what it is, as long as he doesn't think its broken it should be fine. If the information is in any of the complete books, he was fine with it, its mainly the obscure ones he has a problem with
#10
NiteCyper
Dec 30, 2008 22:38:42 Can you mention anything in particular of such things mainly from Ravenloft and Eberron? Else, one may contrive such the idea that, perhaps, the veto was provoked by their source, being from a foreign campaign.

Brokenness is relative to the power of your group.
There are approximately 3 axes ( axis - axes /ˈækˌsiːz/, crisis - crises /ˈkɹaɪˌsiːz/) for a Stealther, and these are off the top of my head so I could be completely wrong about it including the 3 axes thing: spell-casting, melee and alternative.
Spell-casting could/would generally have the stealth factor spawn from spell-casting.
Melee applies the skill and rocks at combat either depending on the skill or having it as an aside for ambushing. Clarion Commander, Gloom Razor, flyby-attacker, Knowledge devoter and critical-specialist are examples of a melee-oriented Stealther.
Alternatives include the odd things such as death-attacking, garrote, sniper, etc.

Two things I'm finding really attractive right now are fashions of Hiding in Plain Sight and Factotum/Swashbuckler/Chameleons. I mention many ways to HiPS in my Stealth Handbook.

Edit: I suppose I should keep it simple though. I know more about theory than practise so it would be a good idea. Thus, I would recommend a Daring Outlaw or Swift Ambusher. Daring Outlaw is a feat from Complete Scoundrel that lets you stack Rogue and Swashbuckler levels for certain class features and Swift Ambusher does the same for Rogue? and Scout (PHBII?). Swashbuckler 3 nets Weapon Finesse for DEX to attack, INT to precision damage and you MUST take the Arcane Stunt variant class feature (Complete Mage?) for Expeditious Retreat because I've been reading a CO Diary entry which tells of its great usefulness.
For more, try searching the boards for more on 'Daring Outlaw' builds.
#11
shorrhyyn
Dec 30, 2008 22:43:06 I can't think of a veto off the top of my head. If you have something from one of those campaigns feel free to say it, worst case scenario it will get vetoed.

The melee section sounds like what I am going for. One thing is already set, and that is that I am a human, so if that doesn't work with any of those..
#12
NiteCyper
Dec 30, 2008 22:48:52 Human? Oh my gosh! Worst race in all of 3.5e! Beg your DM to change it!
In truth, it's practically the best.

Warforged? I can't think of anything else! lol
#13
shorrhyyn
Dec 30, 2008 23:04:30 Thanks for all your help NiteCyper =D
#14
nebelmond
Dec 31, 2008 3:01:10 Don't forget that you can use skilltricks only once per encounter, though.
#15
derrick751
May 22, 2012 21:12:49 In comparison:
Hidden Blade can only be used once per minute or encounter and requires you to have concealed the weapon beforehand so drawing it is a move action. The person you use it on must also have been unaware of the weapon.

Flick of the Wrist can be used: "Once per round and once per opponent during any single combat encounter". So if I'm reading that right you could use it against each enemy in a fight, instead of only once in the whole fight, and they needn't be unaware of the weapon. The weapon does have to be light and to get the feat you need a Dex of at least 17 on top of the requirements both share.

All in all, they seem pretty balanced as far as cost against use goes but the real benefit is that they can both be used independently of each other. This means that in a single fight, if you manage to start with an ordinary sneak attack then you can still lob 2 more onto the same enemy, enough to cripple most beefy opponents.
#16
alsebra
May 23, 2012 10:00:19 You may find more success with only a dip in Rogue, since it tops out at 10d6 (average 35 damage) sneak attack damage...but it won't be multiplied should you get a critical hit. Putting one level into Rogue, one into either Sorcerer or Wizard (for a certain spell from the PHBII), and two (or more, see below) into Ninja may pump out more damage...

One level of Rogue - 1d6 sneak attack.
One level of Sorcerer/Wizard - Blade of Blood (PHBII - weapon deals 1d6 points of damage extra, unless you voluntarily take 5 damage; if you do, it deals a total of 3d6 extra damage. 1 swift action.)
Two levels of Ninja - 1d6 sudden strike (stacks with sneak attack) and the option to utilise the variants presented in Dragon 354. Fire allows you to blind creatures for 1 round (thereby allowing you to sudden strike/sneak attack easily), water allows you to put up a mist that grants concealment (which could very well allow you to use sudden strike/sneak attack, pending DM option), and earth allows you to meld into stone (which could set up flanking options, if your party can help out).

Each of the variants takes away ghost step, the improvement to it, and ghost strike, but grant higher abilities at those levels (Fire - extend the blindness for another round with a successful sudden strike at 8, flaming burst and a retributive blast at 10; water - lace poisons into your fog at 8, solid fog at 10; earth - burrow speed at 8, DR 10/adamantine for 1d4 rounds at 10).
#17
New-Shadow
May 23, 2012 15:56:31 There are 2 other PrC's you may be interested in. Unseen Seer (from Complete Mage) for a 2 level dip, and Arcane Trickster from DMG. Unseen Seer not only gives you a +1d6 boost to bonus dice at the first level, but it gives you Silent Spell AND the opportunity to learn Divination spells from all class lists (even Divine Divination spells) for FREE (which you should use to pick up the Ranger spell Hunter's Eye from PH2, since it gives +1d6/3 CL) at the 2nd level, plus the metamagic Silent Spell. As for A.T., while Assassins normally can't get in, a rule in Complete Arcane says that Spell-like or Supernatural abilities of the same name as a spell requirement on a PrC count towards qualifing, so grab the Spell Hand feat (from either Complete Mage or Complete Arcane) to get the required Mage Hand ability, and get in the class.

I definately agree with the Daring Outlaw thing, though I'm not so sure about the Arcane Stunt thing. Could you please send me that CO diaries's web address, NiteCyper? It would help me make an informed descision.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 shorrhyyn Dec 30, 2008 20:28:26	I am making a rogue/assassin build with my newest character. He will have several hidden blades (from complete scoundrel) as well as multiple concealed daggers all across his body. I was wondering if my interpretations of the skill trick and feat are correct. Hidden Blade- After you have used the sleight of hand skill to successfully conceal a weapon, you can draw that weapon as a move action instead of a standard action. An opponent that was unaware of the concealed weapon is treated as flat footed against the first attack you make in that turn. Flick of the Wrist- If you draw a light weapon and make a melee attack with it in the same round, you catch your opponent flat-footed (for the purpose of this attack only). You may use this feat only once per round and once per opponent during any single combat encounter. It sounds to me that the only difference is that in hidden blade the weapon must be concealed, and in flick of the wrist you can draw a light weapon as a free action with quick draw. Am I interpreting that right? If that is the case, then would it make sense for a character with concealed weapons to take only hidden blade and find another good feat? I'm also looking for a good rogue/assassin level progression, with possibly another class mixed into that. If anyone has ideas for those, or a good feat that I should incorporate into such a character, that would also be great.
#2 NiteCyper Dec 30, 2008 21:36:04	Errata: You may use Flick of the Wrist once per combat encounter.
#3 shorrhyyn Dec 30, 2008 21:43:02	Ok, so would it be better to just get the hidden blade skill trick? Is it worth taking up a feat for a rogue to get flick of the wrist?
#4 NiteCyper Dec 30, 2008 21:49:02	It depends what build you're going for. It's always good to have more open feat slots. Here's a useful Sleight of hand use as mentioned in some book that I only printed this text from: You must be armed with a dagger, have the Quick Draw feat, and must be holding nothing in your off hand. Fight the same foe for at least 2 consecutive rounds to get your opponent used to the idea that you have nothing in your off hand. At the beginning of your turn in the third round, make an SoH check opposed by your opponent's Spot check. If you succeed, your foe is considered flat-footed for the next single attack you make with the dagger. Whether you succeed or fail, no foe will fall for the same trick from you twice in the same battle. Tell us what you want in your character and we may find a better way to do it. For example, there's the Clarion Commander method, Hide in Plain Sight method, Feinting method (Invisible Blade), Flanking method, Gloom Razor?, Quicker than the Eye?, and Marbles method. I need some simply, dirty tricks to get sneak attacks.
#5 shorrhyyn Dec 30, 2008 21:56:55	It depends what build you're going for. It's always good to have more open feat slots. Here's a useful Sleight of hand use as mentioned in some book that I only printed this text from: That is from complete warrior. I think i'll go with just the skill trick and leave open the feat slot. Speaking of builds, I don't have an optimized one for rogue/assassin. If you know of a good one, I couldn't really find anything on a specific assassin build that I understood in the rogues handbook and similar threads As far as what I'm looking for, I want a character who will be able to sneak up on enemies and do large amounts of sneak attack. In addition, as the assassin part he will be doing some minor poisoning, and there's also the hidden weapon parts. He will be doing a lot of sleight of hand with weapons. Quicker than the eye will be my 12th level feat I think, as I have 17 dex at 5th level (starting at 5th level, at 6th level I will be rogue5/assassin1)
#6 NiteCyper Dec 30, 2008 22:06:28	What about the Rogue/Assassin progression appeals to you? If a newbie says he wants to play Rogue 5/Assassin X, it's generally the reason why we call them a newbie. Is your DM strict on the special requirements for classes such as, if I recall correctly, killing in cold-blood to join the Assassin PrC? It's recommended that if you want spell-casting... err, what am I saying! It's not recommended, it's thrust into our faces, repeatedly, that if you plan on effectively spell-casting at all, you progress spell-casting fully and not just take something like a, heaven-forbid, one-level Sorcerer dip. I mention this in case one of the big appeals to your joining the Assassin PrC is due to its spellcasting. Death-attacking isn't very effective against crit-immune beings. You can get Hide in Plain Sight much earlier. If you want to use Sneak-attacking effectively, you expect to get +2d6 around every third level, IIRC. Edit: every second level became every third
#7 shorrhyyn Dec 30, 2008 22:17:08	The major abilities I plan on gaining over the levels is high sneak attack damage, the hide in plain sight, and some of the spell casting. If there is a good build for gaining those and possibly other good abilities, that would be great. ... or if you have another build that generally resembles a rogue more interested in the 'assassin-like' arts of stealth One thing- if it can be mainly in core books that would be good, my DM sometimes vetoes parts of other books
#8 NiteCyper Dec 30, 2008 22:22:27	Core isn't balanced. What has your DM vetoed before? Sneak-attack damage is basically extra damage and you also want stealth. In core? Hmm... I don't think core is cut out for optimizing stealthers. Just an observation.
#9 shorrhyyn Dec 30, 2008 22:25:13	Mainly from such things as ravenloft and ebberron. I can always check with him about the build no matter what it is, as long as he doesn't think its broken it should be fine. If the information is in any of the complete books, he was fine with it, its mainly the obscure ones he has a problem with
#10 NiteCyper Dec 30, 2008 22:38:42	Can you mention anything in particular of such things mainly from Ravenloft and Eberron? Else, one may contrive such the idea that, perhaps, the veto was provoked by their source, being from a foreign campaign. Brokenness is relative to the power of your group. There are approximately 3 axes ( axis - axes /ˈækˌsiːz/, crisis - crises /ˈkɹaɪˌsiːz/) for a Stealther, and these are off the top of my head so I could be completely wrong about it including the 3 axes thing: spell-casting, melee and alternative. Spell-casting could/would generally have the stealth factor spawn from spell-casting. Melee applies the skill and rocks at combat either depending on the skill or having it as an aside for ambushing. Clarion Commander, Gloom Razor, flyby-attacker, Knowledge devoter and critical-specialist are examples of a melee-oriented Stealther. Alternatives include the odd things such as death-attacking, garrote, sniper, etc. Two things I'm finding really attractive right now are fashions of Hiding in Plain Sight and Factotum/Swashbuckler/Chameleons. I mention many ways to HiPS in my Stealth Handbook. Edit: I suppose I should keep it simple though. I know more about theory than practise so it would be a good idea. Thus, I would recommend a Daring Outlaw or Swift Ambusher. Daring Outlaw is a feat from Complete Scoundrel that lets you stack Rogue and Swashbuckler levels for certain class features and Swift Ambusher does the same for Rogue? and Scout (PHBII?). Swashbuckler 3 nets Weapon Finesse for DEX to attack, INT to precision damage and you MUST take the Arcane Stunt variant class feature (Complete Mage?) for Expeditious Retreat because I've been reading a CO Diary entry which tells of its great usefulness. For more, try searching the boards for more on 'Daring Outlaw' builds.
#11 shorrhyyn Dec 30, 2008 22:43:06	I can't think of a veto off the top of my head. If you have something from one of those campaigns feel free to say it, worst case scenario it will get vetoed. The melee section sounds like what I am going for. One thing is already set, and that is that I am a human, so if that doesn't work with any of those..
#12 NiteCyper Dec 30, 2008 22:48:52	Human? Oh my gosh! Worst race in all of 3.5e! Beg your DM to change it! In truth, it's practically the best. Warforged? I can't think of anything else! lol
#13 shorrhyyn Dec 30, 2008 23:04:30	Thanks for all your help NiteCyper =D
#14 nebelmond Dec 31, 2008 3:01:10	Don't forget that you can use skilltricks only once per encounter, though.
#15 derrick751 May 22, 2012 21:12:49	In comparison: Hidden Blade can only be used once per minute or encounter and requires you to have concealed the weapon beforehand so drawing it is a move action. The person you use it on must also have been unaware of the weapon. Flick of the Wrist can be used: "Once per round and once per opponent during any single combat encounter". So if I'm reading that right you could use it against each enemy in a fight, instead of only once in the whole fight, and they needn't be unaware of the weapon. The weapon does have to be light and to get the feat you need a Dex of at least 17 on top of the requirements both share. All in all, they seem pretty balanced as far as cost against use goes but the real benefit is that they can both be used independently of each other. This means that in a single fight, if you manage to start with an ordinary sneak attack then you can still lob 2 more onto the same enemy, enough to cripple most beefy opponents.
#16 alsebra May 23, 2012 10:00:19	You may find more success with only a dip in Rogue, since it tops out at 10d6 (average 35 damage) sneak attack damage...but it won't be multiplied should you get a critical hit. Putting one level into Rogue, one into either Sorcerer or Wizard (for a certain spell from the PHBII), and two (or more, see below) into Ninja may pump out more damage... One level of Rogue - 1d6 sneak attack. One level of Sorcerer/Wizard - Blade of Blood (PHBII - weapon deals 1d6 points of damage extra, unless you voluntarily take 5 damage; if you do, it deals a total of 3d6 extra damage. 1 swift action.) Two levels of Ninja - 1d6 sudden strike (stacks with sneak attack) and the option to utilise the variants presented in Dragon 354. Fire allows you to blind creatures for 1 round (thereby allowing you to sudden strike/sneak attack easily), water allows you to put up a mist that grants concealment (which could very well allow you to use sudden strike/sneak attack, pending DM option), and earth allows you to meld into stone (which could set up flanking options, if your party can help out). Each of the variants takes away ghost step, the improvement to it, and ghost strike, but grant higher abilities at those levels (Fire - extend the blindness for another round with a successful sudden strike at 8, flaming burst and a retributive blast at 10; water - lace poisons into your fog at 8, solid fog at 10; earth - burrow speed at 8, DR 10/adamantine for 1d4 rounds at 10).
#17 New-Shadow May 23, 2012 15:56:31	There are 2 other PrC's you may be interested in. Unseen Seer (from Complete Mage) for a 2 level dip, and Arcane Trickster from DMG. Unseen Seer not only gives you a +1d6 boost to bonus dice at the first level, but it gives you Silent Spell AND the opportunity to learn Divination spells from all class lists (even Divine Divination spells) for FREE (which you should use to pick up the Ranger spell Hunter's Eye from PH2, since it gives +1d6/3 CL) at the 2nd level, plus the metamagic Silent Spell. As for A.T., while Assassins normally can't get in, a rule in Complete Arcane says that Spell-like or Supernatural abilities of the same name as a spell requirement on a PrC count towards qualifing, so grab the Spell Hand feat (from either Complete Mage or Complete Arcane) to get the required Mage Hand ability, and get in the class. I definately agree with the Daring Outlaw thing, though I'm not so sure about the Arcane Stunt thing. Could you please send me that CO diaries's web address, NiteCyper? It would help me make an informed descision.