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| #1krivakiiiApr 19, 2008 13:50:00 | Just had a session last night, and my character seemed incredibly ineffective, so I'm looking for advice on things to improve. We're in a homebrew campaign world so we're trying to really use every mechanic developed by WotC and other things that look cool. This means there isn't really a focus to our enemies like undead, but it does mean almost anything from any book is available for use. So here's my character so far, 8th lvl gestalt cleric/wilder. We have 2 melee fighter types, a Master shape changing druid/bard, and a warlock/rogue. My character is trying to fill healing and arcane blaster. Some flavour character stuff is that this guy really likes elemental spirits (though I haven't summoned often). This is why most powers are elemental in nature. I haven't been interested in the melee cleric builds which is what I've found almost exclusively, but I am open to suggestions. Sorry to ramble, this is my first post. Anshuman Alignment: Neutral Good Cleric 6/Paragnostic Disciple 2, Wilder 8 Size/Type: Medium Humanoid (Planetouched) *affected like humanoid and outsider (Lesser Genasi variant) Hit Dice: 6d8+2d6 + 24 (84) Current HP: 23/84 Initiative: +3 (+3 Dex) Speed: 30 ft. (30 ft.) -> 20ft Armor Class: 21(24) (10 + 2 Dex + 8 DH +1 Nat) (+ 3 Shield) Flat Footed: 19(22) (10 + 8 DH +1 Nat) (+ 3 Shield) Touch: 16 (10 + 2 Dex + 4 Cha) Saves: Fort +8 (+5 base, +3 Con) Ref +5 (+2 base, +3 Dex) Will +12 (+8 base, +4 Wis) Abilities: Str 10, Dex 15(16), Con 15(16), Int 14, Wis 19, Cha 16(18) Brackets for boosted by items Skills: Autohypnosis (5 Ranks + 4 Wis + 2 Syn) +11 Balance (0 Ranks + 2 Dex) +2-4-3 Bluff (0 Ranks + 3 Cha) +3 Concentration (5 Ranks + 3 Con) +8 Diplomacy (5 Ranks + 3 Cha) +8 Heal (3 Ranks + 4 Wis) +7 Knowledge (Arcana) (9 Ranks + 2 Int + 0 Syn) +11 Knowledge (Religion) (8 Ranks + 2 Int) +10 Knowledge (Psionics) (5 Ranks + 2 Int + 2 Syn) +9 Knowledge (Planes) (1 Ranks +2 Int) +3 Knowledge (History) (2 Int + 5 headband) +7 Listen (4 Ranks + 4 Wis) +8 Sense Motive (0 Ranks + 4 Wis) +4 Spot (3 Ranks + 4 Wis) +7 Spellcraft (6 Ranks + 2 Int + 2 Syn) +10 Psicraft (6 Ranks + 2 Int + 2 Syn) +10 Tumble (2 Ranks + 2 Dex) +4 Speak Terran (1 Rank) Speak Celestial (1 Rank) Speak Fam Vorbir (1 Rank) Speak Infernal (1 Rank) Feats: Earth Devotion(CChamp): Use turn attempt+1 to affect 5ft sq/3 lvl (1 min) Chosen of Iborighu (Frostburn p47), gaze attack 30ft, F-DC18, 7 dmg +fatigued->exhausted Expanded Knowledge (Dimensional Hop)* Protection Devotion(CChamp): +4 Sacred bonus to AC 30ft, 3turns to use again *Bonus feat in place of Volatile mind as per Mind's Eye variant Educated Wilder Class Abilities: Turn undead (1d20+6/2d6+12) 7x/day Turn fire/Rebuke water (1d20+4/2d6+12) 7x/day Wild Surge +3, Psychic enervation (15%) Breathe water +1/5lvls saves against water spells and effect Darkvision 60ft Create water 1/day (5th lvl) Elude Touch (+4 touch AC) Surging Euphoria +1 Lore (like bardic knowledge d20+6) Mind over Body: +1 caster lvl to healing spells and ability enhancement/penalty spells Dragonscale husk (6+8/3, Check -4, Res Fire 5) Penetrating Insight: +1 caster lvl to overcome SR ->from CChampion Domains: Water (command water creatures, rebuke fire creatures) Sand (Create things from sand up to 8ft^3) - armour/weapon DC 10, MW DC +10, tool DC 7 Power Points: 58+16 1 (DC 15) - Energy ray(A), Crystal Shard(A), Dimensional Hop*(CP) 2 (DC 16) - Energy push(AV) 3 (DC 17) - Telekinetic Thrust(V) 4 (DC 18) - Dimension Door Let me know if there's anything else that's helpful! |
| #2krivakiiiApr 19, 2008 13:56:34 | I originally started this here in the general advice, and was directed to try in the CO thread. No one had suggestions on how to move it, so I've restarted it. There were few replies but one thought I was maybe jumping the gun and being a little self-centred and to wait it out. That last session was #12 and I've been a little concerned since session 3. I am open to suggestions and even some blunt truth so don't worry much about that ;), if I didn't want your honest help I wouldn't ask! Thanks everyone, and let me know if you need anything else! |
| #3krivakiiiApr 19, 2008 14:01:29 | And for anyone really eager for more context, we have a forum for the game here. You can check out what's going on in this homebrew world and can also see what the other characters can do (unfortunately I don't know since we're maintaining some secrecy, it's awesome!) |
| #4krivakiiiApr 19, 2008 21:20:36 | Was asked a question here in the original thread about character personality/backstory, so here goes. But character wise I'll start with backstory. So Anshuman is from a desert nomad tribe and has lived as a goat herder for ~20yrs. Then while he's out looking for water, which as a genasi allows a small group travel further in the desert, a messenger from his tribe tells him the Vizier in the nearby city is after him. So he runs. Hides in the desert for a few weeks. Eventually some traders cross his path and he convinces them to let him follow. He arrives at this bordertown, and some action goes down and he joins up with these other adventurers. From there, more adventures. More details here As for character personality, Anshuman is hot-tempered, inquisitive, and has strong values. He is very interested in spirits of an elemental nature, or that's how I've justified the focus on elemental powers and the water domain. Also related to the Earth Devotion (C Champ). |
| #5archerpwrApr 19, 2008 22:48:58 | Are you allowed to redo class levels? Archivist/ Sacred Exorcist//Psion Anarchic Initiate could pull off anything a cleric//wilder could, but better. |
| #6phoenix00Apr 19, 2008 23:05:48 | Same question as ArcherPWR but instead Cleric/Ardent. Less mad, and ardents with the right mantles fill what few weaknesses clerics have and help you buff faster. Also consider doing levels of ordained champion, it is fun in gestalt. |
| #7krivakiiiApr 19, 2008 23:16:21 | Thanks for the reply! Yeah, there is something brewing in our DMs head that will allow us to basically rebuild the character. I've seen Ardent, but I'm not familiar with Archivist. Psion is a tad trickier with the current ability scores, will ask about that though. Any quick tips on those classes that I should pay particular attention to? |
| #8phoenix00Apr 20, 2008 0:42:39 | When pairing Ardent with Cleric in Gestalt you are looking for powers that do these things. Mobility (freedom mantle is awesome for this) Battlefield Control Direct Damage (only choose 1 or 2 powers that does this) Buffs that work great with Linked Power (Linked Power and dimension hop or another swift action power is awesome). Defensive buffs that work on miss chance and illusion since cleirc already rocks with ac. Saves or Loses without the death descriptor. Make sure also to get metamorphsis, temporal acceleration (time stop at level ), schism (combine with practiced manifester for the ability to do powers at your manifester level -2 with your second mind. Now you may wonder where are you getting all these unique powers, you don't see them on any of the mantles. Well read these rules http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a As long as the powers have a theme, and your DM okays them you can modify the mantles powers, adding powers and switching out powers. With the proper choice of powers you make a cleric/wizard into a person who can fufill all the god roles, can do so spontaneously on the fly, and still is a CodZilla. A cleric and a wizard. There is a reason why Cleric/Ardent is one of my favorite gestalt builds. |
| #9krivakiiiApr 21, 2008 17:24:22 | Thanks Phoenix for the tips, but could you give me another. What exactly are the GOD roles? Are they described somewhere? It seems you use Cleric//Ardent in a non-melee heavy capacity which is my goal: we already have a lockdown guy, a crack down guy, and a master wildshaping druid so melee seems pretty solid. We lack ranged attacks, so any other suggestions on filling that kind of role are appreciated (unless there's a reason you wouldn't want ranged fire power). |
| #10robbypantsApr 22, 2008 8:47:09 | Even if you kept the class levels the same, I'd think that by rearranging a few things, you could pull off a very effective tank. A few things I might have tried from the beginning would include: [INDENT] I'd rearrange the stats to Str 15(16), Dex 14, Con 15(16) , Int 10, Wis 19, Cha 16(18) If you take the War domain and pick the right deity (or worship an ideal), you could gain proficiency and Weapon Focus in a good martial two-handed weapon. Several Wilder powers can really help you tank. If you take the Psicrystal feat, you can share powers with your psicrystal for free. Thus, when you manifest Vigor, both you and your crystal get 5 HP per PP, netting a total of 10 HP per PP. Using Share Pain, you can split the damage you take evenly between you and your crystal. Using the Expanded Knowledge feat can get you discipline-specific powers, such as Schism (almost as good as a 3.0 Haste). This will allow you to either manifest two powers per round, or full attack and manifest. Thus, you can easily replenish your temporary HP with Vigor if you're getting low.[/INDENT] Still, as suggested, as long as you have cleric on one side, you don't really need to bother with wilder on the other side. Other psionic classes will give you more versitility and better synergy. |
| #11krivakiiiApr 22, 2008 9:43:16 | I appreciate the thought, but I don't think tanking is the best idea. We have 2 tank types already with a druid that likes to wildshape into big nasties during combat. I don't want to interfere in that, but aiding them through buffs, debuffs, battlefield manipulation would be great |
| #12carnivoreApr 22, 2008 11:15:41 | i agree ... Cleric// Ardent .... but instead do this: Cloistered Cleric 8/ Ardent 8 .... without Multiclassing.... you get Great BAB, Full Spellcasting and Full Manifesting more Skill points and Great Skills... but i would rearrange the rolls like this: 10 Str 15 Dex 15 Con 16 Int 19 Wis 14 Cha take the Feat: Intuitive Attack(to focus on Wis to attack...use light weapons) or Weapon Finnesse(to focus on Dex) :D |
| #13krivakiiiApr 22, 2008 12:18:25 | I was looking at Cloistered cleric//Ardent with some Malconvoker as well perhaps. Will look into Intuitive Attack, thanks! |
| #14phoenix00Apr 22, 2008 13:47:04 | Cloistered Cleric vs Cleric doesn't really matter. The extra skill points are nice, and besides the hit points you lose nothing really. Consort your DM The GOD role is a term that is often used in combination with wizard, but it isn't something unique to a wizard. The GOD role is a position you play in the party (like tank, face, etc) Repeating something from Treantmonk's guide to Wizards: Being a God Show What do you mean God? ![]() We've all heard that the standard party in D&D revolves around 4 iconic roles. For those who have spent the last 25+ years of their life NOT playing D&D those roles are: Meleer, Healbot, Arcane caster and Skillmonkey. The rest of us knew that already. In other words - if you go back to Basic D&D there were 4 human classes. Thief (now we call them rogues to be politically correct), Magic User (now we call them Wizards since it sounds less boring), Clerics and Fighters. However, rules have changed and party roles have changed. A party with the 4 iconic roles should do just fine - but I would define the roles differently. Out of combat you have 4 roles: Social ("The Fop"): This guy thinks he's the leader. Whatever - he does the talking well everyone else lets him. Sneak ("The Corpse"): This guy sneaks ahead to scout the enemy's lair and finds and disarms traps for the group. Why do I call him the "Corpse"? - reread what he does again. Healbot ("The Gimp"): Anyone who spends his character's resources for healing is clearly the party Gimp. That said - you want a party gimp. Preferably - not you. (though it can be done with Arcane Disciple) Utility Caster ("Everything Else"): The party transporter, the party Diviner. One way or another - this is the casters' role - in other words - this is you. That's it - everyone else is just taking up space. You should have all those bases covered - but let’s face it - D&D is primarily about combat. No matter which of the above your character is good at, if he can't contribute in a fight - your character is a liability to your party. In combat there are also 4 roles - these are the roles that get filled: The Big Stupid Fighter: This role involves two things: Doing HP damage to BBEG, forcing BBEG to attack you with his viscous weaponry. The Big Stupid Fighter is not always a fighter (though stereotypically he is). He may be a Barbarian, a Summoned Critter, or a Druid. In order to qualify as a Big Stupid Fighter he should be any character that actively tries to be the target of enemy attacks. For those who wonder why I would label this character as "stupid" regardless of their INT score - reread the previous sentence. The Glass Cannon: This role involves one thing: Doing HP damage to BBEG. The Glass Cannon is like the Big Stupid Fighter except he does not want to take damage. Usually this is not due to superior intelligence - but instead due to inferior HP or AC (or in most cases - both). The Glass Cannon is often a Rogue (Or Rouge for our 13 year old readers), a Gish, an Archer, or a Blaster (the inferior wizard). God: When reality would entail the above two meeting a rather messy end - someone will need to make some adjustments to said reality in order for the above two to instead meet glorious victory. What other label could such a force be labelled as than "God"? Well - how about "Primary Caster" One label or another - this guy needs to make Reality his Witch (replace the "W" in your head.) in order to do his job effectively. The Waste of Space: This is the character of the player who thought a Bard/Monk/Sorcerer multiclass was an excellent idea - or who thought healing was a good "combat" role. This character just doesn't fill any of the above roles well enough to be anything but a liability to the group. You probably have had one in your group. Heck, you probably have one in your current group. Don't sweat it - as long as it isn't you. * Why isn't the Healer useful in combat? Good question. There are two ways you can live your "pretend" life - reactively or proactively. God will alter reality to prevent damage, a healer will try to do "damage control" (pun intended) after the damage has been taken. Simple truth: The mechanics of the game make preventing damage more efficient then healing damage after the fact. That's not to say a well placed "Heal" or even "CLW" never has use in combat - but if you're doing your job - it should never be required as a primary role. How Wizard's fill the 8 roles: As a wizard, you can technically fill any 4 of the non-combat roles, as well as any 4 of the combat roles. You just can't fill ALL those roles Despite what you may have read elsewhere - a wizard has limited memorizations and castings per day - no matter the size of his spell book. In other words - it's not the SIZE of the spell book that counts - it's how you use it. Though let’s face facts - the SIZE is still pretty important... The Fop: Charm person, Suggestion - you can fill this role if you are willing to waste...um, I mean "invest" the spells to do it. Personally - I would let anyone else willing to fill this role do so. The Corpse: Invisibility, Summon Dead Celestial Monkey (SM I), Fly (move silently), Divination (for scouting) - yeah you can do this too - but honestly - this is a last resort - let anyone else fill this role first if it would involve any risk to your person. After all - look at the NAME! Also - if you find yourself spending a lot of spells to fill this role, and chose not to play a Beguiler - you may not be an idiot, but let’s face it - you aren't brilliant either. The Healbot: The only way you can fill this role is with Arcane Disciple (healing). If you do get delegated this position - I can say with authority - "ASSUME THE POSITION". Save your crying for after the others are asleep. At least make sure the wands of CLW are bought with party funds or you can change "GIMP" to "CHUMP" The Utility Caster: Occasionally the Cleric can fill this role - but usually it will be you. Conjuration, Divination and Transmutation spells will usually be the ones required. Your speciality will be "Party Taxi" - but all the other stuff gets filled in here too. The Big Stupid Fighter: ![]() You can never PERSONALLY be the Big Stupid Fighter - but you can summon one. If your party lacks the BSF and you want to know how to fill the niche with your Wizard - you should scroll down until you get to my sig and click on "Mastering the Malconvoker" and I will guide you through the build of this wizard. The Glass Cannon: ![]() The Gish build and the Blaster both fill this role in very different ways. Personally - I'm not big on playing Glass Cannons - and will let others explain how to make a most excellent GISH build. It's amazing how many people on these boards drool over Gishes. "Oh please - can I use godlike power to become one of the pathetic grunts who get all dirty and bloody and risk death every battle?" The popularity is puzzling to me. Yeah - Gishes make great Glass Cannons - but I just don't see the appeal in NOT being God... The Waste of Space: ![]() Yeah - it happens. Give your wizard too many roles and he will run out of spells and be a waste of space before you can say "I suck". Multiclass your wizard and expect to fill this role until you get a few levels of your "Hybrid" PrC. Or skip the Hybrid PrC altogether and just suck forever. As in the above illustration - Drow wizard's really rock - well, at least they suck them. God: ![]() This is the role this thread is based upon. Three kinds of wizards alter reality so that the Glass Cannon and the Big Stupid Fighter think they are better than they are. Those three wizards are Battlefield Controllers, Buffers, and Debuffers. Your best bet is to do a bit of all of them - but you can make wizards exclusive to each role as well without sucking. Three Ways to Play God: Battlefield Control: ![]() In order to be an effective battlefield controller - you should consider your primary goal to line up your enemies flanked by your Glass Cannon and Big Stupid Fighter one at a time and backwards, all while standing on their heads. This will make the BSF and the GC win the combat with little damage to themselves - and they will feel like "they" won. That's the point - you're God after all, let the mortals have their victory. Debuffing: ![]() In order to be an effective Debuffer - you should consider your primary goal to have your BBEG standing in front of your GC and BSF dazed, stunned, nauseated, STR = 1, Dex = 1, Level = 1, and Blind for good measure. This will make the BSF and the GC win the combat with little damage to themselves - and they will feel like "they" won. That's the point - you're God after all, let the mortals have their victory. (Note to readers: Debuffing can more literally be termed as reducing attributes or levels of opponents - I extend the term to be anything that impairs or damages the abilities of the enemy - which is why I include things like "blinding" to be a debuff) Buffing: ![]() In order to be effective at buffing - you turn your Big Stupid Fighter into a Colossal, Stupid Fighter on crack, and your Glass Cannon into an Adamantium Chain Gun. This will make the BSF and the GC win the combat with little damage to themselves - and they will feel like "they" won. That's the point - you're God after all, let the mortals have their victory. Which is better? It depends. They all rock - but Debuffing tends to be better against a single BBEG, while Battlefield Control tends to work better against multiple foes with my experience. Buffing is more of a tertiary role for |
| #15phoenix00Apr 22, 2008 14:20:22 | Okay now that you look at the previous thread and the roles, lets look at you and your party. You got plenty of tanks and big guys, you don't need anymore. I would suggest against summoner theme for that exact reason. I don't know what you mean by crackdown guy. Lockdown fighter types are great, and they work even better when you apply battlefield control to the battle. Lockdown fighters have limited amount of attack of oppurtunites and limited range. Thus separating the enemies so the lockdown fighter is only facing one or two at a time greatly increase his effectiveness. --- So what are you missing Glass Canon. I have never been a fan of Glass Cannons as a primary role, but lucky for you, you only need two or so direct damage powers to be effective at direct damage. This is because you can do damage spontaneously, and for the most part psionics do direct damage than arcane or divine unless you specifically optimize those builds so heavily and force yourself into that role. With only one or two powers you got versatility down, and good results with DD. Clerics are the kings of buffing and especially party buffing. It only gets sicker when you add the psionic time stop (giving them multiple rounds to buff), linked power (two buffs for 1 action), schism (for more actions per round), as well as many swift/immediate action powers which are located in the psionic world. Battlefield Control. Look up Fabricate, Fabricate Greater, and Minor Creation. Awesome spells besides the long casting time. Now looked up linked power. Combine these two items and usher an evil laugh. You do battlefield control far better than they ever did in Full Metal Alchemist, just clap your hands and now a prison of earth/stone/whatever is available is surrounding the enemy. It is a a wall of stone but far more useful. Offense and defense all roiled in one. All you need now is 1 or 2 powers to restrict movement and you will have typical battlefield control down pat. Also look at the Divert Teleport power for the gravy of battlefield control, no more teleports, great power prior to abusing it, broken when you do abuse it(chrono legionaire was a great build doing so) Mobility, Clerics lack fly and teleport, Psionics fix this. The two other things you may want with your psionic powers are one good save or lose that is will based, one good save or lose that is fort based, and possibily another battlefield control that is reflex based (like almost all spells that aren't damage based that target reflex). Also you can use psionics to fill in the gaps of defense that clerics have, Clerics rock at buffing AC, they aren't that good at doing things such as miss chance, psionics change that. ---- In sum play a party buffer codzilla and use psionics to fill what little gaps you have and to add versatility and spontaneity. Read these threads http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=8968131&postcount=15 http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=624041 http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=747757 |
| #16krivakiiiApr 22, 2008 14:59:58 | I think you have nailed exactly what I'm looking for Phoenix, thanks! As for crack down, our lockdown guy does get some 5 AoOs with reach so the other intends to direct more into that zone and help with the hacking. I'll check you're links, but it was my impression that Summoned creatures could effectively fill the roles of many wall and trap like effects but remain mobile. Didn't plan on summoning every round either leaving time open for walls and other buffing. Let me know if you have sources on this kind of comparison or maybe sequences of actions for those types (i've seen it once...) Thanks again |