The special abilities at lower levels are neat but aren't very powerful (Detect Fire, Protection from Winter) but at 2nd level they get Fire Resistance 5 (not bad)
But at 3rd you hit jackpot - Powerful Grip. Add twice your STR when wielding a Greataxe instead of 1 1/2....awesome. Choose a a high Str race like an Orc (Arctic Orc fits best since it has Cold Endurance already)
Abilities at higher levels like Frost Greataxe, Agonizing Strike, Icy Greataxe, and Fire Immunity are pretty cool as well.
On top of all this the DoT gets spells starting at 1st level. Again at lower levels they're just neat Paladin/Blackguard Spells like Divine Favor, Doom, Magic Weapon. 2nd level gives you the always nice Bull's Strength. 3rd level gives you a cool melee touch attack (Shivering Touch), but at 4th level you get some pretty powerful spells like Summon Giants which is an 8th level Cleric Spell. The earliest you could get access to this spell would be 12th level, but that's still before a Cleric would get access to it (they'd get it at 15th). Throw in the awesome Stoneskin as a 5th level spell and these guys are pretty much tanks with cool special abilites and powerful spells. Also important to note the Lesser Frostburn and Frostburn damage creatures but heal creatures of the cold subtype (which DoT has to be).
Water Orc Ranger1/Stoneblessed3/Barbarian1/Fighter1/Deepwarden2/EWM1/Disciple10/Fighter1
Or something like that. Might be kinda silly, who knows?
Then again, if its a Greataxe only, I be hosed.
Does Powerful Grip only work with Greataxes specifically? Or any large 2handed axe? Because that would be pretty insane if you could combine Powerful Grip with EWM's Uncanny Blow to get 3x (or 2.5x?) your STR bonus with a Dwarven Waraxe held 2handed. You could do something like:
Water Orc Ranger1/Stoneblessed3/Barbarian1/Fighter1/Deepwarden2/EWM1/Disciple10/Fighter1
Or something like that. Might be kinda silly, who knows?
Then again, if its a Greataxe only, I be hosed.
If I am not mistaken, EWM Uncanny Blow does not state that it increases the STR bonus by a set amount, it merely states that it sets it to a fixed amount. How is the Powerful Grip worded?
If it is just Great Axe... and they are worded in a way to stack... just make it a 'Heavy' Great Axe and thus an Exotic Weapon.
You'd have to be able to hold the great axe as a one handed weapon-- powerful build or monkey grip, but you could do it with a heavy axe.
Also, disciple of thyrm adds 'half his strength bonus as bonus damage,' so its not a multiplier at all.
I'm thinking Wildshape Ranger/MoMF/Disciple of Thyrm and assuming girallon form to wield a heavy greataxe in 4 arms? If I'm adding things correctly, that's
4d6 (Large Heavy Greataxe) + Str 22 (no gear assumed, but you could wilding clasp some stuff) x 3.5
4d6 +21? Perhaps a giant is better suited despite the extra girallon arms...
You'd have to be able to hold the great axe as a one handed weapon-- powerful build or monkey grip, but you could do it with a heavy axe.
Also, disciple of thyrm adds 'half his strength bonus as bonus damage,' so its not a multiplier at all.
I'm thinking Wildshape Ranger/MoMF/Disciple of Thyrm and assuming girallon form to wield a heavy greataxe in 4 arms? If I'm adding things correctly, that's
4d6 (Large Heavy Greataxe) + Str 22 (no gear assumed, but you could wilding clasp some stuff) x 3.5
4d6 +21? Perhaps a giant is better suited despite the extra girallon arms...
Away from books, so no access to Frostburn to verify:
What was that about having to hold the axe in one hand? If that is a requirement of the Thyrm ability, then you would not be able to use the Girallon form to add additional STR to dam by using multiple arms. At that point, might as well just use Girallon form and ignore the Thyrm PrC entirely.
Think that the Primeval PrC is more straightforward with a Dire Ape form.
So it must be a greataxe, and it must be wielded in two hands. But if you are large you can wield a large greataxe, etc.
According to that theory, the Collasal Jotunbrund Monkey Grip Diciple of Thyrm weilding a Aptitude Heavy Fullblade still only does 'collosal weapon' damage... just food for thought.
Human Wildshape Ranger 6/MoMF 7/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Thyrm 3/Warshaper 3
Feats:
Alertness, Monkey Grip
WF: Greataxe
Cold Endurance
Prof: Heavy Axe
Power Attack
two open
Gear +6 Str (with wilding clasps)
+5 tome of Str
+5 sizing heavy greataxe of speed
Greater Dusk Giant form (18 HD)
48 Str +4 Warshaper +6 enhancement +5 tome +5 level = 68(+29) modifier
Attack +50/50/45/40/35 (6d6 +78) power attack @ 10/10/5/2/0 … roughly 500 a round.
I’m sure there lots I’m not optimizing here, but that's not too shabby.
Average damage for one attack = 1016
Average damage for five attacks = 5080
No Magic Items? No creative rules interpretations? Read on.
So far, there has not been enough abuse of an abusive class. The Wild Shape route in its present form is not powerful enough. Moreover, it represents too large of a feat and class investment, therefore cutting out the best Disciple of Thrym options. What, you may ask, are these options? They are presented below in no particular order of importance. These feats are my Core Charge Components; every character that deals damage off of a charge should wield these absurd feats and abilities. Failure to do so is a true injustice to your character; s/he just wants the best.
KTKENSHINX CHARGE CORE
1) Power Lunge (Sword and Fist): Double strength mod in damage
2) Headlong Rush (Races of Faerun): Double charge damage
3) Battle Jump (Unapproachable East): Double charge damage
4) Supreme Power Attack (Complete Warrior, Frenzied Berserker): x4 Power Attack damage.
5) Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer): +200% Power Attack with 2 hands
6) Barbarian Lion Totem (Complete Champion): Won’t be used in this build due to extremely tight feat progression.
The Disciple of Thrym is in a peculiar position to employ these powerful feats more than any other character. Powerful Grip adds extra strength. All of our multiplication effects really like that extra strength. Power Attack likes two hands. So does Leap Attack. Greataxe’s require two hands. You get the picture.
With this in mind, I present a progression from level 1 to level 20 of Thrym Kong the Axeman.
Thrym Kong
Desert Orc (Unearthed Arcana Variant)
Abilities at lvl 20: Str 26, Dex 14, Con 18, Wis 10, Int 11, Cha 9
Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4 / Frenzied Berserker 10 / Primeval 1 / Disciple of Thrym 3
A Brief Account of Classes
Barbarian: Only two levels are used, but that first level is of paramount importance. First, the UA Bear variant, also known as the Barbearian, grants Toughness at level 1, a prerequisite for Primeval. Second, it gives you access to a number of important skills for entering Primeval and Disciple. Third, Rage is all the rage. Not only does it boost your damage capability, but it allows access into the delcious Frenzied Berserker class.
Fighter: You need more feats. Fighter bonus feats. Full BAB progression is nice too.
Frenzied Berserker: +1 attack? Good. +10 Strength? Great. Trading 1 point of attack for 4 points of damage? Disgusting.
Primeval: Hands down one of the best classes in D&D. It is overlooked, misunderstood, and underused. This does not change its awesomeness. I could go on for pages about this class’s power, but for now, we only must know two things. Dire Ape gives you +12 Strength. Dire Ape can wield a Greataxe.
Now, let us go down the level and feat progression for Thrym Kong.
Thrym Kong: Desert Orc
1. Barbarian 1
Toughness (UA Barbearian), Endurance (UA Desert Orc feat), Self-Sufficiency (Lvl 1 feat)
2. Barbarian 1 / Fighter 1
Power Attack (Ftr bonus)
3. Barbarian 1 / Fighter 2
Cleave (Ftr bonus), Intimidating Rage (Lvl 3 feat)
4. Barbarian 1 / Fighter 3
5. Barbarian 1 / Fighter 4
Battle Jump (Ftr bonus)
6. Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4
Improved Grapple (UA Barbearian), Destructive Rage (Lvl 6)
7. Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4 / Frenzied Berserker 1
8. Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4 / Frenzied Berserker 2
9. Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4 / Frenzied Berserker 3
Cold Endurance (Lvl 9 feat)
10. Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4 / Frenzied Berserker 4
11. Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4 / Frenzied Berserker 5
12. Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4 / Frenzied Berserker 5 / Primeval 1
Leap Attack (Lvl 12 feat)
13. Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4 / Frenzied Berserker 6 / Primeval 1
14. Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4 / Frenzied Berserker 7 / Primeval 1
15. Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4 / Frenzied Berserker 8 / Primeval 1
Weapon Focus (Greataxe) (Lvl 15 feat)
16. Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4 / Frenzied Berserker 9 / Primeval 1
17. Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4 / Frenzied Berserker 10 / Primeval 1
18. Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4 / Frenzied Berserker 10 / Primeval 1 / Disciple of Thrym 1
Headlong Rush (Lvl 18 feat)
19. Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4 / Frenzied Berserker 10 / Primeval 1 / Disciple of Thrym 2
20. Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4 / Frenzied Berserker 10 / Primeval 1 / Disciple of Thrym 3
Clearly, some of the feats can be switched around for increased playability and power at lower levels. The end result, provided that prerequisites are met, will be the same.
Now, the fun bit. Damage. This will proceed in three segments. First, I will calculate Thrym Kong’s Strength. Then, I will calculate his attack bonuses. Finally, I will combine it all to demonstrate his titanic damage.
Strength
Base: 26 (+8)
+4 Rage: 30 (+10)
+10 Greater Frenzy: 40 (+15)
+12 Dire Ape form: 52 (+21)
I personally detest using magic items in optimization threads. This is about the character himself. Not his rich uncle who buys him pretty toys. Thrym Kong is manly and does not believe in patronage and favors. The beast will have only a Masterwork Large Greataxe.
Attacks and Bonuses
BAB: +20
Strength: +21
Magic Weapon spell: +1
Charge: +2
Weapon Focus: +1
Masterwork: +1
Total: +46
Total attacks with Frenzy: +46/+46/+41/+36/+31
When it comes time to factor Power Attack in, we are going to be using the maximum amount of -20, bringing our attacks down to:
+26/+26/+21/+16/+11
This is not too shabby at all. Naturally, for high AC monsters we can tone down our Power Attack reduction to a more reasonable -10. For our present purposes, we are determining maximum damage, not accuracy.
BIG. DAMAGE.
Orc form: 3d6 + 12
Magic Weapon: 3d6 + 12 + 1
Powerful Grip: 3d6 + 16 + 1
Rage: 3d6 + 20 + 1
Frenzy: 3d6 + 30 + 1
Dire Ape: 3d6 + 42 + 1
Power Lunge: 3d6 + 84 + 1
Power Attack -20: 3d6 + 84 + 1 + 20
Two-handed weapon: 3d6 + 84 + 1 + 40
Supreme Power Attack: 3d6 + 84 + 1 + 80
Leap Attack: 3d6 + 84 + 1 + 160
Battle Jump: 2 x (3d6 + 84 + 1 + 160)
Headlong Rush: 2 x (2 x (3d6 + 84 + 1 + 160)
AVERAGE TOTAL DAMAGE ON ONE ATTACK = 1016
AVERAGE CRITICAL HIT DAMAGE = 3048
AVERAGE TOTAL DAMGE FOR FIVE ATTACKS = 5080
So there you have it. In terms of optimization, this character is not too absurdly off the charts. The only marginally creative rules interpretation used is the Dire Ape’s ability to wield a Greataxe, and that is a fairly reasonable assertion to make. Do notice that there points in the first few levels where you will take a multiclass exp penalty. That being said, only the humorless, anatomically challenged, or frightened DM would deny Thrym Kong his existence.
Brutishly Yours,
-ktkenshinx-
EDITED: Complete Adventurer errata for Leap Attack accounted for. Total damage values reduced accordingly.
AVERAGE TOTAL DAMAGE ON ONE ATTACK = 1336
AVERAGE CRITICAL HIT DAMAGE = 4008
AVERAGE TOTAL DAMGE FOR FIVE ATTACKS = 6680
I don't think you can make a full attack after charging without taking lion totem barbarian from complete champion instead of bear totem barbarian. You'll have to rearrange some feats to do so.
Oh and a charging build without shocktrooper is just wrong!
Supreme Power Attack: 3d6 + 84 + 1 + 80
Leap Attack: 3d6 + 84 + 1 + 240
Battle Jump: 2 x (3d6 + 84 + 1 + 240)
Headlong Rush: 2 x (2 x (3d6 + 84 + 1 + 240)
Without looking, your stacking of multipliers is WAY WAY WAY OFF and wrong.
I don't think you can make a full attack after charging without taking lion totem barbarian from complete champion instead of bear totem barbarian. You'll have to rearrange some feats to do so.
Oh and a charging build without shocktrooper is just wrong!
Regarding Shocktrooper, it is a feat that increases accuracy (penalty to AC instead of to hit), not damage. This is an attempt to maximize damage, not accuracy.
Lion Pounce COULD be added, if someone could find a way to grant Toughness as a feat through other means. Currently, my Level 6 advancement one level in Barbarian provides nothing to the build. If there was a class that offered either Toughness, Self-Sufficiency, or Cold Endurance at level 1, then I could remove that one level of Barbarian taken at level 1 (that grants toughness), and get Pounce instead.
As to the multipliers, I made one mistake; I did not read the Complete Adventurer errata on Leap Attack. This changes the effect. Instead of tripling the damage as with a two-handed weapon, as suggested in the CA, it simply adds 100% to the damage. If that is the incorrect multiplier, then yes, I apologize. Other than that, nothing is off or wrong.
1. Supreme Power Attack: For every 1 point subtracted from BAB, add 4 to damage.
2. Subtract 20 points of BAB to add 80 to damage (4 x 20)
3. Leap Attack: +100% damage of your use of the Power Attack feat.
4. Double current power attack damage to 160
5. Battle Jump (Double total charge damage): 2 x (3d6 + 84 + 1 + 160)
6. Headlong Rush (Double total charge damage): 2 x (2 x (3d6 + 84 + 1 + 160))
AMENDED AVERAGE DAMAGE TOTAL = 1016
I did not read the Complete Adventurer errata on Leap Attack.
Leap Attack was off, Headlong Rush is a multiplier, so is Battle Jump.
All those multipliers need to be worked as D&D multipliers.
"Sometimes a special rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you're applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (x2) and a double (x2) applied to the same number results in a triple (x3, because 2 + 1 = 3)."
So the net effect of the two doubling effects is simply a tripling effect.
Which means the overall damage lowers to:
1. Supreme Power Attack: For every 1 point subtracted from BAB, add 4 to damage.
2. Subtract 20 points of BAB to add 80 to damage (4 x 20)
3. Leap Attack: +100% damage of your use of the Power Attack feat.
4. Double current power attack damage to 160
5. Battle Jump (Double total charge damage): 2 x (3d6 + 84 + 1 + 160)
6. Headlong Rush (Double total charge damage): 3 x (3d6 + 84 + 1 + 160)
TOTAL = 762
Is this a correct adjustment to the multipliers? Or, do the effects of Battle Jump and Headlong Rush simply not stack at all?
-ktkenshinx-
I always get confused by the multipliers, too, but I think it goes something like.
Power attack 1 attack:2 damage
-Doubled for Supreme Power Attack
-Tripled for Leap Attack
-Quadrupled for Headlong Rush (double weapon damage)
-Quintupled for Battle Jump (triple weapon damage)
so you have a 1:10 return, or 200 bonus damage.
The wildshape version had a couple problems, too, because I think it only has 17 HD going towards his shape limit. At any rate, Thyrm is just the icing on the cake of what is basically a charger build. Not that its bad, but I dunno if I feel its the best use of the class.
so you have a 1:10 return, or 200 bonus damage.
This is more like the correct amount. I didn't audit the math here (nor the OP's numbers) tho.