Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 satanicway Aug 10, 2008 14:16:35	I'm starting a new char on a campaing im playing, since my last one is now dead on some t-rex stomach... Now i have a Sorcerer 4. With Str 13 / Dex 18 / Con 18 / Wis 16 / Int 18 / Cha 18. (Pretty lucky roll ^^, never did this well before) Because of my character story, i wanted him to start as a sorcerer, and them start to look for more versatility. I was thinking about Ultimate Magus. But them i discovered that it requires only sorc 1. Any idea of how to optmize this sorcerer? Hes a studyous, not a fighter. Any idea of how to make him descent, or any trick to make Ultimate Magus worthable to a sorcerer 4? (sorcer 4 / Mage 3 / Ultimate Magus 10 / Sorcerer +3 will end with 17 sorcerer and 10 mage... 8 and 5 circle... weak... Sorcerer 4 / Mage 3 / Ultimate Magus 10 / Mage +3 will end with 16 Mage and 11 sorcerer, 8 and 5 circle... weak again...) (This using the Praticed SpellCaster trick...) Any idea of other PrCs, feats or spells so i can optmize this sorcerer will have my thanks.
#2 vapthorne Aug 10, 2008 14:56:45	Did you check the Adaption section at the end of the Ultimate Magus section? There it mentions a variant that uses two spontanious caster classes to make the Ultimate Magus (ie, Sorcerer / War mage). With your high ability rolls, you can pull off a pretty mean Beguiler / Sorcerer / Ulitmate Magus combo. Consider a build like this: Beguiler 1 / Sorcerer 5 / U.M. 10 / Mage of the Arcane Order 4. Using the Practiced Spellcaster trick, this will net you: 11th Beguiler Spells (18th CL), which has plenty of good spells that will free up your selection of sorcerer spells. 18th Sorcerer Spells (22nd CL). 3 Bonus Metamagic feats (which helps qualify for MotAO), and Augment Spellcasting. Spell upto 6th level, for that needed versatility when the time calls. Just use prepare some empty slots each day. You only need three feats (1 metamagic, 1 Cooperative Spell, and Arcane Prep.) and skills that you should already have. You can tweak build further by trading your familair for rapid meta-magic or taking a bloodline feat from dragon magizine. You can even subsitute Beguiler for Dread Necromancer or Warmage... build I think Beguiler works best.
#3 satanicway Aug 10, 2008 15:18:59	Beguiler, seems alittle too far from a studyous character for the story of this character. But its not something to just throw away. If it only was able to cast spountaneous of 2 circle, and decorated from spell book of first, them it would be ok. 4 sorcerer, 1 Wizard, 10 UM, Full Casting PrC 5 +praticed spellcaster trick Sorcerer 19 / Wizard 8 or Sorcerer 18 / Wizard 9 with some tweaks. But enough to have acess to 9 level spells, and some versatility from wizard spell list. Maybe something that could end as sorcerer 16 / Mage 15 would lack 9 circle but have alot of versatility... idk... The worst part is the NEED for 3 Wizard levels... since i already have sorcerer 4...
#4 bergtann Aug 10, 2008 15:31:58	The easies way is simply to ask your DM to be allowed to switch the prepared/spont requirements of the class. I see nothing in that that would make it more powerful, quite the opposite. Second easiest: Arcane Preparation feat will let you qualify with Sorc 4, Wiz 1. Do the PS trick, and I agre that finishing up with Magus of the Arcane Order is best. With Wizard backing you up, it is not essential, though. You are going to be lagging on high spell levels with this build. UM normally lags 2 levels at the end, and the Sorc is one behind to start with.
#5 vapthorne Aug 10, 2008 15:37:14	The worst part is the NEED for 3 Wizard levels... since i already have sorcerer 4... Not quite, if you read the adaptation paragraph for the Ultimate Magus, page 80: "Another variant might be one that melds two spontaneous casting arcane characters, such as a sorcerer and a warmage..." This is sort of opened to a DM's interpretation, but using this variant changes the requirements, since there are no spontaneous classes that uses spellbooks. Therefore, you should need one class to be able to cast 2nd level spells and the other to cast 1st level. Sorcerer 4 / Beguiler 1 is perfect.
#6 satanicway Aug 10, 2008 15:38:47	No... the pre-requisites says: You need to Prepare 2 level spells from a SPELLBOOK. =/ The feat didnt allow a sorcerer to use a spell book to prepare his second circle spells. And my DM is alittle rule lawyer when it comes to PrC, Feats and anything that might give a player some advantage...
#7 satanicway Aug 10, 2008 15:40:33	Not quite, if you read the adaptation paragraph for the Ultimate Magus, page 80: "Another variant might be one that melds two spontaneous casting arcane characters, such as a sorcerer and a warmage..." This is sort of opened to a DM's interpretation, but using this variant changes the requirements, since there are no spontaneous classes that uses spellbooks. Therefore, you should need one class to be able to cast 2nd level spells and the other to cast 1st level. Sorcerer 4 / Beguiler 1 is perfect. I see your point, but it will take a huge effort to make my dm let any change in a prc.
#8 bergtann Aug 10, 2008 15:44:19	The feat says "just as a Wizard does" Although most DMs do not literally enforce it to the point of needing a spellbook, that is leniency. As the feat is written, you need a spellbook. Also suits a studious character. Just make sure your DM realizes that it is limited to your spells known list, and that you can't use it to memorize any spell. Edit: You may also be able to get in with shenanigans such as Earth Spell or Precocious Apprentice, but Id think most DMs would be more likly to veto them. You could also drop UM and go straight Mage of the Arcane Order, topping up with maybe Fiend-blooded. I see your wish though, the fixed UM is just plain fun!
#9 satanicway Aug 10, 2008 16:22:31	I never really liked Mage of the Arcane Order. =X But i think i will stick with trying to make my DM allow me to make Sorcerer 4 and Wizard 1 to enter on Ultimate Magus. Since i dont really know if he will allow it, i might as well think on another idea for this character. Hes a sorcerer 4 now. What i doesnt like about sorcerers is their lack of versatility, thats what i was trying to correct with Wizard/UM build. But if i just focus entirely on damaging spells like Scorching Ray, and in future desintegrate and alike... that might not be exactly what i was looking for, but still fun to play. Any idea of how to make a sorcerer dish huge amount of damage? My first idea was sudden feats, plus duplicate spell and scorching ray at high levels... but im sure someone must know better ways to optmize a sorcerer for damage.
#10 bergtann Aug 10, 2008 16:29:03	One level of Sand Shaper add a crapton of spells known. You do lose one caster level though, so you'll be a bit futher behind. Fiend-blooded lets you get a few more spells known. Also, Runestaffs are beautiful magic items for Sorcerers.
#11 satanicway Aug 10, 2008 16:56:16	My dm never let us choose itens... Its almost impossible to buy a magic iten, and we just use what we get, so i cant depend on itens for versatility. All i can do is multclass or get a PrC from an oficial book, without any change or houserule that isnt explicit, even the most obvious ones, or forget the versatility and go directly for raw damaging power.
#12 bergtann Aug 10, 2008 17:04:19	Damage isn't that optimal in 3.5. Other people can help you much better with that than me, I never looked into it that much. I do know, PrCs that increase versatility are Sand Shaper (lots of spells, loses a caster level), Magus of the Arcane Order, and Fiend-Booded.
#13 ookamikiba Aug 10, 2008 18:22:13	It's far from optimal, but the Malconvoker is pretty powerful. To tell the truth, with ability score rolls like yours I'd consider a Paladin or Monk. Generally, MAD won't be a problem for ya.
#14 satanicway Aug 14, 2008 16:35:38	I'm bound to Sorcerer 4 to start... =/ And i need to be Good... T_T So i need a way to optimize this character. Belive me when i say that if i dont i will probably stand as the weakest of the characters on the table... well exept for the paladin... Any other prestige class, or idea or link as to the best way to optimize a sorcerer? All i have found so far is Abjurate champion... and UM... (I can use all wizards books, but no dragon magazine, neither non wizards books.)
#15 surreal Aug 17, 2008 12:02:47	There's always the standard sorcerer gish option with +paladin 2/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 5/sacred exorcist 8 That was the first thing I thought of when I saw your lead-in of Sorcerer 4.
#16 bergtann Aug 17, 2008 13:00:26	Dragon Compendium bloodline feats. Can only have one, but it gives +1 spell known for every spell level you get. Some of those spells are good. At level 6 you can then get Kin Mastery which grants Turning, and all the goodies that come from that. Note that if you specifically require Turn Undead you must go with Necromantic bloodline. Still, that does add Vamiric Touch, Cause Fear etc. to your spells known.
#17 satanicway Aug 27, 2008 17:12:19	Couldnt find these bloodline feats you are talking about. Dragon Compendium is a dragon magazine? Or what? Couldnt find it... I could opt for a Gish build, but the DM never allows more them 2 classes and 1 prestige class, cause he thinks its make no sense for history purposes... Im thinking about doing a pure blaster. Save/Die like spells never works on this game... so im not inclined on using it. The DM just use "big boss battles" everytime, 1 vs group... this makes the enemy level higher, and his saves too, and the dm seems to think that if someone just throw a spell and kill the enemy on first round, that it made no sense and the fight didnt offered challenge, so save/die spells never works... Any idea of how to make a great pure blaster?
#18 bjorsa Aug 27, 2008 17:45:35	Yes. Use Wings of Flurry (or Scorching Ray if your DM doesn't allow splat). I wrote an entry about it - "Sample Blaster" - in the Short Sorcerer Handbook that floats around here since yesterday. Hope it helps.
#19 satanicway Aug 27, 2008 18:37:02	I didnt find Wings of Flurry in any book. Can you tell me from where it is? I read your handbook, there is any other feat combo i can use to improved my damage. I probably will focus on ray spells, since 90% of the time we will face one enemy, or two... so area isnt that great, will hurt more us them the enemy.
#20 bjorsa Aug 27, 2008 18:56:34	Races of the Dragon. Wings of Flurry DOES NOT hit your allies. Did you read the guide? But by all means, take the arcane thesis route and use it on scorching ray instead. One way is to take Eschew Materials (-1), Snowcasting (+0), Energy Substitution (-1), Energy Admixture (+3), for a total of +1 - add more Energy Admixtures as soon as you get a new feat. Every admixture adds another x2 damage. Split Ray is a given.
#21 bjorsa Aug 27, 2008 18:59:41	Oh, I beg your pardon for being such a stupid git. Never noticed you wanted to optimize a sorcerer LEVEL 4. It's very tough to do. Have a look in the "most overpowered casters" thread, especially the sorcerer by Carnivore. Sorry.
#22 satanicway Aug 27, 2008 19:35:33	bjorsa: No problem, your posts was of some help. I just found the Wings of Fury, thanks to you pointing the book. Its a aweasome spell. Force Damage, high damage, not high circle, and affects many targets. Sure i will get this spell when i reach enough level. But since 90% of the time my group face just 1 big powerful creature of ND much bigger them us, anything with a save is probably not happening, and this allows evasion guys to just be imune to me. The spell is great, but to this campaing, i need something that relly more on feats that the Overpowered Caster NPC cannot have. (Since if the DM copy me, i will hit him with a chair or something... lol) This are the feats i think are good to a scorching ray build. Split Ray Arcane Thesis Blistering Spell Fiery Spell Quicken Spell Maximize Spell The DM will probably not allow Arcane Thesis to make the spell cheaper. I will have a HARD work to make him undersntad that it can affect more them 1 metamagic at a time, and that it can make a metamagic comes by cost of 0. So no use of +0 metamagics to lower the spell circle for me. T_T This campaing will go till lvl 15 probably... so i should think of how i will end up being. I will probably be Sorcerer 5 / Some PrC 10 But i need to find a good PrC that give unique abilitys that boos my damage output. Since the "Favored of DM NPC Sorcerer/Wizard Gestalt with Spellfire that works on area spells, at will, without preparation, and add the spell to her spell list" will be your utility caster FOR SURE, i think i should focus on something that i can try to be better them the NPC... Since the DM dosnt know how to optmize... i may give this a try.