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How does this look?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
tdsaw111
Apr 18, 2008 13:00:42 Ok. So after a near TPK, my DM has deemed that we should all have back up characters ready. So, I am planning on trying out an Wizard, focused on Enchantment.

I am thinking of using I have the option of 32 point buy, or rolling.

Pretty much everything is open, and we are playing in Eberron. Level 6. Here's my base idea. DM does have a house rule, any skill you get a racial bonus to, or take a feat to give you a bonus to is a Class skill forever more.

Enchantment Domain Wizard w/Social Proficiency and Cohort ACFs, 5/ Mindbender1.

Due to the Social Prof. ACF the skills needed to get into Mindbender are class skills, and thanks to Cohort I will have a 4th level lackey +bonuses to Leadership. And Domain Wizard, mainly because, lets face it, an Enchant based wiz needs all the love he can get!

So Stats something like:

8 STR
14 CON
14 CON
19 INT
10 CHA
10 CHA

RACE: HUMAN

Feats:
H-Fey Heritage
1-Fey Skin
3-Fey Power
6-Leadership

Skills:
Concentration 11
SpellCraft 13
Bluff 11
Diplomacy 11
Intimidate 9
Sense Motive 9
Knowledge Arcana 13

DR 3/Cold Iron.

Now I think this is a pretty slick build. I can use either my cohort or Leadership, to get a rogue as a follower, so as to disarm traps, open locks etc. and then use the other to get a cleric to boost our healing stituation. Not to mention the Charms to get other followers.

I am debating whether to continue Wizard after 6th or take Mindbender further, or maybe go for somthing like Wild Soul, or something. Anyway, what does everyone think? Any suggestions? Other than be a gnome and take ScM.?
#2
jameswilliamogle
Apr 18, 2008 13:08:36 Fey feats do not mesh well enough unless you are a Cha-based character. Binder, Sorcerer, Warlock, DFA, Dragon Shaman, even Paladins can incorporate them somewhat decently. Wizards shouldn't try: don't introduce MAD into your Wizard.

Now, if its a pure flavor thing, I can respect that, but don't take Fey Skin. The DR isn't significant enough. You should never be in range of a full attack, period. Rely on spells like Greater Mirror Image instead.

OK, that said... You had a TPK already. Time for optimization, for sure! Don't take more than 1 level of Mindbender. I prefer not to take any, and instead get a Pseudodragon familiar, but its up to you. Mindsight should be your 6th level feat (from LoM); this gets you 100' Blindsight for anything with a mind.

Enchantment isn't the best school to specialize in, from a "want to do everything" PoV.
#3
the_mad_linguist
Apr 18, 2008 17:56:01 Mindbender is a great single level PrC.

I harshly denounce the foolish rumors that any other levels of it exist.
#4
neraagile
Apr 18, 2008 18:02:43
Mindbender is a great single level PrC.

I harshly denounce the foolish rumors that any other levels of it exist.

I couldn't have said so better myself.

James is also correct, you gain nothing from having the DR

Spontaneous Diviner from Complete Champion is always a good start to a better, stronger wizard...

Enchantment Domain? I find it dubious that is optimized, though its most likely a flavor thing. hmm what excatly is your Wizard supposed to be doing? I never touch the School (its the first on my prohibited list, every single time), so what spells does it have that are actually useful? Touch of Idiocy and Feeblemind, anything else?
#5
shigunaru
Apr 18, 2008 18:06:46
Mindbender is a great single level PrC.

I harshly denounce the foolish rumors that any other levels of it exist.

+1

Enchantment isn't the best school to specialize in, from a "want to do everything" PoV.

He is not a specialist wizard however, he is using the domain wizard variant (ergo, his DM is a fool :D)

OP, Take a look at this
#6
neraagile
Apr 18, 2008 18:10:26
+2

He is not a specialist wizard however, he is using the domain wizard variant (ergo, his DM is a fool :D)

OP, Take a look at this

Fixed :p
#7
widow
Apr 18, 2008 18:15:39
Ok. So after a near TPK, my DM has deemed that we should all have back up characters ready. So, I am planning on trying out an Wizard, focused on Enchantment.

Is that called the beguiler? Not as versatile as the wizard, but if you are focused on enchantment why not? You can easily get into mind bender from beguiler, not to mention all the skills you will get.

Another option with psionics (again not as versatile) would be telepath 5/Thrallherd 1. There is a telepath variant on wizards site that gives up its 5th level bonus feat for telepathy of 5 feet per manifestor level. Thrallherd will take the inquisitor feat, but the leadership feat will cover it. Go mind slaves!
#8
tdsaw111
Apr 18, 2008 19:36:51 Ok, so I chose Enchantment mainly because our party has no social character. And I also like the idea of leading my own personal regime of followers. Granted, a Necro could do the same, but it is not really to easy to walk around with several undead as it is to have, say a troll, or a few humanoids hanging about.

Perhaps I will drop the Fey Skin and take Spell Focus. I mainly wanted a way to give me that little something extra in the way of Save DCs and I have yet to find many ways to do such. I will take a look at LoM. Maybe Aberrant blood will be more useful?

As for Domain variant, I figured I would try it out with one of the less powerful domains. Also it gives great benefits without costing me anything really.

Is Mindbender REALLY that bad? It doesn't seem that bad given the huge boost it gives you to running a small army. Any suggestions to replace it?
#9
the_mad_linguist
Apr 18, 2008 20:10:23
Is Mindbender REALLY that bad? It doesn't seem that bad given the huge boost it gives you to running a small army. Any suggestions to replace it?

If, hypothetically, other levels of the prestige class existed, I would point out that the benefits, while somewhat nifty, are not nearly worth two levels of spells. The power difference between being able to cast seventh level spells and nineth is much greater than any convenience of not periodically having to say "please allow this magic I am casting to effect you" to any enchanted allies. And even if you got an ability that gave +4 to enchantment caster levels at the last level of the class, the caster level for that school would still be a net loss compared to a character who took something else for nine levels, let alone the caster levels for other schools. Any miscellaneous abilities that mimic spells could be duplicated with actually casting the spells.

tl;dr summary:
Five levels of no caster progression would always be bad. A single level with caster progression, a good fort save, and telepathy (essentially, no downsides)? Excellent.

Oh, and look at thrallherd, if you haven't already.
#10
tdsaw111
Apr 18, 2008 20:41:48 What book is Thrallherd from? I haven't been able to find it.
#11
sakaki22
Apr 18, 2008 21:26:58 Expanded Psionics Handbook. Also the SRD.
#12
tdsaw111
Apr 19, 2008 8:10:48 Ok, looked over Thrallherd and really wasn't that impressed.

As of now I am going to talk to my DM about using the adaption notes on Nightmare Spinner to twist it to an enchantment focused class, and maybe Wild Soul. Even if I cant get NS changed around, I will probably still take at least the first level. Useful abilties.

Anyone have any other suggestions?
#13
tdsaw111
Apr 19, 2008 19:25:30 Ok, so I have been playing this over further, and have decided that I think I want to take Human Paragon. I can take 1 level of Human Paragon, followed by 3 of Wizard, then 2 more of Human Paragon. I lose 1 level of CL, but pick up +2 Int, 1 Bonus feat, I get to choose my own class skills for 3 levels, and then get to keep one of those skills as a class skill forever. The skill I decided to keep is UMD. Most useful skill ever. I consider that a fair trade for 1 CL. Opinions?
#14
archerpwr
Apr 19, 2008 20:32:58
Ok, looked over Thrallherd and really wasn't that impressed.

It's not great, but it's certainly good for Kalashtar egoists or shapers. The dip into mindbender is mandatory. I made a PC like this a while back. Trinity in my sig. I had a lot of fun making that guy.
#15
jameswilliamogle
Apr 19, 2008 20:45:45
Ok, so I have been playing this over further, and have decided that I think I want to take Human Paragon. I can take 1 level of Human Paragon, followed by 3 of Wizard, then 2 more of Human Paragon. I lose 1 level of CL, but pick up +2 Int, 1 Bonus feat, I get to choose my own class skills for 3 levels, and then get to keep one of those skills as a class skill forever. The skill I decided to keep is UMD. Most useful skill ever. I consider that a fair trade for 1 CL. Opinions?

It is a fair trade. I still don't think you should pick the enchantment domain.

I think that a straight Beguiler (PHB2) is exactly what you are looking for, though.
#16
the_mad_linguist
Apr 19, 2008 21:12:57
Ok, so I have been playing this over further, and have decided that I think I want to take Human Paragon. I can take 1 level of Human Paragon, followed by 3 of Wizard, then 2 more of Human Paragon. I lose 1 level of CL, but pick up +2 Int, 1 Bonus feat, I get to choose my own class skills for 3 levels, and then get to keep one of those skills as a class skill forever. The skill I decided to keep is UMD. Most useful skill ever. I consider that a fair trade for 1 CL. Opinions?

Autohypnosis is also a decent skill.
#17
littlekid
Apr 19, 2008 21:14:46 The problem with a higher-level mindbender is that Dominate Monster effectively mimics their best ability, only better. You're trading 2-3 caster levels to get dominate monster a few levels earlier.

I like the idea of focusing on a single school, but enchantment isn't very helpful against undead, constructs and basically anything with a high will save.
#18
tdsaw111
Apr 19, 2008 21:50:43 Ok, so I see that just about everyone here thinks I should reconsider Enchantment. The main reason I chose not to go Beguiler is that the progression would be harsh. If I took the Paragon, which even if I can ignore the skills due to Beguiler getting the ones I would want anyway, that is still a +2 to my primary casting stat and a bonus feat. Downside, as a Beguiler that 1 level loss of CL means I only get 2nd level spells. As a Wiz I get 3rd, and due to Domain, I get about the same number per day, just unfortunately they are not spontaneous. Also by going Domain instead of Beguiler, or Specialist, I am not cutting out any useful spells. I am able to learn ANY wiz spell I want. Not limited to basically Illusion/Enchant with the Beguiler, and not having to lose 2 good schools altogether like a specialist.

And while Enchant is not great against undead/constructs/high will saves, it is great against fighter types. who in turn are great against Undead/Constructs/High will saves. If I can get a charm for example to stick on the big beat stick NPC, I can use him to go after the nigh immune baddie I cant get. Plus, I am not losing anything.
Any thing else I am missing? Anything?
#19
widow
Apr 19, 2008 23:16:46
Ok, looked over Thrallherd and really wasn't that impressed.

The main benefit of the thrallherd class is its leadership on steroids. Normally if you loss a cohort it takes 1 year to get a new one. With this class you can get a new one every day, it only takes 24 hours to get a new one. There is also the part where they are you mental slaves instead of NPC's looking for a mentor to guide them. It works very well if you have a character that uses others as tools, especially since how you treat them and your alignment does not effect your leadership score with these followers. Also by level 20 with 10 levels in thrallherd, you have a leadership score maxed at 25 with a Cha of 10.

Now if you dont like psionics and just want a single cohort you dont plan on ever changing, then it is not very good. It also does not work well for good type characters since you are basically a slave master. I picture the thrallherd as a psionic necromancer without the smell. While wandering the realms you can summon up whatever enterage (ouch, spelling) you want in 24 hours notice. Don't need them later, no problem, get the killed off and new ones show up in no time.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tdsaw111 Apr 18, 2008 13:00:42	Ok. So after a near TPK, my DM has deemed that we should all have back up characters ready. So, I am planning on trying out an Wizard, focused on Enchantment. I am thinking of using I have the option of 32 point buy, or rolling. Pretty much everything is open, and we are playing in Eberron. Level 6. Here's my base idea. DM does have a house rule, any skill you get a racial bonus to, or take a feat to give you a bonus to is a Class skill forever more. Enchantment Domain Wizard w/Social Proficiency and Cohort ACFs, 5/ Mindbender1. Due to the Social Prof. ACF the skills needed to get into Mindbender are class skills, and thanks to Cohort I will have a 4th level lackey +bonuses to Leadership. And Domain Wizard, mainly because, lets face it, an Enchant based wiz needs all the love he can get! So Stats something like: 8 STR 14 CON 14 CON 19 INT 10 CHA 10 CHA RACE: HUMAN Feats: H-Fey Heritage 1-Fey Skin 3-Fey Power 6-Leadership Skills: Concentration 11 SpellCraft 13 Bluff 11 Diplomacy 11 Intimidate 9 Sense Motive 9 Knowledge Arcana 13 DR 3/Cold Iron. Now I think this is a pretty slick build. I can use either my cohort or Leadership, to get a rogue as a follower, so as to disarm traps, open locks etc. and then use the other to get a cleric to boost our healing stituation. Not to mention the Charms to get other followers. I am debating whether to continue Wizard after 6th or take Mindbender further, or maybe go for somthing like Wild Soul, or something. Anyway, what does everyone think? Any suggestions? Other than be a gnome and take ScM.?
#2 jameswilliamogle Apr 18, 2008 13:08:36	Fey feats do not mesh well enough unless you are a Cha-based character. Binder, Sorcerer, Warlock, DFA, Dragon Shaman, even Paladins can incorporate them somewhat decently. Wizards shouldn't try: don't introduce MAD into your Wizard. Now, if its a pure flavor thing, I can respect that, but don't take Fey Skin. The DR isn't significant enough. You should never be in range of a full attack, period. Rely on spells like Greater Mirror Image instead. OK, that said... You had a TPK already. Time for optimization, for sure! Don't take more than 1 level of Mindbender. I prefer not to take any, and instead get a Pseudodragon familiar, but its up to you. Mindsight should be your 6th level feat (from LoM); this gets you 100' Blindsight for anything with a mind. Enchantment isn't the best school to specialize in, from a "want to do everything" PoV.
#3 the_mad_linguist Apr 18, 2008 17:56:01	Mindbender is a great single level PrC. I harshly denounce the foolish rumors that any other levels of it exist.
#4 neraagile Apr 18, 2008 18:02:43	Mindbender is a great single level PrC. I harshly denounce the foolish rumors that any other levels of it exist. I couldn't have said so better myself. James is also correct, you gain nothing from having the DR Spontaneous Diviner from Complete Champion is always a good start to a better, stronger wizard... Enchantment Domain? I find it dubious that is optimized, though its most likely a flavor thing. hmm what excatly is your Wizard supposed to be doing? I never touch the School (its the first on my prohibited list, every single time), so what spells does it have that are actually useful? Touch of Idiocy and Feeblemind, anything else?
#5 shigunaru Apr 18, 2008 18:06:46	Mindbender is a great single level PrC. I harshly denounce the foolish rumors that any other levels of it exist. +1 Enchantment isn't the best school to specialize in, from a "want to do everything" PoV. He is not a specialist wizard however, he is using the domain wizard variant (ergo, his DM is a fool :D) OP, Take a look at this
#6 neraagile Apr 18, 2008 18:10:26	+2 He is not a specialist wizard however, he is using the domain wizard variant (ergo, his DM is a fool :D) OP, Take a look at this Fixed :p
#7 widow Apr 18, 2008 18:15:39	Ok. So after a near TPK, my DM has deemed that we should all have back up characters ready. So, I am planning on trying out an Wizard, focused on Enchantment. Is that called the beguiler? Not as versatile as the wizard, but if you are focused on enchantment why not? You can easily get into mind bender from beguiler, not to mention all the skills you will get. Another option with psionics (again not as versatile) would be telepath 5/Thrallherd 1. There is a telepath variant on wizards site that gives up its 5th level bonus feat for telepathy of 5 feet per manifestor level. Thrallherd will take the inquisitor feat, but the leadership feat will cover it. Go mind slaves!
#8 tdsaw111 Apr 18, 2008 19:36:51	Ok, so I chose Enchantment mainly because our party has no social character. And I also like the idea of leading my own personal regime of followers. Granted, a Necro could do the same, but it is not really to easy to walk around with several undead as it is to have, say a troll, or a few humanoids hanging about. Perhaps I will drop the Fey Skin and take Spell Focus. I mainly wanted a way to give me that little something extra in the way of Save DCs and I have yet to find many ways to do such. I will take a look at LoM. Maybe Aberrant blood will be more useful? As for Domain variant, I figured I would try it out with one of the less powerful domains. Also it gives great benefits without costing me anything really. Is Mindbender REALLY that bad? It doesn't seem that bad given the huge boost it gives you to running a small army. Any suggestions to replace it?
#9 the_mad_linguist Apr 18, 2008 20:10:23	Is Mindbender REALLY that bad? It doesn't seem that bad given the huge boost it gives you to running a small army. Any suggestions to replace it? If, hypothetically, other levels of the prestige class existed, I would point out that the benefits, while somewhat nifty, are not nearly worth two levels of spells. The power difference between being able to cast seventh level spells and nineth is much greater than any convenience of not periodically having to say "please allow this magic I am casting to effect you" to any enchanted allies. And even if you got an ability that gave +4 to enchantment caster levels at the last level of the class, the caster level for that school would still be a net loss compared to a character who took something else for nine levels, let alone the caster levels for other schools. Any miscellaneous abilities that mimic spells could be duplicated with actually casting the spells. tl;dr summary: Five levels of no caster progression would always be bad. A single level with caster progression, a good fort save, and telepathy (essentially, no downsides)? Excellent. Oh, and look at thrallherd, if you haven't already.
#10 tdsaw111 Apr 18, 2008 20:41:48	What book is Thrallherd from? I haven't been able to find it.
#11 sakaki22 Apr 18, 2008 21:26:58	Expanded Psionics Handbook. Also the SRD.
#12 tdsaw111 Apr 19, 2008 8:10:48	Ok, looked over Thrallherd and really wasn't that impressed. As of now I am going to talk to my DM about using the adaption notes on Nightmare Spinner to twist it to an enchantment focused class, and maybe Wild Soul. Even if I cant get NS changed around, I will probably still take at least the first level. Useful abilties. Anyone have any other suggestions?
#13 tdsaw111 Apr 19, 2008 19:25:30	Ok, so I have been playing this over further, and have decided that I think I want to take Human Paragon. I can take 1 level of Human Paragon, followed by 3 of Wizard, then 2 more of Human Paragon. I lose 1 level of CL, but pick up +2 Int, 1 Bonus feat, I get to choose my own class skills for 3 levels, and then get to keep one of those skills as a class skill forever. The skill I decided to keep is UMD. Most useful skill ever. I consider that a fair trade for 1 CL. Opinions?
#14 archerpwr Apr 19, 2008 20:32:58	Ok, looked over Thrallherd and really wasn't that impressed. It's not great, but it's certainly good for Kalashtar egoists or shapers. The dip into mindbender is mandatory. I made a PC like this a while back. Trinity in my sig. I had a lot of fun making that guy.
#15 jameswilliamogle Apr 19, 2008 20:45:45	Ok, so I have been playing this over further, and have decided that I think I want to take Human Paragon. I can take 1 level of Human Paragon, followed by 3 of Wizard, then 2 more of Human Paragon. I lose 1 level of CL, but pick up +2 Int, 1 Bonus feat, I get to choose my own class skills for 3 levels, and then get to keep one of those skills as a class skill forever. The skill I decided to keep is UMD. Most useful skill ever. I consider that a fair trade for 1 CL. Opinions? It is a fair trade. I still don't think you should pick the enchantment domain. I think that a straight Beguiler (PHB2) is exactly what you are looking for, though.
#16 the_mad_linguist Apr 19, 2008 21:12:57	Ok, so I have been playing this over further, and have decided that I think I want to take Human Paragon. I can take 1 level of Human Paragon, followed by 3 of Wizard, then 2 more of Human Paragon. I lose 1 level of CL, but pick up +2 Int, 1 Bonus feat, I get to choose my own class skills for 3 levels, and then get to keep one of those skills as a class skill forever. The skill I decided to keep is UMD. Most useful skill ever. I consider that a fair trade for 1 CL. Opinions? Autohypnosis is also a decent skill.
#17 littlekid Apr 19, 2008 21:14:46	The problem with a higher-level mindbender is that Dominate Monster effectively mimics their best ability, only better. You're trading 2-3 caster levels to get dominate monster a few levels earlier. I like the idea of focusing on a single school, but enchantment isn't very helpful against undead, constructs and basically anything with a high will save.
#18 tdsaw111 Apr 19, 2008 21:50:43	Ok, so I see that just about everyone here thinks I should reconsider Enchantment. The main reason I chose not to go Beguiler is that the progression would be harsh. If I took the Paragon, which even if I can ignore the skills due to Beguiler getting the ones I would want anyway, that is still a +2 to my primary casting stat and a bonus feat. Downside, as a Beguiler that 1 level loss of CL means I only get 2nd level spells. As a Wiz I get 3rd, and due to Domain, I get about the same number per day, just unfortunately they are not spontaneous. Also by going Domain instead of Beguiler, or Specialist, I am not cutting out any useful spells. I am able to learn ANY wiz spell I want. Not limited to basically Illusion/Enchant with the Beguiler, and not having to lose 2 good schools altogether like a specialist. And while Enchant is not great against undead/constructs/high will saves, it is great against fighter types. who in turn are great against Undead/Constructs/High will saves. If I can get a charm for example to stick on the big beat stick NPC, I can use him to go after the nigh immune baddie I cant get. Plus, I am not losing anything. Any thing else I am missing? Anything?
#19 widow Apr 19, 2008 23:16:46	Ok, looked over Thrallherd and really wasn't that impressed. The main benefit of the thrallherd class is its leadership on steroids. Normally if you loss a cohort it takes 1 year to get a new one. With this class you can get a new one every day, it only takes 24 hours to get a new one. There is also the part where they are you mental slaves instead of NPC's looking for a mentor to guide them. It works very well if you have a character that uses others as tools, especially since how you treat them and your alignment does not effect your leadership score with these followers. Also by level 20 with 10 levels in thrallherd, you have a leadership score maxed at 25 with a Cha of 10. Now if you dont like psionics and just want a single cohort you dont plan on ever changing, then it is not very good. It also does not work well for good type characters since you are basically a slave master. I picture the thrallherd as a psionic necromancer without the smell. While wandering the realms you can summon up whatever enterage (ouch, spelling) you want in 24 hours notice. Don't need them later, no problem, get the killed off and new ones show up in no time.