Horizon Tripper - surpasing magic - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Horizon Tripper - surpasing magic

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
tomada_dup
Feb 10, 2009 23:18:45 Hi, I'm asking for help again.

I'm building an Horizon Tripper for an arena the PCs will going to be fighting, I decided it would be an Horizon Tripper, with spiked chain. I is a very good build, but he will be fighting by himself against powerful opponents, like a Frenzied berserker and a Clericzilla, as well as a Battlesorceror who likes to melee while heavily buffed.

Just to clear things out It will be an controlled arena, where no one can actually die. Opponents start 40 feet away and have 3 round buff time. Everyone fights alone.

It will be a challenge for the PCs to face, which will net some rewards and to test their abilities more throughly for the next challenge I will throw then. (A very powerful necromancer in a demiplane created by genesis full of traps and undead critters, along other goodies)

My current build involves:
Ranger 1/ Fighter 4/ Horizon Walker 10/Holy Liberator 4/Exotic Weapon Master 1
Stats are: Str 18 (+4 from levels), Dex 10, Con 15(+1 level), Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 14

For feats I would take, in no particular order:

Endurance (prereq)
Iron Will (prereq)
Exotic weapon proficience (prereq)
Weapon Focus Spiked Chain (prereq)
Mageslayer (Complete Warrior)
Weapon Specialization (usually a good investment for anyone with several attacks a round, I have 5)
Sun school (dim door + hit, Dragon Ball style? SURE!)
Combat expertise
Improved trip
Power Attack
Close quarters fighting (complete warrior)
Blind fight
Quicken SLA

Now, you have noticed I listed 13 feats, and I have only 10 because I want to be a dwarf for a change, since I am ALWAYS human for the bonus feat, in Bold are the ones I think would be best for the character. Actually this is not my char, it will be an NPC but an important one at that!

What can I do? Can I get aditional feats without trouble? I wanted one level of Pious Templar in for metle, but I can't find a way to squeeze it in. And I don't know any gods with Spiked Chain as favored weapons. AND true believer is ANOTHER feat, bringing me to 3 feats I can't have. I need to chose the best ones, at the very least.

I though of going first level cleric, losing a point of BAB but gain access to very good wands and staffs, and I could use WAR domain with some deity that likes spiked chain and some other domain for another feat I need, but if I go cleric I need Knowledge domain to get Knowledge Geography in my build, which is not very good.

OR I could ditch Holy Liberator completely go Pious Templar 4 FIRST, then moving into Horizon Walker, put first I need some deity with Spiked Chain favored. and I lose the sweet cha to saves, although I could bump CON and WIS and make up for some of it dumping cha. But if I go this route I may want some divine feats, like divine might.

Additionally I was looking into ways to pierce magical protections. Things like invisibility, blur, displacement, flight, blink and everything. I know of the feats in complete arcane, but they send my already poor spellcasting to HELL and make my dim doors more fragile.

Googles of true seeing and boots of flying are a must. But what else?

I'm having him have some itens:

Potion of haste
Potion of Enlarge Person
Rod of Cancelation
Rod of Enemy Finding
Wand of freedom of movement
Ring of Spell Turning
Ring of Spell Storing
Rod of splendor (to bump cha, to saves)
A +5 Holy Aligned Magelaying Starmetal Spiked Chain
A +5 DeathWard Moderate Fortification Starmetal Full Plate of Etherealness

Anything I'm missing, will this character be bested by one single ability? Can it pose a threat ti melee, ranged and caster alike?

Thanks a lot!

BOOKS ALLOWED: PHB + DMG + Complete Arcane, Warrior, Divine and Adventurer. I have NO access to other books.

I will be thinking of the monster with class levels, but I will have to weight it or I endanger the contest, I WANT to give the PCs a run for their money, but not outright humiliate then.
#2
grifter730_dup
Feb 10, 2009 23:30:15 I'm curious, why are you building a tripper, when every single one of your opponent will be able to fly?
#3
phaedrusxy
Feb 10, 2009 23:34:51 Yeah, I think he's going to get owned in the face... hard. As a DM, you're usually better off taking some kind of already powerful monster, and adding a few class levels and expendable items that shore up its weaknesses and make its strengths even more overwhelming, rather than making some kind of humanoid NPC. Unless you're talking about an optimized full spellcaster NPC. Even then, depending on what you add it to, you might still be better off starting with a monster. The CR system, especially the non-associated class level stuff, totally changes the rules as far as how to optimize, compared to when you're using ECL as a PC.

For example, let's look at a cloud giant. They have 17 hit dice, but they're only CR 11, and wizard would certainly be a non-associated class. That means you could add 17 levels of wizard and he'd only be CR 20.Think about what a cloud giant could do with 17th level wizard buffs.
#4
tomada_dup
Feb 10, 2009 23:47:05
I'm curious, why are you building a tripper, when every single one of your opponent will be able to fly?

I though I could trip flying characters just fine! Cant I?

I though I could use Quicken SLA with dim door to full attack + dim door at the back of an enemy then trip plus free attack. Think of it as DBZ style FULL COMBO (7 attacks, including one trip at the last one, if enemy if flying it falls, then I dim door as a free action and hit again, possibly with a Bull Rush sending the enemy away, too cool to pass it)

Or at least dim door plus trip and free attack to bring it back to the ground...

If I can't the build loses it's charm. but I can't see why not.

And on the though of the monster with class levels, it could be good. I will see what I can do in the morning and the post another build for a monster or something.

Thanks for the tips! And I will update with some of the rules of the arena it will be playing in.

And remember, I don't want to humiliate the PCs and I will be facing one at a time in a controlled enviroment.
#5
grifter730_dup
Feb 11, 2009 0:39:08 Flying uses wings. Tripping is making someone lose their balance because you move their legs. To my knowledge, by RAW you can't trip a flying creature, at least not by the normal trip methods. The only way to make them fall down is to get rid of their ability to fly.
#6
8w_gremlin_dup
Feb 11, 2009 2:49:04 couldn't you do some kind of directed bull rush... and force them down?
#7
carnivore
Feb 11, 2009 4:14:26 Tripping Flying Creatures:

Q:
Being tripped makes you prone. Who can be tripped?
Beholders? Gelatinous cubes? What effect does tripping have on these creatures? Can a prone character be tripped again? What about flying and swimming creatures? Many creatures have neither legs nor any relationship to the ground or gravity. How does tripping affect them?

A:
Anything using limbs for locomotion can be tripped. Things that don’t need limbs for locomotion can’t be tripped. You can’t trip a snake, a beholder, or a gelatinous cube. You won’t find this in the rules, but then it really doesn’t need to be in there—the rules can leave some things to the DM’s common sense. A creature flying with wings can be “tripped,” in which case the creature stalls (see Tactical Aerial Movement on page 20 of the DMG). You can’t make an incorporeal creature fall down. You also can’t trip a prone creature. Creatures can’t be tripped when they’re swimming (the water holds them up). Likewise, a burrowing creature is driving its body through a fairly solid medium that serves to hold it up.

if it uses Wing to fly , it can be tripped while flying.... if it uses a Fly spell, it cant be trippied while flying

:D
#8
atomickitkat
Feb 11, 2009 4:30:09 As I recall, tripping a flying creature(only those that use wings, I think), means they're treated as "Stalled". If their manoeuvrability is below Average(?), they will fall(usually no damage unless you're somehow fighting from 20 feet off the ground).
#9
jenos
Feb 11, 2009 9:37:19
A winged creature can be tripped, and if it is, it falls as if it didn’t maintain its minimum forward speed.

Unfortunately, most magical flight for arena battles will be actual fly, not overland flight. That means that they will have a flight maneuverability of good, which doesn't have a minimum forward speed, so tripping becomes useless. And they don't have wings, but magical flight, so tripping is useless.
#10
BloodDragon
Feb 11, 2009 9:48:31
I though I could use Quicken SLA with dim door to full attack + dim door at the back of an enemy then trip plus free attack. Think of it as DBZ style FULL COMBO (7 attacks, including one trip at the last one, if enemy if flying it falls, then I dim door as a free action and hit again, possibly with a Bull Rush sending the enemy away, too cool to pass it)

Or at least dim door plus trip and free attack to bring it back to the ground...

Waaaay too many animes friend. Think you'd be hard pressed to trip Will'o'wisps or anyone under the fly spell aswell.

Also even though Settingsun School feat will allow you to attack after you appear beside an opponent, the D.Door spell still has that "Can't use any other actions until your next turn" stipulation. I'm not sure if that applies to Free actions but that cuts out at lest one of your D.Door routines.

Why All ten levels of HW too? Hard pressed I'd only stick around for 8 levels myself, unless your DM is letting you have a field day with the "Make your own Planar Terrains" option.
#11
PlzBreakMyCampaign
Feb 11, 2009 11:44:09
if it uses Wing to fly , it can be tripped while flying.... if it uses a Fly spell, it cant be trippied while flying :D

Sigh... so actually using wings to fly all your life (birth, template, graft, etc) is weaker than a dinky spell doing it for you... damn magic is OP or atleast horribly thought out in balance terms.
#12
atomickitkat
Feb 11, 2009 12:56:58
Waaaay too many animes friend. Think you'd be hard pressed to trip Will'o'wisps or anyone under the fly spell aswell.

Also even though Settingsun School feat will allow you to attack after you appear beside an opponent, the D.Door spell still has that "Can't use any other actions until your next turn" stipulation. I'm not sure if that applies to Free actions but that cuts out at lest one of your D.Door routines.

All Setting Sun does is let you get 1 attack off everytime you Dimension Door. So unless your weapon somehow has a "100% chance to proc Dimension Door when striking", no luck there.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tomada_dup Feb 10, 2009 23:18:45	Hi, I'm asking for help again. I'm building an Horizon Tripper for an arena the PCs will going to be fighting, I decided it would be an Horizon Tripper, with spiked chain. I is a very good build, but he will be fighting by himself against powerful opponents, like a Frenzied berserker and a Clericzilla, as well as a Battlesorceror who likes to melee while heavily buffed. Just to clear things out It will be an controlled arena, where no one can actually die. Opponents start 40 feet away and have 3 round buff time. Everyone fights alone. It will be a challenge for the PCs to face, which will net some rewards and to test their abilities more throughly for the next challenge I will throw then. (A very powerful necromancer in a demiplane created by genesis full of traps and undead critters, along other goodies) My current build involves: Ranger 1/ Fighter 4/ Horizon Walker 10/Holy Liberator 4/Exotic Weapon Master 1 Stats are: Str 18 (+4 from levels), Dex 10, Con 15(+1 level), Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 14 For feats I would take, in no particular order: Endurance (prereq) Iron Will (prereq) Exotic weapon proficience (prereq) Weapon Focus Spiked Chain (prereq) Mageslayer (Complete Warrior) Weapon Specialization (usually a good investment for anyone with several attacks a round, I have 5) Sun school (dim door + hit, Dragon Ball style? SURE!) Combat expertise Improved trip Power Attack Close quarters fighting (complete warrior) Blind fight Quicken SLA Now, you have noticed I listed 13 feats, and I have only 10 because I want to be a dwarf for a change, since I am ALWAYS human for the bonus feat, in Bold are the ones I think would be best for the character. Actually this is not my char, it will be an NPC but an important one at that! What can I do? Can I get aditional feats without trouble? I wanted one level of Pious Templar in for metle, but I can't find a way to squeeze it in. And I don't know any gods with Spiked Chain as favored weapons. AND true believer is ANOTHER feat, bringing me to 3 feats I can't have. I need to chose the best ones, at the very least. I though of going first level cleric, losing a point of BAB but gain access to very good wands and staffs, and I could use WAR domain with some deity that likes spiked chain and some other domain for another feat I need, but if I go cleric I need Knowledge domain to get Knowledge Geography in my build, which is not very good. OR I could ditch Holy Liberator completely go Pious Templar 4 FIRST, then moving into Horizon Walker, put first I need some deity with Spiked Chain favored. and I lose the sweet cha to saves, although I could bump CON and WIS and make up for some of it dumping cha. But if I go this route I may want some divine feats, like divine might. Additionally I was looking into ways to pierce magical protections. Things like invisibility, blur, displacement, flight, blink and everything. I know of the feats in complete arcane, but they send my already poor spellcasting to HELL and make my dim doors more fragile. Googles of true seeing and boots of flying are a must. But what else? I'm having him have some itens: Potion of haste Potion of Enlarge Person Rod of Cancelation Rod of Enemy Finding Wand of freedom of movement Ring of Spell Turning Ring of Spell Storing Rod of splendor (to bump cha, to saves) A +5 Holy Aligned Magelaying Starmetal Spiked Chain A +5 DeathWard Moderate Fortification Starmetal Full Plate of Etherealness Anything I'm missing, will this character be bested by one single ability? Can it pose a threat ti melee, ranged and caster alike? Thanks a lot! BOOKS ALLOWED: PHB + DMG + Complete Arcane, Warrior, Divine and Adventurer. I have NO access to other books. I will be thinking of the monster with class levels, but I will have to weight it or I endanger the contest, I WANT to give the PCs a run for their money, but not outright humiliate then.
#2 grifter730_dup Feb 10, 2009 23:30:15	I'm curious, why are you building a tripper, when every single one of your opponent will be able to fly?
#3 phaedrusxy Feb 10, 2009 23:34:51	Yeah, I think he's going to get owned in the face... hard. As a DM, you're usually better off taking some kind of already powerful monster, and adding a few class levels and expendable items that shore up its weaknesses and make its strengths even more overwhelming, rather than making some kind of humanoid NPC. Unless you're talking about an optimized full spellcaster NPC. Even then, depending on what you add it to, you might still be better off starting with a monster. The CR system, especially the non-associated class level stuff, totally changes the rules as far as how to optimize, compared to when you're using ECL as a PC. For example, let's look at a cloud giant. They have 17 hit dice, but they're only CR 11, and wizard would certainly be a non-associated class. That means you could add 17 levels of wizard and he'd only be CR 20.Think about what a cloud giant could do with 17th level wizard buffs.
#4 tomada_dup Feb 10, 2009 23:47:05	I'm curious, why are you building a tripper, when every single one of your opponent will be able to fly? I though I could trip flying characters just fine! Cant I? I though I could use Quicken SLA with dim door to full attack + dim door at the back of an enemy then trip plus free attack. Think of it as DBZ style FULL COMBO (7 attacks, including one trip at the last one, if enemy if flying it falls, then I dim door as a free action and hit again, possibly with a Bull Rush sending the enemy away, too cool to pass it) Or at least dim door plus trip and free attack to bring it back to the ground... If I can't the build loses it's charm. but I can't see why not. And on the though of the monster with class levels, it could be good. I will see what I can do in the morning and the post another build for a monster or something. Thanks for the tips! And I will update with some of the rules of the arena it will be playing in. And remember, I don't want to humiliate the PCs and I will be facing one at a time in a controlled enviroment.
#5 grifter730_dup Feb 11, 2009 0:39:08	Flying uses wings. Tripping is making someone lose their balance because you move their legs. To my knowledge, by RAW you can't trip a flying creature, at least not by the normal trip methods. The only way to make them fall down is to get rid of their ability to fly.
#6 8w_gremlin_dup Feb 11, 2009 2:49:04	couldn't you do some kind of directed bull rush... and force them down?
#7 carnivore Feb 11, 2009 4:14:26	Tripping Flying Creatures: Q: Being tripped makes you prone. Who can be tripped? Beholders? Gelatinous cubes? What effect does tripping have on these creatures? Can a prone character be tripped again? What about flying and swimming creatures? Many creatures have neither legs nor any relationship to the ground or gravity. How does tripping affect them? A: Anything using limbs for locomotion can be tripped. Things that don’t need limbs for locomotion can’t be tripped. You can’t trip a snake, a beholder, or a gelatinous cube. You won’t find this in the rules, but then it really doesn’t need to be in there—the rules can leave some things to the DM’s common sense. A creature flying with wings can be “tripped,” in which case the creature stalls (see Tactical Aerial Movement on page 20 of the DMG). You can’t make an incorporeal creature fall down. You also can’t trip a prone creature. Creatures can’t be tripped when they’re swimming (the water holds them up). Likewise, a burrowing creature is driving its body through a fairly solid medium that serves to hold it up. if it uses Wing to fly , it can be tripped while flying.... if it uses a Fly spell, it cant be trippied while flying :D
#8 atomickitkat Feb 11, 2009 4:30:09	As I recall, tripping a flying creature(only those that use wings, I think), means they're treated as "Stalled". If their manoeuvrability is below Average(?), they will fall(usually no damage unless you're somehow fighting from 20 feet off the ground).
#9 jenos Feb 11, 2009 9:37:19	A winged creature can be tripped, and if it is, it falls as if it didn’t maintain its minimum forward speed. Unfortunately, most magical flight for arena battles will be actual fly, not overland flight. That means that they will have a flight maneuverability of good, which doesn't have a minimum forward speed, so tripping becomes useless. And they don't have wings, but magical flight, so tripping is useless.
#10 BloodDragon Feb 11, 2009 9:48:31	I though I could use Quicken SLA with dim door to full attack + dim door at the back of an enemy then trip plus free attack. Think of it as DBZ style FULL COMBO (7 attacks, including one trip at the last one, if enemy if flying it falls, then I dim door as a free action and hit again, possibly with a Bull Rush sending the enemy away, too cool to pass it) Or at least dim door plus trip and free attack to bring it back to the ground... Waaaay too many animes friend. Think you'd be hard pressed to trip Will'o'wisps or anyone under the fly spell aswell. Also even though Settingsun School feat will allow you to attack after you appear beside an opponent, the D.Door spell still has that "Can't use any other actions until your next turn" stipulation. I'm not sure if that applies to Free actions but that cuts out at lest one of your D.Door routines. Why All ten levels of HW too? Hard pressed I'd only stick around for 8 levels myself, unless your DM is letting you have a field day with the "Make your own Planar Terrains" option.
#11 PlzBreakMyCampaign Feb 11, 2009 11:44:09	if it uses Wing to fly , it can be tripped while flying.... if it uses a Fly spell, it cant be trippied while flying :D Sigh... so actually using wings to fly all your life (birth, template, graft, etc) is weaker than a dinky spell doing it for you... damn magic is OP or atleast horribly thought out in balance terms.
#12 atomickitkat Feb 11, 2009 12:56:58	Waaaay too many animes friend. Think you'd be hard pressed to trip Will'o'wisps or anyone under the fly spell aswell. Also even though Settingsun School feat will allow you to attack after you appear beside an opponent, the D.Door spell still has that "Can't use any other actions until your next turn" stipulation. I'm not sure if that applies to Free actions but that cuts out at lest one of your D.Door routines. All Setting Sun does is let you get 1 attack off everytime you Dimension Door. So unless your weapon somehow has a "100% chance to proc Dimension Door when striking", no luck there.