Highest Leadership Score Possible, Rebooted - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Highest Leadership Score Possible, Rebooted

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
heliomance
May 28, 2009 20:24:05 Venerable Earth Kobold X 5/Marshall 1
1: Dragonwrought
3: Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
6: Leadership
Marshall bonus: Epic Leadership

Start with 18 Cha. Boosted to 21 by being Venerable. Stick in your level 4 boost to make it 22.

At level 6 your base leadership score is 12. Add in Renown, Fair and Generous, Stronghold and Special Power. Leadership score now 18.

Cheese up your WBL - not hard - and get your grubby mitts on an Admiral's Bircorne and some armour with the Command property. You now have a Leadership score of 25, neatly qualifying you for Epic Leadership. Congratulations. As a level 6 character, you have a level 7 follower.

Once you start adding a few more levels and more feats, the problem just gets worse.
#2
acereraklives
May 28, 2009 21:07:13 Well, you need to be 21st level to take Epic Leadership, so you're stuck with a pair of level 6 followers for the next 14 levels. Not that such a thing is anything to sniff at

Here's a pair of alternative builds that hit 25 by 6th level (without cheesing WBL, but cheesing might makes right and undead leadership):

LE Orc "Orc Paragon" 3/Warchief 2/Marshal 1 (Later can go into Orc warlord with a little more BAB)

Feats:
1st: Power Attack
3rd: Skill Focus: Diplomacy
6th: Leadership
6th bonus: Might Makes Right (from Marshal)

Start with maximized strength and charisma, and get a +2 item of both Strength and Charisma (8,000gp of 13,000 gp WBL). Since Might Makes Right applies your strength bonus to Leadership, you should add another +8 to the score from strength.

+6 Base
+6 Renown, Fair and Generous, Stronghold and Special Power
+5 Charisma (16 base for +3, +1 item, +1 Warchief)
+8 Strength
= 25

Variant:
LE Dragonborn Water Orc barbarian 2/"Orc Paragon" 3/Marshal 1
ACFs: Wolf Totem barbarian (UA).
- this build only gets 24 leadership by 6th level, but has improved trip and applies his charisma to strength checks, as well as +4 Str/+4 Con. Just more cheesy basically.

Undead leader: Human Paragon 1/Sorcerer 1/Human Paragon +2/Warchief 2/X ?? (Ecclesiarch (EbCS), Leadership)
Leadership score 13 using elite array: 6 (lvl) + 2 (ecclesiarch) + 1 (Extra Followers) + 4 (Cha 15 +1 lvl4 +2 HE Paragon). Gives 20 1st level followers, 2 2nd level followers, and a 4th level cohort.

Feats: 1st (open), 1st bonus (open), 3rd bonus (open), 3rd (Ecclesiarch), 6th (Undead Leadership)

Leadership:
+0 Str
+9 Cha (4 base, 1 cloak, 1 from human paragon, 1 from warchief, 1.5+.5=2 from venerable and 4th level)
+6 level
+2 ecclesiarch
+2 undead leadership
+2 renown
+2 keep
+1 special power
+1 fairness and generosity
#3
heliomance
May 28, 2009 21:21:32
Well, you need to be 21st level to take Epic Leadership, so you're stuck with a pair of level 6 followers for the next 14 levels. Not that such a thing is anything to sniff at

Nope. I didn't make it a kobold just for gits and shiggles, you know. Dragonwrought Kobolds are true dragons. Thanks to a clause in (I believe) the Draconomicon, any true dragon of Old age or older qualifies for Epic feats regardless of hit dice :D

Thus, a venerable dragonwrought kobold qualifies for Epic feats at level 1.
#4
pyro_azer
May 28, 2009 21:42:14 Your cohorts level may not be greater than your level - 2.
#5
user5127
May 28, 2009 22:14:51 but such a cap doesn't apply to your followers.
#6
emy
May 28, 2009 22:26:43 You used Might Makes Right without Festering Anger?
#7
sofawall
May 29, 2009 0:06:51 Whatever level you can get Cancer Mage at, Leadership scores become infinite. Thought you should know.
#8
heliomance
May 29, 2009 2:13:49 O_o how?

Actually, without MAJOR raping of WBL, I don't think we can get a leadership score of 25 by 6th level using the Kobold route. The highest I can manage is 20. So Epic Leadership will have to wait until level 9.

After playing with the numbers, I'm not convinced it's actually possible to have a follower of a higher level than yourself without either copious Dragon material or the DCFS. My best attempt so far:

Venerable Earth Kobold, 2 flaws, Ranger 3/Warchief 2/Legendary Commander 4/Marshal 1
Starting stats 16 8 6 11 11 21 (32 point buy)
1: Dragonwrought
Flaw: Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
Flaw: Education - necessary to be able to get 6 ranks in Kn: Religion in time for:
3: Ecclesiarch
6: Leadership
9: Epic Leadership
Marshal bonus: Might Makes Right

Both stat bumps into charisma
Warchief 2 bumps Charisma by 2
Cloak of Charisma +4
Belt of Giant's Strength +4
Final stats 20 8 6 11 11 29

Final leadership score for the purposes of attracting followers:
10 (levels) +9 (Cha mod) +5 (Str mod) +2 (Ecclesiarch) +4 (Legendary Commander bonus) +6 (Great Renown etc) = 36, just enough to get one level 9 follower. Any other builds I tried at different levels had the highest level follower two below.
#9
divinechaos78
May 29, 2009 3:15:01 Ummm call me sill, but the Marshal class grants the feat Skill Focus: Diplomacy... for free.

Why on earth would you spend a flaw, to get that feat... twice? lol
#10
heliomance
May 29, 2009 3:35:18 Because of the nice clause in the Marshal class "If you already possess this feat, you may choose another feat that you qualify for."
There is no restriction on the feat you can take in its stead. So by taking Skill Focus (Diplomacy) with a flaw, I get a free feat at 10th level when I meet the prereqs for more useful feats.
#11
emy
May 29, 2009 9:14:33
Whatever level you can get Cancer Mage at, Leadership scores become infinite. Thought you should know.

Not infinite, but arbitrarily large, yes.

I believe it's +2 Str per day, forever.

(Which is +1 leadership score per day, with Might Makes Right.)

edit:

Well, potentially infinite. Be an Elan Paranoid Wizard and live forever.

It never goes infinite. (There are some builds that do. (Omniscificer))
#12
sofawall
May 29, 2009 12:11:43 Well, potentially infinite. Be an Elan Paranoid Wizard and live forever.
#13
guide_seneschal
May 30, 2009 3:20:51
It never goes infinite. (There are some builds that do. (Omniscificer))

Forward quoting leads community opinion to tend to the thought that you might be such a build ;)
#14
acereraklives
May 30, 2009 15:44:01
Nope. I didn't make it a kobold just for gits and shiggles, you know. Dragonwrought Kobolds are true dragons. Thanks to a clause in (I believe) the Draconomicon, any true dragon of Old age or older qualifies for Epic feats regardless of hit dice :D

Thus, a venerable dragonwrought kobold qualifies for Epic feats at level 1.

Ah, I had forgotten that rules quirk - I assumed the venerable dragonwrought kobold was for the +3 to Cha without taking -6 to Str/Con/Dex :P

Pretty silly rules interaction though...besides Leadership, I wonder what other epic feats are actually worth taking and don't require 24 ranks in a skill.
#15
sofawall
May 30, 2009 20:50:27 Dragonwrought keeps penalties, DragonBORN loses penalties.
#16
acereraklives
May 30, 2009 22:30:44 I believe you are incorrect on both counts, Sofawall. Check page 39 on Races of the Dragon, and the aging effects table provided for kobolds, which states that "ability penalties due to aging do not apply to dragonwrought kobolds."

Also, Dragonborn lose their penalties from aging, but also lose their bonuses. See page 10: "A dragonborn character is reborn, losing any bonuses or penalties she recieved because of her age."
#17
sofawall
May 30, 2009 23:09:17
I believe you are incorrect on both counts, Sofawall. Check page 39 on Races of the Dragon, and the aging effects table provided for kobolds, which states that "ability penalties due to aging do not apply to dragonwrought kobolds."

Also, Dragonborn lose their penalties from aging, but also lose their bonuses. See page 10: "A dragonborn character is reborn, losing any bonuses or penalties she recieved because of her age."

Ah, see, I didn't know that Dragonwrought lost penalties.

Also, just be a really old Dragonborn?

EDIT: Just to clarify, I've never actually looked up either with regards to that, 'tis just what I hear around these boards.
#18
acereraklives
May 31, 2009 16:49:58 Well, you could just be a really old dragonborn, but I'd assume that then your mods would still reflect your old age, making it somewhat moot to be an old dragonborn over an old .

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 heliomance May 28, 2009 20:24:05	Venerable Earth Kobold X 5/Marshall 1 1: Dragonwrought 3: Skill Focus (Diplomacy) 6: Leadership Marshall bonus: Epic Leadership Start with 18 Cha. Boosted to 21 by being Venerable. Stick in your level 4 boost to make it 22. At level 6 your base leadership score is 12. Add in Renown, Fair and Generous, Stronghold and Special Power. Leadership score now 18. Cheese up your WBL - not hard - and get your grubby mitts on an Admiral's Bircorne and some armour with the Command property. You now have a Leadership score of 25, neatly qualifying you for Epic Leadership. Congratulations. As a level 6 character, you have a level 7 follower. Once you start adding a few more levels and more feats, the problem just gets worse.
#2 acereraklives May 28, 2009 21:07:13	Well, you need to be 21st level to take Epic Leadership, so you're stuck with a pair of level 6 followers for the next 14 levels. Not that such a thing is anything to sniff at Here's a pair of alternative builds that hit 25 by 6th level (without cheesing WBL, but cheesing might makes right and undead leadership): LE Orc "Orc Paragon" 3/Warchief 2/Marshal 1 (Later can go into Orc warlord with a little more BAB) Feats: 1st: Power Attack 3rd: Skill Focus: Diplomacy 6th: Leadership 6th bonus: Might Makes Right (from Marshal) Start with maximized strength and charisma, and get a +2 item of both Strength and Charisma (8,000gp of 13,000 gp WBL). Since Might Makes Right applies your strength bonus to Leadership, you should add another +8 to the score from strength. +6 Base +6 Renown, Fair and Generous, Stronghold and Special Power +5 Charisma (16 base for +3, +1 item, +1 Warchief) +8 Strength = 25 Variant: LE Dragonborn Water Orc barbarian 2/"Orc Paragon" 3/Marshal 1 ACFs: Wolf Totem barbarian (UA). - this build only gets 24 leadership by 6th level, but has improved trip and applies his charisma to strength checks, as well as +4 Str/+4 Con. Just more cheesy basically. Undead leader: Human Paragon 1/Sorcerer 1/Human Paragon +2/Warchief 2/X ?? (Ecclesiarch (EbCS), Leadership) Leadership score 13 using elite array: 6 (lvl) + 2 (ecclesiarch) + 1 (Extra Followers) + 4 (Cha 15 +1 lvl4 +2 HE Paragon). Gives 20 1st level followers, 2 2nd level followers, and a 4th level cohort. Feats: 1st (open), 1st bonus (open), 3rd bonus (open), 3rd (Ecclesiarch), 6th (Undead Leadership) Leadership: +0 Str +9 Cha (4 base, 1 cloak, 1 from human paragon, 1 from warchief, 1.5+.5=2 from venerable and 4th level) +6 level +2 ecclesiarch +2 undead leadership +2 renown +2 keep +1 special power +1 fairness and generosity
#3 heliomance May 28, 2009 21:21:32	Well, you need to be 21st level to take Epic Leadership, so you're stuck with a pair of level 6 followers for the next 14 levels. Not that such a thing is anything to sniff at Nope. I didn't make it a kobold just for gits and shiggles, you know. Dragonwrought Kobolds are true dragons. Thanks to a clause in (I believe) the Draconomicon, any true dragon of Old age or older qualifies for Epic feats regardless of hit dice :D Thus, a venerable dragonwrought kobold qualifies for Epic feats at level 1.
#4 pyro_azer May 28, 2009 21:42:14	Your cohorts level may not be greater than your level - 2.
#5 user5127 May 28, 2009 22:14:51	but such a cap doesn't apply to your followers.
#6 emy May 28, 2009 22:26:43	You used Might Makes Right without Festering Anger?
#7 sofawall May 29, 2009 0:06:51	Whatever level you can get Cancer Mage at, Leadership scores become infinite. Thought you should know.
#8 heliomance May 29, 2009 2:13:49	O_o how? Actually, without MAJOR raping of WBL, I don't think we can get a leadership score of 25 by 6th level using the Kobold route. The highest I can manage is 20. So Epic Leadership will have to wait until level 9. After playing with the numbers, I'm not convinced it's actually possible to have a follower of a higher level than yourself without either copious Dragon material or the DCFS. My best attempt so far: Venerable Earth Kobold, 2 flaws, Ranger 3/Warchief 2/Legendary Commander 4/Marshal 1 Starting stats 16 8 6 11 11 21 (32 point buy) 1: Dragonwrought Flaw: Skill Focus (Diplomacy) Flaw: Education - necessary to be able to get 6 ranks in Kn: Religion in time for: 3: Ecclesiarch 6: Leadership 9: Epic Leadership Marshal bonus: Might Makes Right Both stat bumps into charisma Warchief 2 bumps Charisma by 2 Cloak of Charisma +4 Belt of Giant's Strength +4 Final stats 20 8 6 11 11 29 Final leadership score for the purposes of attracting followers: 10 (levels) +9 (Cha mod) +5 (Str mod) +2 (Ecclesiarch) +4 (Legendary Commander bonus) +6 (Great Renown etc) = 36, just enough to get one level 9 follower. Any other builds I tried at different levels had the highest level follower two below.
#9 divinechaos78 May 29, 2009 3:15:01	Ummm call me sill, but the Marshal class grants the feat Skill Focus: Diplomacy... for free. Why on earth would you spend a flaw, to get that feat... twice? lol
#10 heliomance May 29, 2009 3:35:18	Because of the nice clause in the Marshal class "If you already possess this feat, you may choose another feat that you qualify for." There is no restriction on the feat you can take in its stead. So by taking Skill Focus (Diplomacy) with a flaw, I get a free feat at 10th level when I meet the prereqs for more useful feats.
#11 emy May 29, 2009 9:14:33	Whatever level you can get Cancer Mage at, Leadership scores become infinite. Thought you should know. Not infinite, but arbitrarily large, yes. I believe it's +2 Str per day, forever. (Which is +1 leadership score per day, with Might Makes Right.) edit: Well, potentially infinite. Be an Elan Paranoid Wizard and live forever. It never goes infinite. (There are some builds that do. (Omniscificer))
#12 sofawall May 29, 2009 12:11:43	Well, potentially infinite. Be an Elan Paranoid Wizard and live forever.
#13 guide_seneschal May 30, 2009 3:20:51	It never goes infinite. (There are some builds that do. (Omniscificer)) Forward quoting leads community opinion to tend to the thought that you might be such a build ;)
#14 acereraklives May 30, 2009 15:44:01	Nope. I didn't make it a kobold just for gits and shiggles, you know. Dragonwrought Kobolds are true dragons. Thanks to a clause in (I believe) the Draconomicon, any true dragon of Old age or older qualifies for Epic feats regardless of hit dice :D Thus, a venerable dragonwrought kobold qualifies for Epic feats at level 1. Ah, I had forgotten that rules quirk - I assumed the venerable dragonwrought kobold was for the +3 to Cha without taking -6 to Str/Con/Dex :P Pretty silly rules interaction though...besides Leadership, I wonder what other epic feats are actually worth taking and don't require 24 ranks in a skill.
#15 sofawall May 30, 2009 20:50:27	Dragonwrought keeps penalties, DragonBORN loses penalties.
#16 acereraklives May 30, 2009 22:30:44	I believe you are incorrect on both counts, Sofawall. Check page 39 on Races of the Dragon, and the aging effects table provided for kobolds, which states that "ability penalties due to aging do not apply to dragonwrought kobolds." Also, Dragonborn lose their penalties from aging, but also lose their bonuses. See page 10: "A dragonborn character is reborn, losing any bonuses or penalties she recieved because of her age."
#17 sofawall May 30, 2009 23:09:17	I believe you are incorrect on both counts, Sofawall. Check page 39 on Races of the Dragon, and the aging effects table provided for kobolds, which states that "ability penalties due to aging do not apply to dragonwrought kobolds." Also, Dragonborn lose their penalties from aging, but also lose their bonuses. See page 10: "A dragonborn character is reborn, losing any bonuses or penalties she recieved because of her age." Ah, see, I didn't know that Dragonwrought lost penalties. Also, just be a really old Dragonborn? EDIT: Just to clarify, I've never actually looked up either with regards to that, 'tis just what I hear around these boards.
#18 acereraklives May 31, 2009 16:49:58	Well, you could just be a really old dragonborn, but I'd assume that then your mods would still reflect your old age, making it somewhat moot to be an old dragonborn over an old .