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| #1cycadaJun 04, 2008 19:58:35 | It was only recently, as I thumbed through the BoED, that I realized just how effective and useful the VoP feat actually is. I've seen it mentioned more than one time on these boards, but I've never tried to look it up. This might not be in 'quite' the right format, but this is a 20th level character that is pretty much the full advancement of one of my characters I'm currently playing. Tell me what you think, or what feats could be replaced to make the build better. I won't bother writing out the full build progression as it's fairly complicated to write/understand, but hopefully this will be enough. If there are any errors I would also like to know..... Assumptions: My DM has allowed the alignment of the Paladin reflect that of his patron, therefore my character is CG instead of LG. Books Used: UA, PH, BoED, ComD, SC Edit: Looking through the MM, I just realized something else. The character presented here would have a pretty matched fight against a Balor. Sure he couldn't stand up to too much fighting, but with all the resistances and the fact that the Balor's spells wouldn't effect him, I see no reason why Seriph couldn't have a chance at winning. Seriph, Hellbred Cleric 7/Prestige Paladin 3/Risen Martyr 10 Medium Humanoid(Hellbred, Deathless, Celestial, Eladrin) Hit Dice: 20d12 (120 hp) Initiative: +3 Speed: 30 ft.(6 squares) Armor Class: 43 (+14 exalted, +6 natural armor, +13 deflection) Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+17 Attacks: +25 (+5 Good cold iron spear, 1d8+11 dmg) Full Attack: +25/+20/+15 (+5 Good cold iron spear, 1d8+11 dmg) Space/Reach: 5ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Smite Evil 3/day, Turn Undead 20/day, Lay on Hands 70hp/day, Spells Special Qualities: Darkvision 120ft, Telepathy 100ft, See in magical darkness, Auras, Regeneration 10, DR 10/Evil, Fire and Sonic Resistance 15, Spell Resistance 25/evil, Immunity to Acid, Electricity, Cold, Thirst, detect thoughts, discern lies, alignment detection spells, possession, and fear effects, deathless traits, see below. Saves: Fort +30, Ref +29, Will +40 Abilities: Str 18, Dex 16, Con -, Int 13, Wis 24, Cha 36 Skills: Bluff +15, Concentration +13, Diplomacy +44, Intimidate +15, Knowledge(arcana) +6, Heal +22, Sense Motive +22, Knowledge(religion) +20 Feats: Sacred Vow, Vow of Nonviolence, Vow of Peace, Vow of Poverty, Subduing Strike, Nonlethal Substitution, Holy Subdual, Nimbus of Light, Holy Radiance, Hands of a Healer, Touch of Golden Ice, Divine Might, Intuitive Attack, Devil's Favor, Power Attack, Awesome Smite, Improved Smite, Extra Turning, Extra Smiting, Spell Focus(enchantment) Alignment: Chaotic Good Equipment: Sanctified(Thadrad) Cold iron Spear, Traveler's Cloak, Spell Components Spells: Always on--True Seeing, Freedom of Movement, Endure Elements, Protective Aura, Holy Aura, Magic Circle Against Evil, Lesser Globe of Invulnerabiltiy At will--Detect Evil, Daylight 3/day--Bless, Shield Other 1/day--Celestial Brilliance Cleric Spells (DC 21 + Spell level): (Domains: Mind, Domination) (0:6 / 1st:6+1 / 2nd:6+1 / 3rd:5+1 / 4th:3+1 / 5th:2+1) Aura of Courage 10ft.: +4 vs fear effects Aura of Good: Overwhelming Calming Aura 20ft.: As Calm Emotions Blessed Flesh: DC20 save or destroy attacking manufactured weapon Holy Purpose: +4 on attack rolls, ability checks, and skill checks when related to his redemption Holy aura: If an evil creature successfully hits with a melee attack, they are blinded as the spell. (DC29) Special Mount: As 5th level Paladin |
| #2carnivoreJun 04, 2008 21:38:33 | VOP is a fun feat to use ..... but many here find it weak compared to the Power you can get from equipment. still you can be effective with a VOP.... but remember, it means : NO Magic Weapons or Magic Items NO Holy Symbol even mundane items are Limited it is a very, VERY restrictive feat another question...... how are you getting so many Types and Subtypes?(i know Deathless is from Risen Martyr)Hellbred is a Race..not a type :D |
| #3cycadaJun 04, 2008 21:45:04 | Right, but the feat also gives your weapon a +5 enchantment and a good alignment when used, that's where I got that from. I believe (key word there) that an Sanctified Cold Iron Spear would fall within the rules. All it says is that I only get a single nonmagical, nonmasterwork simple weapon. The Sanctified descriptor isn't magical, nor does cold iron make it masterwork like Adamantine does, so I think that this is borderline legal. About the descriptors, a Hellbred is a Humanoid(Hellbred) so yes it is a descriptor. The Celestial and Eladrin come from the Perfection trait of the Risen Martyr's 10th level progression. And the deathless one comes from the 0th level of the same PrC. |
| #4carnivoreJun 04, 2008 21:53:30 | the VOP is very strict about what Mundane items you are allowed..... it gives a list of what you can have and what you cant have: IIRC, a Spear of any type is not on the list(the material is irrelavant...but, Special Materials are not allowed either) a better idea is to use Unarmed Strikes or use a Quarterstaff.... :D |
| #5altpersonaJun 04, 2008 22:46:13 | quarterstaff, two handed power attacking... |
| #6avatar_of_kraggJun 04, 2008 23:01:54 | VoP allows you to carry one simple weapon, which the Spear is. It is just suggested that a person would carry a quarterstaff to be used as a walking stick. |
| #7snexJun 04, 2008 23:11:01 | a crossbow is also a simple weapon, but i dont think anybody would consider that usable by a VoP character. there is definitely a line even among the simple weapons, and i think a spear is dead in the grey area. a battle spear is more than just a quarterstaff with a metal tip tied to it - it needs to withstand constant poking of thick skinned monsters. as a DM i would probably allow a "crude" spear which would give a -1 attack penalty or something to denote that what the guy is using really is just a quarterstaff with a metal tip tied on. |
| #8cycadaJun 05, 2008 3:00:03 | RAW a spear of special material is allowed, or atleast as far as I'm concerned. A crossbow would be useless in combination with the VoP because you couldn't carry bolts for it. Especially if the pictured Apostle of Peace can have a staff that looks like a musical instrument, and floaty scroll things, I don't see why I couldn't have a simple spear, haha. |
| #9echildaJun 05, 2008 5:29:50 | RAW a spear of special material is allowed, or atleast as far as I'm concerned. Doesn't a special material push the value of the item over 1GP meaning you cant own it under a VOP? |
| #10snexJun 05, 2008 8:42:10 | a spear is already over 1GP on its own... cold iron doubles the price. i would definitely not allow it. i fail to see how RAW it is allowable.. if a cold iron spear is RAW allowable, then so is a crossbow (and why wouldnt bolts be? they are simple weapons too). RAW says you must use "ordinary" simple weapons, which would rule out "special" materials, even though they are not explicitly mentioned in the parentheses. it also says "usually just a quarterstaff" - and this is in the rule itself, not the flavor text. in other words, it is DM's discretion. |
| #11pfootiJun 05, 2008 9:39:15 | Doesn't the 10th-level ability of Risen Martyr kill you? But seriously, in the right hands, a VoP is AWESOME. VoP works pretty well with Monks and Druids, since they don't have much to do with items anyway (monks don't use weapons or armor, druids get VoP bennies while wildshaped). There are some significant holes in the VoP, though. No epic progression (sad). Also, you fail to get certain other things that high-level adventurers get usually through magic items, such as Death Ward on your armor, the ability to Fly, a Freedom of Movement effect. If you can cover for some of those weaknesses through class abilities, you're golden. VoP also makes your life easier in one way: no worrying about what to buy from the MIC. In another way, you're in trouble. You rapidly run out of useful bonus exalted feats to take, and that's just annoying. Plus which, with the existence of the MIC and the new item stacking rules it has, it may end up being a better bet to just take the money and run, as they say. Still, druids are great with VoP. |
| #12cycadaJun 05, 2008 11:39:22 | Technically the 0th level of Risen Martyr kills you :D but in all seriousness, no it's when you reach level 21 that you ascend to a higher plane. One reason I'm not too worried about epic progression. As for the 1 gp limit, I don't recall seeing that limitation anywhere in the feat description. The only thing it says is that you can have ONE of each of the following: simple weapon, clothes, spell component pouch, 1 days food, and a backpack to carry it all in. This rules out a crossbow, as it says you can only have a single simple weapon (and doesn't say that you can have ammunition) The way I read it, the parenthesis are clarifying exactly what the wording means, and since it says "ordinary(nonmagical and nonmasterwork)" then I don't see a problem with having a cold iron spear, or even one with Sanctified. Flavor-wise, who's to say that one can't carve the runes of their patron deity into the haft of the spear, thus making it a sanctified weapon. Or if the church that they belong to blesses the weapon for them and does the same. It's non-magical, only consists of carvings and maybe holy water rituals, so truthfully I don't see too much of a problem with this. As for the Coldiron itself, I can see where that might be bending/breaking the rules since it is indeed a special material. But with that, it's not said in the feat description that special materials are banned specifically. While you couldn't have a spearhead of adamantine or mithral (because they would make it masterwork) I see no problem with one of a simpler and more common material such as coldiron. And really, who's to say that steel is the most common metal in the area, hehe. Your turn.Edit: About the Freedom of Movement, VoP gives it to you at a certain (albeit high) level. |
| #13straw_manJun 05, 2008 11:46:40 | Fairly sure there is a 1 gp limit. I'll look in my books tonightand post the relevent text if no one beats me to it. |
| #14snexJun 05, 2008 11:51:57 | there is no specific limit mentioned as far as im aware, and it does say you can have a spell component pouch which is 5gp. |
| #15heliomanceJun 05, 2008 11:58:09 | No, there is no 1GP limit. I've just looked it up. You are allowed: An unspecified number of simple weapons, to be neither magical nor masterwork. An unspecified number of sets of simple clothes, to be non-magical. Simple in this case is undefined. Enough food to sustain you for one (1) day. One (1) simple pack, which is to be non-magical. Simple in this case is undefined. One (1) spell component pouch. |