In the core rules, ASF deters S/W from body armor since all body armor has ASF. A mithril buckler, however, is fairly cheap at 1015G, especially considering magic vestment is also core.
With all of 3.5 available, it seems kinda silly that only two classes are meant to suffer by the inclusion of ASF, and only at low levels. Magic Item Compendium has the +1 armor mod Twilight to reduce ASF by 10%. A +1 Mithril Chain Shirt is 5100, which is fairly attainable. A Feycraft Githcraft Chain Shirt (Dungeon Master's Guide II) has no ASF or armor check penalty for 2200G.
The main obstacle I see for S/W wearing armor besides ASF is weight. Arcanists are well known for dumping STR, though a high-STR polymorph form has no trouble wearing even full plate, though ACP is annoying.
I ask since I'm about to DM a campaign. I'm spotty about enforcing ASF as it's seemingly a minor deterrent, but do you believe enforcing ASF is wise?
By the RAW, certain armors and shields occasionally cause arcane spells with somatic components to fail. There is no effect on psions, divine casters, incarnum users, or the like. The main reason ASF exists is to hamper Wizards and Sorcerers. (Bards, Warlocks, and Warmages ignore light armor's ASF, and medium and heavy armor are often 'meh' compared to a chain shirt.)
In the core rules, ASF deters S/W from body armor since all body armor has ASF. A mithril buckler, however, is fairly cheap at 1015G, especially considering magic vestment is also core.
With all of 3.5 available, it seems kinda silly that only two classes are meant to suffer by the inclusion of ASF, and only at low levels. Magic Item Compendium has the +1 armor mod Twilight to reduce ASF by 10%. A +1 Mithril Chain Shirt is 5100, which is fairly attainable. A Feycraft Githcraft Chain Shirt (Dungeon Master's Guide II) has no ASF or armor check penalty for 2200G.
The main obstacle I see for S/W wearing armor besides ASF is weight. Arcanists are well known for dumping STR, though a high-STR polymorph form has no trouble wearing even full plate, though ACP is annoying.
I ask since I'm about to DM a campaign. I'm spotty about enforcing ASF as it's seemingly a minor deterrent, but do you believe enforcing ASF is wise?
well, it seems that the consensus is that wizards have the most potential for "brokenness" -- lifting any of their restrictions seems like it would only further that.
OTOH, some would argue that sorcerers really get the shaft as far as casters go. I feel that all of the variants and alt. class features have gone a long way in helping that.
I feel that, while ASF may be a hold-over from earlier editions, it is intended as a balancing factor as well as a flavor factor. both of these factors should be concidered when doing any adjusting. as to your example of special "custom" armors -- hey, they're spending a lot of money and I can totally see a wizrd wearing this special armor that is especially made for the purpose of avoiding ASF. basically, he needs his stuff custom.
I say leave it alone -- but that's just me.
A Feycraft Githcraft Chain Shirt (Dungeon Master's Guide II) has no ASF or armor check penalty for 2200G.
Just wondering... is it actually possible to have both of those templates on the same item? I didn't think armour could be crafted by fey and the gith....
In answer to your actual question - given how powerful wizards are I wouldn't even consider taking away ASF. Greater Mage Armour will last all day and gives more AC bonus than a +1 chainshirt anyway
However, it doesn't really make sense. Somatic Components are just waving your hands around, and divine casters do that too. Why should there only be a crackdown on the arcane ones? just saying "divine somatic components are simple" doesn't really make sense either- a %reduction would.
The rules are based around stereotypes, and wizards in armour is not a stereotype.
That said, I would leave it how it is. wizards in armour is just kinda cheap; and for the gishes out there, if you didn't have this stumbling block then what would be the fun in making a gish build?
well, it seems that the consensus is that wizards have the most potential for "brokenness" -- lifting any of their restrictions seems like it would only further that.
OTOH, some would argue that sorcerers really get the shaft as far as casters go. I feel that all of the variants and alt. class features have gone a long way in helping that.
I feel that, while ASF may be a hold-over from earlier editions, it is intended as a balancing factor as well as a flavor factor. both of these factors should be concidered when doing any adjusting. as to your example of special "custom" armors -- hey, they're spending a lot of money and I can totally see a wizrd wearing this special armor that is especially made for the purpose of avoiding ASF. basically, he needs his stuff custom.
I say leave it alone -- but that's just me.
+1
Full wizards or sorcerers (non gish) shouldn't be in combat anyway so having the highest AC shouldn't be a priority. Battle Sorc variant can cast in light aromor, and also Amored Mage alt class feature lets a gish fighter/wiz or fighter/sorc cast in light armor as well.
That's 1 dex, 8 natural, 3 shield, 6 armour, just from spells and a relatively cheap item. 28 AC plus your normal dex, rings of protection etc is pretty good without the need to remove ACF. It would actually be lower wearing a chainshirt :D
Just wondering... is it actually possible to have both of those templates on the same item? I didn't think armour could be crafted by fey and the gith....
Gith rimefire witch 10. :P
I say that if a caster wants to spend proficiencies on armor proficiency or dip a non-caster class, they should be allowed to use them without penalty.
Besides, arcane casters get most of their defense from spells, anyways (mirror image, blink, displacement, wings of cover, etc). AC is one of the worst defenses beyond the lowest levels for just about every character (barring some very tricked out optimization).
Gith rimefire witch 10. :P
For a moment I read that as "Goth rimefire witch 10."
I lol'ed a little in my mouth. :P
well, it seems that the consensus is that wizards have the most potential for "brokenness" -- lifting any of their restrictions seems like it would only further that.
The druid disagrees with you.
Anyway, why wear armor as a wizard? If you are doing your job correctly there is no point.
The druid disagrees with you.
Anyway, why wear armor as a wizard? If you are doing your job correctly there is no point.
okay, you may have me there. however, the brokenness of each come from different sources:
druid -- sheer volume of available options/class features
wizards -- overall better spell selection
just note that, AFAIK, most of the hideously broken TO builds involve wizard (yes, I know, druid has it's share as well -- just not as many).
and yes, I also do realize that pun-pun is based on "wild shape" -- but there are actually no levels in druid :P
It's a sacred cow that needs to be ground into hamburger. (Didn't read the OP, or reply)
There are other sacred cows I'd much rather slaughter first (Vancian spellcasting would be #1 with a bullet).
If you start killing sacred cows, then you end up with something like Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed. Nothing wrong with that, of course.
There are other sacred cows I'd much rather slaughter first (Vancian spellcasting would be #1 with a bullet).
If you start killing sacred cows, then you end up with something like Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed. Nothing wrong with that, of course.
+1
only, I'd do it with my bare hands, so that I can feel it die
I've actually been using spell points for a while. I was met with quite a bit of resistance at first, but now they would have it no other way.
There are other sacred cows I'd much rather slaughter first (Vancian spellcasting would be #1 with a bullet).
If you start killing sacred cows, then you end up with something like Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed. Nothing wrong with that, of course.
I play psionic characters far more than I play vancian casters, even though the vancians are definitely more powerful. They're just such a pain in the ass to play.
It is, however, monstrously difficult for new players or uh..... high performance situations.
That being said, if it's important in your campaign for some reason, then have at it. Just be aware that wizards/sorcerers become a lot hardier at low levels, and still spiral into ultimate power at higher levels.
And, seriously, the spell point system is fantastic. It makes playing a caster much more enjoyable, though my DM complained that at higher levels it was very difficult not to kill at least one person a round with his casters
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On the same note, arcane casters that are more combat based (ie, bard, sorcerers and warmages/duskblade) would be able to cast in some armor. I would develop a reason for it. Such as a bard's magic is all verbal based and requires sound more than somatic, which allows flexibility when it comes to ASF. Sorcerers use magic more intuitively than wizards and aren't as bound by 'rituals' and could bend the 'rules' a little regarding ASF. Warmages and Duskblades are trained to ignore the ASF in certain armors.
Given that, one would think wizards would run out and develop an armor that they can wear without severing the link to the weave. Well, the wizards haven't done that. Some special armors lower ASF, but nothing kills it. This suggests two results.
1. There is no special material that can remove ASF from plate mail.
2. Wizards don't give a crap about wearing armor.
I lean more towards number 2.
I find it difficult to make characters who are not explosively powerful if spell points are in use. I'd rather just play psionics than use that system.
it's pretty-much the same system, isn't it?
In my games, I've actually eliminated the sorcerer, and replaced it with the psion/wilder; and then use complete magic/psionic transparency. there is the occasional hiccup, but it's always a very easy on-the-spot fix.
i feel that the design of the sorcerer failed miserably at what it was (seemingly) supposed to do; and psionics got it to a "T". also, while all of the caster classes have over-lap in their spell lists, the wiz/sorc are the only ones that share the exact same list -- and that just doesn't seem right.