The basic idea is when he enters combat, casts true strike and blade of blood, followed by quick casting shocking grasp into his over-sized greatsword (Monkey Grip) before dealing the blow.
Basically a very effective one trick pony that will kill anything killable in 1 hit at lower levels. Now the DM has ruled that all books are open (FLAWS!!!) so I'm thinking is there any more effective ways that i can improve this build. Gained primarily from Power Attack or an exotic weapon that I do not know of.
Leap Attack[General](CAdv p110)(CAdvErrata)+req:Power Attack,Jump: 8 ranks
You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If your jump covers at least 10’ of horizontal distance and end in a square which threatens your opponent, you deal +100% Power Attack damage.
also try Arcane Strike:
Arcane Strike[General] (CWar p96)(DR310 p58)req:Base Attack Bonus +4,Able to cast Arcane spells
Once per round as a Free Action, you can sacrifice an Arcane spell for the day to receive a bonus on your next melee or ranged attack. You gain a +2 bonus per spell level (up to your Base Attack Bonus) and +1d4 damage per spell level.
:D
Dancing With Shadows (RoE)
Combat Expertise (PHB)
Improved Combat Expertise (CWar)
Improved Bullrush (PHB)
Power Attack (PHB)
Shock Trooper (CWar)
Leap Attack (CAdv)
Got this from http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-669854
I was thinking of this bunch of feats. Considering 1 Barbarian/4 Duskblade. Eventually 2 levels of Fighter for the feats and can someone suggest a PrC? ToB perhaps?
the primary flaw i see is the necessity to power up with several rounds of spells. how do you propose to do this? you might need things like combat casting
i second leap attack.
the primary flaw i see is the necessity to power up with several rounds of spells. how do you propose to do this? you might need things like combat casting
Power Attack+Leap Attack+ Arcane Strike + Spell Channeling +Full attack = Zero Buffing.... straight to inflicting damage
:D
Power Attack+Leap Attack+ Arcane Strike + Spell Channeling +Full attack = Zero Buffing.... straight to inflicting damage
:D
Except that since Arcane Strike requires ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells, which a duskblade doesn't get until level 9, it might be useful for the moment to build towards the good ol' Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper combination and save Arcane Strike for your level 12 feat. Also, realizing that it's not my business, but the -2 to hit you're taking from Monkey Grip in exchange for +1d6 damage due to the larger weapon would probably be better spent on Power Attack anyway since Power Attack would give you a slightly larger expected damage, and you can always turn the -2 to hit off if you want.
Oprick, as a duskblade, he'll already have Combat Casting for free, so there's that taken care of.
Also, I forgot to mention. The combat style of this character can be described as "truck with jet engines".
Well... with True Strike, the -2 probably wouldnt matter that much... so I could have all of that... And a big bad ass weapon to boot
Also, I forgot to mention. The combat style of this character can be described as "truck with jet engines".
Yeah, but how are you getting True Strike? Quickcasting it? You can only do that once or twice per day. If you have to cast it normally, it takes two rounds to set this up, which is absoultely craptastic.
In general, Monkey Grip is inferior to just Power Attacking for more. This has been debated to death on here, and proven mathematically.
An alternative to Shock Trooper and True Strike would be Deep Impact, if you can manage to be a psionic character somehow (race, multiclassing, Wild/Hidden Talent, etc). I don't remember the BAB prereq for Shock Trooper, so I'm not sure if this is attainable earlier or not.
If you make your race half-giant, you would get the powerful build ability (which is like Monkey Grip, but better) and the ability to take Deep Impact, but it costs you a +1 LA.
An alternative to Shock Trooper and True Strike would be Deep Impact, if you can manage to be a psionic character somehow (race, multiclassing, Wild/Hidden Talent, etc). I don't remember the BAB prereq for Shock Trooper, so I'm not sure if this is attainable earlier or not.
I don't think it is. Shock Trooper is available at level 6, unless I'm completely losing my mind.
And shock trooper requires BAB +6.
Also, I just checked out the Arms and Equipment Guide. Mainly, the Fullblade and the Mercurial Greatsword are the two weapons that interest me.
An alternative to Shock Trooper and True Strike would be Deep Impact, if you can manage to be a psionic character somehow (race, multiclassing, Wild/Hidden Talent, etc). I don't remember the BAB prereq for Shock Trooper, so I'm not sure if this is attainable earlier or not.
Question, will expending my psionic focus for Deep Impact still grant me the 2d6 from Psionic Weapon?
Archer
You cast "blade of blood" - Archer hits you with two arrows (1d8+2 each, doing an average 13 dmg)
You cast "true strike" - Archer hits you with two arrows (1d8+2 each, doing an average 13 dmg)
You charge and hit and deal dmg - Opponent is dead, you took 26 points of dmg
You cast "true strike" - Archer hits you with two arrows (1d8+2 each, doing an average 13 dmg)
You charge and hit and deal dmg - Opponent is dead, you took 26 points of dmg
Question, will expending my psionic focus for Deep Impact still grant me the 2d6 from Psionic Weapon?
No. Power Attack + Deep Impact is alot better than the 2d6 from Psionic Weapon anyway, by the time you can even take Deep Impact.
I was debating using a duskblade for big hits like this, and planned to go into Suel Arcanamach later to expand the spells available. That would be good later on, but in the end, I decided to optimize for the lower levels more and go with a psychic warrior. With Psychic Weapon and a deep crystal weapon, you can add +4d6 damage by expending your focus and a couple of power points. Later on, I'll take Deep Impact, Power Attack, and Flyby Attack (he has wings). Here is the thread where I was debating all this stuff.
There are more powerful options than what I was considering there. I was intentionally limiting the power level of the character, per the DMs request.
Even if it is, that doesn't change the fact that you're spending a round casting True Strike + Blade of Blood, and on the second round using Quick Cast for Shocking Grasp. True Strike is the real culprit here - if Blade of Blood is indeed a swift action, you can just cast Blade of Blood as a swift action and use Arcane Channeling to combine Shocking Grasp with a regular attack roll as your standard action. You'd still have the move action left.
True Strike is the real culprit here - if Blade of Blood is indeed a swift action, you can just cast Blade of Blood as a swift action and use Arcane Channeling to combine Shocking Grasp with a regular attack roll as your standard action. You'd still have the move action left.
I think that's right, too. I was just too lazy to look it up, and didn't want to mention it if I wasn't sure. :P
Except that since Arcane Strike requires ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells, which a duskblade doesn't get until level 9, it might be useful for the moment to build towards the good ol' Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper combination and save Arcane Strike for your level 12 feat.
actually he can get 3rd lvl spells @ ECL 5... heres how:
Human
Duskblade 5
Feats:
Versatile Caster(human Bonus)..... combine 2 lower level slots to cast a Higher level spell Slot(i.e. ... he can use two 2nd lvl slots to cast a 3rd lvl spell(he can Heighten a 2nd lvl Spell to 3rd lvl)
1st lvl: Heighten Spell
2nd lvl: Combat Casting
3rd lvl: Power Attack
but he would need to be 6th to get Arcane Channeling
:D
actually he can get 3rd lvl spells @ ECL 5... heres how:
Human
Duskblade 5
Feats:
Versatile Caster(human Bonus)..... combine 2 lower level slots to cast a Higher level spell Slot(i.e. ... he can use two 2nd lvl slots to cast a 3rd lvl spell(he can Heighten a 2nd lvl Spell to 3rd lvl)
1st lvl: Heighten Spell
2nd lvl: Combat Casting
3rd lvl: Power Attack
Oh, sneaky! I hadn't thought of using Versatile Spellcaster to cast a heightened spell and qualify for Arcane Strike. It's one of those things I'd want to clear with my DM before trying, mind you.
Oh, sneaky! I hadn't thought of using Versatile Spellcaster to cast a heightened spell and qualify for Arcane Strike. It's one of those things I'd want to clear with my DM before trying, mind you.
The idea you are imagining does not work.
Explanation: The "Versatile Spellcaster" feat from RotD states that it must be a spell that you know. The "Spells Known" class feature of the Duskblade standard class states that "each time you gain a new class level, you learn one additional spell of any level you can cast, chosen from the duskblade spell list." Emphasis mine.
The reason as to why your idea does not work can be shown with step-by-step deduction via circle logic. e.g. You take the "Versatile Spellcaster" feat at character-level 1 along with a level of the Duskblade standard class. Imagining that you are on to something, you go through the steps of using the "Versatile Spellcaster feat: 1. Have two spells of the same level that you wish to sacrifice for a spell that you know that is one level higher than the spells that you will have sacrificed, 2. Select the spell that is one level higher than those sacrificed to be spontaneously spellcasted as a result, 3. Realize that you do not know any such spell due to the limitations of spells that you know as outlined by the "Spells Known" class feature of the Duskblade standard class, 4. KEEP CRYING, BABIES!
As a result of this exercise, I've realized that there is a potential for spellcasters who prepare spells, as opposed to spontaneously casting them, to be able to spontaneously cast any spell they know. One may argue otherwise citing the "example" in the feat's description, but one may counter-argue that, specifically, the example does not exclude such exploitation.
The main concern with such exploitation, aside from legality, is ascertainment of spontaneous spellcasting. As spontaneous spellcasters have the "Arcane Preparation" feat from Complete Arcane and that other feat, which I can't remember, which grants a preparing-spellcaster the ability to prepare and cast 3 different spells granted by the feat, vice-versa preparing-spellcasters most likely have several options to be able to qualify for the prerequisite of the "Versatile Spellcaster" feat which states simply, "ability to spontaneously cast spells".
Particularly, I'm intrigued by such the exploitation for the sake of qualifying for the Shadowcraft Mage PrC early. The Wizard seems to able to learn spells beyond his ability to cast.
The reason as to why your idea does not work can be shown with step-by-step deduction via circle logic. e.g. You take the "Versatile Spellcaster" feat at character-level 1 along with a level of the Duskblade standard class. Imagining that you are on to something, you go through the steps of using the "Versatile Spellcaster feat: 1. Have two spells of the same level that you wish to sacrifice for a spell that you know that is one level higher than the spells that you will have sacrificed, 2. Select the spell that is one level higher than those sacrificed to be spontaneously spellcasted as a result, 3. Realize that you do not know any such spell due to the limitations of spells that you know as outlined by the "Spells Known" class feature of the Duskblade standard class, 4. KEEP CRYING, BABIES!
Three things:
- Maybe you should try quoting the person who's idea it is to begin with.
- You've conveniently ignored the presence of Heighten Spell. One could argue that a scorching ray heightened to level 3 is in fact a level 3 spell that you know. I'm not saying that the argument is foolproof, and one should clear it with the DM first. In fact, were I the DM, I probably wouldn't let it fly.
- But that said, you're considerably overstating your case by pretending that there's no argument to the contrary.
- You've conveniently ignored the presence of Heighten Spell. One could argue that a scorching ray heightened to level 3 is in fact a level 3 spell that you know. I'm not saying that the argument is foolproof, and one should clear it with the DM first. In fact, were I the DM, I probably wouldn't let it fly.
Well, given that Heighten Spell says:
Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
I'd say it's perfectly legal; you need to be able to cast 3rd level spells, a 2nd level spell heightened to 3rd is for all intents and purposes a 3rd level spell, thus you can cast 3rd level spells and qualify for feats and such.
Given that spontaneous casters are almost invariably a spell level behind prepared casters, my guess is that it was one of the intentions of the feat to help them qualify for things as fast as prepared casters. I'd let this work for prereqs without a problem in my games, but understandably YMMV.
Three things:
- Maybe you should try quoting the person who's idea it is to begin with.
- You've conveniently ignored the presence of Heighten Spell. One could argue that a scorching ray heightened to level 3 is in fact a level 3 spell that you know. I'm not saying that the argument is foolproof, and one should clear it with the DM first. In fact, were I the DM, I probably wouldn't let it fly.
- But that said, you're considerably overstating your case by pretending that there's no argument to the contrary.
1. I thought it was obvious. I am sorry the fact that I didn't mention that the idea is originally carnivore's was not mentioned offended you.
2. I didn't truly understand why Heighten Spell was in the build. I thought, it was just a little bit extra, like adding Easy Metamagic onto a Shadowcraft Mage build. It seems I was wrong.
Re: one could argue: I would say it depends on how the wording of all the elements click, but it's the same with everything else we try to optimize to the littlest point. In general, I think the assumption is that the spell must originally be of 3rd level.
3. I guess it was the way I worded it. I was simply saying why I thought it didn't work through statement and example.
Edit: Re: the post above: I hate posts that end in "YMMV". It's probably as annoying as how often I say "I guess/think/", "Probably", etc.
1. I thought it was obvious. I am sorry the fact that I didn't mention that the idea is originally carnivore's was not mentioned offended you.
No problem, NiteCyper. I'm not offended, mind you - but it makes it look like you're putting me on the spot to defend carnivore's trick, you see.
Eldritch_Lord, the only question I have on whether the trick works is whether a Heightened Scorching Ray counts as a spell known. I mean, the specific point in this case was to gain access to Arcane Strike, which require the ability to cast 3rd level spells, as you say. Great, so we go to Versatile Spellcaster and see that we can use two 2nd level spell slots to cast a 3rd level spell that we know. So now one has to decide whether Heightened Scorching Ray is a spell known or not. And that's where I think the rules could be clearer.
Edit: Re: the post above: I hate posts that end in "YMMV". It's probably as annoying as how often I say "I guess/think/", "Probably", etc.
Well, I don't use it often, but I thought I should make sure to point out this time that it was opinion, rather than fact or RAW. I've found that if people couch their posts in more definite terms, people accuse them of stating opinion as fact and the like. I don't find those kinds of acronyms that annoying....
...but YMMV.
;)
Eldritch_Lord, the only question I have on whether the trick works is whether a Heightened Scorching Ray counts as a spell known. I mean, the specific point in this case was to gain access to Arcane Strike, which require the ability to cast 3rd level spells, as you say. Great, so we go to Versatile Spellcaster and see that we can use two 2nd level spell slots to cast a 3rd level spell that we know. So now one has to decide whether Heightened Scorching Ray is a spell known or not. And that's where I think the rules could be clearer.
The feat doesn't require that you know a 3rd level spell, only that you can cast a 3rd level spell. If a feat required you to be able to prepare and cast 3rd level spells, for instance, it wouldn't work because it isn't a 3rd level spell until you cast it (entirely aside from the fact that a prepared caster couldn't take Versatile Spellcaster).
Because a spontaneous caster can use any slot he has to cast any spell of that level or lower, it doesn't matter whether you know a 3rd level spell or not. If you are a 17th-level spontaneous caster, you can heighten a 2nd-level spell to cast a 3rd level spell, just as you can as a 6th-level caster or a 4th-level caster with Versatile Spellcaster; whether you know spells of 3rd level or higher, or whether they are all heightened lower-level spells, is immaterial.
Because a spontaneous caster can use any slot he has to cast any spell of that level or lower, it doesn't matter whether you know a 3rd level spell or not. If you are a 17th-level spontaneous caster, you can heighten a 2nd-level spell to cast a 3rd level spell, just as you can as a 6th-level caster or a 4th-level caster with Versatile Spellcaster; whether you know spells of 3rd level or higher, or whether they are all heightened lower-level spells, is immaterial.
I'm aware that a spontaneous caster can, you know, cast spontaneously.
But it's not a spontaneous caster question, it's a Versatile Spellcaster question. What Versatile Spellcaster does not do is allow you to combine two 2nd level spell slots and use them to create a 3rd level spell slot; it only allows one to use two 2nd level spell slots to cast a 3rd level spell known (well, two level N spell slots to cast a level N+1 spell known, I suppose). Observe:Benefit: You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.
So on a strict reading, can you, for reasons of your own, burn two 2nd level spell slots and, via Versatile Spellcaster, use them to cast a 2nd level spell? No - you can only use them to cast a 3rd level spell that you know.
Does Versatile Spellcaster let you cast a Silenced 2nd level spell by using two 2nd level slots? A Heightened 2nd level spell? Are we just going to ignore the text about casting "a spell you know that is one level higher," or are we going to claim that a Heightened Scorching Ray is a spell you know that is one level higher?
It is, of course, a quibble and not the kind of thing I enjoy debating or anything, so I'm bowing out at this point. Just trying to clarify the possible objection to make it clear that it has nothing to do with spontaneous casters per se.
Observe:
Aaah, I see. I wasn't sure exactly what you were referring to. In that case....
Do you, as a 4th level sorcerer, know the spell scorching ray? Assuming you chose it when leveling up, yes (and we will, for the sake of argument, assume so). You can use items containing the spell, you can cast it with your 2nd level spell slots, and you can do other stuff with the spell because you know it.
Do you know the spell heightened scorching ray? Maybe. Can you use items holding a heightened scorching ray? Yes. Can you cast it with a 3rd level slot (minus Versatile Spellcaster, the point of contention)? Yes. Can you do other 3rd-level-spell stuff with it? Yes. So would this apply to Versatile Spellcaster?
Another scenario: Can a 20th level sorcerer cast a heightened scorching ray with Versatile Spellcaster and 2 2nd-level slots? Well, heightened scorching ray isn't a spell, is it? So one might easily say no to that. Yet this is precisely the purpose of Versatile Spellcaster--turn 2 level X slots into a level X+1 slot and use it just like any other X+1 slot--and most DMs would never say he couldn't do that. What lets the 20th level sorcerer do it that the 4th-level sorcerer doesn't have? Yes, a normal 4th-level sorcerer can't cast spells of 3rd level yet...but then, a normal 4th-level sorcerer doesn't have Versatile Spellcaster.
It is, of course, a quibble and not the kind of thing I enjoy debating or anything, so I'm bowing out at this point. Just trying to clarify the possible objection to make it clear that it has nothing to do with spontaneous casters per se.
It is indeed a matter of semantics, and if we have to agree to disagree, so be it. Thank you for the interesting discussion.