Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 SwordDisciple Apr 22, 2009 20:15:42	And by them... I mean those disgusting Users of Magic and those pathetic surface elves... I will slay them all, each and every one.. This is a build I have been tossing around in my head for a little while. It's relatively simple and does not have alot of PrC's kicking around. Hope it is useful to some-one and any further ideas are more than welcome. Uses This was simply an idea and can be adapted for any kind of play (and it does play fairly well). It's probably good as a BBEG or as a bit of fun for messing with Spellcasters.
#2 Grumman Apr 22, 2009 20:28:44	Any suggestions/comments? Would swapping Drow for Spellwarped (MM3) Lesser Drow (PGtF) work? The extra +1 LA would make it more expensive to buy off, but still doable by ECL 20. In exchange you're immune to spells that target humanoids, +4 STR, +2 DEX, +4 CON, +2 INT, -2 CHA, and when your SR blocks a spell you get more powerful.
#3 jseah Apr 22, 2009 20:48:41	Level 20 going anti-caster? Freedom of Movement Ring is a must. Or a Solid Fog = screwed. Non-Detection Ring (or was it an amulet) is recommended so you don't get pinged by a wizard using Contact Other Plane. Might want to bump up the caster level. Or someway to get a permanent mindblank on you. If you can fit in Void Incarnate I saw referenced from the Iron Siege... Although I'm not sure if that's an epic class =P Need higher SR I guess. Can you find a way to get it? Although there's just too many no save, no SR spells. Might want to have epic level escape artist checks, so you can get through a Force Cage if needed. Nasty spell that one. Depending on the GM, a Crystal Anchor of Travel might punish teleportation. (psychoportation transparency with conjuration teleport) As a last resort, use that AMF item (can't recall name). Or that Dust of Negation that I saw referenced in the physics thread. (pg7) Robe of Eyes! How can I forget? Need a way to detect mind-blanked and invisible wizards. (See Invis or True Seeing won't work as they can't be detected by divinations, robe of eyes, although a divination item doesn't state that it mimics any spell) Buy a contingent spell, need to beat them at their own game. A few single-use items to prevent teleport would be nice.
#4 SwordDisciple Apr 22, 2009 21:25:16	Would swapping Drow for Spellwarped (MM3) Lesser Drow (PGtF) work? The extra +1 LA would make it more expensive to buy off, but still doable by ECL 20. In exchange you're immune to spells that target humanoids, +4 STR, +2 DEX, +4 CON, +2 INT, -2 CHA, and when your SR blocks a spell you get more powerful. Hmm.. That would indeed make for a nastier Drow.. I like it, thank you - I'll look into it when I can get to my books a bit later Level 20 going anti-caster? Freedom of Movement Ring is a must. Or a Solid Fog = screwed. Non-Detection Ring (or was it an amulet) is recommended so you don't get pinged by a wizard using Contact Other Plane. Might want to bump up the caster level. Or someway to get a permanent mindblank on you. If you can fit in Void Incarnate I saw referenced from the Iron Siege... Although I'm not sure if that's an epic class =P Need higher SR I guess. Can you find a way to get it? Although there's just too many no save, no SR spells. Might want to have epic level escape artist checks, so you can get through a Force Cage if needed. Nasty spell that one. Depending on the GM, a Crystal Anchor of Travel might punish teleportation. (psychoportation transparency with conjuration teleport) As a last resort, use that AMF item (can't recall name). Or that Dust of Negation that I saw referenced in the physics thread. (pg7) Robe of Eyes! How can I forget? Need a way to detect mind-blanked and invisible wizards. (See Invis or True Seeing won't work as they can't be detected by divinations, robe of eyes, although a divination item doesn't state that it mimics any spell) Buy a contingent spell, need to beat them at their own game. A few single-use items to prevent teleport would be nice. All the magic items you listed would be a great ideas I didn't add in Magic Items so may make a list of these which would benefit the build. And other than the build requirements, skills are fairly free too. I'll look into these and any other suggestions when I can get to my books. Occult Slayer has the Nondetection Cloak ability and is immune to mind affecting spells so no problems there Void Incarnate? Will look into it, thanks No Save, No Spell Resistance spells like Ord of Acid/Force etc? You use the Occult Slayer Reflection to bounce it back on the Mage who cast it Auravision (ability to see magical auras as per detect magic) and Pierce Magical Concealment Feat deals with invisible wizards The Feat specifically states: ..allows you to disregard the miss chance granted by spells or spell-like abilities such as darkness, blur, invisibility, obscuring mist, ghost form, and spells when used to create concealment effects... therefore you see the invisible Wizards Aura, ignore the concealment effect and thus you ignore the invisibility spell Great ideas though :D thank you!
#5 Grumman Apr 22, 2009 21:47:52	While I think of it, there's a shirt in DMG2 that gives you +5 to your existing Spell Resistance. That would boost it from SR31 to SR36.
#6 dr_rocktopus Apr 22, 2009 21:50:02	It actually doesn't. It negates the miss chance, but not the total concealment, given my understanding.
#7 SwordDisciple Apr 22, 2009 22:08:24	Haha i thought that might cause debate. Using your Auravision (which by my understanding is constantly "on") you detect magical auras. An invisible mage not only would give off the Invisibility Aura (faint for Invisibility spell), but also on any magical items he/she is carrying - the Occult Slayer "sees" these. So he would know there is something there (even if he does not know it is a Wizard). Pierce Magical Concealment is worded thusly: allows you to disregard the miss chance granted by spells (examples), and also spells used to create concealment effects (example of Permanant Image). Therefore the question is: Does Invisibility create a concealment effect? I believe so as the primary example of a spell granting total concealment in the PHB is Invisibility. Thus you disregard the concealment effect.. Or my logic (and thus the wording of the two books) is wrong?
#8 Kerrus Apr 23, 2009 1:35:38	While something with total invisibility might be treated as having total concealment, it's not an end up thing. Total Concealment != invisibility, so things that negate total concealment != negate invisibility. At least in the reading of the words I'm most familiar with. The spell lets you disregard a concealment effect- but invisibility isn't a concealment effect unless directly stated. The concealment is secondary to the invisibility. You have concealment because you're invisible- you're not invisible because you have concealment.
#9 jseah Apr 23, 2009 2:01:48	Interesting there, and I'm inclined to argue in favour of invisibility. What's the wording on the Non-detection cloak ability? Does it prevent divinations? eg. Divination, Contact Other Plane, and such 'strategic' spells. By No Save No SR spells, I didn't mean the Orbs. I meant, SM, Gate, PAO (especially when used on SMs!) and Teleport. Also, Forcecage, Timestop, Solid Fog (Incendiary Cloud) and Transmute Rock to Mud. Which is why I said Freedom of Movement is an absolute must. It is so critical that it's not funny if you don't have it. Don't want to die to level 5 spell. Still doesn't solve problems with Timestop -> Forcecage -> Summon -> Teleport. Or a Disjunction killing your ring followed by Solid Fog screwing you over. And the fact that surprising level 20 casters is nigh impossible. Nice work though, I'd say this would easily steamroll most casters I'm seeing out there (because most aren't played well). Although you might have problems with the God build, the anti-anti-caster (obviously) and the summoner. Oh, add ghost touch to your weapon and get a way to planeshift. Or Etherealness will be so nasty...
#10 SwordDisciple Apr 23, 2009 2:53:16	Interesting there, and I'm inclined to argue in favour of invisibility. What's the wording on the Non-detection cloak ability? Does it prevent divinations? eg. Divination, Contact Other Plane, and such 'strategic' spells. By No Save No SR spells, I didn't mean the Orbs. I meant, SM, Gate, PAO (especially when used on SMs!) and Teleport. Also, Forcecage, Timestop, Solid Fog (Incendiary Cloud) and Transmute Rock to Mud. Which is why I said Freedom of Movement is an absolute must. It is so critical that it's not funny if you don't have it. Don't want to die to level 5 spell. Still doesn't solve problems with Timestop -> Forcecage -> Summon -> Teleport. Or a Disjunction killing your ring followed by Solid Fog screwing you over. And the fact that surprising level 20 casters is nigh impossible. Nice work though, I'd say this would easily steamroll most casters I'm seeing out there (because most aren't played well). Although you might have problems with the God build, the anti-anti-caster (obviously) and the summoner. Oh, add ghost touch to your weapon and get a way to planeshift. Or Etherealness will be so nasty... Heres the wording Nondetection Cloak (Su): Upon reaching 4th level, an occult slayer (and any gear she wears or carries) becomes more difficult to locate through divinations such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and other detection spells. The occult slayer gains magical protection from divinations equivalent to a nondetection spell (caster level equals the character’s occult slayer level), except that it affects only the occult slayer and her possessions. I totally agree with the Freedom of Movement. Other things like Gate would be alot harder to combat and hence idea's are great thank you! While something with total invisibility might be treated as having total concealment, it's not an end up thing. Total Concealment != invisibility, so things that negate total concealment != negate invisibility. At least in the reading of the words I'm most familiar with. The spell lets you disregard a concealment effect- but invisibility isn't a concealment effect unless directly stated. The concealment is secondary to the invisibility. You have concealment because you're invisible- you're not invisible because you have concealment. Hmm.. Agree'd: You have concealment because you're invisible - you're not invisible because you have concealment. But seeing the Aura of Invisibility on the Caster from the Invisibility spell (and you would see the Aura with Auravision) then would that not mean you know there is magical concealment in effect and allow you to disregard it? I am not saying I'm right, but it seems a bit of a gray area..
#11 Kerrus Apr 23, 2009 3:02:35	I think if I were DMing that game, I'd houserule that you'd need to be close to the invisible target to negate the miss chance, and you'd need to concentrate. It's a very grey area, yes.
#12 dr_rocktopus Apr 23, 2009 4:02:17	Planar Touchstone(Breaching Obelisk) or expect to die a lot.
#13 SwordDisciple Apr 23, 2009 4:40:26	Planar Touchstone(Breaching Obelisk) or expect to die a lot. How will that help?
#14 jseah Apr 23, 2009 6:02:04	It has a traveling gate function that isn't subject to dimensional lock. It has a time-stop like function as well. I forgot about that. Yes, that's a must too. Unless there's an unspoken agreement in the universe not to use Timestop. You know, you can use your own Gate(s) to counter Gate. I heard Candle of Invocation is a prime favourite. Although that's a bit... cheesy. And how could I forget Dust of Sneezing and Choking?! Ahahaha... Eat Stun-no-save! http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#dustofSneezingandChoking I saw a caster vs anti-caster thread on another forum. Perhaps you might like to ask them there? They had a rather long and interesting discussion about the iron hat trick for wizards to avoid AMF. >.>
#15 dumah87 Apr 23, 2009 6:45:29	you can't bounce back Orb of x spells, they are not "target" spell, they are ray spell, that can't be deflected... and a metamagic specialist spellcaster (who said incantatrix??? ) could easily destroy you.
#16 jseah Apr 23, 2009 6:47:18	All that requires is a non-ref, low level (or not), area nuke. Plus Assay Resistance. We all know that even a straight caster is at the advantage. Just trying to make it as difficult as possible for casters you know? ***************************************** There's a problem with the non-detection cloak ability. It uses Occult Slayer level, which is 5. Any level 20 caster can easily make that caster check to pierce it. You still need that Mind Blank.
#17 dumah87 Apr 23, 2009 6:56:03	instead of kinslayer, isn't better the classic Hexblade, paladin of x, blackguard???
#18 jseah Apr 23, 2009 7:38:19	*thwacks forehead with finger* I read through it again. You need flight speed! Boots will just get dispelled. Unless I missed it somewhere. Perhaps you should take the Winged Template and buy it off?
#19 jameswilliamogle Apr 23, 2009 10:11:03	I like Karsite Barbarian 2 / Binder 12 / KoSS 5 / Bloodline 1 for mage killing builds (worked one out over on the BG boards; nothing we've found can kill the ultra-paranoid Wizard, yet, though). Mageslayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, Instantaneous Rage, Intimidating Rage, Imperious Command, Extra Rage, Weapon Focus... BAB +16, EBL 20, tons of potential immunities, SR, healing when SR works, dispelling touches...
#20 dr_rocktopus Apr 23, 2009 13:54:16	I can kill the paranoid wizard. With a paranoid wizard. And hacks. So I guess probably, meaningfully impossible.
#21 SwordDisciple Apr 23, 2009 16:14:58	Well this was designed as an Alternate Build.. It's not perfect and wont be a major threat to a well designed spellcaster but hey, some-one might like it and I think it would give a few spellcasters a shock (well at least those not played by you CO wizards) ;) I'm guessing you're talking about Brilliant...? Will take a peak over there.. The Occult Slayer is immune to mind affecting spells.. Why does he need mind blank? Flight speed - will look into a flying template. And why cant you bounce an Orb of X spell? It isn't a ray, it's a targeted orb, hence the ranged touch attack to hit.. Hmm.. Need some way of counterspelling.. Thanks for all the suggestions guys, all helps and I'll review all of these suggestions when I get the chance :D
#22 jseah Apr 23, 2009 16:23:31	I know, Spellblades! vs Dispel Magic and G. Dispel Magic Then your boots... won't... hmm, disjunction... damn. ******************************* Mind Blank is for immunity to Divination. Not a non-detection effect, which is a 15+ occult slayer level caster check to beat. Since your occult slayer level is 5, that's a DC 20 caster check. You're up against level 20 casters... >.>
#23 SwordDisciple Apr 23, 2009 16:41:35	I know, Spellblades! vs Dispel Magic and G. Dispel Magic Then your boots... won't... hmm, disjunction... damn. ******************************* Mind Blank is for immunity to Divination. Not a non-detection effect, which is a 15+ occult slayer level caster check to beat. Since your occult slayer level is 5, that's a DC 20 caster check. You're up against level 20 casters... >.> LOL disjunction is... cool when you have it huh.. Characters of mine are predominantly spellcasters so it's hard to sit on the other side of the fence. Flight was something I was thinking about. I think if he were hunting a Wizard he wouldn't be in an area where they could use flight but some way to stop them Teleporting/Dimension Door-ing away would be ideal. Nondetection Cloak is Occult Slayer level +5 but still pretty easy. Hmm. I remember seeing something that gave you something similar to Mindblank.. REALLY need something that allows him to ignore more spell effects. Half-Golem might help..?
#24 dr_rocktopus Apr 23, 2009 17:13:33	Half-golem dragon-born. It's how I built out King Vertigo. He can't kill a caster unsupported, but if he brings friends, you're probably blown.
#25 SwordDisciple Apr 23, 2009 17:39:15	King Vertigo? Got a link Doc?
#26 dr_rocktopus Apr 23, 2009 17:41:28	I... Sure. Not the best thing ever, but advance him and add some of the anti-mage gear and you're probably set enough against Joe Caster or Joanna Gish. Making his mount fully ethereal is a good bet too.
#27 jameswilliamogle Apr 23, 2009 18:40:43	I remember seeing something that gave you something similar to Mindblank.. REALLY need something that allows him to ignore more spell effects. Half-Golem might help..? Weapons of Legacy have an item that grants Mindblank. Several Vestiges grant Mindblank. A handful of templates grant it. Undead for status effect and [mind] immunity, Karsite for SR (or Phrenic if magic-psionic transparency, I think PR = SR in that case, not sure), hamburger helper for hunger immunity, an item for Dimensional Lock...
#28 SwordDisciple Apr 23, 2009 18:58:41	Would a Third Eye - Conceal work? MiC Pg 141
#29 arz Apr 24, 2009 11:53:56	I really like your hate ...but I found if you wanna mess with spell casters it helps to toss a bit back at them. Found the quorbred template from SoS when I joined an all template game. Try something like this: Spellthief3/Warlock2/ScarEnforcer10/TopazGuardian5 Look up the most excellent Glaivelock Guide for feats. The template is +2 and cancels divinations, has pr, disrupts spellcasters, and adds some psychic feedback.