Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mltryman Sep 28, 2008 23:38:19	Okay, after recently looking into minor creation and reading a few threads i've been wondering just how many doses of Black Lotus Extract is in 1 cubic foot of the created substance? Granted yes i am aware of the limited duration but the idea is to have said wand of minor creation trigger to make 6 cubic feet of the black lotus extract into a small bag of holding (designed to be like a wrist pouch but with the stats of a Bag of Holding I). My reasoning for this is that the npc in question will be using the Poison Spell feat from Drow of the Underdark to use doses from his wrist bag as he casts his touch spells thus avoiding the saving throw and smacking his targets with 3d6 con damage (i believe the secondary is forfeited in this kind of use). Yes the spells are subject to SR etc, but the main point of this is to find out how many doses of the poison are in one cubic foot of said extract. -Thanks!
#2 ashlan Sep 29, 2008 0:47:41	(Assuming the poison has the same density as water) According to the SRD, a vial holds 1 ounce of liquid. 1 cubic foot of water weighs 62.355 16 ounces to a pound = 997.68 doses
#3 jaronk Sep 29, 2008 1:21:54	And this is why Shadow Major Creation to create a giant puddle of Black Lotus around someone is rediculous. JaronK
#4 pithica Sep 29, 2008 9:49:30	If you prefer volumetric measurements. 1 cu/ft of water is roughly 7.5 gallons, or 60 pints. A pint is 16 fluid ounces. 60 pints is 960 ounces or 960 doses. It's less than the above figure, but the math may be easier for you that way.
#5 mltryman Sep 29, 2008 11:20:26	Oh dear god! 960ish doses ... at 3d6 con each.. per cubic foot. *twitches* Yes very very unpleasant since its a 6th level caster minumum, thus making for um .. 5,760 doses. *grins evilly and waves goodbye to pesky annoying bbegs or over-zealous uber rule-breaking munchkinized super pc's* . The later in that description is one of the pcs, he goes out of his way to bend every single rule to point of it might as well be broken, obscures to be utmost, etc. Example: improved trip gives an attack if successful. Thus ,.... trip, attack, use cleave to make another trip, attack, rinse, repeat etc via great cleave and supreme cleave to make 5 ft. steps in the process. Or shocking grasp + warmage edge + metal armor + mortalbane. Things that while yes are outside of the box, are also a bit breaking and overshadows the other pcs. So i think its time to humble him down to play nice with everyone while still being creative etc. Of course they will have the option of bringing him back to life but at the groups discretion!
#6 Lokiyn Sep 29, 2008 11:40:21	Minor Creation Mechanics
#7 pithica Sep 29, 2008 12:20:39	I, and all of my DM's have houseruled that expensive 'vegetable' components work by the same rules as expensive 'mineral' components and are therefore not permanent. I don't think that this particular change is outside the scope of RAI, considering such obvious abuses as this. If you're the DM, I would suggest adopting the same rule, if not, I would suggest you make said suggestion to your DM.
#8 phaedrusxy Sep 29, 2008 12:33:37	The spell/power specifically says none of the stuff made with it is permanent. So that's not a houserule. That doesn't really affect the usefulness much at all. The biggest drawback is the 10 round manifesting time for the psionic power, but once it lasts pretty much all day, that isn't much of a limitation, either. Just make a bucketfull in the morning, and coat all your stuff in it. I used to do this with a warforged psion I played.
#9 pithica Sep 29, 2008 14:13:50	The spell/power specifically says none of the stuff made with it is permanent. So that's not a houserule. That doesn't really affect the usefulness much at all. I was thinking of Major creation, and not minor, though, I was still wrong as vegetable isn't permanent like I thought, it's 2hr/level. I just remembered that we collectively houseruled that things like 'Black Lotus Extract' are treated the same as 'adamantine' (or similar materials) and not like 'tomatoes' for any of the Conj (creation) spells. I thought there was a Conj (creation) spell that was instant for vegetable matter? Can't seem to find it in the SRD, though, so maybe I'm smoking crack.
#10 jaronk Sep 29, 2008 14:28:56	Well, the Shadow Conjuration version (Heightened to be higher level so it works) casts as a standard action. JaronK
#11 mltryman Sep 29, 2008 14:36:24	Well you know ... thats why the Wand of Minor Creation exists. Standard action activation time = loads of said extract, not the actual flower. Which at minimum caster level still lasts for 6 hours (1 hour per level). Keep in mind that the entire point of this was to use the conjured extract as a component of touch spells with the Poison Spell feat from drow of the underdark. I.e. wands .. harvest into vials and store said vials in a bag of holding and use the vials when casting. Or just use the wand to create the massive pool in the bag itself since it holds um... 30 cubic feet for the smallest version. The latter use would obviously require DM approval although the former would work just fine. And since the feat causes the poison to automatically take effect when damaged by said touch spell ............. you can figure out from there lol.
#12 bruceleeroy Sep 29, 2008 16:28:57	Minor Creation: You create a nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving, vegetable matter. The volume of the item created cannot exceed 1 cubic foot per caster level. You must succeed on an appropriate skill check to make a complex item. Bolding mine. Complete Adventurer puts the Craft DC for Black Lotus Extract at 35. Edit: And I see no reason to suggest that wouldn't be per dose.
#13 tshern Sep 29, 2008 16:40:18	So just get +25 modifier to the check and take ten? Using Shadow Conjuration doesn't have this limitation at all though.
#14 muertog Sep 29, 2008 17:36:33	Attempting to use any created object as a material component causes the spell to fail. Additionally, in most cases (unless you have a really lenient {I would say foolish or stronger words, but I'll err on the side of niceness} DM), you can't create material of material value (IE over 1-10 GP). This is reflected in the limitations of duration that even Major Creation can handle. No, permanency does not work to make it last longer, either.
#15 bruceleeroy Sep 30, 2008 1:13:16	So just get +25 modifier to the check and take ten? Using Shadow Conjuration doesn't have this limitation at all though. Can you take ten on a spell?
#16 muertog Sep 30, 2008 10:14:22	Not unless you have some sort of feat that allows it, since there is a penalty for failure (loss of the spell for the day). Divine Insight, on the other hand, would work perfectly fine on that skill check as far as I can see.
#17 phaedrusxy Sep 30, 2008 12:06:35	Can you take ten on a spell? You're not taking 10 on a spell. You're taking 10 on a skill check. Taking 10 on craft checks is perfectly legit. Not unless you have some sort of feat that allows it, since there is a penalty for failure (loss of the spell for the day). Divine Insight, on the other hand, would work perfectly fine on that skill check as far as I can see. That limitation applies for taking 20, not taking 10.
#18 hogarth Sep 30, 2008 14:17:05	I was thinking of Major creation, and not minor, though, I was still wrong as vegetable isn't permanent like I thought, it's 2hr/level. I just remembered that we collectively houseruled that things like 'Black Lotus Extract' are treated the same as 'adamantine' (or similar materials) and not like 'tomatoes' for any of the Conj (creation) spells. FWIW, that's my house rule as well (really expensive vegetable stuff lasts as long as really expensive mineral stuff).
#19 muertog Sep 30, 2008 14:31:15	Yer right. I was thinking that he was doing the skill check while casting -at- a target, not the act of creating the material out of combat. Still does not change the fact that using created material as components of a spell will cause the spell to automatically fail. Attempting to use any created object as a material component causes the spell to fail.
#20 muertog Sep 30, 2008 14:57:22	The later in that description is one of the pcs, he goes out of his way to bend every single rule to point of it might as well be broken, obscures to be utmost, etc. Example: improved trip gives an attack if successful. Thus ,.... trip, attack, use cleave to make another trip, attack, rinse, repeat etc via great cleave and supreme cleave to make 5 ft. steps in the process. Or shocking grasp + warmage edge + metal armor + mortalbane. Things that while yes are outside of the box, are also a bit breaking and overshadows the other pcs. So i think its time to humble him down to play nice with everyone while still being creative etc. Of course they will have the option of bringing him back to life but at the groups discretion! Improved trip + cleave? I assume that somehow he kills something if he follows up the trip with a free attack, then sticks cleave on top of that after he kills the creature that is prone. Why doesn't he just attack in the first place? Or does he get some sort of extra bonus out of the -4 to AC due to the opponent being on the floor? The shocking grasp + metal armor only gives a +3 to the touch attack (and it's metal armor, which means the target tends to have a lousy touch AC anyways), and the Mortalbane (if it is the BoVD feat) says "Spell-like ability", not spell. The first one is easily taken care of by the DM not being careless and allowing all the creatures to group up nicely (Chaotic Evil doesn't mean Chaotic Stupid). If the -party- tends to help the grouping along by staying close together, the DM should start correcting that thought with nice area of effect spells that hit all the players that like to stay close together. The second one is taken care of by having a larger variety of opponents (some not wearing metal armor), and not allowing "spell-like ability" to be confused with "spell". My DMs usually like the idea "If you want to be able to use or do something, you will be -facing- stuff that can use the same abilities. And you are outnumbered."
#21 bruceleeroy Sep 30, 2008 16:52:59	Objection, Your Honor: Relevance?
#22 muertog Sep 30, 2008 18:47:13	Relevance is the initial posting requesting assistance in cheese to counteract cheese. Original posted cheese is either originally illegal or misunderstood per RAW, requested cheese appears to be illegal per RAW. Best solution, get rid of or otherwise explain original cheese, since requested cheese is unavailable (or look for new sources of cheese). Mmmmm.... gouda.....
#23 mltryman Sep 30, 2008 19:57:50	Okay ... well i've gotten many answers and points of view etc. Using said extract as a spell component is not something that can be done. So .... to turn this on a different direction but still in the same "area": How can one obtain extensive amounts of BL extract without shelling out 4,500 gp per dose.
#24 muertog Sep 30, 2008 20:45:03	Problem is that any poison that has a high enough save DC to guarantee effectiveness is going to be rather expensive. Is this going to be a DM or PC controlled attack? If this is a relatively low-leveled event, there is always Bestow Curse. Does direct ability damage (to a minimum of 1), but if you zap Con for 6 points, that's an automatic 3 HP lost per HD. Will save, which should hit fighter-based characters rather hard.
#25 mltryman Sep 30, 2008 21:23:17	actually the DC of the poison doesn't matter. Poison Spell feat makes the poison automatically take effect if target is hit by a melee touch attack. And it will be PC initiated.
#26 bruceleeroy Oct 01, 2008 16:05:20	Then use drow poison. Who needs con damage when you can just knock them unconscious for 10 rounds?