Hit and Run Harpooner - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Hit and Run Harpooner

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
maeglin_dubh
Mar 27, 2008 22:15:34 Yes, it can be thrown. But it can also be stabbed.

Human
Barbarian 1 - Starting feat, EWP: Harpoon, Human feat: Dodge
Scout 1 - Yup.
Scout 2 - Bonus Feat: Mobility
Scout 3 - Here we get the second Fast Movement bonus, for a total landspeed of 50'.
Fighter 1 - Fighter Feat: Spring Attack (Or Point Blank Shot, if going for the ranged version. Follow with another level of Fighter for Shot on the Run.)

Maybe not fully optimal, but does it look like a good early build? Only problem I see is if your target either chooses to ignore the harpoon, or just follows you around, which makes the whole rope thing sorta worthless. Controlling, maybe, but since you need both hands (I think?) to control the rope, you can't exactly press the attack with your backup weapon(s) without dropping the rope, which sort of kills the effect. I suppose having a harpoon using partner could help, allowing you to take a creature from both sides and keep them immobilized.

Thoughts?
#2
stickboy2323
Mar 27, 2008 22:28:27 I'm playing in a Savage Tide campaign right now and another guy in my group is playing an unarmed/harpoon fighter. He generally uses the harpoon to control foes. He will usually then drag them in and pummel them to death. It's been a fairly good tactic so far, kind of like a ranged grapple.
#3
maeglin_dubh
Mar 27, 2008 22:34:49 So, how many hands does it take to control the rope? I'm not seeing any hints on either the Crystal Keep entry or the Stormwrack entry.

I also just noticed the half-speed, no run or charge bit. That ups the usefulness, in my opinion.
#4
surreal
Mar 27, 2008 22:48:55 The rules regarding harpoon usage are fuzzy at best. Your best bet is to sit down with your DM to discuss the various applications you can think of. Personally, I just like dragging the enemy through my allies' threatened areas to provoke AoOs.
#5
maeglin_dubh
Mar 27, 2008 22:51:55 I'm seeing some interesting possibilities with Strength-damaging poison on the harpoon...

It says you can keep them from getting away, but does that mean you can actually drag them?
#6
stickboy2323
Mar 27, 2008 22:58:24 The DM of my group allows the character to use one hand to control the rope which has allowed the character to use two harpoons simultaneously to control two separate foes. No joke. And to what Surreal said, I've seen that tactic used a lot and been the happy opportunist on many occasions. Basically it boils down to this, if you want to be a harpooner you should try building more to strength/power attack than to skirmish.
#7
maeglin_dubh
Mar 27, 2008 23:13:21 I'm planning strength-based skirmish, carrying multiple harpoons (most likely two or three, since they're heavy, unless I can think of a cheap, lighter material to use), and using the great speed of this build to get in, Spring Attack the target, and get back to rope range without suffering an attack. Later levels can take Power Attack for more damage, but this seemed to be the best way to get the skirmishing online as quickly as possible.

I like to do low-to-mid level themed builds, and I don't mind improvements, but I try to keep it within the theme. I think this one fits the theme I had in mind, and I'm looking to elicit tips and tactics to use with the build, or maybe class/feats/other equipment that I haven't thought of. A lot of these builds are being made in the absence of a game or GM, just for fun, or maybe as NPC's in the future.

That said, what are the advantages to a build like you're describing? More damage, so more on removal?
#8
stickboy2323
Mar 27, 2008 23:36:46 Well if you are dead set on skirmish then I would suggest a swift hunter build. Maybe something like LT Barb 1, Scout 4, Ranger 15. For feats, ummm, ewp: harpoon and swift hunter, of course, and power attack, improved skirmish, brutal throw and probably IUS with superior unarmed strike.

In combat you'll want to focus on attacking things with low reflex saves so that you can successfully harpoon them. I'm not sure if you would get the skirmish damage again for removal, probably not. After you harpoon something your'e next action should be to run up on it and start wailing.
#9
surreal
Mar 27, 2008 23:38:40 From your current build, I would continue into Fighter 2/Barbarian 2/Scout 5. That gives you a few more bonus feats, imp. uncanny dodge, and evasion.
#10
maeglin_dubh
Mar 27, 2008 23:40:48 Which combat style would that use? Including the possibility of the extra ones included in Crystal Keep.

EDIT: @Surreal: I was thinking of that, and also of possibly taking Extra Rage as a bonus feat, continuing on as either a Scout or going Rogue for Swift Ambusher and flanking a lot. One thing that makes me embrace that idea a little less is the BAB progression, so I'm looking at other, fully BAB options. Ranger is definitely one of them. After the stage you describe, I think progression would depend on the game it wound up in.
#11
stickboy2323
Mar 27, 2008 23:44:53 I'd go with TWF. TWF + IUS + SUS = Monk-like fighting without all the silly alignment and weapon restriction.
#12
maeglin_dubh
Mar 28, 2008 1:35:40 Where can I find Superior Unarmed Strike?
Also, would Skirmish damage add on to the harpoon Ref save? It seems to me that it wouldn't, which makes it more clear to me why a high-damage, possibly charging build would be superior, for a higher save.
Also, can anyone think of any special materials that would cut down on the weight of the harpoon? I've only found one weapon material that reduces weight, and I don't think Blue Ice is appropriate in this situation.
#13
stickboy2323
Mar 28, 2008 2:01:19 SUS is in Tome of Battle.

Upon rereading the harpoon description it seems to me like skirmish damage would apply to the save DC and to removal damage as well. The common sense part of me wants to say that it should not add to removal damage but I see no problem at all with it adding to the save DC. Mithral cuts the weight of an item in half but then costs +500/pound. So, a mithral harpoon would only weigh 5 pounds but would cost 2515 gp. I think you're better off just lugging around more weight. Besides, you'll probably want a few different harpoons made from different materials like adamantine, cold iron, silver.
#14
maeglin_dubh
Mar 28, 2008 6:54:33 Well, that's one fairly strong vote in favor of Skirmish. Would Sneak Attack also apply the extra dice damage? If so, I think I'm looking at a swift ambusher. Although, Favored Enemy does works regardless of anatomy...
#15
aiden_bautista
Mar 28, 2008 7:36:05 For the charger you can use the feat Hurling Charge. It lets you throw a weapon in the middle of a charge and still attack at the end. I don't think you can pounce though.
#16
maeglin_dubh
Mar 28, 2008 8:20:11 I feel like I could use that in either build.... I'll want Quick Draw, I imagine.
#17
maeglin_dubh
Mar 28, 2008 11:26:59 Also, as a hostile NPC, I've realized this is a decent way to hamper any spellcaster who hasn't maxed Concentration. Casting a spell with a harpoon in you requires a Concentration check, and failure causes the loss of the spell. Really a pretty versatile weapon, even if you're not going to be dragging people around.

Combine with a Lasso-wielding or Bolo-throwing partner for total incapacitation, methinks. That'll be my next build.
#18
Notmonk_of_Doom
Mar 28, 2008 12:12:11
Also, as a hostile NPC, I've realized this is a decent way to hamper any spellcaster who hasn't maxed Concentration.

Unfortunately, these are few and far between.

I believe Ironwood is lighter than standard materials, which would be nice for a harpoon- but I don't recall off the top of my head.
#19
maeglin_dubh
Mar 28, 2008 12:21:13 Let me know how this sounds; it would require getting another EWP, but it seems worth it.

Get EWP: Whip. Get a Dagger-Whip. You can now hit foes 15 feet away.

Harpoon enemy. Drag.
You are at most 30' away. Move 15' in, attack with the whip, move 35' out, dragging them the last 20', preferably through AOA.
Repeat as necessary.

Does it count as TWF, since you would no longer actually be wielding the harpoon?

EDIT: I had thought of Ironwood, and it seems appropriate, but I need to find the source for it.
#20
womblehunter
Mar 28, 2008 12:39:42 Darkwood is what you want, from the DMG.

Can you pull a harpoon out of your enemy yourself in order to deal the extra damage?
#21
maeglin_dubh
Mar 28, 2008 12:46:53
Darkwood is what you want, from the DMG.

Can you pull a harpoon out of your enemy yourself in order to deal the extra damage?

Thanks. And I'm not sure... Only time I think I would ever want to do that is if I knew it would be the kill shot... It takes a fullround action, and requires both hands, so I'd be stuck sitting next to whatever I had just harpooned.
#22
stickboy2323
Mar 28, 2008 12:50:01 In the weapon description it specifies the harpooned creature pulling it out. In the game I'm playing in the DM allows anyone to pull it out but it does take a full round action that provokes AoOs.
#23
maeglin_dubh
Mar 28, 2008 13:20:48 That sounds reasonable.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 maeglin_dubh Mar 27, 2008 22:15:34	Yes, it can be thrown. But it can also be stabbed. Human Barbarian 1 - Starting feat, EWP: Harpoon, Human feat: Dodge Scout 1 - Yup. Scout 2 - Bonus Feat: Mobility Scout 3 - Here we get the second Fast Movement bonus, for a total landspeed of 50'. Fighter 1 - Fighter Feat: Spring Attack (Or Point Blank Shot, if going for the ranged version. Follow with another level of Fighter for Shot on the Run.) Maybe not fully optimal, but does it look like a good early build? Only problem I see is if your target either chooses to ignore the harpoon, or just follows you around, which makes the whole rope thing sorta worthless. Controlling, maybe, but since you need both hands (I think?) to control the rope, you can't exactly press the attack with your backup weapon(s) without dropping the rope, which sort of kills the effect. I suppose having a harpoon using partner could help, allowing you to take a creature from both sides and keep them immobilized. Thoughts?
#2 stickboy2323 Mar 27, 2008 22:28:27	I'm playing in a Savage Tide campaign right now and another guy in my group is playing an unarmed/harpoon fighter. He generally uses the harpoon to control foes. He will usually then drag them in and pummel them to death. It's been a fairly good tactic so far, kind of like a ranged grapple.
#3 maeglin_dubh Mar 27, 2008 22:34:49	So, how many hands does it take to control the rope? I'm not seeing any hints on either the Crystal Keep entry or the Stormwrack entry. I also just noticed the half-speed, no run or charge bit. That ups the usefulness, in my opinion.
#4 surreal Mar 27, 2008 22:48:55	The rules regarding harpoon usage are fuzzy at best. Your best bet is to sit down with your DM to discuss the various applications you can think of. Personally, I just like dragging the enemy through my allies' threatened areas to provoke AoOs.
#5 maeglin_dubh Mar 27, 2008 22:51:55	I'm seeing some interesting possibilities with Strength-damaging poison on the harpoon... It says you can keep them from getting away, but does that mean you can actually drag them?
#6 stickboy2323 Mar 27, 2008 22:58:24	The DM of my group allows the character to use one hand to control the rope which has allowed the character to use two harpoons simultaneously to control two separate foes. No joke. And to what Surreal said, I've seen that tactic used a lot and been the happy opportunist on many occasions. Basically it boils down to this, if you want to be a harpooner you should try building more to strength/power attack than to skirmish.
#7 maeglin_dubh Mar 27, 2008 23:13:21	I'm planning strength-based skirmish, carrying multiple harpoons (most likely two or three, since they're heavy, unless I can think of a cheap, lighter material to use), and using the great speed of this build to get in, Spring Attack the target, and get back to rope range without suffering an attack. Later levels can take Power Attack for more damage, but this seemed to be the best way to get the skirmishing online as quickly as possible. I like to do low-to-mid level themed builds, and I don't mind improvements, but I try to keep it within the theme. I think this one fits the theme I had in mind, and I'm looking to elicit tips and tactics to use with the build, or maybe class/feats/other equipment that I haven't thought of. A lot of these builds are being made in the absence of a game or GM, just for fun, or maybe as NPC's in the future. That said, what are the advantages to a build like you're describing? More damage, so more on removal?
#8 stickboy2323 Mar 27, 2008 23:36:46	Well if you are dead set on skirmish then I would suggest a swift hunter build. Maybe something like LT Barb 1, Scout 4, Ranger 15. For feats, ummm, ewp: harpoon and swift hunter, of course, and power attack, improved skirmish, brutal throw and probably IUS with superior unarmed strike. In combat you'll want to focus on attacking things with low reflex saves so that you can successfully harpoon them. I'm not sure if you would get the skirmish damage again for removal, probably not. After you harpoon something your'e next action should be to run up on it and start wailing.
#9 surreal Mar 27, 2008 23:38:40	From your current build, I would continue into Fighter 2/Barbarian 2/Scout 5. That gives you a few more bonus feats, imp. uncanny dodge, and evasion.
#10 maeglin_dubh Mar 27, 2008 23:40:48	Which combat style would that use? Including the possibility of the extra ones included in Crystal Keep. EDIT: @Surreal: I was thinking of that, and also of possibly taking Extra Rage as a bonus feat, continuing on as either a Scout or going Rogue for Swift Ambusher and flanking a lot. One thing that makes me embrace that idea a little less is the BAB progression, so I'm looking at other, fully BAB options. Ranger is definitely one of them. After the stage you describe, I think progression would depend on the game it wound up in.
#11 stickboy2323 Mar 27, 2008 23:44:53	I'd go with TWF. TWF + IUS + SUS = Monk-like fighting without all the silly alignment and weapon restriction.
#12 maeglin_dubh Mar 28, 2008 1:35:40	Where can I find Superior Unarmed Strike? Also, would Skirmish damage add on to the harpoon Ref save? It seems to me that it wouldn't, which makes it more clear to me why a high-damage, possibly charging build would be superior, for a higher save. Also, can anyone think of any special materials that would cut down on the weight of the harpoon? I've only found one weapon material that reduces weight, and I don't think Blue Ice is appropriate in this situation.
#13 stickboy2323 Mar 28, 2008 2:01:19	SUS is in Tome of Battle. Upon rereading the harpoon description it seems to me like skirmish damage would apply to the save DC and to removal damage as well. The common sense part of me wants to say that it should not add to removal damage but I see no problem at all with it adding to the save DC. Mithral cuts the weight of an item in half but then costs +500/pound. So, a mithral harpoon would only weigh 5 pounds but would cost 2515 gp. I think you're better off just lugging around more weight. Besides, you'll probably want a few different harpoons made from different materials like adamantine, cold iron, silver.
#14 maeglin_dubh Mar 28, 2008 6:54:33	Well, that's one fairly strong vote in favor of Skirmish. Would Sneak Attack also apply the extra dice damage? If so, I think I'm looking at a swift ambusher. Although, Favored Enemy does works regardless of anatomy...
#15 aiden_bautista Mar 28, 2008 7:36:05	For the charger you can use the feat Hurling Charge. It lets you throw a weapon in the middle of a charge and still attack at the end. I don't think you can pounce though.
#16 maeglin_dubh Mar 28, 2008 8:20:11	I feel like I could use that in either build.... I'll want Quick Draw, I imagine.
#17 maeglin_dubh Mar 28, 2008 11:26:59	Also, as a hostile NPC, I've realized this is a decent way to hamper any spellcaster who hasn't maxed Concentration. Casting a spell with a harpoon in you requires a Concentration check, and failure causes the loss of the spell. Really a pretty versatile weapon, even if you're not going to be dragging people around. Combine with a Lasso-wielding or Bolo-throwing partner for total incapacitation, methinks. That'll be my next build.
#18 Notmonk_of_Doom Mar 28, 2008 12:12:11	Also, as a hostile NPC, I've realized this is a decent way to hamper any spellcaster who hasn't maxed Concentration. Unfortunately, these are few and far between. I believe Ironwood is lighter than standard materials, which would be nice for a harpoon- but I don't recall off the top of my head.
#19 maeglin_dubh Mar 28, 2008 12:21:13	Let me know how this sounds; it would require getting another EWP, but it seems worth it. Get EWP: Whip. Get a Dagger-Whip. You can now hit foes 15 feet away. Harpoon enemy. Drag. You are at most 30' away. Move 15' in, attack with the whip, move 35' out, dragging them the last 20', preferably through AOA. Repeat as necessary. Does it count as TWF, since you would no longer actually be wielding the harpoon? EDIT: I had thought of Ironwood, and it seems appropriate, but I need to find the source for it.
#20 womblehunter Mar 28, 2008 12:39:42	Darkwood is what you want, from the DMG. Can you pull a harpoon out of your enemy yourself in order to deal the extra damage?
#21 maeglin_dubh Mar 28, 2008 12:46:53	Darkwood is what you want, from the DMG. Can you pull a harpoon out of your enemy yourself in order to deal the extra damage? Thanks. And I'm not sure... Only time I think I would ever want to do that is if I knew it would be the kill shot... It takes a fullround action, and requires both hands, so I'd be stuck sitting next to whatever I had just harpooned.
#22 stickboy2323 Mar 28, 2008 12:50:01	In the weapon description it specifies the harpooned creature pulling it out. In the game I'm playing in the DM allows anyone to pull it out but it does take a full round action that provokes AoOs.
#23 maeglin_dubh Mar 28, 2008 13:20:48	That sounds reasonable.