It's a high powered campaign so I'll get the 3 best of 5d6 in all stats so the fact that monks need butloads of stats shouldn't be an issue atleast in the low levels.
The concept of the character is to fight like a kung fu god so the fighter class is more to support the monk part then the other way around, if another class then fighter is better for that I don't mind a tip.
I prefer a minimum of multi classing since it's a bit hard to come up with a plausible reason your character 5 levels in 8 classes and Classx/ClassY just looks prettier ^^.
Improved definition:
Here's a better definition of what I want:
Race: Elf(Any subrace of elf is fine)
Alignment: Lawful Evil (Tis be an evul campaign)
Books allowed: Any aslong as I don't need to regularly look rules up from more then one non core book
Starting level: 6
Class: Monk or Swordsage // something that boosts Monk or Swordsage.
Concept: Unarmed hand to hand non grappling fighter, either DPS or Tank
Thanks in advance for all your help
Seriously, what other books are allowed? What is your basic build? We know you want to do Fighter/Monk Gestalt, but if you have access to the Bo9S, Warblade/Swordsage has identical flavor, and can kick ass in style.
I can get access to Bo9S but in the name of fast paced (Real life) combat and keeping it simple for a not to experienced player I think I'd prefer to stay away fron Bo9S since it seems to turn fighters into a wizard of sorts.
Sorry for forgetting to tell you what books you're allowed to use
So any book is allowed aslong as I don't need to keep looking things up in various books to recheck what it does(I'm looking at you any kind of spellcaster).
Ranger gives you free Multiweapon, Improved Multiweapon and Greater Multiweapon Fighting for free at much lower levels than normal, and lots of skill points to play with. Cozy up to the mage and bum a Greater Might Wallop off him and you're set for life.
You might also want to branch out of Ranger after 11 for something else.
Personally, I'd go Ranger // Unarmed Swordsage/Tiger Claw Master myself, but that is just me.
Tempest Stormwind summarized it nicely.
If you're going to use a ToB class, you might consider making a shadow lord/pouncer.
Almost anything combined with a shadow pouncer would make for an insane gestalt.
Whether you want to make a simple cleric buffer (that can complete in the 100^10 Elite Optimization Challenge
or a druid wildshaper, either master of shrouds and/or planar shepherd. Be a a crazy magic creature from a plane of your choice,
Less than a monk:
Bonus Stunning Fist or Improved Grapple
Bonus Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows
Flurry of Blows (or a related variant); note that this is typically a Flurry of Misses
Evasion (swordsages get this at level 9)
+3 Fortitude save
The same as a monk:
Unarmed Strike as a monk (1d6 unarmed damage, Improved Unarmed Strike, unarmed strikes with hands full, full Strength bonus on "off-hand" damage, manufactured/natural attack support, the ability to swap lethal/nonlethal at no penalty, including in grapples)
Wisdom to AC (albiet one level later)
2d8 HD
+3 Will and Reflex saves
Better than a monk:
Two stances, one first-level, one of up to 3th level. You're in one or the other indefinitely, but can switch swiftly.
Seven maneuvers known, with four you can ready at once. (Due to SS recovery, this is essentially 4 maneuvers, 1/encounter), 6 of up to 3rd level, 1 of up to 4th.
+1 Initiative
Bonus Weapon Focus in anywhere from four to six weapons (in pre-chosen groups); your current weapon may be on the listsFor me, the choice is clear: Swordsage in place of monk.
Here's a better definition of what I want:
Race: Elf(Any subrace of elf is fine)
Alignment: Lawful Evil (Tis be an evul campaign)
Books allowed: Any aslong as I don't need to regularly look rules up from more then one non core book
Starting level: 6
Class: Monk or Swordsage // something that boosts Monk or Swordsage.
Concept: Unarmed hand to hand non grappling fighter, either DPS or Tank
So if we go with Swordsage//Warblade as suggested earlier I have a few questions.
What are the Must have feats? (Except Tomb Tainted Soul since the party has no healer but a Dreaded Necromancer).
What are the Must have stances and Maneuvers?
You make a pretty damn good argument for dumping Monk in favor of Swordsage. Though one thing you forgot when you compared them is the Monks spell resistence.
Here's a better definition of what I want:
Race: Elf(Any subrace of elf is fine)
Alignment: Lawful Evil (Tis be an evul campaign)
Books allowed: Any aslong as I don't need to regularly look rules up from more then one non core book
Starting level: 6
Class: Monk or Swordsage // something that boosts Monk or Swordsage.
Concept: Unarmed hand to hand non grappling fighter, either DPS or Tank
So if we go with Swordsage//Warblade as suggested earlier I have a few questions.
What are the Must have feats? (Except Tomb Tainted Soul since the party has no healer but a Dreaded Necromancer).
What are the Must have stances and Maneuvers?
The SR doesn't actually matter. If you want high SR, Incarnates do it better. Much better.
Also, Elves are crappy Monks due to the lower Con score. That d8 HD? It becomes a d6 effectively. Its like shooting yourself in the foot. The extra point of Dex means a +1 AC, but you would be better off with Water Orc from Unearthed Arcana or Dragonwrought Kobolds (that last one effectively has a +4 base bonus to AC, +5 if your Wisdom score is an odd number).
Swordsage/Warblade is, again, very highly effective. Swordsage/Crusader as well.
Benefits of Swordsage/Warblade:
d12 HD
Full BAB
Armor Proficiencies (and Wis to AC in Light Armor)
7 different schools of maneuvers to pick from (and two recovery mechanics)
Three good save, with Int to Reflex saves
Uncanny Dodge
Evasion
Boosted Init
Massive bonuses from Int
Access to all of the strongest schools (save for Devoted Spirit)
Bonus Feats
10 Stances total (IIRC)
Dual Stance and Dual Boost
6+Int skill points
Need I go on?
So if we go with Swordsage/Warblade since they have a similar flavor to Fighter//Monk:
What are must have feats/stances/maneuvers and what stat should be focused on? I'm guessing STR.
Well, the race is picked for Flavor not for powergaming. The character is meant to be effective not "The Ultimate Fighter(tm)".
So if we go with Swordsage/Warblade since they have a similar flavor to Fighter//Monk:
What are must have feats/stances/maneuvers and what stat should be focused on? I'm guessing STR.
Surprisingly enough, you don't need Str. Dex can replace it completely with Shadow Hand.
Let's see:
Wis>Dex>Con>Int>Str=Cha
That takes care of a lot of things. As for maneuvers, the Handy Links thread at the top of the page has a link to the Bo9S handbook, which tells you what maneuvers are the cream of the crop. Personally, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, and Iron Heart are the strong ones if you are going to be scouting ahead a lot. White Raven and Setting Sun are about Battlefield Control; the better you are at leading your allies and positioning, the more effective those maneuvers will be.
Iron Heart is about being the Fighter, but better. Practically everything in the Tiger Claw, Iron Heart, and some of the Setting Sun and White Raven is a feat remade into a maneuver.
Setting Sun is about throwing people across the damn ocean (that is possible with the right build). Desert Wind is about hit-and-run, and has a heavy magical feeling to it. Shadow Hand is stealth and assassination techniques (but a single feat gets you Dex to damage, and Weapon Finesse gets it to attack rolls).
Tiger Claw is pretty much nothing but jumping around and TWFing. Stone Dragon is heavy damage and being immobile, but is very effective with some of the Swordsage's counters.
It all depends on what you want to focus on. If it is tanking, then Iron Heart, Setting Sun, and Daimond Mind are the best ones. BC? White Raven and Setting Sun. Offense? Tiger Claw, Shadow Hand, and Stone Dragon. Support? Shadow Hand, White Raven, and Setting Sun.
And if you are going for sheer cheese, Setting Sun, White Raven, and Iron Heart have the three most abused maneuvers in the game (Iron Heart Surge, Tornado Throw, and White Raven Tactics). Not that you should avoid them, but those three maneuvers are the ones you hear about the most often.
Weapon Finesse(Dex to hit) and Shadow blade(dex to damage)
Togheter with Tainted soul to be able to be healed by negative damage I suppose that is all the feats I can get at lvl 6.
Seems lvl 5 Warblade grants me an extra feat, what's the best pick? Combat Reflexes?
It would seem that Shadow Blade limits me to only using Shadow Hand stances though, otherwise I'll lose dex to damage.
Does using a maneuver require you to be in a stance of that disipline? It would make sense it it worked like that but in a short search I can't find anything like that mentioned.
If you don't it would seem like a good idea to just stand in Assasin's stance and exploit the fact my party has a Dreaded Necromancer for flanking with undead.
So to get rid of the strength req you pick:
Weapon Finesse(Dex to hit) and Shadow blade(dex to damage)
Togheter with Tainted soul to be able to be healed by negative damage I suppose that is all the feats I can get at lvl 6.
Seems lvl 5 Warblade grants me an extra feat, what's the best pick? Combat Reflexes?
It would seem that Shadow Blade limits me to only using Shadow Hand stances though, otherwise I'll lose dex to damage.
Either Combat Reflexes (and aim for Robilar's Gambit) or Iron Heart Aura (and aim for Stormguard Warrior). Ideally, you would want both.
As to the Stances, once you hit Warblade's capstone that problem disappears. Alternatively, you can multiclass into Master of Nine and get it for 1 minute a day with the 5th level class feature. But yes, you would be restricted to Shadow Hand stances while in melee if you don't want a high Str score. You can always just shift stances whenever someone gets close enough for you to hit them, and use other stances for tactical purposes.
dagger, sai, siangham, short sword, spiked chain, or unarmed strike.
"Me be good with fist... spear... BIG hammah... submachine gun!"
The combination of Robilar's Gambit and Stormguard Warrior seem pretty terrifying but isn't it hard to survive for a round where you practically give each enemy a free 8 strenght?
I'd like to remind everyone that the Shadow Blade feat only functions when you're using a preferred weapon of the Shadow Hand discipline: dagger, sai, siangham, short sword, spiked chain, or unarmed strike.
Well, I'm building an unarmed fighter.
The same as a monk:
Unarmed Strike as a monk (1d6 unarmed damage, Improved Unarmed Strike, unarmed strikes with hands full, full Strength bonus on "off-hand" damage, manufactured/natural attack support, the ability to swap lethal/nonlethal at no penalty, including in grapples)
Wisdom to AC (albiet one level later)
2d8 HD
+3 Will and Reflex saves
Where does it say that I get all those unarmed bonuses, just looking at the swordsage I can't find them and the warblade doesn't seem to get them either.
Where does it say that I get all those unarmed bonuses, just looking at the swordsage I can't find them and the warblade doesn't seem to get them either.
In the Bo9S under swordsage variant it says the HTH swordsage gets the Unarmed Strikes of the monk class.
Read the details of the unarmed strike listing in monk.
If it gets the unarmed strikes of the monk class does that then mean it goes up in damage like the monk up to 1d20 at level 20? (or 4d8 if a kind person casts enlarge person).
Edit:
I found it under Adaption
You trade light armor proficiency for the monks unarmed strike progression.
It doesn't say that you get the improved unarmed strike feats etc but that could be because it's just a suggestion and not rules.
Personally I'd argue that you gain all the monk unarmed benefits including improved unarmed fighting etc but not only do you lose your light armor proficiency, you should probably lose your wisdom bonus to AC if you use armor.
Shouldn't make much difference in the end since no armor has a better max dex bonus then +8 and this build looks like it's meant to go above 26 dexterity.
EDIT: Ack! Ninja'd by a LogicNinja...!
With capstone do you mean the lvl 20 ability Stance Mastery to have two stances active at once?
The combination of Robilar's Gambit and Stormguard Warrior seem pretty terrifying but isn't it hard to survive for a round where you practically give each enemy a free 8 strenght?
Yes, I am referring to Stance Mastery. As to the extra damage and attack rolls, here is the trick:
Avalanche of Blades+Stormguard Warrior+Robilar's Gambit=Round 1.
During that round, every attack you make with both Avalanche of Blades and Robilar's Gambit is a Touch attack to fuel Stormguard Warrior. You may also withhold any AoO you choose from Robilar's Gambit to imrpove upon your next round's attack rolls.
Next round: Time Stands Still+Dancing Mongoose (or other Tiger Claw boost that grants extra attacks with TWFing)+TWFing full attacks+Snap Kick=Huge damage bonuses on each attack for every touch attack you made the last round.
Average from AoB is about 40 points of damage per attack you hit with. Robilar's Gambit can give anywhere between 0 and 50 extra points of damage, assuming you hit with every AoO and have a massive Dexterity score (Dual Attack, the feat that lets you use TWFing on an AoO, will double this amount if everything hits). Touch AC for anything in the MMs is notoriously low, so you will be looking for attack rolls higher than a 1 for the first 6 or so attacks.
Time Stands Still+TWFing+Dancing Mongoose (or whatever the Dancing maneuver is called that grants an extra 4 attacks) is about 19 attacks. Robilar's Gambit on that round also carries over the extra Stormguard Warrior damage IIRC. This translates into an average damage (using just daggers and Assassin's Stance+Shadow Blade, and flanking an enemy vulnerable to Sneak Attack) of (1d4+2d6+Dex+Int (Warblade)+Str (Shadow Blade adds onto the Str damage)+# of Touch Attacks in the previous round) X (# of attacks that hit from Time Stands Still+TWFing+Dancing Mongoose+Snap Kick (+Robilar's Gambit if they survive all of that)= Unsane damage.
For the simplicity, let's assume that the TWFing attacks and extras from Snap Kick, Dancing Mongoose, and TSS all are hits. Let's just leave out Robilar's Gambit from this math. Let's also assume you hit 6 times in the last round from AoB, and hit 5 times from Robilar's to fuel Stormguard Warrior. That's:
(13d4+26d6+[13xD]+[13xS]+[13xI])+(13x55)= Y
D represents your Dex modifier. S represents your Str modifier. I is your Int modifier. Y is the total damage you would deal (assuming my math is right, which I doubt). Let's just use the average damage for the daggers and Sneak Attack dice, and assume that you have a 20 in Dex, Str, and Int (easily attainable at the level you can do this at).
Using those assumptions, Y=(32.5+91+65+65+65+715)=1033.5 points of damage on average. This number increases rapidly the higher your Dex, Int, and Str scores are, and the more attacks that land from both AoB and TSS+TWFing. This applies to whatever enemy you designate as your b**** during the first round.
Not even the Elder Evils have 1033.5 HP. Granted, you too will take considerable damage for doing this, and it isn't very likely to work against mages. You can survive the first round assuming your Con modifier is at least +7 and you are around 17th level, with average rolls for HP. That, and having a high AC will be able to prevent a lot of the damage.
Note that this isn't including the Dual Strike feat's ability to make an attack with your offhand weapon during an AoO. Doing so can very easily double the amount of damage you get from Stormguard Warrior+Robilar's Gambit. This is also assuming that none of those attacks have Power Attack, crit, and only the first few attacks actually hit.
Also note that this number can be increased via Mouthpick shenanigans. And the fact that this doesn't even touch the record for most damage in one round with the least amount of preparation time.
Asinine, isn't it?
Robilar's have a lvl 12 req so with my current char the feat progression would look like:
lvl 1: Weapon finesse
lvl 3: Tomb Tainted Soul(no cleric in his party, only a Dread Necro)
lvl 5: Combat reflexes (Warblade)
lvl 6: Shadow Blade
lvl 9: Ironheart (Warblade)
lvl 9: StromGuard Warrior
lvl 12: Robilar's Gambit
You might not have all those extra attacks for round #2 but it should be enough to kill most CR12 encounters shouldn't it?
At lvl 12 he'll have 3 attacks so he'll get +12 +12 for round #2 +all the attacks the enemy made and in round 2 he can unleash the fury:
If you can dual wield without the two weapon fighting feat he'll have 4 attacks, Time stands still give him two full round actions so 8 attacks and Dancing Mongoose give one more attack with each weapon (based on your post I assume it can be used once per full round for +4 attacks)
So at level 12 he'll do 12 attacks that are almost all guaranteed to hit and when they hit they hit for ALOT. (though the -6 main hand and -10 offhand penalty for not having the TWF feat might make it better to just use 3+3+2=8 attacks instead)
Can't you pull most of that off way before lvl 17?
Robilar's have a lvl 12 req so with my current char the feat progression would look like:
lvl 1: Weapon finesse
lvl 3: Tomb Tainted Soul
lvl 5: Combat reflexes (Warblade)
lvl 6: Shadow Blade
lvl 9: Ironheart (Warblade)
lvl 9: StromGuard Warrior
lvl 12: Robilar's Gambit
You might not have all those extra attacks for round #2 but it should be enough to kill most CR12 encounters shouldn't it?
It lacks the explosion of gore that is 1033.5 points of damage. And it does kinda reek without Time Stands Still, as you will very likely kill the first target in the first 4 attacks. Time Stands Still would allow you to switch focus mid-turn, and restart the entire combo (with or without Robilar's Gambit, if you are low on HP). The third round would be Swift: Recover all expended maneuvers, full attack action afterwards.
By the way, how do swift actions work? I can't seem to find them in the PHB.
By switching focus do you mean switching enemy? Doesn't that cause problems since StormGuard Warrior gives an opponent specific bonus and not a general bonus?
Ah, didn't notice that lvl 17 is the prereq for lvl 9 Maneuvers.
By the way, how do swift actions work? I can't seem to find them in the PHB.
By switching focus do you mean switching enemy? Doesn't that cause problems since StormGuard Warrior gives an opponent specific bonus and not a general bonus?
Kind of. This is why Time Stands Still allows you to restart the loop. Once the first target goes down for the count, if there is a second enemy within reach you start attacking them, and then make each of your next attacks fuel another Stormguard trigger. IIRC, Robilar's can only be used at the start of your action, so designate that enemy before you start attacking, or don't use Robilar's Gambit this time around. Either way, it is less damage to that enemy when the third round comes by, but it may be worth avoiding the extra damage if your HP is lower than you feel safe.
During the third round, activate the Warblade recovery and take your full attack on that one enemy. You can't use any maneuvers during that round (and you may not have any that help out at this level), so the loss is minor.
-blarg
Wouldn't a logical feat to take next(At lvl 16) be combat expertise so you can raise your AC by 5 and then fight defensivly for another +2 during the round you're doing touch attacks, since well, the enemy won't have much AC so the -8 to hit penalty shouldn't hurt much and +7 AC pretty much negates the +4 hit/damage Robilar gives the enemy.
By the way is there any way to get around the fact armor gets worthless when you go past 26 dexterity? (+8 dex modifier).
During the third round you're just limited to no maneuvers, you can still use stormguard and robilar to release hell on round 4 again.
Wouldn't a logical feat to take next(At lvl 16) be combat expertise so you can raise your AC by 5 and then fight defensivly for another +2 during the round you're doing touch attacks, since well, the enemy won't have much AC so the -8 to hit penalty shouldn't hurt much and +7 AC pretty much negates the +4 hit/damage Robilar gives the enemy.
Yes it would be a good idea to do so. If you also forgo a few AoOs (like one or two) you can completely negate, or even override the penalties from CE.
Humans could get CE at 1st level. Or Reflexes. If Flaws are allowed, it really frees up feats for the character.
Edit: The max Dex modifier can be increased by 1 or 2 using the Magic Item Compendium.
Maneuvers known(6):
Wolf fang strike(Standard action to attack with both weapons) Tiger Claw
Steel Wind(Standard action, attack two enemies) Iron heart
Sudden Leap(Jump as swift action) Tiger Claw
Sapphire Nightmare Blade(standard action,Use concentration instead of attack and deal 1d6 extra if you succeed) Diamond Mind
Moment of Perfect Mind(imidiate action, Use concentration instead of will) Diamond Mind
Stone bones(standard action, if you hit you gain DR 5/Adamantite) Stone Dragon
Maneuvers redied(4):
Wolf Fang
Wolf Fang
Steel Wind
Moment of Perfect Mind
The main idea being that I need 4 Diamond Mind maneuvers as a prereq for Time Stands still later on and then going for a dps build probably centered around getting as many attacks per round as possible.
Do you think this will work in a solo campaign?
If you really want to play a "monk" without anything too crazy, you might talk it over with your DM and see what he would let slide. As a DM, I'd thank my lucky stars if a player came to me in a gestalt game and told me they wanted to play a melee/melee and not Cleric/Druid or Archivist/Wizard. And I would do everything I could to make them continue to want to play a melee.
1) Unarmed Progression at twice the "normal" rate? Nothing compared to what a caster would do.
2) Wis to AC twice? Not much better than full plate, and certainly not as good as full plate + cleric buffs.
Its not gestalt RAW, but if your DM is experienced enough to be running a gestalt campaign, he should be knowledgeable enough to know that they're more "guidelines than rules".
The stormguard warrior thing is pretty awesome, but also pretty complicated.
I made a human version and picked the following as my lvl 1 stances and Maneuvers:
Maneuvers known(6):
Wolf fang strike(Standard action to attack with both weapons) Tiger Claw
Steel Wind(Standard action, attack two enemies) Iron heart
Sudden Leap(Jump as swift action) Tiger Claw
Sapphire Nightmare Blade(standard action,Use concentration instead of attack and deal 1d6 extra if you succeed) Diamond Mind
Moment of Perfect Mind(imidiate action, Use concentration instead of will) Diamond Mind
Stone bones(standard action, if you hit you gain DR 5/Adamantite) Stone Dragon
Maneuvers redied(4):
Wolf Fang
Wolf Fang
Steel Wind
Moment of Perfect Mind
The main idea being that I need 4 Diamond Mind maneuvers as a prereq for Time Stands still later on and then going for a dps build probably centered around getting as many attacks per round as possible.
Do you think this will work in a solo campaign?
You can't ready the same maneuver more than once.
Personally I'm of the opinion Gestalt should just boost your power a bit to make smaller parties able to handle a bit larger CR, building things like cleric/druid feels a bit exploitive since you'll have access to spell combinations no sane game system designer could ever have intended.
The Swordsage//Warblade combination I have now will basically be a Swordsage with higher BAB, Extra feats and have various bonuses from Int and is able to recover maneuvers much easier. That feels like enough of a power boost :P
I also feel the character concept I can build behind a melee/melee character is much more interesting then the caster powerhouses.
By the way is there any way to get around the fact armor gets worthless when you go past 26 dexterity? (+8 dex modifier).
Celestial Chainmail in the DMG gives you +8 MDB and flight, which is a boon to pure warriors.
I give Monks full BAB as a matter of course. Even then, they are still glass cannons due to a painful lack of AC at high levels.