So far I have:
- physically weak caster-type foes protected by meat shields and melee bodyguards
- golems to exploit immunity to spells and attack types
- foes with immunity to certain energy types (perhaps changeable types)
- some tricks with delayed teleport and delayed blast fireballs
- high level demons such as the Balor (destruction on casters ASAP)
- celerity, timestop, antimagic field, dimensional lock, contingencies (for boss fights)
- mixed encounters of waves of lower level monsters and more powerful boss monsters
- clever traps
I don't want to pull any punches on these guys so don't hold back. Bring your worst!
Or, 4d4+4 = 8-20. Average lv2 barbarian has 25 HP. These guys have three missiles...
Now, make a temple of, oh, Ashardalon. Pepper it with these. Add some meat shields for CR 3-4 challenges. Watch the HP drain away.
I've been playing around with the idea of a single big bad wizard, who uses lots of Simulacra and Astral Projections -- the players could fight the doombots --- er Simulacra, before even getting a glimpse of the big bad...
Fun low level encounter that cuases some real need for actual in game strategy.
We're getting together for several game sessions over the holidays and I'm putting together the mother of all adventures. My goal is to challenge and terrify my friends. I'm looking for monsters, tactics, and traps. They're a bunch of highly crafty minmaxers, optimizers, and power gamers. Please post your suggestions and insights. Any help is greatly appreciated.
So far I have:
- physically weak caster-type foes protected by meat shields and melee bodyguards
- golems to exploit immunity to spells and attack types
- foes with immunity to certain energy types (perhaps changeable types)
- some tricks with delayed teleport and delayed blast fireballs
- high level demons such as the Balor (destruction on casters ASAP)
- celerity, timestop, antimagic field, dimensional lock, contingencies (for boss fights)
- mixed encounters of waves of lower level monsters and more powerful boss monsters
- clever traps
I don't want to pull any punches on these guys so don't hold back. Bring your worst!
Let's start with revising your current ideas.
Barring spiked chain trippers and the like those 'meatshields' aren't actually protecting anything, and even with those they only do a half assed job. Stick to casters. They have real defenses and are thus safe and have crowd control and can thus keep enemies from even trying to test their defenses. Invis + flight is very basic for example. A level 3 can do this (though to be efficient with it, they'd need to be higher level). Putting in melee opponents is just giving free XP and loot to any competent party, much less an optimized one. Don't do that. The only way they can remotely be threatening is as a 'closet troll' aka coming out of nowhere with a high init charge or a Swift Hunter ambushing with Greater Manyshot in the surprise round. Those are just hi you die now kkthxbye. Don't do that either.
Golems are a joke to casters. Don't bother. Never use mindless opponents against competent parties. You're just giving them free XP and loot. 'Spell immunity' does not mean what you think it means.
Blasting is made of Fail. It's just damage, so it gets shaken off. Until the last HP is gone it doesn't matter one iota. Stick to real spells.
Properly made casters are going to shrug off spells very easily, even Fortitude based spells and even better than the beatsticks. Balors do not have Destruction. They do have Implosion, but you only need a +25 modifier at level 20 to pass 95% of the time. Luckily for you Implosion is not a death effect unlike the Destruction you confused it for. So you do at least ignore the standard immunity to death effects, energy drain, and inflict that the casters WILL have, though they still have to be corporeal which is not assured, and there is still the 95% chance of making it fail which isn't hard to bring about. I have an unoptimized caster 5 levels lower sitting on a +19, and that's before the +8 luck bonus as an Immediate action. Just getting the base bonuses and such would boost her to +22, and by then the luck bonus would be much higher. This is also not accounting for the inevitable accumulation of '
bonuses', which is Den speak for random other bonus types you pile on to help you. One spell, one ioun stone, and one luck stone and she has +25 without doing anything. Blocked by passive defense. Now if you can combine this with lots of save debuffing you might get somewhere.If Celerity, Time Stop, and Contingencies are in I can assure you flat out this will help them more than you as they have far more time to think of practical applications.
Anti magic field is a 10 foot radius effect centered on a high level caster. They've just shot off all their class abilities and then have to get within 10 feet using only mundane means to do anything to them. And of course, they can just move away. Thinking AMF works is A Trap. Again, employing this means free XP and loot.
Dimensional Lock is ok, but small area = move out. And it hurts the caster too.
Mixed encounters works if and only if they are highly buffed for survivability. Otherwise, see free XP.
Define 'clever traps'.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=299444
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=585544
http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-573800
The first one is just a bunch of premade NPCs and encounters, not necessarily optimized ones. The second and third were from the CO board, and so should be a bunch of optimized stuff.
If you use the War Weaver buffs correctly this should be an AWESOME fight even with lower level meat shields fighting your party.
Sneak wizards getting the drop on the players is also pretty fun. I try and habitually make my players roll spot or listen checks at random, even with nothing going on just to keep them paranoid and make it harder for them to notice when they're making them for a reason.
mimics are always fun, but wont really do much to a high level party.
I like to use physically strong monsters to hold the initial attention of pc's, then once battle is joined the "hit squads" make their presence known. Good tactics for hit squads are to debuff pc's with (greater/chain/reaving) dispel magic, assay resistance, MDJ, Waves of exhaustion. Then hit them with mean spells and ambush style melee. Preferred kill order for intelligent opponents is cleric first so he can't vex you by bringing back his fallen companions, then go after the remaining PC's in an order from most vulnerable to least. Make sure to either drop the wizard quickly or use dimensional anchor/lock etc to prevent them from escaping.
One of my favorites is to have 2 casters, the first hits a PC with a twinned avasculate, then another one hits him with a quickened enervation followed by power word:kill, that will have a good shot at dropping most pc's that don't have immunity to death effects.
High vaulted wall of force ceiling (120') with another one as the actual floor ; 3-5 foot thick cement floor on top of the WoF, free-floating ; BBEG caster speaks command word to activate as a free action (sub telepathic command if they like silence spells/effects), also triggering the contingency in the room to cast etherealness on said BBEG, activating the room's [i]reverse gravity[i/] trap.
Now the players have one round to avoid getting turned into paste on the top WoF, from that floating floor "falling" on them. You are ethereal, so you go through the wall, and if it's set up as a trap in the sense of Stronghold Builder's Guidebook (3.0 source, but the trap principle stands IMO), it is autohit with no save, as it has a one round onset delay. To make it even worse, perhaps have similar contingencies tied to it, such as more walls of force to cut off the other sides, and maybe a dimensional anchor triggered to go off with the casting of etherealness, effectively screwing teleporting as well. How's that sound?
also, MDJ allows magic items a will save to avoid being permanently disjoined.
HiPS in a magically shadowed room and Dust of Disappearance can be fun if you're simply not ready.
Earth Dreamer can be a REALLY annoying class to set them against too.
Blasting is made of Fail. It's just damage, so it gets shaken off. Until the last HP is gone it doesn't matter one iota. Stick to real spells.
So not true. Provisionally.
1. A Good DM isn't trying to KILL the players, per se.
2. In a solo situation, below level 6, blasting is in fact, one of the most efficient approaches to enemy disposal. BFC only works if you have someone else there to deal damage.
That being said, if you have a Caster specialist, maybe 4 "cheap" meat shields and so forth, BFC is probably the way to go.
Oh, and any encounter is made that much tougher with the inclusion of a single Bard.
Just for the record, True Seeing does not negate a hide check. Someone with True Seeing up still needs to win contested checks to see a stealthy character. It also doesn't negate Cover or most forms of Concealment (the things you need to make a hide check without some form of HiPS).
Which is exactly why a theif with a Cloak of Non-Detection was one of the most dangerous things around in 2E... good times...
If you're a fan of tactical combat Psychic vampires (from Libris Mortis) have always been a personal favorite of mine. Instead of draining levels they drain 1 point of Wisdom per round (Will save) to all living creatures in 10 feet, and they have a Wisdom drain Slam (No save) as a natural attack. As they are intelligent they would freely hit the party where it hurts them the most
Put say three of these guys in a room within reach of your party and sic two of them just on the cleric. Say he rolls terrible, fails all three saves, and they get their slams on him... that's potentially 15 points of Wisdom he's down after just one round.
Even if that fails they could always Dominating Gaze the nearest fighter or rogue and direct them to attack said cleric (and even flank with the vampire).
What's more, since they have a natural slam attack they threaten even when they appear unarmed so you could ready a slam attack to a caster or cleric, get the attack of opportunity and their regular attack to slam them twice.
Lastly, if for some reason they can't reach the casters (Spider-climb does make it easy, but if...) they can just summon several swarms of bats as a last resort... lets see you cast those spells now.
Consider tossing in caster or rogue levels with one or more of the vampires too, just for good measure. As a last resort, given their Fast Healing a particularly crafty vampire would have no qualms retreating from combat in gaseous form for a minute or so until he regained full health.
If any of this interests you read through Libris Mortis. Lots of variants and feets in there for buffing undead.
Chokers with class levels can be nasty indeed, druid and crusader are good examples for this, the standard actions are epic, and it's what? CR2 as a base? Druid isn't even straight optimal choice, so it's 0.75CR / level. Level 20 Choker Druid would be like, CR 17 encounter.
DMGII Has some traps, such as the one that springs stuff from ground to opponents' feet, dealing damage, immobilizing (Until succesfull str check.) and reducing movement by half until healing. Now, cope this with AoE spells that will deal damage every round.
Of course, Factotum NPCs with crapton of high level scrolls and Fonts of Inspiration are a sure way to make your players hate you. Try Disjunction a few times, follow up with Solid Fog and Cloudkill. :P
You are ethereal, so you go through the wall,
Er, Wall of Force blocks Ethereal.
Chronotyrym. Use the Time Stop SLA's and the extra turns from the ability. Cast fireballs while time stop is in effect. Should kill everything not immune to fire. No modifying the creature needed.
You can't do that without the Delay Spell feat (or using Delayed Blast Fireball), and I hope Fireball isn't the best thing you can come up with to do during those rounds...
that goes both ways, sometimes the optimizers are the douchebags, keeping a campaign in balance is not only the DM's responsibility and the players should have just as much interest in seeing the game continue as the DM does.
also, MDJ allows magic items a will save to avoid being permanently disjoined.
Except we're assuming these guys are just playing hardball, which means no firing the ball out of a rocket launcher at their crotch. Not only does Game Disjunction stranglehold the game by making all those rolls it's a permanent crippler, thus by using it you are invariably being a douchebag. Thus, you can expect it to quickly become an all out war with all the dirty tricks.
Senervi: He wants to challenge the players. That means no having enemies waste actions. Blasting = waste action. Does not impede party functionality in any way.
I've always thought that at the lowish mid levels, a greater barghest and a bunch of goblins could make a great ambush. The barghest's SLAs are perfectly made for this. You'd probably have to add a few rogue levels to the goblins, and advance the barghest, to challenge an 11+ level group, though.
And a wizard + a called Vrock could be very nasty. Vrocks have Teleport, Mirror Image, and Telekinesis at will. Have the mage cast a Chained Greater Magic Weapon on a bunch of oversized greatswords, which the Vrock then stabs the players with using Telekinesis. Give the Vrock Quicken SLA (Teleport) and Quicken SLA (Mirror Image) to allow it to play a nasty game of keep away (or some other way of taking an extra action per round). Do note that True Seeing only works up to 120 feet away, also, while Telekinesis is Long Range. I had posted this one in an old monster optimization thread, but didn't see it in any of the links I provided above...
Edit: Found the thread: http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-824890.html
There was a bunch of good stuff in there.
There is a half-dragon tyranosaurus with the pseudonatural template applied to it that was out of this world nasty for its CR. The author also said it had swallowed an item that let it make full attacks on a charge. :D
And I posted a phrenic fiendish giant spider that could be nasty in the right circumstances in there.
At level 9+, SR is mostly a joke. Either it's easily bypassable via assay resistance and Arcane Mastery or stupidly high and easily bypassable via most conjurations.
Also, even if your big bruisers are, well, big and bruising, that means nothing if they lose initiative. I once had a group of high level minions facing a party around level 21. Of the tens of minions we faced, only about 3 got a turn and only 1 was able to hurt the party. We promptly invested more resources after that and destroyed them before they could act.
If you're the DM, make custom creatures. People can casually reference a balor's stats, but an Annihilator mech- a giant hovering robot of doom- that has stats existing only on your computer may be a much greater threat, especially if can fire 12 times a round, each time as a touch attack.
To challenge and perhaps screw your PCs, determine tricks they rely on (stealth, polymorph, spell-based fire immunity) then have foes intelligent and resourceful enough to try to negate or strip these away ASAP! Blindsense is D&D's radar, and a powerful enough dispel will shut down the buff-o-matic.
an NPC companion that is actually working against them
Ok, this reminds me of something crazy that happened in a long-running campaign I was in. There was this NPC that had been with the group for a little while, and had finally started to gain our trust. He was along when our group found a Deck of Many Things. He took his turn, and as luck would have it, he drew the card that reverses your alignment...
The DMs eyes got really big, and he swore for about five minutes, then the NPC turned to us and said "Guys, there is something I have to tell you..." :D It turned out that he was an infamous assasin who had just been biding his time to murder us all in our sleep. After that, he turned himself in for his crimes, and was fit with some kind of "instadeath device" that the king controlled, and forced to be a mercenary for the king basically.
Edit: The guy was a badass fighter with some supernatural powers that allowed him to change his appearance, grow blades out of his arms, and dimension door at will. We'd fought him multiple times and hated his guts in-character, but didn't know he could change his appearance. So it was quite shocking and hiliarious when this happened. He remained a "good guy" for the rest of the campaign.
Ok, this reminds me of something crazy that happened in a long-running campaign I was in. There was this NPC that had been with the group for a little while, and had finally started to gain our trust. He was along when our group found a Deck of Many Things. He took his turn, and as luck would have it, he drew the card that reverses your alignment...
The DMs eyes got really big, and he swore for about five minutes, then the NPC turned to us and said "Guys, there is something I have to tell you..." :D It turned out that he was an infamous assasin who had just been biding his time to murder us all in our sleep. After that, he turned himself in for his crimes, and was fit with some kind of "instadeath device" that the king controlled, and forced to be a mercenary for the king basically.
I have something related. It occurs to one of the PCs that since everyone had been alone at least once it was possible some enemy took their place to get in Camp PC basically. They start testing each other for knowledge. Someone points out possession or domination or whatever would still give knowledge. Everyone gathers around the unicorn and associated Magic Circle except one PC. No one starts acting any differently once within the radius, thus no control.
The last character is basically making a total joke of being suspected as the enemy and is persisting despite having it pointed out it would be a good idea to have everyone else on their side to achieve an earlier stated personal goal... More stupid jokes instead of making any attempt to alleviate suspicion. At this point it's a coin toss as to who will kill the idiot first. My money is on the Maximized Twinned Split Ray Enervation for instant death with no saving throw as ranged touch attacks.
mimics are always fun, but wont really do much to a high level party.
If you can arrange for a fight to take place in an anti-magic field, a mimic can still be useful at high level.
Mimic +8 HD / justiciar 8 / exemplar 1; CR 16
A mimic automatically grapples a foe it hits with a slam attack without making a grapple check. When a justiciar of 8th level is grappling a foe, he can use an attack to attempt to hog-tie him using a use rope check against the enemy's grapple or escape artist check. The players’ AC and grapple modifiers shouldn’t be too high in an anti-magic field. This gives the mimic a decent chance of incapacitating a player in one round.
You should be able to arrange for the mimic to UMD a scroll of anti-magic field before the fight. If UMD is for some reason a problem, you could throw in a wizard level and the feat that allows you to take 10 on caster level checks, so you can activate the scroll without fail. One barbarian level for pounce is also an option. Rapid strike and improved rapid strike would improve your odds of taking a player down in one round. The mimic hit dice are quite mutable.
There is a half-dragon tyranosaurus with the pseudonatural template applied to it that was out of this world nasty for its CR. The author also said it had swallowed an item that let it make full attacks on a charge. :D
That brings back memories. I had a DM who used that against us.
Only use Mordenkainen's Game Disjunction if you don't mind vengeful players...
This also brings back memories. That same DM used Mordenkainen’s Disjunction on us in trap form repeatedly, and we didn’t have a party member who could deal with traps. He assigned the traps a challenge rating of 10.
I once tpk'd a team using a spellwarped dungeoncrashing minotaur backed up by a pair of pixie warlocks (an eldritch theurge and disciple respectively, though all I ever used was the eldritch blasts). Charger builds are very NPC friendly, and one that's being fueled by infinite eldritch batteries is even better.
Using enemies, even optimized is cool though. See, if you're a good DM, you don't have to resort to asshat measures to make your players hate the foes. You can just pimp out some demons and casters and the like.
Rust monsters are in the same group as MDJ. Basically if it exists for no purpose whatsoever except to inflict fates worse than death you are being an asshat and asking for your game to be destroyed violently. With an axe.
Bah, whatever. You sound like a big baby. As long as the DM gives you back enough treasure to make up for what you lost, it's fine. No rule says "No PC can ever lose a magic item. Ever." That's just stupid. The rules do say that you're supposed to have a certain amount of wealth. As long as the DM doesn't take that away and not give it back, it's perfectly fair and fair game, IMO.
I've had plenty of magic items destroyed on PCs I played. Sometimes I didn't like it, but as long as the DM let me get decent replacements, it was all fun. Even going with crappy magic items until I could restock was fun sometimes.
Of course, MDJ completely hoses fighters and their ilk alot more often than casters, who have good will saves and aren't as dependant on magic items. But then again, at the level where NPCs are tossing around 9th level spells, what doesn't?
This also brings back memories. That same DM used Mordenkainen’s Disjunction on us in trap form repeatedly, and we didn’t have a party member who could deal with traps. He assigned the traps a challenge rating of 10.
Sadly, that is by the book
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#crMagicTrap
Probably quite cheap as well as you wouldnt want any kind of reset mechanism on them (what with them self destructing on activation).
7650gp and 612 xp I make it.
:P
1) Foresight+Celerity for an instant beginning of combat standard action
2) Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic) combined with Invisible Spell metamagic (Cityscape), and PHBII/Incantrix for quicker metamagic for two spells per turn of your choice
3) Greater Arcane Fusion (and it's little brother) (Complete Mage) to easily attach a True Strike to a 7th level spell.
... is dangerous.
Deal 240 force damage to a PC and drop Disjunction, and it'll usually die (if the Cleric is still Flat Footed, you dont even need the Disjunction usually). If you have one or two of these Kobolds lurking around in a dungeon, jumping out of hiding occasionally, that presents a huge threat to the PCs. Saving throw skeeze doesn't help against Direct damage, nothing is immune to force, and you need HIGH touch AC to dodge true Striking Force Orbs.
another common way for a pc to lose all his magic items at high level is to die somewhere inconvinient and then get true resurrected when the party is back at a safe area. I think, though, that without the occasional threat of permanent PC death/setbacks/item loss, a high level campaign loses any real sense of risk, which is much of what makes the game fun.
Well, the Necro was trying to wipe out a city, and was practically halfway there.
I wrote about it in a thread somewhere, maybe in the DM board. it was quite crazy.
*edit* I think it's been pruned...
Er, Wall of Force blocks Ethereal.
You don't eth' through the Wall of Force. You eth' and let the wall come up, passing through it. The purpose for the second Wall is that it isn't free-floating, where as the stone one is, thus creating the trap.
Direct damage is only useless if you can't quickly deal enough of it to kill someone and then MDJ the Delay Death that inevitably gets put on them. Practically nothing can stop a Maximized, Twinned, True Striked Force Orb from hitting and dealing 120 damage in one action. A sorc using these (Kobolds with metagmagic skeeze do nicely) and extra action tricks, such as (but not limited to)
1) Foresight+Celerity for an instant beginning of combat standard action
2) Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic) combined with Invisible Spell metamagic (Cityscape), and PHBII/Incantrix for quicker metamagic for two spells per turn of your choice
3) Greater Arcane Fusion (and it's little brother) (Complete Mage) to easily attach a True Strike to a 7th level spell.
... is dangerous.
Deal 240 force damage to a PC and drop Disjunction, and it'll usually die (if the Cleric is still Flat Footed, you dont even need the Disjunction usually). If you have one or two of these Kobolds lurking around in a dungeon, jumping out of hiding occasionally, that presents a huge threat to the PCs. Saving throw skeeze doesn't help against Direct damage, nothing is immune to force, and you need HIGH touch AC to dodge true Striking Force Orbs.
Ok. Let's review. Maximized Twinned 4th level spell = 11th level spell just to do 120 piddly little damage. And it's two actions, since you said True Strike. Or you could just cast a 9th level spell and win the whole
encounter. Maybe even more than one encounter.MDJ is breaking your own stuff, thus in addition to being blatantly inferior to real spells you have to be an active liability to yourself and your group. You're also having to throw out a nova just to do some piddly little damage. Oh yeah, did I mention 12.5k = you now have a 50% chance to miss with any and all ranged attacks not made from a Seeking bow?
Also, we're talking level 17 or higher here. Explain how the hell they're even getting to do this much against a remotely competent party. You're making out as if they can just hide in the shadows. This isn't level 3.
Moving on...
Creature advancement is fun. But the only elemental that can actually be called level appropriate in such a case is air. The others can't fly, so they're just big bags of HP there to smack around beatsticks and anyone else that lacks flight and a valid ranged attack. It's the Tarrasque flaw.
I've always been amused by how terrain may be used by a smart (or at least not very stupid) monster. A large+ white dragon fought face to face on an even field may be easy for experienced players to fight, the same dragon ambushing the party on a frozen lake is another thing entirely.
About frozen lakes again.. I once had an encounter with our group on a frozen lake, with a few decent leveled wizards with some scrolls of higher level spells on them. Now, they surprised the PCs (They were scouting and prepared for them. This was around at level 8 or so.) who were riding horseback towards the BBEG's monastery.
Now, what happens? The wizards take their surprise round from Improved Invisibility: Shatterfloor under the group, ice shatters, they fall down to ice-cold water, forcewall where the ice USED to be. God the group hated me afterwards.
Other cool thing to do is a chasm. Now, about any group will try and fly over it. Then, a creature with natural flying ability shows up, with AMF around it..
Ok. Let's review. Maximized Twinned 4th level spell = 11th level spell just to do 120 piddly little damage. And it's two actions, since you said True Strike. Or you could just cast a 9th level spell and win the whole
While I agree with your other points, both you and he are forgetting the wonders of metamagic reduction. Pick up Piercing Cold, Lord of the Uttercold, Energy Substitution (Cold), Arcane Thesis (Orb of Fire), Metamagic School Focus (Conjuration), Sudden Maximize, Sudden Empower, and Twin Spell--with 2 flaws, a human wizard can get this by 9th level. Start with orb of fire, apply Energy Sub (Cold), then the other metamagics. That's a +0 from Piercing Cold, -1 from LotU, -1 from Energy Sub, +0 from Maximize, +0 from Empower, and +2 from Twin (using MSF on Twin).
Once per day, that 9th level caster can cast a 4th level spell that deals 132+10d6 cold and negative energy damage, ignores cold resistance, deals 3/4 damage to cold-immune creatures, and has a chance to daze next round if the target survives. Twice more per day, he can deal 22d6 cold/negative with the same effects. Add in Metamagic Rods, caster level boosters, and other things for more blasty goodness. While that's a horrible PC build, an NPC only needs to be able to do this once per day. The best part? It's easy to think up, easy to stat out, and a one- or three-shot enemy, so I can spend more time on the real enemies to mop up the rest of the party...which is now either down their CoDzilla or down a God arcane caster.
Not so shabby after all, huh? ;)
While I agree with your other points, both you and he are forgetting the wonders of metamagic reduction. Pick up Piercing Cold, Lord of the Uttercold, Energy Substitution (Cold), Arcane Thesis (Orb of Fire), Metamagic School Focus (Conjuration), Sudden Maximize, Sudden Empower, and Twin Spell--with 2 flaws, a human wizard can get this by 9th level. Start with orb of fire, apply Energy Sub (Cold), then the other metamagics. That's a +0 from Piercing Cold, -1 from LotU, -1 from Energy Sub, +0 from Maximize, +0 from Empower, and +2 from Twin (using MSF on Twin).
Once per day, that 9th level caster can cast a 4th level spell that deals 132+10d6 cold and negative energy damage, ignores cold resistance, deals 3/4 damage to cold-immune creatures, and has a chance to daze next round if the target survives. Twice more per day, he can deal 22d6 cold/negative with the same effects. Add in Metamagic Rods, caster level boosters, and other things for more blasty goodness. While that's a horrible PC build, an NPC only needs to be able to do this once per day. The best part? It's easy to think up, easy to stat out, and a one- or three-shot enemy, so I can spend more time on the real enemies to mop up the rest of the party...which is now either down their CoDzilla or down a God arcane caster.
Not so shabby after all, huh? ;)
Except you had to turn a God into a Fighter level One Trick Pony to do it, and it is still at best only on par with real spells out of the box. Thus still blatantly inferior.
If the DM is going to 'give back' treasure then what was the point of sending the embodiment of a DM middle finger at the party again?
BeCAUSE, maybe the party had, oh, a Candle of Invocation or a Sword of True Striking. Giving them back other treasure of equal wealth solves the problems such items cause, without depriving players of WBL.
Except you had to turn a God into a Fighter level One Trick Pony to do it, and it is still at best only on par with real spells out of the box. Thus still blatantly inferior.
Your typical random encounter doesn't need optimized NPCs. Optimizing the encounter means you only need the bad guys to do their specific task, and do it well enough to be a meaningful threat. If that means blasting, then blast away. Save the "optimized" NPCs for the boss fights.
Heck, just throw a group of warmages at the PCs. Nothing like pure mindless nukes to wreak some havok. People always scoff and damage spells in theory, until they realize there's enough in the air to put them under.
Snipped personal attacks. Have you kept track on WHOSE posts you're replying to?
Also, turning around and beating the out of some idiot that started attacking you for no reason is fair game.
Mmnh, maybe. PhaedrusXY did start. Still, it's bad form, and you're being offensive(ish) AND derailing the thread.
Snipped personal attacks. Have you kept track on WHOSE posts you're replying to?
Mmnh, maybe. PhaedrusXY did start. Still, it's bad form, and you're being offensive(ish) AND derailing the thread.
I'm tracking it. If you allowed Candles of Invocation and Swords of True Striking to exist that is a critical failure on your part. Thus my statement is accurate.
As for blasting, the number of blasting spells it takes to actually kill someone means you can't even be creative about throwing high level encounters at the party, and instead have to just Ogg Smash it with ECL + 10 encounters. This means you are only one step above 'Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies'. If you are competent you can have parties seriously threatened by stuff only 2 levels higher as a collective whole. And by seriously threatened I mean fairly good chance someone will die. If you're really being mean about it the routine (equal level) encounters aren't routine anymore.
Not kidding about the blasting. You're looking at 6 spells to kill someone with low HP and no particular resistances. Add Evasion, Resist Energy Mass, whatever...
Let's start with the obvious. Who the
A: Preventing them from doing damage this encounter, a fighter whose weapon is sundered is pretty much useless, meaning that sundering, and other such abilities, can work as a form of control. Same with destroying items that grant flight.
B: Destroying problematic items. If you were stupid enough to allow that continuous item of wraithstrike, and it's causing problems in power levels of characters, destrou it.
C: Balancing power level of the party. It is possible that a rogue or such has managed to get his hand on way too much stuff, and the rest on too little, due to creative use of sleight of hand and bluff, or nystul's magic aura or whatever. Disjunction away from being balanced, still.
D: In disjunction's case, getting rid of buffs in addition to items. It's really a powerful spell for dealing with DMM clerics, or incantatrixes with persist spell, or anything like that.
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I just came across a funny creature in Draconomicon: Squamous Spewer. Now, it didn't seem good at first glance, but it does have a roar 3/day that panicks creatures with less HD than it has. It's a CR7 encounter with 8HD, and the save DC on the base creature is 19 (10+4(½HD)+2(Ability Focus)+3(Ability Modifier)). (FORTIDUTE save, screws up wizards.). It also has area of 60ft spread centered on it. It doesn't specify duration either, so while assuming that it is permanent must be wrong, we can safely assume that it lasts around 10 minutes, or as long as the creature is alive. It seems to be based on fortidute, too.
Also: 3d6 damage breath attack once every 1d4 rounds, fires up to three such attacks at time, random damage type and either cone or line at random. Can't be exact same area, but that's still 9d6 damage, which is not bad.
Also: 6 bite attacks for 1d10+Str damage (Base +4), decent saves apart from reflex and +12 natural bonus to AC. Blindsense, Amorphous and bunch of other good stuff.
Now, assuming that we get rid of Combat Reflexes and Great Fortidute feats from the creature, add one level of Barbarian and go for Lion Totem variant (Pounce.), (Also, bonus feat for 9th HD), and add following feats: Sudden Ability Focus / Power Attack / Maximize Breath, it can be a serious threat. It is fair to assume that it can surprise an average team, too, with +17 Hide Check.
Surprise Round: Rage, Roar/Sudden Ability Focus: DC 23 FORT save or be panicked until the end of the encounter.
Round 1: Breath Weapon: 54 damage, reflex save DC 17 Half.
Alternatively, Roar again if the people made their saves.
Round 2: Charge, full attack the closest target: 6 attacks with +10 to hit (-4 Power Attack.) and dealing 1d10+10 damage each.
Keep it up with good attack routine as needed. If there's only one target left conscious/not panicked, grapple it.
B is called using idiocy to counter idiocy. All you've done is make your players hate you more and start looking for ways to actively screw with you.
C is called again use non asshat means of fixing the problem. Not bending the character over the table and sodomizing them is a good start. Lots of non Rogue applicable items perhaps? This might be solving an OOC problem IC, in which case see B.
D: Remember that Dispel? Chain it. Same thing, without the asshattery.
1: No need for dispel checks. This means that it's a LOT more dependable on, and will get rid of every buff for sure.
2: No somatic components, therefore usable in grapple effectively.
3: Larger area of effect.
4: Permanency > 1d4 rounds. 1d4 rounds might not be long enough to for example, fly away from the group of NPCs.
5: Might get rid of an AMF/Artifacts.
Also, from your attitude towards Disjunction, I believe that you are one of those who's been sodomized by it. :P
Let's put a few benefits of Disjunction over regular dispel here, shall we?
1: No need for dispel checks. This means that it's a LOT more dependable on, and will get rid of every buff for sure.
2: No somatic components, therefore usable in grapple effectively.
3: Larger area of effect.
4: Permanency > 1d4 rounds. 1d4 rounds might not be long enough to for example, fly away from the group of NPCs.
5: Might get rid of an AMF/Artifacts.
Also, from your attitude towards Disjunction, I believe that you are one of those who's been sodomized by it. :P
Ok, let's see...
Works as Dispel Magic. Hmmm...
You're actually getting grappled?
Larger area = higher chance to hit the wrong target, oops?
1d4 rounds = length of combat. If all you want is to negate the paraplegic for one encounter, Dispel does it. Also, teleport.
1% per CL = likely wasted action. Just use one of the many means of attacking through it to make the idiot regret his poor choice to use the damn thing, thinking it would actually help him. Same chance on an artifact except you need to save vs permanently gimped to uselessness character. Even if you pass, there's a 95% chance Rocks Fall, and You Die.
Note: Destroying artifacts is a dangerous business, and it is 95% likely to attract the attention of some powerful being who has an interest in or connection with the device.
Cool. So now a
God wants to kill you, since after all mortals cannot make artifacts, only deities can.As if that wasn't a hard enough kick to the balls, perhaps they have an artifact on their person and you don't know it...
Simpler to just ban the whole
spell, unless of course you don't mind long standing campaigns ending in an instant over random stupid crap.As for Disjunction and me, I filter my DMs the same way I filter all other people. Any stupid enough to not realize Disjunction = Epic Fael on either side of the screen I don't waste my time on. If however one did do that I could kick him in the face, followed by me using something appropriate like a Hammergun or failing this a PHB.
If you aren't a good enough DM that your players have fun and are absorbed in your story, even if they lose (or just lose some loot), then you aren't a good DM.
Also: Larger area is also good for hitting all of the opponents, who, if they aren't stupid, don't gather in small areas. Also: it ends the effect in way how dispel magic would, but without rolls. Dimensional Anchor is commonly used to keep BBEGs in combat. 1% per CL on optimized character is surprisingly nice. Also, as a DM, you are the one who decides whether something attracts attention, and it's very possible that the character using the disjunction was already sent by a god or some such to do just that; Destroy the artifact. It never said that the being would want to preserve the artifact. :p
I wouldn't use it as player, but as a DM you can control the effects well enough to use it.
I filter my players the same way I filter all other people. Anyone stupid enough not start crying over a spell used in a game I don't waste my time on. If, however, someone did do that.. Well, I could roundhouse kick him in his facial organs, and follow that up with using something appropriate, such as a maul, or failing that: Dungeon Master's Guide. Preferably open on the page that basically says: "As a DM you have ultimate power, you make the rules. Everyone who argues you is wrong."
What makes a given DM an asshat, or not, is him being one, or not. Use of any spell, feat, or tactic in a given campaign does not have any effect on the type of his hat.
If you aren't a good enough DM that your players have fun and are absorbed in your story, even if they lose (or just lose some loot), then you aren't a good DM.
There's challenge and there's
with. Challenging players means optimized clever encounters, whatever. with is still like Rust Monsters, Game Disjunction, whatever which just means you're whipping it out and taking tweezers to it at the table. No one wants anything to do with that trash.No one wants anything to do with that trash.
Obviously that's not true, given the responses here.
Advancement rules are fun. 8 48HD elementals are an encounter level 23.
You son of a ....... "damn"
The funny thing is that my 14th level fighter is probably going to tear them the hell apart. Dealing something like 1/2 of their HP per round. To all of them. Took a while to get that build though. A looooong while.
Also, Rust monsters are a joke that affects only low level garbage PCs.
It's like all of a sudden the people playing D&D forgot that they're supposed to be silly nerds.
You can only rust iron. Adamantine and Mithril aren't rustable, so go around pulping in the skulls of those 150 HD Rust monster.
Also... Rust monsters can.... rust gold. Lulz. The one metal that can't be rusted, and they mention it. Stupid writers.
As for the people who support the use of MDJ,
Have you guys actually used it properly?
Everything that is magical on a character needs to be rolled for.
This means scrolls, potions, wands, items, back-up items, every weapon in the fighter's golf-bag etc. etc. etc.
This tends to require at least 6 rolls in a very low level party that picks up or has little in the way of gear.
For a higher level party, this can mean rolling fifty dice per player.
That's why it's called "Game Disjunction." The game is pretty much over for that session.
Congratulations, you're getting evicted!
Also, Rust monsters are a joke that affects only low level garbage PCs.
It's like all of a sudden the people playing D&D forgot that they're supposed to be silly nerds.
You can only rust iron. Adamantine and Mithril aren't rustable, so go around pulping in the skulls of those 150 HD Rust monster.
Also... Rust monsters can.... rust gold. Lulz. The one metal that can't be rusted, and they mention it. Stupid writers.
Perhaps the rust monsters excrete nitric acid? Or... I dunno... magic or something.
That would be unreal (rather... surreal). Seeing as Nitric is a pretty strong acid.
Acid Flasks probably having something like Nitric Acid in them, and if they have Hydrochloric, then Rust Monsters must do a boatload of Acid damage per attack. Yet they don't.
I think that simply restricting Rust Monsters to iron is more than enough. They're a nuisance for normal people, and PCs are needed to deal with them. Either with wooden weapons and being high level, or just using mithril, alchemical silver or adamantine weapons.
I'm tracking it. If you allowed Candles of Invocation and Swords of True Striking to exist that is a critical failure on your part. Thus my statement is accurate.
Well, yes. But this can be handled in-game. With Rust Monsters or Ethereal Filchers, or just Sunder.
The point is, gear is not, and shouldn't be, sacred.
As for blasting, the number of blasting spells it takes to actually kill someone means you can't even be creative about throwing high level encounters at the party, and instead have to just Ogg Smash it with ECL + 10 encounters. This means you are only one step above 'Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies'. If you are competent you can have parties seriously threatened by stuff only 2 levels higher as a collective whole. And by seriously threatened I mean fairly good chance someone will die. If you're really being mean about it the routine (equal level) encounters aren't routine anymore.
No, no. You can easily threaten a party with an equal ECL encounter, using critters with CR around Party Level -5. The action count is trivial since you could easily have 5-6 blasters in field at once. 4 tanks, 2 sneaks + 1 boosting leader is quite solid vs. most 4-5 person parties. Alternatively, 3 defenders for each artillery is quite decent.
Not kidding about the blasting. You're looking at 6 spells to kill someone with low HP and no particular resistances. Add Evasion, Resist Energy Mass, whatever...
The point is to NOT kill the PCs. Anything that insta-gibs or takes a player out of combat is (a lot of the time) not fun. There are exceptions, but generally this is the case. Blasting is safe in that it whittles down PC HP, and makes them feel threatened, but gives sufficient warning before dropping death on them.
As for the people who support the use of MDJ,
Have you guys actually used it properly?
Everything that is magical on a character needs to be rolled for.
This means scrolls, potions, wands, items, back-up items, every weapon in the fighter's golf-bag etc. etc. etc.
This tends to require at least 6 rolls in a very low level party that picks up or has little in the way of gear.
For a higher level party, this can mean rolling fifty dice per player.
That's why it's called "Game Disjunction." The game is pretty much over for that session.
yes, I'll probably use it soon in my ECL 17 campaign, here's how it will probably go.
first off all the players have a +20 or higher will save-- 2 of the party are multiclassed casters so they are well over +30 and could only fail only on a 1. The other 2 are optimized melee using tome of battle so they just use moment of perfect mind, diamond defense, etc and have 20 ranks in concentration and a fairly high wisdom mod, so they can only fail with like a 4 or lower, in which case they probably use iron heart focus to reroll. Unfortunately maneuvers have to be refreshed so they won't be able to use them for all their items, however, they both have a belt of battle and can probably just activate it to move out of the AOE or line of effect. Even if this isn't the case I think their base will saves are in the 20's so they still have a fairly good shot at a DC in the low 30's.
MDJ is a powerful spell but still has it's limits. Most of the PC's items that aren't worn on their person are in their Heward's Handy Haversack. Since MDJ wasn't cast using the Transdimensional spell feat it can't affect items in an extradimensional space.
50 items per character is a little on the high side even at this level. Most PC's prefer to collect more powerful items rather than walking around with a ton of crappy ones. I would say each PC has on average 15-20 items not in his extradimensional bag. Rolling 15-20 will saves takes a few minutes but in a game this level is hardly unheard of, it's not uncommon for the wizard to need to roll 40d6 to tally his damage from a failed save against disintegrate.
So as you can probably guess each PC will make almost all the saves, only losing 1-2 items on average, although most of them have a way to reroll a save if they botch the roll on an important item.
Finally this is all assuming the MDJ even successfully gets cast. The party wizard is a FS Abjurer/Abjurant Champion/IoTSV/Master Specialist/Archmage and can usually take an immediate action (duelward, battlemagic perception) to use greater dispelling and counter any caster below CL 30 or so, in this case the spell is reflected back at it's caster due to Archmage Mastery of Counterspelling, which he is pretty likely to do as soon as he finds out MDJ is headed his way.
So my contention is that when dealing with an optimized group MDJ is still a powerful spell but hardly a game breaker. If your party isn't this optimized, a suggestion I'd make is to use the version of MDJ from Pathfinder which only permanently disjoins items if they roll a 1 on the save when using the AOE disjunction mode.
MDJ is a powerful spell but still has it's limits. Most of the PC's items that aren't worn on their person are in their Heward's Handy Haversack. Since MDJ wasn't cast using the Transdimensional spell feat it can't affect items in an extradimensional space.
It's also a Burst, needing Line of Effect. This means, that anything worn underneath armor or gauntlets, or with sufficient cover, is unaffected.
In the past, we have taken this to mean that spells from Clerics are cut off completely, thus nixing half the spellcasting (and all the healing) in the party. Even if that's not the case, it still means that there's no turning, so mindless undead go up a few threat levels. If the party figures it out, they still have to destroy their own god's statue, which is fun, too.
Great in combination with other threats.
Well, yes. But this can be handled in-game. With Rust Monsters or Ethereal Filchers, or just Sunder.
The point is, gear is not, and shouldn't be, sacred.
Only in games where infinite gold =/= infinte power.
As it stands, the core rules and monsters in the 3.5 iteration of D&D require certain items for PCs to even be playable. Read your MM and compare an ungeared PC to them, combat doesn't work.
It should be also noted that the Elite Array is considered the baseline for PC stats. In games with much higher base stats, you can get away without magic items for a long time.
I've done that, I had a game where I didn't need to start giving out +1 weapons or armour until level 6-7.
yes, I'll probably use it soon in my ECL 17 campaign, here's how it will probably go.
Ok.
it's not uncommon for the wizard to need to roll 40d6 to tally his damage from a failed save against disintegrate.
Why is your level 17 (or perhaps 16) Wizard using a level 11 Wizard's spell?
Why aren't they just ending fights?
Here is the stats of one of them as a sample. Let me know if you are interested, I can post the other 2 as well.
Show
Long ago bound to the will of the demon Karthaxes, centuries within the Abyss have corrupted the elemental now known as Ebon Inferno. The fires of Ebon Inferno burn one minute with the orange and yellow flames of a normal fire elemental and another with a black that seems to eat the light, rather than generate it.
The most intelligent of the elementals that Karthaxes bound, Ebon Inferno is the defacto leader of the trio.
Ebon Inferno CR 16
Elder Fire Elemental Warblade 5
CE Huge Elemental (Fire)
Init +15; Senses Darkvision 60 ft, blindsense 30 ft (w/stance); Listen +22, Spot +22
Languages Ignan, Auran, Abyssal, Celestial
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AC 26 (-2 size, +10 Dex, +8 natural), touch 18, flat-footed 16; uncanny dodge
hp 343 (29 HD); DR 13/--
Immune Fire, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, flanking, and critical hits
Fort +22 (12), Ref +26 (15), Will +16 (9)
Vulnerable Cold
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Speed 60 ft. [12 squares], fly 60 ft w/rising phoenix stance (10 ft only)
Melee Slam +31 (2d8+10 plus 2d8 fire) or
Melee Volcano edge +37/+32/+27/+22 (3d8+18+1d6 fire/17-20)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Base Atk +23; Grp +41
Atk Options Burn (Reflex DC 29), Battle Ardor (+1 to confirm criticals); Power Attack, Resounding Blow (Will DC 25), Combat Reflexes
Special Actions Recover maneuvers
Maneuvers and Stances Known (IL 17th):
Stances - stance of clarity (1st), hearing the air (5th), rising phoenix (8th)
Strikes - *searing charge (4th), greater insightful strike (6th), #diamond nightmare blade (8th), #time stands still (9th)
Boosts - *burning blade (1st), #quicksilver motion (7th)
Counters - *fire riposte (2nd), moment of alacrity (5th), #diamond defense (8th)
Disciplines: Diamond Mind, Desert Wind
# - maneuver readied (4), * - 1/encounter
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Abilities Str 30, Dex 30, Con 24, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 10
SQ Special Qualities Fire immunity, cold vulnerability, elemental traits, battle clarity, battle ardor
Feats Improved Initiative(b) Weapon Finesse(b), Martial Study (Burning Blade), Power Attack, Martial Study (Fan the Flames), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword), Improved Critical (bastard sword), Martial Study (Searing Charge), Resounding Blow, Great Constitution, Damage Reduction, Martial Stance (Rising Phoenix), Combat Reflexes (w)
Skills Concentration +39 (20 + 12cc), Intimidate +7 (10 cc), Listen +12 (13), Speak Language (2), Spot +12 (13), Tumble +15 (5)
Possessions Gem of Tia'arak (grants one diamond mind stance, forms from body after fight), Volcanic Edge (Living Fire).
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"Smoke blinds, dirt soils, but fire burns..."
The most intelligent of the elementals that Karthaxes bound, Ebon Inferno is the defacto leader of the trio.
Ebon Inferno CR 16
Elder Fire Elemental Warblade 5
CE Huge Elemental (Fire)
Init +15; Senses Darkvision 60 ft, blindsense 30 ft (w/stance); Listen +22, Spot +22
Languages Ignan, Auran, Abyssal, Celestial
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AC 26 (-2 size, +10 Dex, +8 natural), touch 18, flat-footed 16; uncanny dodge
hp 343 (29 HD); DR 13/--
Immune Fire, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, flanking, and critical hits
Fort +22 (12), Ref +26 (15), Will +16 (9)
Vulnerable Cold
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Speed 60 ft. [12 squares], fly 60 ft w/rising phoenix stance (10 ft only)
Melee Slam +31 (2d8+10 plus 2d8 fire) or
Melee Volcano edge +37/+32/+27/+22 (3d8+18+1d6 fire/17-20)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Base Atk +23; Grp +41
Atk Options Burn (Reflex DC 29), Battle Ardor (+1 to confirm criticals); Power Attack, Resounding Blow (Will DC 25), Combat Reflexes
Special Actions Recover maneuvers
Maneuvers and Stances Known (IL 17th):
Stances - stance of clarity (1st), hearing the air (5th), rising phoenix (8th)
Strikes - *searing charge (4th), greater insightful strike (6th), #diamond nightmare blade (8th), #time stands still (9th)
Boosts - *burning blade (1st), #quicksilver motion (7th)
Counters - *fire riposte (2nd), moment of alacrity (5th), #diamond defense (8th)
Disciplines: Diamond Mind, Desert Wind
# - maneuver readied (4), * - 1/encounter
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Abilities Str 30, Dex 30, Con 24, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 10
SQ Special Qualities Fire immunity, cold vulnerability, elemental traits, battle clarity, battle ardor
Feats Improved Initiative(b) Weapon Finesse(b), Martial Study (Burning Blade), Power Attack, Martial Study (Fan the Flames), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword), Improved Critical (bastard sword), Martial Study (Searing Charge), Resounding Blow, Great Constitution, Damage Reduction, Martial Stance (Rising Phoenix), Combat Reflexes (w)
Skills Concentration +39 (20 + 12cc), Intimidate +7 (10 cc), Listen +12 (13), Speak Language (2), Spot +12 (13), Tumble +15 (5)
Possessions Gem of Tia'arak (grants one diamond mind stance, forms from body after fight), Volcanic Edge (Living Fire).
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"Smoke blinds, dirt soils, but fire burns..."
Martial Adept levels + monster = win. I like using Warblade with War Trolls personally. Create a small team of badasses. They end up with low saves (only about 20 or so at CR 15) but there's counters for that.
what you siad give you everthing you got? :D :P
I'm running a heavily modified version of Anauroch the empire of shade, here's a EL 20 encounter as I rate it in my game, the aforementioned party just beat this one and I had multiple players tell me it was a very fun challenge. Note that NPC templates and MM entries have been modified to fit my needs and there may be some inconsistancies from RAW. This was originally 2 encounters (the phaerimm and his Mind Flayer anarchist guards, and the faceless Incanter and his krinth guards) but the PC's alerted them and left the dungeon, at which point the 2 encounters merged to better guard the remaining areas.
The Faceless Incanter
EL 20
Male Half-elf Shade (Shadow Simulacrum) Sorcerer5/Shadow Adept10/Incantatrix5
NE Medium Construct
Languages: Common, High Netherese, Loross, Espruar, Draconic, Elven, Infernal, Abyssal, Ignan, Dwarven
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AC: 25 (29) (7 armor+5 dex+3 natural(+4 deflection))
HP: 140 (160) (HD 20d4+80(100))
Resistances:
Saves: Fort+7 Reflex+12 Will+18 (+4 luck bonus in darkness)
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Speed: 30' (50')
Melee: no
Ranged:
BAB:+9
Grapple:
Attack Options:
Notes:
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Spells(Sorcerer)
1st-9/day 5 Karmic Aura, Ray of Enfeeblement, Reaving Aura, Ectoplasmic Armor, Shock and Awe
2nd-9/day 5 Resist Energy, Alter Self, False Life, Shroud of Undeath, Escalating Enfeeblement
3rd-9/day 4 Ray of Exhaustion, Fly, Major Image, Karmic Backlash
4th-8/day 4 Enervation, Bloodstar, Greater Resistance(xxx), Ruin Delver's Fortune
5th-8/day 4 Wrack, Dominate Person, Channeled Lifetheft, Wall of Force
6th-8/day 3 Karmic Retribution, Guards and Wards, Superior Resistance (x)
7th-8/day 3 Necrotic Curse, Avasculate, Ironguard
8th-7/day 3 Chain Dispelling, Symbol of Insanity, Greater Arcane Fusion
9th-7/day 3 Energy Drain, Wail of the Banshee, Power Word Kill
CL= 20th
Save DC= 21+level, 23+ level for necromancy
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Abilities: Str 10 Dex 20 Con - Int 26(32) Wis 14 Cha 18(20)
Special Qualities: Construct Traits, Shadesight, Shadow Defense+3, Greater Shield of Shadows 20 rounds/day, Shadow Walk 1/day, Shadow Double 1/day,
Cooperative Metamagic, Metamagic Effect, Metamagic Spell Trigger
In darkness: Fast Healing 2, Invisibility 1/round(CL 20), Control light, Shadow Image 3/day, Shadow Stride, Shadow Travel 1/day, SR 31
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Feats: Extend Spell(1st), Shadow Weave Magic(3rd), Tenacious Magic, Pernicious Magic, Insidious Magic (5th, bonus), Craft Wondrous Item(6th),
Spell Focus: Necromancy(9th), Spell Penetration(12th), Greater Spell Focus:Necromancy(15th), Persistent Spell(16th, bonus), Craft Staff(18th), Heighten Spell(19th, Bonus)
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Skills: +4 Listen and Spot and +8 Hide and Move Silently in darkness
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Possessions: Staff of Night*(17 Charges), Bracers of Armor+7*, Amulet of Natural Armor+3*, Headband of Intellect+6*,
Tome of Intelligence+5(virtual, used), Vest of Resistance+2
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Notes: With buffs AC 32(34), +3 luck bonus to all saves
3 Krinth Dragoons
Male Krinth Rogue2/Warblade3/Swordsage4/GhostFaced Killer7
Neutral Evil Medium Humanoid (Extraplanar)
Languages: Netherese
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Initiative: +14
AC: 30(32) (6 armor+5 dex+3 wis+5 natural+1 deflection(+2 dodge)
HP: 162 (HD 2d6+11d8+3d12+80)
Resistances:
Saves: Fort+17 Ref+23 Will+13
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Speed: 40' (45 in dark)
Melee: +1 Deadly Precision Spiked Chain +23/+18/+13 melee (2d4+14x2)
Ranged: MMWC Longbow +19/+14/+9 ranged (1d8+4 ranged, x3)
BAB: +13
Grapple: +18
Attack Options: Maneuvers, Frightful Attack 2/day
Notes: Sneak Attack+(up to 5)d6+16, Sudden Strike+2d6, +1 to confirm crits
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Maneuvers(Swordsage) Moment of Perfect Mind, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Burning Blade,
Sudden Leap, Counter Charge, Mind over Body , Shadow Garotte, Obscuring Shadow Veil, Pouncing Charge
IL= 10th
Stances: Child of Shadow, Assassin's Stance
4
Maneuvers(Warblade): Moment of Perfect Mind, Leading the Attack, Sudden leap, Emerald Razor, White Raven Tactics
IL=9th
Stances: Hunter's Sense
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Abilities: Str 22(26) Dex 18(20) Con 18 Int 12 Wis 16 Cha 5
Special Qualities: Trapfinding, Evasion, Quick to Act +2, Discipline Focus:Shadow Hand(Weapon Focus,Insightful Strikes), Battle Clarity(reflex saves,
crit confirmation), Uncanny Dodge, AC Bonus,Ghost Step 3/day (Invisible, Ethereal), Ghost Sight
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Feats: Power Attack(1st), Improved Initiative(3rd), Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain(6th), Shadow Blade(9th),
Staggering Strike(9th), Craven(12th), Leap Attack(15th)
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Skills: Concentration +23 Hide +36 Jump +31 Intimidate +9 Move Silently +27 Tumble +18 (-1 ACP)
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Posessions: Gloves of Dexterity+2, Belt of Strength+4, +1 Shadow Mithril Breastplate*, +1 Deadly Precision Spiked Chain*,
Amulet of Natural Armor+1, Ring of Protection+1, MW Mighty(+4) Composite Longbow, 20 arrows,
Boots of Striding and Springing*
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Notes: With recitation, righteous wrath of the faithful, mass shield of faith AC 36(38)(+3 luck, +3 deflection) Saves all +3 luck bonus,
Spiked Chain +29/29/24/19 melee (2d4+17)
2 Krinth Elite Bodyguards
Male Krinth Fighter8/Crusader8
Neutral Evil Medium Humanoid (Extraplanar)
Languages: Common, Low Netherese
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Darkvision 60'
Init:+4
AC: 31 (33) (11 armor+3 dex+ 5 shield+ 1 natural+1 deflection(+2 dodge))
HP: 201 (HD 12d8+4d12+80)
Resistances:
Saves: fort 21 Ref 10 Will 12
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Speed: 30 (35)
Melee: +1 Keen Adamantine Heavy Pick +27/+22/+17/+12 melee (1d8+12, 19-20x4) or +1 Keen Adamantine Heavy Pick +25/+20/+15/+10 melee
and +2 Spiked Heavy Steel Shield +23 melee(1d8+10)
Ranged: no
BAB: +16
Grapple: +23
Attack Options: spiked armor
Notes: Immune to being shaken, +4 to shadow spell saves and fear,
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Maneuvers(Crusader) Shield Block(DS2), Defensive Rebuke(DS3), White Raven Strike(WR4), White Raven Tactics(WR3), Divine Surge(DS4),
Doom Charge(DS5), Rallying Strike(DS6), Order Forged From Chaos(WR6)
Stances Iron Guard's Glare (DS1), Tactics of the Wolf(WR3), Press the Advantage(WR5)
IL= 14th
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Abilities: Str 20(24) Dex 16(18) Con 21(23) Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 4
Special Qualities: Furious Counterstrike, Steely Resolve 15, Indomitable Soul, Zealous Surge, Smite 1/day,
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Feats: Weapon Focus: Heavy Pick(1st), Shield Specialization (1st, bonus fighter), Improved Shield Bash(2nd, Bonus Fighter),
Agile Shield Fighter(3rd), Weapon Specialization:Heavy Pick (4th, Bonus fighter), Combat Reflexes(6th), Power Attack(6th, Bonus Fighter,
Improved Sunder(8th, bonus fighter)Melee Weapon Mastery(9th),Steadfast Determination(12th), Vexing Flanker(15th)
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Skills: Martial Lore +9, Climb +11 Jump+7 Intimidate+0(4) Hide+7
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Posessions: +3 Spiked mithril Full Plate*, +2 Spiked Heavy Steel Shield*, +1 Keen adamantine Heavy pick*,
Amulet of Natural armor+1,Ring of Protection+1, Belt of Strength+4, Amulet of Health+2, Gloves of Dexterity+2,
Cloak of Resistance +1, 5 masterwork javelins
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Notes: With recitation, righteous wrath of the faithful, mass shield of faith AC 37(39), all saves +3 luck bonus, Pick +33/33/28/23/18 melee (1d8+15 19-20x4)
or Pick 31/26/21/16 melee (1d8+15) and shield +29 melee(1d8+13)
1 Krinth Dark Oracle
Female Krinth Cleric5/Divine Oracle10/Shadow Adept2
NE Medium Humanoid (Extraplanar)
Languages: Netherese
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AC: 32(34) (9 armor+3 dex+3 shield+5 natural+1 deflection(+2 dodge)). Touch AC 14 (16). +2 Dodge Bonus in the dark
HP: 132 (HD 5d8+10d6+2d4+68)
Resistances:
Saves: Fort +17 Reflex+13 Will +28 (includes +6 from superior resistance and +1 to will from heroes feast)
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Speed:
Melee: +1 Unholy Heavy Mace +12/+7 melee (1d8+3(+2d6), x2)
Ranged: Spells +12 ranged touch
BAB: +9
Grapple: +11
Attack Options: Spells
Notes:
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Spells(Cleric)
Orisons: 6
1st: 7+1 Obscuring Mist (d), Entropic Shield, Cure Light Wounds, Protection from Good, Detect Good, Faith Healing, Sign(sc), Resurgence
2nd: 7+1 Darkness(d), Status, Desecrate, Resist Energy, Lesser Restoration, Darkbolt(BOVD)*, Living Undeath(SC), Hand of Divinity
3rd: 7+1 Blacklight (d), Create Food and Water(x), Magic Vestment, Bestow Curse, Wrack(SC), Cure Serious Wounds, Slashing Darkness*(SC), Blindsight
4th: 6+1 Armor of Darkness*(d), Greater Magic Weapon, Freedom of Movement, Cure Critical Wounds*, Recitation, Mass Shield of Faith
5th: 5+1 Darkbolt*(FRCS) (d), True Seeing, Symbol of Spell Loss(SC), Quickened Cure Light Wounds*, Righeous Wrath of the Faithful, Righteous Might
6th: 5+1 Prying Eyes*(d), Blade Barrier, Greater Dispel Magic, Heroes' Feast(x), Heal*, Superior Resistance(x)
7th: 4+1 Maw of Stone(FRCS) (D), Blasphemy, Destruction*, Fortunate Fate, Quickened Blacklight(FRCS)
8th: 2+1 Power Word Blind* (d), Quickened Divine Power, Mass Cure Critical Wounds*
9th: 1+1 Power Word Kill* (D), Mass Heal*
CL= 17th
Save DC= 17+Spell level *Spell Focus, +1 DC
Domains: Darkness, Cavern, Oracle
Notes: +2 CL on Divination effects, +1 to Divination(Scrying) DC's
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Abilities: Str 14 Dex 16 Con 18 Int 12 Wis 21(25) Cha 6
Special Qualities: Stonecutting, Rebuke Undead 1/day, Scry Bonus+1, Prescient Sense, Trap Sense+3 , Divination Enhancement,
Improved Uncanny Dodge, Immune to Surprise, Shadow Defense+1, Low Light Vision
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Feats: Skill Focus(Knowledge: Religion(1st)), Blind Fight(Bonus Domain),Spell Focus(Necromancy)(3rd), Shadow Weave Magic(6th),
Craft Magic Arms and Armor(9th), Greater Spell Focus(:Darkness,(12th), Quicken Spell(15th) Pernicious Magic, Tenacious Magic, Insidious Magic(Bonus, 16th)
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Skills: Concentration +25, Spellcraft+22, ad hoc rest
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Posessions: Periapt of Wisdom+4, Amulet of Health+2, +1 Shadow Mithril Full Plate*, +1 Heavy Steel Shield*,
+1 Unholy Heavy Mace*, Amulet of Natural armor+1, Ring of Protection+1, , Smoky Crystal Scrying Ball, 1000GP worth of Unguent for
True Seeing, 400gp powdered silver for Desecration
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Notes:
Self buff up suite: Divine power, Righteous Might, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Recitation, Armor of Darkness, Freedom of Movement,
Greater Magic Weapon(+4), Blindsight, Magic Vestment(+4), Resist Energy, Entropic Shield,
buffed up stats: Size L, HP 176, AC 44(46)(-1 dex-1size+7 deflection+3 armor+3 luck) Str 24 Con 20, BAB+17, +4 Unholy Heavy mace +31/+31/26/21/16(2d6+14+2d6),
Saves Fort +21 Reflex+15 Will +31 (+2 vs holy, good, or light spells or effects), 20% miss chance
Drullister, Mature Adult Phaerimm Shadow Adept2
CE Large Aberration
Languages: Telepathy, Phaerimm, Common, Thoross, Elven, Dwarven, Draconic, Infernal
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AC 36 (Touch 18, FF 35)
HP 213 (19HD)
Resistances SR 32
Saves Fort+22 Reflex+9 Will +23
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Speed 80' (Perfect)
Melee Stinger +17/12/7 melee (1d10+7); poison, larva
BAB +13
Grapple +22
Attack Options/notes Poison(DC 24, Paralysis), Inject Larva
Special Actions Phaerimm Magic,
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Spells Known (sorcerer)
1st (5, 9/day) Alarm, Ray of Enfeeblement*, Protection from Evil, Expeditious Retreat, Cause Fear*
2nd (5, 9/day) Spectral Hand*, False Life*, Fox's Cunning, Invisibility, Darkvision
3rd (4,9/day) Dweomer Vortex(Anauroch), Reverse Arrows, Ray of Exhaustion*, Displacement
4th (4, 9/day) Enervation*, Burning Blood(SC)*, Solid Fog, Celerity
5th (4,8/day) Reciprocal Gyre(SC), Wrack(SC)*, Teleport, Dominate Person
6th (3,8/day) Crushing Sphere(Anauroch), Greater Dispel Magic, Fleshshiver(SC)*
7th (3, 8/day) Finger of Death(sc)*, Waves of Exhaustion*, Ironguard(sc)
8th (3,8/day) Mystic Shield(Anauroch), Blackfire*(SC), Greater Arcane Fusion(CM)
9th (3,7/day) Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, Energy Drain*, Dominate Monster
CL= 22nd
Save DC= 21+level, 22+level for illusion, enchantment and 23+level for necromancy
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Abilities Str 20, Dex 13, Con 22, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 32
Special Qualities Sense Weave, Immune to polymorph and petrification, Flight, Reflective Spell Resistance(50%), Imbued Scales, DR 15/magic, Telepathy 100', True Seeing, Low-Light Vision
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Feats: Spellcasting Prodigy, Spell Penetration, Spell Focus(Necromancy), Arcane Mastery, Craft Wondrous Item, Quicken Spell, Greater Spell Focus(Necromancy), Shadow Weave Magic, Tenacious Magic, Pernicious Magic, Insidious Magic, Multispell
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Skills Concentration+28, Knowledge(Arcana)+30, Spellcraft+27, ad hoc rest...
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Possessions: Bracers of Armor+7*, Amulet of Natural Armor+3*, Crystal Ball*, 2 Arcane Scrolls of Symbol of Stunning*, Wand of Lightning Bolt (CL 10th, 29 charges) Orange Prism Ioun Stone*, Cloakof Charisma+2*, Scriptures of the Created (Thoon Hulk, Flesh Golem, Demonflesh Golem) (*= shadow weave item),
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Notes:
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Mind Flayer Anarchist
Illithid Anarchic Initiate 9
Chaotic Evil Medium Aberration
Languages:
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AC: 28 (5 armor+4 dex+6 natural+1 Deflection+2 Insight)
HP: 126 (8d8+9d6+51)
Resistances:SR 34
Saves: Fort +11 Reflex+10 Will+20
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Speed: 30'
Melee: 4 tentacles +14 melee(1d4+1)
Ranged: powers lol
BAB: +12
Grapple: +15
Attack Options: Extract, Improved Grab, Mind Blast(DC 29)
Notes:
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1st defensive precognition, detect psionics, Vigor, psionic charm, Psionic Grease(CP)
2nd Energy Missiles, Share Pain, Energy Stun, Energy Emanation
3rd Body Adjustment, Touchsight, Solicit Psicrystal, Eradicate Invisibility
4th Energy Ball, Control Body, Wall of Ectoplasm, Telekinetic Maneuver
5th Energy Current, Fiery Discorporation, Anticipatory Strike(CP), Telekinetic Buffer(CP), Energy Manipulation(CP)
6th Dispelling Buffer, Energy barrage(CP), Temporal Acceleration
7th Energy Conversion, Psionic moment of prescience, Energy Claw(CP)
8th Stygian Veil(CP), Recall Death, Psionic Greater Teleport
9th Tornado Blast
CL= 17th
Save DC= 19+ power level, 20+power level for psychokinesis powers
Power Points:
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Abilities: Str 10 Dex 18 Con 16 Int 22(28) Wis 18 Cha 18
Special Qualities: SR 34, Telepathy 100',
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Feats: Overchannel(1st), Talented(3rd), Psicrystal Affinity(6th) Ability Focus(Mind Blast) Mental Juggernaut(12th), Quicken Spell Like Ability (Mind Blast)
(alertness)
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Skills: Bluff+14, Concentration +22, Craft(Alchemy)+18, Diplomacy+11, Disguise+7(9 acting), Hide+11, Intimidate+18
Knowledge(Psionics)+20, Knowledge(The Planes)+15, Listen+13, Move Silently +11, Psicraft+13 Spot+13 Survival+4(6 planar)
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Posessions: Crown of Intellect +6, Cloak of Resistance+3, Amulet of Natural Armor+2,
Ring of Protection+1*, Psionatrix of Psychokinesis*, Amulet of Health+2, +1 Illithidwrought Mithral Chain Shirt*
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Notes: *= Psionic Item
Mind Flayer Anarchist Psicrystal
HP 63
AC 24 (8 nat Armor+2 dex+4 size); Hardness 8
Saves as Owner
Skills: Climb+8(can always take 10) Listen +4 Move Silently +6 Search +6 Spot +4
SQ Improved Evasion, Self-Propulsion, Share Powers, Sighted, Telepathic Link/speech, Deliver Touch Powers, Flight, PR 23, Sight Link,
Channel power, Hero, Construct Traits
Str 1 Dex 15 Con- Int 14 Wis 11 Cha 10
nat armor +8 Int +8
Besides, 3 of those fire elementals should be a decent challenge for a 14th, or maybe 15th level characters. The fact that they teleport next to anyone attacking them, helps. Also, they only take one hit before striking back. Not terribly horrifying or anything, but look like fun.
Here's a fun trick: Scratch spellcasting from a dragon, but replace it with equal level initiator abilities, as if they were swordsages of that level.
fun, fun, funnn!
I wasn't trying to belittle the design of the fire elementals, they could be pretty fun in the right campaign, just like to point out that the fact that they apparently wiped 6 ECL 20 PC's shows that when you throw CO into the works challenge ratings quickly become a very relative thing.
dragons with initiator levels instead of spellcasting is a fun idea, i'll have to toy around with it some, I've been doing some half-dragon templated giants and fey so far with warblade and swordsage as well as the krinth you can see above.
The first one has incredibly low saves, thus making it trivially easy to win in one spell, even if the caster is only level 15 or something.
The next one would be better (slightly) except its attack stats are so trivially low as to not mean anything.
The rest are just bad. Point blank. Free XP for all!
One of the weakest encounters I've thrown against my party (currently 4 level 15s and 1 level 16, was lower at the time) is a highly buffed Marilith with feats and skills drastically redone utilizing Blood in the Water and Swift Action trips via TK combined with a number of lesser demons buffed up in a similar way. Main reason the Marilith counts as weak because her saves only got up to the 20-25 range, and that just isn't good enough to be acceptable.
Opinions are welcome to be shared but please remember to keep posts respectful of one another and refrain from personal attacks.
Show
Long ago bound to the will of the demon Karthaxes, centuries within the Abyss have corrupted the elemental now known as Black Aurora. The particles of ash and acidic vapors within the smoke paraelemental shine with an eerie gray light, illuminating the currents of air and fire that make up its body.
Black Aurora is the most fully corrupt of the three elementals under Karthaxes and lives for the moments when it is able to fight. Taking pleasure in dismembering and dismantling its opposition, the elemental typically rushes into combat, fully convinced of its own superiority and invincibility.
Black Aurora CR 16
Elder Smoke Paraelemental Swordsage 5
CE Huge Elemental (Air, Fire)
Init +15; Senses Darkvision 60 ft.; Listen +22, Spot +22
Languages Ignan, Auran, Abyssal
________________________________________
AC 33 (-2 size, +4 Wis, +13 Dex, +8 natural), touch 25, flat-footed 16
hp 343 (29 HD); DR 10/--; Dodge, Mobility, Evasive Reflexes
fast healing 3
Immune Fire, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, flanking, and critical hits
Fort +25 (18), Ref +22 (9), Will +13 (9)
________________________________________
Speed fly 120 ft. [24 squares]
Melee Claw +32 (2d4+7/x2 or 2d4+11/x2 using a Setting Sun strike) or
Melee twilight blade +36/+31/+26/+21 (2d6+7/19-20 or 2d6+11/19-20 w/Setting Sun strike)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Base Atk +21; Grp +36; Trip +21 (setting sun)
Atk Options Smoke Claws (occupy space, DC 29 Fort); Flyby Attack, Combat Reflexes, Quick Draw
Special Actions Run, Adaptive Style
Maneuvers and Stances Known (IL 17th):
Stances - flame's blessing (1st), shifting defense (5th), *ghostly defense (8th)
Strikes - comet throw (DC 21) (4th), #ballista throw (6th), desert tempest (6th), #salamander charge (7th), #death in the dark (7th), #tornado throw (9th)
Boosts - #inferno blade (7th)
Counters - leaping flame (5th), #fool's strike (8th)
Others - shadow blink (7th)
Disciplines: Setting Sun, Desert Wind, Shadow Hand
# - maneuver readied (6), * - default stance
________________________________________
Abilities Str 22, Dex 36, Con 25, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 8
SQ Special Qualities Quick to act +2, discipline focus-WF (Setting Sun), AC bonus, discipline focus-IS (Setting Sun)
Feats Dodge (b), Weapon Finesse (b), Run, Mobility, Combat Reflexes, Evasive Reflexes, Flyby Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw, Epic Speed, Fast Healing, Adaptive Style
Skills Hide +15 (10), Listen +11 (7), Move Silently +15 (2), Speak Language (1), Spot +10 (6), Tumble +32 (19)
Possessions Gem of Camorak (grants one setting sun stance, forms from body after fight), Twilight Blade (Living Air), Dawn Blade (Living Fire).
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"Darkness conceals, smoke blinds."
Black Aurora is the most fully corrupt of the three elementals under Karthaxes and lives for the moments when it is able to fight. Taking pleasure in dismembering and dismantling its opposition, the elemental typically rushes into combat, fully convinced of its own superiority and invincibility.
Black Aurora CR 16
Elder Smoke Paraelemental Swordsage 5
CE Huge Elemental (Air, Fire)
Init +15; Senses Darkvision 60 ft.; Listen +22, Spot +22
Languages Ignan, Auran, Abyssal
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AC 33 (-2 size, +4 Wis, +13 Dex, +8 natural), touch 25, flat-footed 16
hp 343 (29 HD); DR 10/--; Dodge, Mobility, Evasive Reflexes
fast healing 3
Immune Fire, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, flanking, and critical hits
Fort +25 (18), Ref +22 (9), Will +13 (9)
________________________________________
Speed fly 120 ft. [24 squares]
Melee Claw +32 (2d4+7/x2 or 2d4+11/x2 using a Setting Sun strike) or
Melee twilight blade +36/+31/+26/+21 (2d6+7/19-20 or 2d6+11/19-20 w/Setting Sun strike)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Base Atk +21; Grp +36; Trip +21 (setting sun)
Atk Options Smoke Claws (occupy space, DC 29 Fort); Flyby Attack, Combat Reflexes, Quick Draw
Special Actions Run, Adaptive Style
Maneuvers and Stances Known (IL 17th):
Stances - flame's blessing (1st), shifting defense (5th), *ghostly defense (8th)
Strikes - comet throw (DC 21) (4th), #ballista throw (6th), desert tempest (6th), #salamander charge (7th), #death in the dark (7th), #tornado throw (9th)
Boosts - #inferno blade (7th)
Counters - leaping flame (5th), #fool's strike (8th)
Others - shadow blink (7th)
Disciplines: Setting Sun, Desert Wind, Shadow Hand
# - maneuver readied (6), * - default stance
________________________________________
Abilities Str 22, Dex 36, Con 25, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 8
SQ Special Qualities Quick to act +2, discipline focus-WF (Setting Sun), AC bonus, discipline focus-IS (Setting Sun)
Feats Dodge (b), Weapon Finesse (b), Run, Mobility, Combat Reflexes, Evasive Reflexes, Flyby Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw, Epic Speed, Fast Healing, Adaptive Style
Skills Hide +15 (10), Listen +11 (7), Move Silently +15 (2), Speak Language (1), Spot +10 (6), Tumble +32 (19)
Possessions Gem of Camorak (grants one setting sun stance, forms from body after fight), Twilight Blade (Living Air), Dawn Blade (Living Fire).
________________________________________
"Darkness conceals, smoke blinds."
...Wow. Those are some extremely weak creatures, especially for their level. Total joke of an encounter.
The first one has incredibly low saves, thus making it trivially easy to win in one spell, even if the caster is only level 15 or something.
The next one would be better (slightly) except its attack stats are so trivially low as to not mean anything.
The rest are just bad. Point blank. Free XP for all!
One of the weakest encounters I've thrown against my party (currently 4 level 15s and 1 level 16, was lower at the time) is a highly buffed Marilith with feats and skills drastically redone utilizing Blood in the Water and Swift Action trips via TK combined with a number of lesser demons buffed up in a similar way. Main reason the Marilith counts as weak because her saves only got up to the 20-25 range, and that just isn't good enough to be acceptable.
perhaps you would be willing to post some NPC stat blocks for those you use in your game for comparison?
I find in mine that while every monster/npc has a weakness, that doesn't mean they can't fill an interesting role in an encounter.
232 HP, +5 init. 3 scrolls of CL 11th Heal available.
Move: 70.
AC: 48, touch 19, flat footed 42. 8 images (Greater Mirror Image).
+29/+29/+24/+19/+14 +3 Flaming Burst Scimitar (1d8+13 + 1d6 fire/15-20 + 1d10 fire) + 5 Magic Weaponed Scimitars +27 (1d8+16/15-20) and tail slap +21 (4d6+5).
Saves: 24/20/18. (worse than I thought, but no one actually attacked that weakness)
Skill tricks: Acrobatic Backstab, Back on your Feet, Nimble Charge, Nimble Stand, Spot the Weak Point, Swift Concentration, Twisted Charge.
Feats: Extraordinary Concentration, Improved Critical: Longsword, Martial Stance (Blood in the Water), Martial Study (random filler, doesn't matter), Multiweapon Fighting, Power Attack.
Creature wealth used on buffs, activated via UMD as well as some random uninteresting permanent items.
Tactics are simple enough. Extraordinary Concentration allows swift action trips, granting +4 to hit with all attacks. SLAs are nice for divide and conquer tactics, and skill tricks have various applications such as getting in touch attacks. Obviously would be far better with Wraithstrike, but at the time the group was 3 level 15s and 1 level 14 so that would have been too much for them. Blood in the Water is great for charging up on so called tanks.
This demon was used with 9 other lesser demons buffed up in similar ways. None of them are really interesting enough to post, though the second most powerful creature in this encounter made a good ambush predator.
Remember, this is one of the weakest encounters. I can't show the nastier ones yet because my players haven't seen them.
This may or may not have anything to do with future developments: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jShI22ZXD6A
*Make a blue copy of the group and let them fight their own optimized selves.
*An antimagic dungeon the group have to get through could be interresting as long as its not so long he wizard will be super-frustrated.
*Flod them with swarms. Nothing like automatic hits from CR 1 stuff when you are level 10+. If you want to be nasty, you use some high level swarms and combine them with some of the above (antimagic works well with swarms).
*Give the most optimized character a cursed item that requires a high level divination to figure out is cursed. What curse? When attacking a higher level creature, all actions affect the wrong target (fireball on self, heal on enemy etc)
*Drowning trap with swimming critter (swarms or constrictor snakes...hmm..) For some reason, even high level optimizers have a tendancy to forget swimming.
*Stuff with way to high grapple checks, such as Yuan ti abombination. A couple of these will own any non-grapple-specialist party.
*Assassins that coup de grace them if they don't have their guard up when resting. If they optimize like hell, you are entiteled to play realistically.
*Use one-use items like dust of sneezing and choking (I think that is the name) and then start a major assault.
*The masters of the nine; one for each school in the tome of battle. Let them all wear a torc of antimagic.
*Let them be attacked by a country who start a major hunt including scry-nuking them (divination+offensive spells). THAT should be bothersome, especially to casters who need sleep to prepare spells.
And also, I suggest using Choker (monster manual) as a base-race for pretty much anything. Another suggestion is to stack up spell resistance in form of Improved Spell resistance feat+ vest of (drow name) from DMG2, for a +7 to spell resistance. Although its not immune, it is enough to possibly save the enemy from a key spell, which mess up the wizards spell-line.
I gotta go to work now, be back later.
And the SR debate... How is it a wizard is supposed to get this +15 boost to CL? I understand the +1 from ioun stone, +1 from ring of arcane might and possibly spell penetration/greater penetration, but +15? I know about the spell that grants +10 to a single spell, but that is not at all constant.
And as far as I have seen penetration is not very frequently used in builds, since they take up valuable feat slots needed to get crazy combos. Combine this with the dirt-cheap +5 SR vest in DMG 2 and the enemy at least have a monetary advantage as far as CL vs. SP goes.
Also, I just listed a lot of different stuff, since my experience is that a maxed veteran party always forgets something, and it could easily be sleeping in a different dimension (or as is VERY common: Swimmin).
Also since the portal/window into these spaces exists on the prime and is visable to creatures who can see invisibility, it would seem you could also attempt to dispel them as normal from the portal's location, if successful the occupants would probably be dumped unceremoniously back into the space where the portal was.
Assay Resistance is just a Swift action. Looking at the current party, they ignore SR of level + 11 entirely just with that. Assay never fails. One of them ignores level + 15 due to one feat and one cheap item. He's still winning on the money as power check even before you consider NPCs have far less stuff. So SR of level + 15 = block 20% from the ones doing no specific preparation that don't just use SR: No effects and blocks 0% from the better prepared guy.
In any case I'm just making sure the stuff recommended would actually work, instead of simply deceiving the gullible into thinking it works.
Edit: They have to climb the rope, which is inside the space and not just hanging there.
I know about the spell that grants +10 to a single spell, but that is not at all constant
using Assay Resistance also burns your swift action for the round which is not inconsequential.
Just two things. 1: No self respecting party cares about SR unless it's level + 15 or greater in which case it might be a minor speed bump. 2: No self respecting party sleeps out in the open (as opposed to in a completely safe dimension) so all the approaches that rely on night ambush fail automatically.
Premise 1: No self-respecting party plays non-pun-pun characters.
Premise 2: No self-respecting DM allows pun-pun as character.
Corollary: No playgroup is self-respecting.
using Assay Resistance also burns your swift action for the round which is not inconsequential.
For the first round, which is also not that big a deal. If you don't have Quicken you aren't even slowed down. If you do you still aren't slowed much.
Ignoring Amadi's persistent Strawmen and statements of Fael.
Penetrating SR is not really that easy. No-one has that many fourth level slots after all. Using no SR spells certainly is an option though.
Only need 1/encounter and you could wand it if you really needed to, though that shouldn't be necessary. 210 gold a charge, or less with craft cost reduction feats.
Only need 1/encounter and you could wand it if you really needed to, though that shouldn't be necessary. 210 gold a charge, or less with craft cost reduction feats.
I hate wands, but for this it would cut it if you have the money. As such, getting around SR remains easy and most of the respectable BFC spells never allow SR in the first place.
I hate wands, but for this it would cut it if you have the money. As such, getting around SR remains easy and most of the respectable BFC spells never allow SR in the first place.
A lot of people go around claiming potions of fly are viable. This costs less than a third as much and does more while being more action efficient as well making it better absolutely and relatively. Still, just using spell slots would likely work since very few things have meaningful SR in the first place. Also, it's divination. See Spontaneous Divination.
A lot of people go around claiming potions of fly are viable. This costs less than a third as much and does more while being more action efficient as well making it better absolutely and relatively. Still, just using spell slots would likely work since very few things have meaningful SR in the first place. Also, it's divination. See Spontaneous Divination.
Aye, works still even with the toned down version of Spontaneous divination. Having the spell in your spellbook probably can't be considered a major problem...
And I agree with the issue of consumables. A wand like this (too bad it cannot be an eternal wand) lasts for ages and the loot you'll get will be a lot more valuable.
A few more:
*Enemies with spellblades making them immune to the party's favourite spells (assuming divinations up front).
*Separation. Make sure to separate the party by using prismatic stuff/wall of force/force cage etc
*Steal the wizards spellbook.
*Have Ur-priests siphon the priests spells (a plot hook in a previous campaign, man was that bothersome to the players...)
*Assassins who ambush with use magic device+time stop+ delayed blast fireball or similar
*Undead suicide bombers. This is from one of my campaigns. There was a room filled with fireball traps, Eyes of fear and fire (undead that can shoot fireball) and 1hd skeletons who exploded as a fireball on death (don't remember where that power came from...). The group never came that far though.
Wizards don't let their spellbooks to be stolen.
Just use different spells.