i need to take and extra feat: Arcane Thesis...
the first solution is to find a metamagic storm...
ather? like prestige class... or items... or anything else..
u can use all books and magazines u want..
If you don't care about a caster level ... Wu Jen 1 ... Eldritch Knight 1 ... etc.
Are you straight wizard?
now i already lose 2 lvl :D...
better no lose more :D
Why don't you list out your feats and we will help to see if you can off-load them to an item ... if not, you're out of luck.
Alienist 3 nets one,
Loremaster 1 + Int mod of 7 nets another.
Mage of the Arcane Order 2
You'll probably want Argent Savant up to 3 or 4, though. Your best bet is probably combing through Magic Item Compendium. :/
Or Feat Shuffle.
lvl3 Weapon focus (ranged spells)
lvl 5 bonus spell wiz: Fiery Spell
lvl 6 war mage: Energy sostitution
lvl7 war mage: bonus:Empower spell
lvl9 war mage: Arcain Thesis (magic missile) + bonus: Enlarge Spell
lvl12 Force missile: Knowledge Devotion
lvl15 Force missile: Twin spells
lvl18 (still dunno what to do
) Energy admixtureReq:
War mage:
Skill: Concentration 8, Spellcraft 8
Feat: Combat Casting, Eschew Materials, Weapon Focus (any)
Spell: 3rd level arcane
Force Missile Mage [Dragon compendium]
Skills:Concentration 9 Spellcraft 9
Feat: Combatcasting
Spells: ablity to cast magic missle once per day
Argent Savant [Complete Arcane]
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, Spellcraft 12 ranks.
Spells: Able to cast at least 5 spells with the force descriptor,
at least one of which must be V level or higher.
so my idea is to take and extra feat: Arcane thesis (fireball) to have nice damege also in big areas...(as for single target i'v got magic missile)
Or, say, a flaw.
empower enlarge maximize and widen
So is fiery / energy sub setting you up for something else?
Depending on your DM's ruling, energy substitution might count as a "-1 level" metamagic when combined with Arcane Thesis.
So is fiery / energy sub setting you up for something else?
i take fiery to get +1 each roll and energy sub i need as req for energy admixture
can i ask a commerciant to make me a magic item that give me +1 metamagic feat?
not a rot.. i mean satmhing that don't have charges...
Depending on your DM's ruling, energy substitution might count as a "-1 level" metamagic when combined with Arcane Thesis.
check out the PHB2 errata, it is quite clear that energy sub is -1 if you use it with other metamagic so that the total metamagic is +0 or above.
But... your Thesis is on magic missile, which cannot be admixtured, or does Force Missile Mage take care of that?
Force Missile Mage allows you to add an element to your MM giving it the subtype as well as the damage. Now that it has an energy type you can subsitute it or admixture it.
Either way, I don't think the build needs another thesis for fireball. Instead, just pick one of the many other higher level AoE spells and use those when MM doesn't work for you. Fireball isn't the end-all be-all and is replicated many times in different higher level forms throughout the Wiz/Sorc spell list.
ur right but the problem is:
what can beat (with my feats) this:
fireball with Arcane Thesis + Empower spell + Fiery + twin spells =
(10d6 + 40) * 1.5 * 2 = 225 average damage
and this is a lvl7 spell.... (so i can have some of them at a nice CL)
If you need to sack a feat, sack Knowledge Devotion. I'm not sure it is going to be that helpful to you with what you're trying to do. Will it help some? Sure.
Are you trying to do too much here? Is Fiery worth it?
when i use twins.. empored and energy admixture mean 3 * 1.5 *2 * 2 = 18
EACH MISSILE.. and i can use 14 of them... so it's 252 average damage...
i don't think i wanna leave it
... or ...
Drop another caster level.
And, by the way, assuming Knowledge Devotion adds to each missile isn't really a safe assumption. If you can sell your DM on that ... well ... you don't need arcane thesis anyway.
JaronK
Incantatrix in general is awesome. You get 4 metamagic feats over 10 levels. You can apply metamagic feats at no slot increase with a Spellcraft check after the spell has been cast. You can apply Persistent Spell to buffs. You can Sculpt grease, fog cloud, and other battlefield control spells. You can seemingly Twin or Repeat any spell.
Then it's obviously better for your build than arcane thesis.
... or ...
Drop another caster level.
And, by the way, assuming Knowledge Devotion adds to each missile isn't really a safe assumption. If you can sell your DM on that ... well ... you don't need arcane thesis anyway.
Knowledge Devotion adds to damage rolls. Each missile has it's own damage roll. It's a very safe assumption.
Knowledge Devotion isn't precision damage, so the RC's guidance on that should be ignored. That means that Knowledge Devotion is now about the only adder than can add damage to attribute draining spells.
Also, you should focus on anything that adds lingering damage or additional little bits, since each one of those gets the roll. Rends, snap kicks ... those are all additional damage rolls even though they stem from separate attacks.
And really, since sneak damage is different than skirmish damage is different than sudden strike, a character with all 3 should get KD on each of them. You could make that case.
My point being, if your DM is going to allow the open-ended Knowledge Devotion ruling then you may as well exploit the full potential there. Magic Missile is fun and easy, but not really getting the bang for your buck. That uses your spell slots ... an expendable resource. Find spells to which the damage add is more significant (ability / attribute) or spells that in and of themselves give you more gain.
1. his DM won't allow Flaws or any other "optional" ruling from UA. (That would have been to easy :P)
2. feat/classes and all are restricted to general books, dragonlance ones (even the ones not from WoTC as you might have guessed by the Age of Mortals Warmage used in there) and Dragon Magazines. (thus Forgotten Realms/Eberron specific stuff is a no-no, with some effort Ravenloft or Ghostwalk crap could be fitted in since Wizard randomly decided the first one is linked with DLs)
3. both him, his master and the whole party are new to DnD (and afaik, he's the only one with a character with some thought behind it, and you all know what that means thinking about the power level of the other ones... and no, no overpowered-anyway-clerics last time I checked :P)
About the build... the magic missile and their damage are ok, it's really high damage considering the rest of the party will be low-noob-powered. Addin togheter a free Fiery Spell thanks to thesis for a +1 to damage, a +3 from the warmage, a +1 to 5 from Know. Devotion, another +1 from argent savant and all...
His issue now is that he's worried about the master countering the Missiles sending little armies since MM is not an AoE spell. Thus he wanted a decent aoe to get rid of them, thus Arcane Thesis on the Fireball to use the other metamagic feats he already have.
Another bit of info that he didn't mention and that I'm not really sure if it would help, is that he's a Cojurer with the wizard variant from PHB2 if I recall well (-familiar +abrupt jaunt, a 10ft teleport as an immediate action)
For now the only decent way I've managed to find is Metamagic Storm (Complete Mage), a magic location that if you find it and spend the day will give you a bonus feat.
the Loremaster is also a nice idea I didn't consider.
About sneak attack and skirmish, while it's true they are different form of damage they are just bonuses (and a part) of the same attack.
Let's think about a rogue/scout that attacks a flanked target throwing crap at him, he does 1 attacks, adding sneak to it. If you are inclined to think that sneak should be considered a different source of damage for KD, then it should work for skirmish too... then you'd add skirmish both to the normal weapon damage and to sneak... BUT skirmish should be considered a new source of damage too... then you'd have to add sneak bonus to it!
Wouldn't make much sense in my opinion.
I'm not sure if there's something specific that rules this, but again there aren't any rule that lists specific maluses for death in dnd
how can i have the same effect of Arcane thesis without using it? :D
His issue now is that he's worried about the master countering the Missiles sending little armies since MM is not an AoE spell.
Or, say, anyone with a shield spell, minor globe of invulnerability, etc.
About sneak attack and skirmish, while it's true they are different form of damage they are just bonuses (and a part) of the same attack.
Let's think about a rogue/scout that attacks a flanked target throwing crap at him, he does 1 attacks, adding sneak to it. If you are inclined to think that sneak should be considered a different source of damage for KD, then it should work for skirmish too... then you'd add skirmish both to the normal weapon damage and to sneak... BUT skirmish should be considered a new source of damage too... then you'd have to add sneak bonus to it!
Wouldn't make much sense in my opinion.
There are rules, and how strictly they are interpreted ... and sense.
From a PRACTICAL optimization standpoint most DMs I know tend to treat bonus damage that doesn't have specific instruction on it (applies only to the first, applies to all affected by the spell, etc. etc.) similar to precision damage.
If your DM allows the open-ended (or we're theorhetically optimizing) then the question becomes "what is a damage roll ... because KD adds to damage rolls".
Precision damage specifically is updated in the RC to say that if it is added to an effect that doesn't do normal or energy damage then it should be treated as HP damage. Thus, sneak attacking with Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't do the ray's damage + some extra d6 in STR damage. However, it WOULD do the ray's damage + KD check in STR damage. That's clearly a damage roll, so KD clearly adds. You'd also get it on any kind of lingering damage (like acid fog) that has a roll as well as retributive damage (fire shield). Again, a very open definition can be better exploited.
Back on point.
I think Gargamella is a tad confused. If you're worried about hordes of people and being flexible then trying to sham as much metamagic on a fireball you can isn't the right path - you're over thinking. Just memorize an ordinary fireball ... and an ice storm ... and a lightning bolt ... etc. Or better yet, Summon Monster [n]. You are a *WIZARD*... and on top of that a Conjurer. You don't need to metamagic every spell for it to be effective. Plenty of them work just fine without it.
As it is, you're turning your wizard (almost) into a one-trick pony ... and I think you're getting worried that you don't know what to do when that one-trick doesn't work. Take a look at your spell lists - you have PLENTY of options.
If that is the case then clearly magic missile is sub-optimal.
Knowledge Devotion isn't precision damage, so the RC's guidance on that should be ignored. That means that Knowledge Devotion is now about the only adder than can add damage to attribute draining spells.
Also, you should focus on anything that adds lingering damage or additional little bits, since each one of those gets the roll. Rends, snap kicks ... those are all additional damage rolls even though they stem from separate attacks.
And really, since sneak damage is different than skirmish damage is different than sudden strike, a character with all 3 should get KD on each of them. You could make that case.
My point being, if your DM is going to allow the open-ended Knowledge Devotion ruling then you may as well exploit the full potential there. Magic Missile is fun and easy, but not really getting the bang for your buck. That uses your spell slots ... an expendable resource. Find spells to which the damage add is more significant (ability / attribute) or spells that in and of themselves give you more gain.
I'm not seeing anything remotely broken in this post.
Knowledge Devotion adding to attribute damage has nothing to do with whether KD adds to each missile or once to the Magic Missile spell as a whole.
Rends, snap kicks, etc: Why wouldn't these get additional KD damage? Each is a separate attack. Each is a separate damage roll. Whether or not you consider MM to be one damage roll or five, each of these are extremely clearly separate damage rolls. There is absolutely no sane, rules-worthy argument that they wouldn't be. Every other applicable bonus you have that adds to damage rolls adds to these rolls -- Weapon Specialiaztion, magical enhancement bonuses, sneak attacks, the list goes on. Exactly what rules precedent is there for KD not applying?
Precision damage adds to a damage roll. It is not a separate roll. If it were a separate roll then DR would apply twice to a sneak attack -- once to the original damage roll, once to the sneak attack roll. This isn't the case, though, because precision damage adds to the normal damage roll, thus both DR and KD only apply once.
There are rules, and how strictly they are interpreted ... and sense.
From a PRACTICAL optimization standpoint most DMs I know tend to treat bonus damage that doesn't have specific instruction on it (applies only to the first, applies to all affected by the spell, etc. etc.) similar to precision damage.
This doesn't mean they should. If the rules are clear on something, then the rules should be applied.
If your DM allows the open-ended (or we're theorhetically optimizing) then the question becomes "what is a damage roll ... because KD adds to damage rolls".
A damage roll is when you roll for damage. It's really not a hard concept.
Precision damage specifically is updated in the RC to say that if it is added to an effect that doesn't do normal or energy damage then it should be treated as HP damage. Thus, sneak attacking with Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't do the ray's damage + some extra d6 in STR damage.
And if KD were precision damage, this would matter. It isn't, so it doesn't.
However, it WOULD do the ray's damage + KD check in STR damage. That's clearly a damage roll, so KD clearly adds. You'd also get it on any kind of lingering damage (like acid fog) that has a roll as well as retributive damage (fire shield).
You are correct. It also has nothing to do with whether Magic Missile is five damage rolls or one.
Again, a very open definition can be better exploited.
I see absolutely no exploitation going on here. So what if your fire shield does three or four extra damage to someone? Who gives a crap if your AoEDoT spell does a couple extra points per tick? The game is not going to break if these things happen. Save the house-rules arguments for things that actually break the game, like free metamagic and chain-binding solars. The fact that a feat with a huge (HUGE! -- six skill points per level wasted on knowledge skills in order to use it fully!) prerequisite allows a character to do more damage than expected with a magic missile is utterly insignifcant.
(1) In my EXPERIENCE (this is not a RAI / RAW issue, just practical optimization advice) most DMs do not allow for Knowledge Devotion on each missile. I'm not saying this is a crazy exploit ... in my experience most DMs consider the damage from magic missile to be one "thing" ... so being hit with three missiles is 3d4+3 ... not 1d4+1 ... and then 1d4+1 ... and then 1d4+1, thus KD would only add once in those games. This is a common rule zero in my experience that may or may not apply to this player. Practical optimization.
- Your experience may be different.
You don't have to convince me of what the rules say, I'm not arguing what the letter of the rules say. The rules include a Starmantle cloak and Nightsticks and, practically speaking, those things get rule-zeroed a lot. Any build someone wants to use in a game that needs 10 Nightsticks to work I'm going to warn the player that they are in a dangerous area.
- Your experience may be totally different.
Also, "exploit" isn't a dirty word - it seems like you're reacting as if I'm using it with a negative connotation. I'm not.
(1) In my EXPERIENCE (this is not a RAI / RAW issue, just practical optimization advice) most DMs do not allow for Knowledge Devotion on each missile. I'm not saying this is a crazy exploit ... in my experience most DMs consider the damage from magic missile to be one "thing" ... so being hit with three missiles is 3d4+3 ... not 1d4+1 ... and then 1d4+1 ... and then 1d4+1, thus KD would only add once in those games. This is a common rule zero in my experience that may or may not apply to this player. Practical optimization.
What if they're aimed at 3 separate targets? Then they must be separate damage rolls. Then logically, they're also separate damage rolls against one target.
....
We're still off topic kinda - Gargamella, you have other spells ... use them. You don't need to focus on a second trick ... focus on your flexibility.