Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 blightersbane May 31, 2009 12:32:05	Because of my parties latest interest in gestaulting your a typical good guys, I would like to run a campaign night and introduce them to a gestault bad guy(s) Few things pop in mind... How to get the most bang for buck with gestault but within CR? Head bad guy with lackeys? OR what I like, a gestault group of baddies? I would like to stretch the resources of the party by giving several encounters in 1 day to keep encounters at CR for party but raising the effectiveness of the badguys. Our group is 5 members & gestault 8th level, and I am really interested in watching the party get their collective asses kicked by a evil gestault party, I want them to see the door swings both ways. I dont want a group of dracotaurs etc. But I do want a group of normal bad guys, racially speaking, Drows, humans, tieflings, bugbears etc. As far as class goes? Gees I would want to keep it easy on me but I want to REALLY challenge if not possibly kill a pc or two. All classes open, no eberron no oriental adventures. I know you guys could offer up some real SOB's here and thats what Im looking for, real nasty evil guys who would love nothing else than to make party pee their pants as they run away! Blightersbane
#2 phaedrusxy May 31, 2009 12:43:16	Control-F search this for NPCs. There are already a few compilations of optimized villains. I don't think any are specifically gestalt... but IMO gestalt makes things too easy, anyway. In my experience, optimizing NPCs is easier than optimizing PCs in many ways, mostly because you get to ignore LA and use CR instead. It is fairly easy to build an optimized NPC or group of NPCs that can wipe the floor with even the most heavily optimized PC group. What is difficult is making a build that challenges them but doesn't wipe them out. ;) At this level, vampires can be very nasty, and they are especially good at hit and run and wearing down the party's resources. I have a couple of vampire BBEG types in the Encounter Resource thread, which should be one of the first links you find searching the Handy Links for "NPC". If you really must have gestalt, then stick a nasty full martial build on the other side of my Psion Vampire NPC in the Encounter Resource thread. :P
#3 Senevri May 31, 2009 13:19:37	Undead BBEG + Lifeward + Blackfire.
#4 wings_of_peace May 31, 2009 16:15:33	For Gestalt I'd say you want some form of hard to avoid attacks combined with lots of Utility. Builds that emphasize energy drain for example like from a Soul Eater would make it harder for them to heal in combat. Touch attacks would be another good source of damage like from a Hellfire Warlock using an eldritch glaive to deal just plain mean amounts of damage. This is just a personal preference but I usually organize my Gestalts with one side combat one side some sort of utility (Usually a caster) Just cause it seems more helpful given that a non-gestalted character built right can still deal a crapload of damage.
#5 surreal Jun 01, 2009 1:51:11	Here's a random trio I made a while ago... just ignore the fact that I goofed on the fact that half-giants can't be phrenic. That part's not even a requirement; replace with class levels or another suitable template. Show The Sisters of Mercy Gravetouched Ghoul (Lachesis) side 1: swordsage 3/monk 1/crusader or warblade 1/shadowsun ninja 10/master of nine 5 side 2: primordial half giant 1/gravetouched ghoul 2/phrenic 2/warmind 10/lurking terror 3/evolved undead 1/spellstiched 1 buffs: defensive precognition, force screen Medium Undead (Augmented, Psionic) HP = 20d12 + 40 (desecrate) + 40 (corpsecrafter) HP = 216, fast healing 3 Initiative = +10 = +2 (dex) + 4 (corpsescrafter) + 4 (imp. initiative) speed: 90’ = 30’ base + 10 corpsecrafter + 10 speed of thought + 30 monk +10’ (collar) AC = 52 = 10 + 2 (dex) + 8 (armor) + 3 (NA) + 8 (defl.) +6 (NA, iron bones) +7 (def. procog. insight) +8(shield) BAB/grapple: 17 / 30 (powerful build, Str) attack: claw 1d4, bite 1d6, unarmed full attack: 2 claws, 1 bite, or flurry, or maneuvers space/reach: 5’/5’ Saves: 18/24/26 ... base 9/11/11 + 2 (spellstiched) + 7 (def. procog. insight) + stats Feats: multiattack (bonus), speed of thought, improved paralysis, contagious paralysis, adaptive style, dodge, blind fight, improved initiative, boost spell resistance, ??? (x2) Abilities: base: 16/12/8/14/15/12... Str +6+4(insight), Dex +2, Int+8, Wis +6, Cha +14 Abilities: Str 28, Dex 14, Con -, Int 24, Wis 22, Cha 26 skills: no racial bonuses, +8 hide, +6 move silently (collar), max out rogue skills, pump cc into UMD Special Attacks contagious paralysis, Fort DC = 33 paralysis - bite or claw, 1d4+1 rounds, DC cha based + 7 ghoul fever - bite (Fort save, 1d3 con/1d3 dex), DC cha based sweeping strike Special Qualities powerful build superior low-light vision darkvision 90’ hide in plain sight DR 3/-, and DR 5/silver and magic cold resistance 10 Spell/Power Resistance = 10+HD+5 (Daazzix) + 2 (profane) turn resistance +8 +4(armor of darkness) diet dependant chain +4 to Str/Con/AC (warmind, insight) Phrenic powers Items: Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis Spell-like Abilities (spellstiched) 1: ???, ??? 2: necrotic cyst, ??? 3: haste, ??? 4: iron bones, Freedom of Movement 5: ??? 6: necrotic eruption SLA (evolved undead, 1/day): Cloudkill or Greater Dispel Magic SLA (primordial): Invisibility Powers: (133 PP) 1: expansion, ??? 2: hustle 3: ??? 4: ??? 5: ??? Phrenic powers... see SRD Maneuvers: ??? (potential 9th level maneuvers from all schools) Other notes: Vampire Lord (Atropos) side 1: Warlock 12/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Demonbinder side 2: Primordial Half-Giant 1/Vampire 8/Vampire Lord 3/Lurking Terror 3/Master of the Unseen Hand 5 buffs: demonbind Medium Undead (Augmented) HP = 20d12 + 80 (corpsecrafter & desecrate) + 20 (vampire lord) + 45 (demonbind) HP = 281, fast healing 8 Initiative = Dex + 4(corpsecrafter) + 4 (imp. init) Speed: 40’ land, 50’ flight (perfect) AC = 36 = 10 + 4 (Dex) + 8 (+4 mithril chain shirt) + 14 (NA) BAB/grapple: 16/ 29 attack: 2 slams, eldritch blast full attack: space/reach: 5’/5’ Saves: 17/23/28 ... base 6/6/12 + stats + Cha + iron will + lightning reflexes Abilities: base 14/12/8/15/12/16... Str +14, Dex +6, Int +8, Wis +4, Cha +12 Abilities: Str 28, Dex 18, Con - , Int 24, Wis 16, Cha 32 skills: max out crafting, face skills, and UMD... racial bonuses: +8 bluff, diplomacy, hide, intimidate, listen, move silently, search, spot, +12 sense motive Feats: iron will (bonus), leadership (bonus), alertness (bonus), combat reflexes (bonus), dodge (bonus), improved initiative (bonus), lightning reflexes (bonus), spell focus, greater spell focus, skill focus, craft wondrous item, craft arms/armor, craft construct, ??? (x3) Special Attacks Energy Drain - slam deals 3 negative levels Dominate - gaze or voice, does not require line of sight Blood Drain - 1d4+ Con Special Qualities powerful build Alternate Form - wildshape as move action Children of the Night - serves forever, can sense through their senses, 10 miles Control Weather/Fog Cloud - at will Create Spawn - fuzzy 3.0/3.5 area, spawn can never be lost Telepathy 100’ (with spawn to 1 mile) Turn Resistance +12 Damage Reduction 20/silver and magic Gaseous Form Resistances: 10 cold and electricity Spider Climb - at will Scry + 4 racial bonus Fast Healing 8 Telekinesis - at will, Master of the Unseen Hand Veils - IotSF Demonform (true seeing from Glabrezu) primordial SLA: ??? No weakness to garlic, running water, holy symbols, wooden stakes, etc. has normal reflections in mirrors can withstand sunlight, but takes -4 to all ability scores, attacks, saves, and skills To kill: remove head, burn body and head separately, scatter body ashes in running water, immerse head ashes in holy water, bury the immersed head ashes in consecrated ground Revival: unearth the head ashes, dry out, subject to unhallow spell, will regenerate in a week Dry Lich (Clotho) side 1: Cleric 3/Walker in the Waste 10/Paragnostic Apostle 5/Contemplative 1/Swarmshifter 1 side 2: Primordial Half-Giant 1/Incarnate 6/Necrocarnate 13 buffs: necrotic empowerment Medium Undead HP = 20d12 + 20*Cha + 20*2 (desecrate) + 20*2 (corpsecrafter) + 19*6 (vitality belt) + 100 (necrotic empowerment) HP = 670 (assuming Cha = 34), fast healing 2, DR 10/bludgeon and magic Initiative = +7 = 3 (Dex) +4 Speed = 40’ base AC = 41 = 10 + (2) Dex + 12 (+4 mithril full plate) + 9 (NA) +8 (nec. emp) BAB/grapple = +10/+16 attack = dessicating touch +xx (5d6 dehydration +Con drain +1d6 cold) or weapon full attack = touch +xx (5d6 dehydration +Con drain +1d6 cold) or weapon space/reach = 5’/5’ saves: 14/9/19 ... base 9/6/12 abilities: base 10/8/8/14/15/18... Str +4, Dex -2+8(enh), Int +4+8(enh), Wis +4+8(enh), Cha +6, Abilities: Str 14, Dex 14, Con - , Int 26, Wis 28, Cha 34 (w/+6 item) skills: +8 racial to hide, intimidate, listen, move silently, search, spot feats: heat endurance, corpsecrafter x5, undead meldshaper, practiced spellcaster, master of undeath Special Attacks aura of despair 60’ (save or be shaken for 1d4 rounds) constitution drain - on touch attack, 1d6 Con drain, gain 5 temp hp the wasting - disease 1/day pillar of salt - flesh to salt 1/day Special Qualities powerful build turn resistance +10 DR 10/bludgeon and magic, fast healing 2 immunities: undead stuff, dehydration, heat, polymorph, mind affecting unholy toughness water weakness Greater Drought Create Sand Golem Create Salt Mummy 9th level cleric spells, deathbound/necromancy/darkness domains Incarnum: 8 soulmelds, 5 chakras, 6 base essentia primordial SLA: ??? domains: deathbound, necromancy, darkness? Necrotic Empowerment: +8 Dex/Int/Wis (enhancement), +100 temp hp, +8 NA, +5 Fort Maybe go with Archivist base instead? ********************************* Ghoul - capable battlefield control/wide scale (9th level maneuvers, Master of Nine) --- especially Setting Sun (throwing) and contagious paralysis - stealth and infiltration - shadow sun ninja - huge speed, AC, good saves, high spell resistance, (invisibility) - impressive array of buffs and abilities through warmind, spellstiched, and phrenic --- choice of spells/powers will greatly affect what kind of roles she plays - carrier for the necrotic cyst; sneak in and infect important targets Vampire - defensive oriented: debuffer, veils and the highest saves and damage reduction - unlimited minions (spawn, dominate, etc) - leadership oriented, in addition to the minions - heals her sisters and the undead army with her eldritch utterdark blasts - creates golems and items Lich - creates the undead army - tank at 670 hp - 9th level cleric casting - aura of despair - scry and control through the necrotic cyst - versatility through soulmelds - can cast Mantle of the Icy Soul + Algid Enhancement to further improve sisters (+7 deflection AC, +1d8+7 hp, + 7 attack rolls) Ghoul + Shadesteel Golem - shadow sun ninja stances give off light or dark; light will haste the Shadesteel, dark will heal it and give it concealment - Shadesteel gives off negative energy pulse, heals undead around it Vampire + golems - shadesteel is healed by darkness - clay is healed by acid Lich + Vampire - creates the army - spellstitch the powerful ones Ghoul + Lich - ghoul sneaks in and delivers the necrotic cyst (or uses necrotic eruption), lich can now see through the infected victim(s), can control them, or kill them at any time Ghoul + Vampire - throw enemies into the veils
#6 17flyingaxes Jun 01, 2009 5:27:53	I've had a lot of fun pairing wizard/incantatrix levels alongside evil cleric. Spellstitched for raise dead as a spell-like ability, and then provided your int is high enough you can make a bunch of spells permanent on yourself and allies, especially if they have spells as well. Good way to get a + to almost everything on the character sheet for the entire party.
#7 hijaxx Jun 01, 2009 6:48:53	Control-F search this for NPCs. There are already a few compilations of optimized villains. I don't think any are specifically gestalt... but IMO gestalt makes things too easy, anyway. In my experience, optimizing NPCs is easier than optimizing PCs in many ways, mostly because you get to ignore LA and use CR instead. It is fairly easy to build an optimized NPC or group of NPCs that can wipe the floor with even the most heavily optimized PC group. What is difficult is making a build that challenges them but doesn't wipe them out. ;) At this level, vampires can be very nasty, and they are especially good at hit and run and wearing down the party's resources. I have a couple of vampire BBEG types in the Encounter Resource thread, which should be one of the first links you find searching the Handy Links for "NPC". If you really must have gestalt, then stick a nasty full martial build on the other side of my Psion Vampire NPC in the Encounter Resource thread. :P +1. no, screw that, +500 gazillion. that is just so much the key to screwing up CR-to-Party level guidelines. In the immortal words of Carnivore: "try this:" anthropomorphic giant squid vampire 10/soul eater 2/dervish 8//warblade 5/dervish 2/soul eater 5/warblade 8 you can surely move around the level to make it fit with gestalt rules you have 10 natural attacks per round this is doubled by A Thousand Cuts. so you get 20 you bestow 4 negative levels per touch. thats 80 negative levels in a round, or 40 when you dont use ATC. you also get some nifty maneuvers.
#8 dandu Jun 01, 2009 7:28:57	Monk/Paladin (Serenity)/Sacred Fist//Warlock/Hellfire Warlock On a more serious note, maybe you should try something like a Rogue/Chameleon//Factorum. Do a bit of everything, ever. Versatility and moderate to high power should be a decent challenge to your PCs.
#9 surreal Jun 01, 2009 10:51:36	There was a lot of discussion on Warblade//Factotum on this board at one point.
#10 phaedrusxy Jun 01, 2009 12:33:03	And along the lines of (ab)using the CR system: take something that is physically powerful, with a decent amount of hit dice, but a low CR. Let's use a Hill Giant. Now add caster levels to it. You don't even need gestalt for this, as these are non-associated class levels. So they only increase the CR by 1/2 each (if you add fewer than his hit dice). So our CR 7 hill giant can have 6 caster levels added to him, and still only increase his CR to 10. Remember, this is without gestalt. So, a hill giant cleric 6 is CR 10, but has 12 giant hit dice and 6 cleric hit dice. Give him Practiced Spellcaster, and use all his spells on buffs, and he should be quite a handful for a level 8 party. This works even better as you go up in levels, because the hit dice to CR ratios get even bigger, and so does the number of levels you can add on at "half price". The above example might be a bit better with an ogre cleric, as he could have 9 cleric levels and still technically only be CR 10 (starts at CR 3, the first four add +2, and then 5 more bring us to 10). This guy has 13 total hit dice, 9th level cleric casting, and ogre racial mods, and he's technically only CR 10 without gestalt. You could add 10 levels of Crusader on the other side, if you want to use that. :D
#11 naldor Jun 01, 2009 13:28:07	I'd say go grab that lovely CR 3 Monstrous crab and apply oh say, the Legendary template to it. +10 str, other bonuses. All for only +2 CR. Along the line of nonassociated class levels, you could add 16 levels of sorcerer to a Kraken and still be only CR 20. Nasty, no?
#12 jseah Jun 01, 2009 13:50:27	I say use a true Evil Mastermind style character. Erudite (Spell To Power) on one side Archivist on the other Every spell in the game. Almost all powers in the game. Insane flexibility. Chameleon's a race right? If yes, good. Have him copiously use Divination magic to keep an eye on everything. He tries to prevent them from knowing this. If they have protection, send them "helpers". Pull strings, make friends, corrupt every city they visit. Turn into people, change identities like clothing. Be the Duke's lover, the valet grooming the King's horses and the messenger pigeon roosting the loft. All at the same time Never look them in the face. If the PCs ever get to meet him, he's screwed up badly. Just run. Does things like send his minions on scry-and-die missions. And while everything is seemingly falling apart around them and joining the Dark Side, all the NPCs (if corrupted) give the players pointless quests that take lots of time but pay well to keep them busy. - Eg. travelling half the world on a rickety ship to slay some dragon or resolve a famine, pay out? how's 20k gold sound? No? 40k? 60? Or try to arrest them. Make the players choose whether to stand their ground against the forces of darkness (and in the process slaughter most of the town because town guards are always useless NPCs) or run and see the town fall into his evil clutches. Lose the battle but win the war. XD Have him manipulate the players enough and when they see your notes at the end over the crumbling towers of the capital, they'll agree that's one of the most irritating SOBs they've ever faced.
#13 phaedrusxy Jun 01, 2009 15:54:21	Have him copiously use Divination magic to keep an eye on everything. He tries to prevent them from knowing this. If they have protection, send them "helpers". Pull strings, make friends, corrupt every city they visit. Turn into people, change identities like clothing. Be the Duke's lover, the valet grooming the King's horses and the messenger pigeon roosting the loft. All at the same time Never look them in the face. If the PCs ever get to meet him, he's screwed up badly. Just run. Does things like send his minions on scry-and-die missions. And while everything is seemingly falling apart around them and joining the Dark Side, all the NPCs (if corrupted) give the players pointless quests that take lots of time but pay well to keep them busy. - Eg. travelling half the world on a rickety ship to slay some dragon or resolve a famine, pay out? how's 20k gold sound? No? 40k? 60? Or try to arrest them. Make the players choose whether to stand their ground against the forces of darkness (and in the process slaughter most of the town because town guards are always useless NPCs) or run and see the town fall into his evil clutches. Lose the battle but win the war. XD Have him manipulate the players enough and when they see your notes at the end over the crumbling towers of the capital, they'll agree that's one of the most irritating SOBs they've ever faced. Jseah: That sounds like one of my characters. ;) Feel free to use him, or a character based on him. That version is ECL 12. For a level 10 version, I'd leave off the homebrew stuff and contemplative levels, and just use scrolls of Magic Jar, Imprison Possessor, and Necrotic Tumor as needed. Hmm... or you could just use a sorcerer version, or even dread necro, and leave off the Ur-Priest and Binder stuff. In fact, a kobold sorcerer with the Greater Draconic Rite could qualify for the homebrew PrC Stranger with the Burning Eyes (which is awesome) with only 9 sorcerer levels. I love this PrC, and it makes for an awesome BBEG. One of the prereqs is your own body has to have been destroyed. The main benefit is being able to use Magic Jar at will as a Supernatural ability. It's from Frank and K's Tome of Necromancy. The prereqs are not easy. You'll need to get Knowledge: Religion as a class skill somehow, and take two mostly useless metamagic feats.
#14 pyro_azer Jun 01, 2009 17:27:18	I believe this qualifies as a truly mean vile SOB http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-313633
#15 phaedrusxy Jun 01, 2009 20:07:37	One of my favorites. ;)
#16 blightersbane Jun 01, 2009 21:02:43	It' a 8th level gestault campaign, one that I DM for 25% of the time. I will list PC's below so you could think up some evil builds. Ive discussed my PC on this site, different thread. Half Orc 8 Barbarian / 8th Psion elf 8th Swashbuckler / 8th Scout Gnome 5 wizard / 5 cleric / 3 Ranger / 3 Mystic Theurge Catfolk 7th fighter / 7th Rogue 8th Druid / 4th Rogue / 4th Monk The bad guys I was looking for are guys that could be in a town, male, female spells vileness corrupted a-holes! Blightersbane
#17 Endarire Jun 01, 2009 21:53:34	I award ad-hoc XP and CR is rarely a limiting factor. Just give foes arbitrary bonuses and CR adjustments.
#18 phaedrusxy Jun 01, 2009 23:21:27	You've been given a lot of suggestions. You should be able to come up with at least an idea for the characters you're looking for, and we can help you get the most out of them. People typically don't just produce full builds on request. Just saying "I want them to be really evil" over and over again doesn't really tell us much. How are you going to do gestalt for the NPCs, anyway? Do racial CR increases and hit dice go on one side of the gestalt?