Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 xcirrusx Nov 20, 2008 12:25:57	Not sure if there is a thread here, if there is i apologize, but does anyone know the highest non temporary AC a character can have by lvl 20. So no buffs, but if it is buffs they must be minimum 8 hours a day. Without the use of buffs I was able to get to 60AC but it also costs 400k gp. So does anyone know?
#2 tshern Nov 20, 2008 12:35:51	Infinite by several means. On a more serious note, have a look at my signature, it has a link to a thread with a good amount of AC buffs. 120 shouldn't be impossible.
#3 xcirrusx Nov 20, 2008 13:19:02	i read your not getting hit siggy, but that contains mostly BUFFS I need to know the highest ac a character can achieve using magic items or buffs that last a minimum of 8 hours.
#4 pithica Nov 20, 2008 13:29:49	You may want to back down from that ledge a little bit, and research a bit more. It's extremely easy to get any self buff to last more than 8 hrs if it doesn't already. By itself Shapechange can grant 30 or 40 AC and last well over your arbitrary 8hr limit. I regularly hit 70-80 ac with my Gish builds. And that's without shapechange or other polymorph shenanigans. And that's all day.
#5 tshern Nov 20, 2008 13:32:45	i read your not getting hit siggy, but that contains mostly BUFFS I need to know the highest ac a character can achieve using magic items or buffs that last a minimum of 8 hours. Persistent spell.
#6 xcirrusx Nov 20, 2008 13:36:47	You may want to back down from that ledge a little bit, and research a bit more. It's extremely easy to get any self buff to last more than 8 hrs if it doesn't already. By itself Shapechange can grant 30 or 40 AC and last well over your arbitrary 8hr limit. I regularly hit 70-80 ac with my Gish builds. And that's without shapechange or other polymorph shenanigans. And that's all day. Please show me by what means you achieve this. I would love to know.
#7 xcirrusx Nov 20, 2008 13:38:11	Persistent spell. Gah I feel incredibly naive now, its been over two years since i last played and I totally forgot about that broken feat. Thank you, but may i also see how your lvl 20 character achieve high ac as well.
#8 tshern Nov 20, 2008 14:12:45	Here is an example. Changeling Cleric 20. Snatch Transformation and Spell domains. Max your wisdom and in the end you ought to have a score of 34 (base+inherent+enhancement+levels). Use Beads of Karma and Divine spell power to cast Limited Wish (Spell domain) and mimic Owl's insight to gain +14 insight bonus to wisdom (persist the spell via Divine metamagic) and then cast Shapechange (Pit fiend form) and Greater Visage of the deity. Now your wisdom score is 52. Make sure you get Monk's belt. This gives you AC of: 10 (base)+9 (dex)+21 (wisdom)+1 (Monk)+24 (natural)+6 (circumstance)-1 (size) --> 70. Add in Greater Luminous armor to get 78, Shield of faith for 83, Recitation (86), +5 Defending weapon (91) and Improved Combat expertise+Divine power for another +20 to gain 111. That's just the beginning. On another board I cranked up a temporary AC with no items whatsoever of around 225-228.
#9 pithica Nov 20, 2008 14:30:40	Well, this isn't that big of a deal, but... Human Paragon 3/Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Incantatrix 4/Paragnostic Apostle 1/Eldritch Knight 3 Caster Level 17, Base BAB 15 (20 with Divine Power, persisted) Feats: The few Required feats, Persist Spell, and Arcane Disciple-Competition Spells that naturally last longer than 8 hours... Luminous Armor: +12 Armor Bonus (5 base +5 from Abjurant Champ +2 from PA) Greater Magic Weapon: (you'll see below) Spells to Persist... Shield: +9 Shield Bonus (4 base +5 from Abjurant Champ) Greater Visage of the Diety: +1 Natural +2 Racial from Dex Bite of the Werebear: +7 Enhancement to Natural Bite of the Wererat: +3 Enhancement from dex Items... +1 Animated Buckler w/ +1 Defending Armor Spikes (Greater Magic Weapon increases to +5): +5 Unnamed Bonus Ring of Protection: +5 Deflection Bonus Monk's Belt: +1 Insight and Wis to AC Periapt of Wis +6: +3 to AC from Wis Luck AC Item (Custom 62,500gp): +5 Luck Sacred or Profane AC Item (Custom 62,500gp): +5 Sacred or Profane Morale AC Item (Custom 62,500gp): +5 Morale Base 10 + Armor 12 + Shield 9 + Natural 8 + Dex >5 (mine's usually ~8) + Deflection 5 + Insight 1 + Wis >=3 (mine's usually ~4) + Unamed 5 + Luck 5 + Sac/Prof 5 + Morale 5 = 73 or higher with higher stats.
#10 tshern Nov 20, 2008 14:35:53	Paragnostic Apostle provides no bonus to Shield.
#11 pithica Nov 20, 2008 14:40:15	****, I thought I removed that....fixing.
#12 xcirrusx Nov 20, 2008 16:31:53	But how can a cr 20 creature possibly hit an ac of 111!!
#13 phaedrusxy Nov 20, 2008 16:51:23	But how can a cr 20 creature possibly hit an ac of 111!! It can't, unless it is stupendously optimized as well. And AC only protects against physical attacks in general. There are plenty of other threats in the game which partially or entirely bypass it. Also, if all you have is a good AC, you're basically a turtle that the enemies can ignore while they kill everyone else, and then come back to figure out how to finish you off later.
#14 bruceleeroy Nov 20, 2008 16:57:52	For normal gameplay, a level 20 character should have about a 55-65 AC. High powered, ~80. Optimized... Well, at that point you might as well put "N/A" in the AC field. Like PhaedrusXY said, AC is kind of irrelevant at 20. One of the critical features of 3.5 is how caster-centric the game is at the near-epic and epic levels. It's a shift in power so complete that it plays like an entirely different game.
#15 handofdust Nov 20, 2008 18:13:29	Tshern, How are you persisting Owl's Insight(Limited Wish), it's a touch spell?
#16 natenate Nov 20, 2008 18:39:03	Without Combat Expertise or Fighting Defensively, and without Defending Weapon cheese, AC 98 all day/after MDJ and ungodly-high saves to boot. Plus there's room to include two-handed power attack/shock trooper with a flying dive attack. Gloura, HD 7/ LA +2/ Cobra-Strike Monk 2/ Fighter 2/ Arcane Duelist 3/ Blackguard 3/ Mystic Wanderer (MoF) 1 Ascetic Mage plus various prerequisite feats, at least two open feats remaining without visiting the Otyugh Hole. 760,000 gp at 20: Belt of Magnificense +6, Bracers of Armor +8, +5 armor enhancement, Amulet of Natural Armor +5, Ring of Force Shield, +5 shield enhancement, Tome of Cha +5, Manual of Dex +5, 112,500 gp remaining 32-pointbuy, middle-age: Str 19 (14 base, -1 age, +6 enhancement) Dex 32 (12 base, +10 race, -1 age, +6 enhancement, +5 inherent) Con 18 (9 base, +4 race, -1 age, +6 enhancement) Int 17 (10 base, +1 age, +6 enhancement) Wis 20 (11 base, +2 race, +1 age, +6 enhancement) Cha 36 (18 baes, +6 race, +1 age, +6 enhancement, +5 inherent) AC: 98 (10 base, +13 armor, +11 dex, +13 monk, +13 apparent defense, +13 profane, +13 deflection, +5 natural, +7 shield), touch 73, flat-footed 74
#17 phaedrusxy Nov 20, 2008 22:44:44	Bracers of Armor +8, +5 armor enhancement That's not legal.
#18 tshern Nov 21, 2008 0:03:40	Tshern, How are you persisting Owl's Insight(Limited Wish), it's a touch spell? Use Ocular spell.
#19 bruceleeroy Nov 21, 2008 5:15:49	+13 apparent defense, +13 profane Both of those bonuses are coming from your Cha modifier. Is that technically RAW? Even if that's the case, it seems ridiculous.
#20 phaedrusxy Nov 21, 2008 10:37:49	Both of those bonuses are coming from your Cha modifier. Is that technically RAW? Yes, as long as they don't have the same name, or provide the same type of bonus, and these definitely don't.
#21 tordak Nov 21, 2008 13:04:57	20th level Kalashtar (ECS) monk 2/ fighter 8/ duelist 10 (could probably be better if you substitute the fighter level for Swachbukler). Stats Str 14 GP value of magical possessions: 744 000 Dex 28 Con 14 Int 23 Wis 24 Cha 10 Feat : Combat expertise, Improved Combat Expertise (ICE), Path of Shadow, Dance with Shadow (DwS; last 2 feats in RoE)), dodge, and other not important to mention (I seem to recall feat that grant you bonuses to AC when fighting one-handed w/o shield, but for the life of me I can't remember where I've seen them). +5 rank (probably more) in tumble. Deadly defense (CScoundrel) to boost your offense. Normal AC : 10 +8 bracers, +5 ring, +5 Natural armor, +9 dex, + 7 wis (from monk), +6 Int (Duelist class feature), + 1 dodge feat = 51 Tactic : fight defensively in first round and use combat expertise to fullest (+19) = + 19 + 3 (fight on the defensive + 5 rank in tumble) + 10 level 7 duelist class feature AC = 51 + 32 = 83 (touch is 70) (All are dodge bonuses, so they stack with each other) 2nd round : same as above, but you get a bonus to your 1st attack = to penalty from combat expertise in previous round, so that you don't totally suck that round (:D), thanks to DwS. 3rd round : get your AC bonus from previous CE as dodge bonus again without using CE thanks to DwS, still use your CE and fight on the defensive and get you first attack at Full AB -4 (again, DwS). This means AC= 51 (base) + 19 (CE) + 19 (DwS 3rd benefice) + 13 (fight on the defensive, 5 tumble rank, duelist class feature) = 102 (touch is 89). 110 vs AoO when moving. no boosts asside from magic Items, no weird complicated template/race combinations. not a great flat-footed ac though... Edit : works great with Kalashtar Soul Knife istead of fighter, and Vow of Poverty, and Monk 2 with Passive Ways variant from UA. This is actually where it originally comes from.
#22 ancientdragon Nov 21, 2008 14:47:26	You might be interested to see the World Record Thread (in my sig). There's what you are looking for :D
#23 reis Nov 21, 2008 14:57:45	But how can a cr 20 creature possibly hit an ac of 111!! by debuffing its target before attacking and being an optimized cr 20 opponent
#24 tshern Nov 21, 2008 15:04:29	by debuffing its target before attacking and being an optimized cr 20 opponent It's a level 20 Cleric, debuffing it won't be easy.
#25 phaedrusxy Nov 21, 2008 15:11:02	+1 Animated Buckler w/ +1 Defending Armor Spikes (Greater Magic Weapon increases to +5): +5 Unnamed Bonus Ring of Protection: +5 Deflection Bonus Monk's Belt: +1 Insight and Wis to AC You lose the monk's ac bonus if you use a shield. Also, you can't put Shield Spikes on a buckler. (You can't put Armor Spikes on any shield.) You can’t put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Edit: I guess you could argue that you're not "carrying" the animated shield, since that's what the text of the monk's AC bonus restricts... but I think this line from the Animated property shoots that argument down: A character with an animated shield still takes any penalties associated with shield use, such as armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, and nonproficiency. So you lose 5 from the defending property.
#26 tshern Nov 21, 2008 15:12:50	And the +1 from Monk's belt is not insight bonus.
#27 reis Nov 21, 2008 15:20:26	It's a level 20 Cleric, debuffing it won't be easy. why not, just MDJ them or put them in antimagic. even with regular dispelling effects DC 40+ is relatively easy to hit with CL buffs and arcane mastery etc
#28 phaedrusxy Nov 21, 2008 15:25:13	why not, just MDJ them or put them in antimagic. That's easy? Using a 9th level spell slot, or getting and keeping a powerful spellcaster within 10 feet of you? There are certainly ways to defend yourself against those also, even within core only. even with regular dispelling effects DC 40+ is relatively easy to hit with CL buffs and arcane mastery etc Greater Dispel caps at DC 40, without bringing in weird stuff like domains, specialist classes, etc. So you'll have to use dispelling spells from non-core books that have a higher "cap". Yes, its possible, but I still don't think this counts as "easy".
#29 tshern Nov 21, 2008 15:50:02	And since we are using specific tactics, Divine defiance will take care of dispelling.
#30 reis Nov 21, 2008 16:14:13	what are you going to do when you run into someone with pierce magical protection? another good trick one of my pc's is fond of is shapechanging into a beholder and using its 150 foot antimagic cone to catch spellcasters, or, better yet, share shapechange on your familiar and have him turn into a beholder and use it
#31 tshern Nov 21, 2008 16:18:48	what are you going to do when you run into someone with pierce magical protection? Cast Hold person? another good trick one of my pc's is fond of is shapechanging into a beholder and using its 150 foot antimagic cone to catch spellcasters, or, better yet, share shapechange on your familiar and have him turn into a beholder and use it So move out of the cone and kill the familiar?
#32 reis Nov 21, 2008 16:24:45	did you really suggest using hold person at 20th level?
#33 tshern Nov 21, 2008 16:28:45	did you really suggest using hold person at 20th level? Yes, exactly Hold person, not meaning spellcasting in general. Pick your poison, Shivering touch is one of my personal favourites. Or Blasphemy.
#34 reis Nov 21, 2008 16:43:14	anyway the point is AC buffs are far from infallible. there are relatively simple ways to get around them which i've pointed out. the fact that there are also counter-tactics (which may or may not work in a specific case) to those methods also doesn't negate the fact that temporary magical AC buffs aren't as reliable as their nonmagical counterparts and therefore it's hard to compare their value on a strictly point for point of AC basis. to put it another way, better to not put all your chips in one stack by relying purely on magical buffs for your AC because eventually a clever DM will find a way to negate them all and hit you hard before you can do anything about it.
#35 xcirrusx Nov 21, 2008 17:24:52	another good trick one of my pc's is fond of is shapechanging into a beholder and using its 150 foot antimagic cone to catch spellcasters, or, better yet, share shapechange on your familiar and have him turn into a beholder and use it You can let your familiar shapechange into a beholder doesn't it share the hitdice limitation as well?
#36 xcirrusx Nov 21, 2008 17:26:39	It's a level 20 Cleric, debuffing it won't be easy. Why? Sorry if the question sounds stupid. I'm ignorant when it comes to the cleric, never giving him much attention.
#37 tshern Nov 21, 2008 17:34:04	You can let your familiar shapechange into a beholder doesn't it share the hitdice limitation as well? Shapechange has no HD limitation apart from 25 HD cap, it has a CL gap. Also, using Divine spell power and Beads of karma alone make your CL 28 at level 20. Toss in Ring of enduring arcana and your CL to resist dispels is 32. On top of that Clerics tend to have awesome saves.
#38 phaedrusxy Nov 21, 2008 17:35:26	You can let your familiar shapechange into a beholder doesn't it share the hitdice limitation as well? Of course. It can't turn into anything with more than 25 HD, or your CL, whichever is lower. It gets full benefits of the spell though, including supernatural abilities like the beholder's antimagic cone. On top of that Clerics tend to have awesome saves. That won't help against most debuffing spells, as Reis is using the term. He's actually talking about dispelling you, not debuffing like most people use the term (ability damage, etc). Most of the dispel types of things don't allow saves. MDJ only allows one to see if your magic items get destroyed. You automatically lose all active spells with no save. I'm sure you knew that, though...
#39 reis Nov 21, 2008 18:12:42	CL 32 to resist dispells at level 20 is very good and makes buffs much more difficult (though hardly impossible) to negate. Divine defiance with a greater dispel magic prepped is a good backup contingency as is a ring of counterspells, although with divine defiance you are burning your immediate action for the round which can be problematic. a pc in my campaign currently runs a EL 17 focused specialist(abjuration)wizard/abjurant champion/initiate of the sevenfold veil/master specialist/archmage, these same sort of debates get acted out in the campaign regularly.
#40 tshern Nov 22, 2008 3:52:36	That won't help against most debuffing spells, as Reis is using the term. He's actually talking about dispelling you, not debuffing like most people use the term (ability damage, etc). Most of the dispel types of things don't allow saves. MDJ only allows one to see if your magic items get destroyed. You automatically lose all active spells with no save. I'm sure you knew that, though... I know and I addressed both of those problems in my post. Other ways of being protected involve Craft contingency spell and being a Dweomerkeeper. Ring of counterspells too, I suppose.
#41 aelryinth Nov 22, 2008 9:46:31	There was a sample dispel build on these boards that could reach a +32 dispel magic modifier...thats Dispel Magic, NOT Greater Dispel Magic. And it wasn't heavily magic item based, either, and it was ripping spells asunder way before all-day buffs become viable. Lean on spells for buffs, and it will get used against you. There's so many variations on dispels now that COunterspell Rings won't cut it. My favs are the Slashing and Reaping Dispels, of course....the former does dmg to you for all your buff spells as they explode, and the latter takes away your buffs and gives them to the caster. ==Aelryinth
#42 uberman Nov 22, 2008 19:34:47	CORE, no buffs: Kobold Monk 2/Fighter8/Duelist 10 Dexterity 34 (18 base + 6 enhancement + 3 lvl + 5 inherent + 2 racial) Wisdom 30 (18 base + 6 enhancement + 1 lvl + 5 inherent) Intelligence 30 (18 base + 6 enhancement + 1 lvl + 5 inherent) Feats(6): Weapon Finesse, Improved Natural Armour X5 Fighter Bonus Feats(5): Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, 2-weapon fighting, 2-weapon defense, mobility Items: +6 dex/wisdom/intelligence enhancers +5 books: Dex, wis, int Bracers of armour +8 Ring of protection +5 Amulet of natural armour +5 +5 defending weapon Total AC: 10 base + 1 size + 12 dex + 10 int + 10 wisdom + 8 armour + 11 natural armour + 5 deflection +5 defending weapon + 5 Expertise + 13 Fighting Defensively + 2 shield +1 Dodge=93 SO, total fighting defensively AC of 93 vs single opponent (97 vs AoO). I worked this up in about 15 minutes after seeing the thread.. it's not complete, but it's just to show that it's not that hard.... I mean this is using JUST the core 3 printed books and no spellcasting... which seems to be closer to what the original poster wanted.
#43 pithica Nov 23, 2008 10:04:55	You lose the monk's ac bonus if you use a shield. Also, you can't put Shield Spikes on a buckler. (You can't put Armor Spikes on any shield.) Edit: I guess you could argue that you're not "carrying" the animated shield, since that's what the text of the monk's AC bonus restricts... but I think this line from the Animated property shoots that argument down: So you lose 5 from the defending property. I meant shield spikes. And yes, my DM ruled that animated shields don't count in regards to monks, anymore than they'd count for wielding two daggers. You're never actually carrying it (once you activate it). I just forgot that that was a houserule and not the norm. Switch Buckler for light mithril shield and put shield spikes of defending on it. Switch Monks belt for Ioun Stone that does Insight to AC. Now you only lose 3. So it's 70 total. Or hell, screw it and spend another 62.5 k on a +5 insight item. now you're up two over the monk's belt. But really, I didn't post all that crap to brag or break any records. I'm not even close to a record. That's just what the AC of most of my actual Gish character's looks like. Which, again, isn't that big of a deal, and I feel is fairly the norm (or even sub-par) to builds around here. I only posted the list to demonstrate to the OP that we weren't trying to blow smoke up his butt with the 60AC isn't that big of a deal and 70-100 is closer to 'average' talk. And the +1 from Monk's belt is not insight bonus. Wow...that'll teach me not to fact check someone I lose an argument to. Seriously, that just came up in a campaign and I was told by a DM it was an insight bonus, and so I couldn't use the ioun stone. I never went behind him to double-check and just assumed I had read it wrong at some point.