How to Polymorph - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

How to Polymorph

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
furious5k
Jul 25, 2008 13:06:19 Hi,

I've been looking through druid books, but I have not had much luck trying to transfer what I've read to "how this would work on my cleric".

Could someone help explain how the Polymorph and Shapechange spells could improve my fighting capabilities. I'm rather confused about the whole thing. For example, Ogre Mage is supposed to be really great, but it looks worthless to me. Replacing my Str 20 with 21 and Con 16 with 17 doesn't look helpful. Do I actually add the template? What about monsters that don't have a "as character" section? Is the LA the maximum HD allowance for the template?

This is all confusing me greatly, any help understanding how the whole thing works and what forms I should be changing to will be greatly appreciated.
#2
cycada
Jul 25, 2008 13:09:45 Well if you've been looking through Druid books, then your most likely seeing threads about Wild Shape, which is vastly different than the Polymorph line.

Anyway, most wizards/sorcs/etc who are polymorph focus dump Str and Dex in favor of Con and their casting stat, instead relying on the altered stats given by the Polymorph line.

When you polymorph you gain all (ex) abilities of the new form, the appearance of the new form, and the physical stats of the new form. This is an amazing boon, especially at higher levels when you can start turning into things like Horned Devils (the dragon looking devils) that have ~30 str.

Lastly, the only restriction of the Polymorph spell is their HD compared to yours. The LA doesn't even matter at all, as you aren't permanently taking on the form, nor are you completely the same.

My 2 platinum....
#3
jaronk
Jul 25, 2008 13:16:58 Actually I believe you gain the Ex Special Attacks of the new form, not the Ex Special Qualities. That's still enough to gain spellcasting though (yeah, spells are an ex special attack... yipe!) if the new form has them.

JaronK
#4
furious5k
Jul 25, 2008 13:23:17 So, say I turned in to an Ogre Mage, what would I get? Str 21, Dex 10, Con 17 and the things that are listed under "special attacks" and "special qualities" entries?

Shapechange spell says you gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities). You lose your own supernatural abilities. Would that mean I lose my spell-casting? That doesn't sound nice.

What's the difference between extraordinary and supernatural abilities?
#5
shubniggurath
Jul 25, 2008 13:33:29 I am sorry but you don't get any spellcasting. You get the ex special attacks, and that means that what you get needs to respect the 2 following conditions:

1)Be a special attack (in the special attack line)
2)Be extraordinary.... and spellacsting is not ex, is either supernatural (su) or spell-like (sp)

Read this:
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/abilitiesAndConditions.html#supernatural-abilities
#6
furious5k
Jul 25, 2008 13:36:19 But it actually says in the PHB, under Shapechange, that you get both...
#7
shubniggurath
Jul 25, 2008 13:47:58 Shapechange is one thing, Polymorph is another.

You get EX and SU with shapechange, no spellcasting (SP). Check some monster, for xample the pit fiend:
he has a fear aura (SU- you get it), poison (EX- you get it) ans spell like abilities.... you don't, since it isn't either EX or SU
#8
furious5k
Jul 25, 2008 14:04:16 Right, I see where I was getting it wrong. I was looking at it as whether or not you get the stuff in the "special attacks" and "special qualities" entries. Which isn't what it says.

It says you look like the creature you turned into, but it doesn't specify how. Do you become the same size category? Does your movement change? Reach?

I assume I keep my equipment and it's fully functional, assuming the new form can wear it/use it within reason (i.e. has hands, neck, head, torso etc.), correct?
#9
altpersona
Jul 25, 2008 14:05:03 ya, um didnt the wonderfull cutserv say that you got spell casting with shapechange?
#10
cycada
Jul 25, 2008 14:12:43 When you polymorph, all equipment your wearing melds with your form, leaving you a naked ogre mage. :D Save vs. blindness?

Or atleast that's what I've been told, if the errata has changed that, my bad...
#11
shubniggurath
Jul 25, 2008 14:31:07 Shapechange sends back to polymorph that sens back to alter self, and that spell specifies that you get the movement, reach, size and so on

Before listening to CustomerServ's rulings I will ask to my dog, and he will probably make more sense.

You are getting confused with wildshape. Again, it is all based on Alter self and that spell says (emphasis mine):

Alter Self
Transmutation

Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2

Components: V, S

Casting Time: 1 standard action

Range: Personal

Target: You

Duration: 10 min./level (D)
You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.

You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.

You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.

You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.

So no naked Ogre for you, at least if you have magic armor (sinze magic items resize with you), sorry to bust your wet dream :D
#12
jaronk
Jul 25, 2008 14:31:41 First, yes CustServ said it. Second, Spells are a Special Attack (look at every Monster Manual entry). Third, Spells are not (Sp), otherwise they'd never use material components... they're Extraordinary, as evidenced in MMV (before that they were never classified as anything, but all abilities must be Natural, Extraordinary, Spell Like, or Supernatural, and spells are definitely not the last two).

So yeah, spells are Extraordinary Special Attacks, and are thus granted by Polymorph... and not just because of CustServ (which I wouldn't listen to if that's all there was).

JaronK
#13
cycada
Jul 25, 2008 14:41:01 Aww man...hehe....:D

I must have read it wrong then, maybe a different polymorph subschool spell. Either way, Polymorph is definently a powerful ability. It's what I like to call, abusable out of the box.

Besides, Kobolds are more my type. ;)
#14
nunkuruji
Jul 25, 2008 14:47:54 There's always Assume Supernatural Ability in Savage Species
#15
phaedrusxy
Jul 25, 2008 14:53:38
So no naked Ogre for you, at least if you have magic armor (sinze magic items resize with you), sorry to bust your wet dream :D

Magic armor is one of the only types of magic item that don't resize to fit the user. Magic weapons is the other.
Size And Magic Items
When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.

There may be rare exceptions, especially with racial specific items.

Armor and Weapon Sizes
Armor and weapons that are found at random have a 30% chance of being Small (01-30), a 60% chance of being Medium (31-90), and a 10% chance of being any other size (91-100).

For a thread to help you understand how Polymorph works, check this out: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=589497

For a thread on the best forms to use, check this one: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=758751

Links to both of these can be found in the "Handy Links" thread, which is stickied at the top of the forum, by the way.
#16
furious5k
Jul 25, 2008 18:34:37 I'm no expert on D&D rules, but I think what that quote means is simply that a weapon or armor you pick up won't change size to fit you, unlike other magic items. It should still change size when you use polymorph, similar to how it changes size when you cast Righteous Might.

It's just part of the spell, as explained here (from the link you provided):
—Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.

Emphasis on the "any gear".

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 furious5k Jul 25, 2008 13:06:19	Hi, I've been looking through druid books, but I have not had much luck trying to transfer what I've read to "how this would work on my cleric". Could someone help explain how the Polymorph and Shapechange spells could improve my fighting capabilities. I'm rather confused about the whole thing. For example, Ogre Mage is supposed to be really great, but it looks worthless to me. Replacing my Str 20 with 21 and Con 16 with 17 doesn't look helpful. Do I actually add the template? What about monsters that don't have a "as character" section? Is the LA the maximum HD allowance for the template? This is all confusing me greatly, any help understanding how the whole thing works and what forms I should be changing to will be greatly appreciated.
#2 cycada Jul 25, 2008 13:09:45	Well if you've been looking through Druid books, then your most likely seeing threads about Wild Shape, which is vastly different than the Polymorph line. Anyway, most wizards/sorcs/etc who are polymorph focus dump Str and Dex in favor of Con and their casting stat, instead relying on the altered stats given by the Polymorph line. When you polymorph you gain all (ex) abilities of the new form, the appearance of the new form, and the physical stats of the new form. This is an amazing boon, especially at higher levels when you can start turning into things like Horned Devils (the dragon looking devils) that have ~30 str. Lastly, the only restriction of the Polymorph spell is their HD compared to yours. The LA doesn't even matter at all, as you aren't permanently taking on the form, nor are you completely the same. My 2 platinum....
#3 jaronk Jul 25, 2008 13:16:58	Actually I believe you gain the Ex Special Attacks of the new form, not the Ex Special Qualities. That's still enough to gain spellcasting though (yeah, spells are an ex special attack... yipe!) if the new form has them. JaronK
#4 furious5k Jul 25, 2008 13:23:17	So, say I turned in to an Ogre Mage, what would I get? Str 21, Dex 10, Con 17 and the things that are listed under "special attacks" and "special qualities" entries? Shapechange spell says you gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities). You lose your own supernatural abilities. Would that mean I lose my spell-casting? That doesn't sound nice. What's the difference between extraordinary and supernatural abilities?
#5 shubniggurath Jul 25, 2008 13:33:29	I am sorry but you don't get any spellcasting. You get the ex special attacks, and that means that what you get needs to respect the 2 following conditions: 1)Be a special attack (in the special attack line) 2)Be extraordinary.... and spellacsting is not ex, is either supernatural (su) or spell-like (sp) Read this: http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/abilitiesAndConditions.html#supernatural-abilities
#6 furious5k Jul 25, 2008 13:36:19	But it actually says in the PHB, under Shapechange, that you get both...
#7 shubniggurath Jul 25, 2008 13:47:58	Shapechange is one thing, Polymorph is another. You get EX and SU with shapechange, no spellcasting (SP). Check some monster, for xample the pit fiend: he has a fear aura (SU- you get it), poison (EX- you get it) ans spell like abilities.... you don't, since it isn't either EX or SU
#8 furious5k Jul 25, 2008 14:04:16	Right, I see where I was getting it wrong. I was looking at it as whether or not you get the stuff in the "special attacks" and "special qualities" entries. Which isn't what it says. It says you look like the creature you turned into, but it doesn't specify how. Do you become the same size category? Does your movement change? Reach? I assume I keep my equipment and it's fully functional, assuming the new form can wear it/use it within reason (i.e. has hands, neck, head, torso etc.), correct?
#9 altpersona Jul 25, 2008 14:05:03	ya, um didnt the wonderfull cutserv say that you got spell casting with shapechange?
#10 cycada Jul 25, 2008 14:12:43	When you polymorph, all equipment your wearing melds with your form, leaving you a naked ogre mage. :D Save vs. blindness? Or atleast that's what I've been told, if the errata has changed that, my bad...
#11 shubniggurath Jul 25, 2008 14:31:07	Shapechange sends back to polymorph that sens back to alter self, and that spell specifies that you get the movement, reach, size and so on Before listening to CustomerServ's rulings I will ask to my dog, and he will probably make more sense. You are getting confused with wildshape. Again, it is all based on Alter self and that spell says (emphasis mine): Alter Self Transmutation Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level (D) You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself. You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack). You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels. If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components. You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth. You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype. You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check. When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form. So no naked Ogre for you, at least if you have magic armor (sinze magic items resize with you), sorry to bust your wet dream :D
#12 jaronk Jul 25, 2008 14:31:41	First, yes CustServ said it. Second, Spells are a Special Attack (look at every Monster Manual entry). Third, Spells are not (Sp), otherwise they'd never use material components... they're Extraordinary, as evidenced in MMV (before that they were never classified as anything, but all abilities must be Natural, Extraordinary, Spell Like, or Supernatural, and spells are definitely not the last two). So yeah, spells are Extraordinary Special Attacks, and are thus granted by Polymorph... and not just because of CustServ (which I wouldn't listen to if that's all there was). JaronK
#13 cycada Jul 25, 2008 14:41:01	Aww man...hehe....:D I must have read it wrong then, maybe a different polymorph subschool spell. Either way, Polymorph is definently a powerful ability. It's what I like to call, abusable out of the box. Besides, Kobolds are more my type. ;)
#14 nunkuruji Jul 25, 2008 14:47:54	There's always Assume Supernatural Ability in Savage Species
#15 phaedrusxy Jul 25, 2008 14:53:38	So no naked Ogre for you, at least if you have magic armor (sinze magic items resize with you), sorry to bust your wet dream :D Magic armor is one of the only types of magic item that don't resize to fit the user. Magic weapons is the other. Size And Magic Items When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items. There may be rare exceptions, especially with racial specific items. Armor and Weapon Sizes Armor and weapons that are found at random have a 30% chance of being Small (01-30), a 60% chance of being Medium (31-90), and a 10% chance of being any other size (91-100). For a thread to help you understand how Polymorph works, check this out: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=589497 For a thread on the best forms to use, check this one: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=758751 Links to both of these can be found in the "Handy Links" thread, which is stickied at the top of the forum, by the way.
#16 furious5k Jul 25, 2008 18:34:37	I'm no expert on D&D rules, but I think what that quote means is simply that a weapon or armor you pick up won't change size to fit you, unlike other magic items. It should still change size when you use polymorph, similar to how it changes size when you cast Righteous Might. It's just part of the spell, as explained here (from the link you provided): —Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped. Emphasis on the "any gear".