Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 hunanoid Nov 30, 2010 22:23:19	So here's the basic rundown of my situation. Currently I'm playing in a game where we (the PCs) have two sets of characters, each in a different realm. The campaign setting is where these two sets of characters are "linked" to each other in some way. My "Day Game" character is a Cleric, no optimization help needed there : D. The class that I'm really struggling to find a niche or even useful most of the time is my "night character." Please, for the love of the Gods, help me optimize this poor, poor class. All books are allowed except for ones using alternative settings (i.e. Eberron, Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms). So far on these characters we have progressed to level 4. Nalia Draven, Half Elven White Witch Lv. 4 Ability Scores, Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 19, Cha 13 Feats: Silent Spell, Brew Potion White Witch BAB: As Wizard, but with an extra repitition of +6/+1, so that 20th level has BAB of +9/+4 Spells Per Day: As Cleric table, but without Domain Spells. HD: d6 Class Skills: Craft, Concentration, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (Nature), Profession, Spellcraft Skill Points Per Level: 4+INT Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Club, Dagger, Quarterstaff, Dart, Light Crossbow, Hand Crossbow. Light and Medium Armor but cannot wear metal armor. Not proficient with shields. Spells: Witches prepare and cast like clerics, except that instead of spontaneous healing or wounding, they gain Spell Select at first level, which allows them to substitute a divine spell for any spell from the schools of Divination, Enchantment, Illusion, or Necromancy from the Wizard/sorc spell list.  Summon Familiar(Level 2): Exactly like a Sorcerer, but gained at 2nd level. Power of 13 (Level 3): When a full coven of witches is gathered, they can combine and cast group spells. It can add the following: Damage Spells: Add 2 additional dice of the appropriate damage type to the spell, even if it exceed the maximum. Area Effect Spells: Double the area effect of a spell. Range Spells: Double the range of a spell. Spell Durations: Double the duration of a spell. if the spell is permanent add +5 to the DC to dispel. Spell Resistance: Any spell that allows spell resistance to apply gives the caster +5 to their roll to penetrate. To use Power of 13, all withces must be of the appropriate level to cast the spell and have it prepared. Spells cast this way take a full round to cast. Glamour (Level 4): Glamour affects the following skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform. +1 Cha bonus on all skills listed above, +2 against those naturally attracted to the sex of the character. Automatically dispelled by dispel magic. Minor Curse 1/Day (Level 6): This is a curse that is not really harmful to the victim but more of an annoyance. Examples include fleas plague the victim, permanent itch, etc. The victim must understand the Witch with both appropriate INT and language. Atheme (Level 8): The Atheme adds 1 CL to any spell of 3rd level or lower cast by the Witch for determining DC, damage, range, and duration. Also, one 0 level and one 1st level spell can be stored in the Atheme and they can be cast on the fly as a free action. Divine (Level 10): This allows the Witch to cast any divination spell she is capable of casting once per day for free. Powerful Glamour (Level 11): As Glamour, but +2 to rolls and +3 with attracted persons. May only be dispelled by a targeted Dispel Magic, not by and area of effect one. Potent Curse 1/day (Level 13): These curses are far nastier and can have long term effects. Examples include terrible boils that inflict -2 Cha on the target for one year, or clubfott, reducing movement. A potent curse cannot be imminently life threatening, but can be quite terrible. Maximum duration is one year. Masterful Atheme (Level 15): It is the same as the Atheme, but increases CL by 1 for all spells of 5th level and lower. It can also store a 2nd level spell on top of the 1st and 0th level spells to be cast as free actions. True Glamour (Level 16): As glamour, but +3 to those skills and +3 to the attracted persons. Can only be dispelled by a 15th level or higher caster with a targeted dispel magic. Witch Spells 0- Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Cure Minor Wounds, Detect Poison, Guidance, Purify Food or Drink, Know Direction. 1- Bane, Cause Fear, Comprehend Languages, Deathwatch, Divine Favor, Cure Light Wounds, Goodberries, Charm Person, Detect Secret Doors, Hypnotism, Message, Sleep, Summon Monster I, Inflict Light Wounds, Remove Fear, Obscuring Mist, Sacntuary.   2- Aid, Animal Messenger, Augury, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Cure Moderate, Delay Poison, Faerie Fire, Hold Person, Find Traps, Silence, Speak With Animals, Summon Monster II, Suggestion, Whispering Wind. 3- Bestow Curse, Blindness/Deafness, Contagion, Cure Serious, Inflict Serious, Dispel Magic, Magic Circle against X, Obscure Object, Divination, Prayer, Speak With Dead, Invisibility, Summon Monster III, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Confusion. 4- Water Walk, Water Breathing, Cure Critical, Death Ward, Inflict Critical, Imbue with Spell Ability, Lesser Planar Ally, Neutralize Poison, Poison, Repel Vermin, Restoration, Sending, Spell Immunity, Summon Monster IV Tongues, Rusting Grasp, Scrying, Flame Strike. 5- Atonement, Break Enchantment, Commune, Healing Circle (?), Raise Dead, Summon Monster V, True Seeing, Wall of Thorns (?), Hallow, Barkskin, Insect Plague. 6- Banishment, Blade Barrier, Etherealness, Forbiddance, Geas/Quest, Greater Dispelling, Harm, Heal, Summon Monster VI, Find Path, Ironwood. 7- Changestaff, Greater Scrying, Wind Walk, Destruction, Restoration, Resurrection, Regeneration, Summon Monster VII. 8- Antimagic Shield, Discern Location, Firestorm, Greater Planar Ally, Holy Aura, Mass Heal, Animal Shapes, Summon Monster VIII Word of Recall 9- Shapechange, Astral Projection, Soul Bind, Summon Monster IX, Storm of Vengeance, Whirlwind, Earthquake. Any and all insight on how to effectively use this class to not suck, build examples, and general advice is welcome here. I have considered taking Thaumaturgist levels, but I'm not too sure about how well this class can be optimized into a summoner. I am desperate : (
#2 Krusk Dec 01, 2010 9:41:52	It looks like a cleric who gave up domains, and some BAB, but otherwise gained nothing of note. You are going to play this class like a save or die wizard. Pump your DCs, and cast the following spells Level 1= cause fear, sleep, and obscuring mist. Level 2 = Hold Person Level 3 = Blind/deaf, Dispel Magic, Invisibility Level 4 = Spell Immunity, and lesser planar ally. (Or metamagiced lower level spells) Level 5 = True Seeing, Barkskin, and maybe wall of thorns. Really more metamagic. Level 6 = Greater Dispel, Maybe blade barrier. Again, more metamagic. Level 7 = Metamagic. Level 8 = Greater Planar Ally. (I love that you don't get normal planar ally). Metamagic. Level 9 = Shapechange, Astral Projection. (And your other spells at this level aren't godawful, so if you like one go ahead and throw it out)   At level 1, you hold a crossbow and wear the heaviest armor you can. You are a crappy archer. If someone comes near you, blast with cause fear. Do this until you hit level 3ish spells. Then you should have enough to throw a spell a round for the most part. Stand far in the back, and throw these out. You really have a crappy list, so prepare lots of the few good spells. It looks like most of your feats will be metamagic, things like quicken. In the end you are going to be casting blindness deafness all day long and hoping it works well. Spell select. Can you do this once at first level, as many times as you want at first level, as many times as you want anytime, once per level? How often? You could use this to gain some good spells. You probably ought to prestige class into something with turn undead, so you can make use of divine metamagic, also. The improved familiar feat could get you an imp, which fits thematically, and could be useful.
#3 hunanoid Dec 01, 2010 12:59:55	Spell select. Can you do this once at first level, as many times as you want at first level, as many times as you want anytime, once per level? How often? You could use this to gain some good spells. Spell Select works exactly like a Cleric's Spontaneity except that it grabs spells from Divination, Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy.    You probably ought to prestige class into something with turn undead, so you can make use of divine metamagic, also. I had planned on getting out of this class and into Prestige classes as soon as possible, I was considering a 1 level dip at 6th into Paragnostic Apostle for Lore and a Knowledge is Power ability, and then moving into the Thaumaturgist from 7th-11th to get the Planar Cohort and the bonuses to the Planar Ally Spells and Augment Summoning. Does that sound like a bad idea? Also, I'm not sure which prestige classes that offer Turn Undead this Class can actually meet the prereqs for, as the only one I found would be the Sacred Exorcist, which requires either Dismissal or Dispel Evil, and this class offers neither. Cleric dipping was an idea, but I decided that would cripple me from a spellcasting perspective, so I'm pretty lost as to what I should take post Thaumaturgist, if I go that route.
#4 Krusk Dec 01, 2010 20:28:30	Wait, you can spontaneously cast any wiz necromancy/enchantment/illusin/divination spell? Thats actually crazy good, and you ought to make heavy use of it. Again, the class itself sucks, so prestige classes can only help.
#5 hunanoid Dec 01, 2010 21:00:29	Oh yeah, I definitely make heavy use of it, but like you said yourself the class itself is horrid. I honestly can't think of what to take after level 10 if I go through with the Witch 4/ Paragnostic Apostle 1/ Thaumaturgist 5. Perhaps the last 4 levels of Paragnostic Apostle? That still leaves me with 6 levels I would rather not take in the Witch base class. Is there anything you would suggest?
#6 kaboom_the_gnome Dec 02, 2010 7:58:20	i advise taking a look at the dragon shaman from PHb2. even one lvl makes you the best healer if you take vigor as one of your starting auras. (every ally within 30 feet with less than half health gains fast healing equal to your aura rank, which is 1 at 1st lvl). also, there is another aura that grants DR/- equal to aura rank. another lakes it so when you or an ally is struck in melee with a nonreach weapon, the attacker takes 2 points of energy damage per (you guessed it,) point of aura bonus. the type is the same type as the breath weapon the dragon shaman's totem dragon uses. this class works best with allies nearby, such as fighters, who gain the most benefit from fast healing and damage reduction.  NOTE: i only gave the 3 auras i reccomend. there are 7 auras total. you start knowing 3, and gain more as you lvl up. you can only have 1 aura active at a time, but changing auras is a swift action.
#7 waazraath Dec 02, 2010 12:03:09	I honestly don't see anything horrid about this class... you're a full caster! Besides that, medium armor, decent number of skills... really looks fine to me, I can't find the suck. If you want to do weird stuff, take a level of binder (incl. improved binding feat) from Tome of Magic and then take 10 levels of anima mage, full casting and great metamagic... or take a level in any prestige class that gives turn undead as Krusk suggested, and use the usual DMM-persist tricks. Or advance in a more martial orientated class like knight of the raven, ruby knight vindicator or fist of raziel for almost full casting and full BaB. Plenty of options, depending on what you want to do. edit: I'd definitely advice against leaving this class for a non-caster class... casting will only get better as you increase in levels
#8 hunanoid Dec 02, 2010 13:15:39	The suck that I have with it is that the class skills are (mostly) trash, save for Spell Select. The other aspect that has been crazy has been the really crippled spell list, while it is supplemented by Spell Select, as rule I don't want to be a Divine caster slinging out wizard spells 80% of the time. I like the Anima Mage idea, however, this class is a divine caster, and Anima Mage requires arcane caster levels. Knight of the Raven is interesting if I can get my DM to allow it. Tome of Battle is out I believe, so Ruby Knight looks like an inviable option, however cool it would be. I hadn't really thought of making this thing a combat oriented PC, but now that I think about it, with the summon monster spells and etc. I could use it for flanking and whatnot...  Well, that's one idea anyway. Here's one build I was thinking about for a more casting oriented character I was thinking of doing, any suggestions? (For Divine Oracle, I got my DM to waive Skill Focus (Knowledge Religion) if I take it as a prestige) I don't remember the requirements for the Knight of the Raven, but I'm hoping there isn't a BAB requirement, as that is a scarce resource on this character, but that would be an interesting martial caster build. Once I go and look up the Knight of the Raven I may post a second build based on that. Fist of Raziel would probably come afterwards, as the +6 BAB requirement would mean I couldn't get in with the Witch until 12th level, taking my 13th in Fist. White Witch 5/ Divine Oracle 2/ Thaumaturgist 5/Divine Oracle 8 Cool things about the build: Oracle Domain Uncanny and Improved Uncanny Dodge Prescient Sense (Evasion, but better) Immunity to Surprise Planar Cohort (Most likely a Ghaele w/ Class levels) Contingent Conjuration
#9 waazraath Dec 02, 2010 13:49:41	You can take anima mage as a divine caster, see under 'adaption'; as for knigh of the raven, don't know the prereqs by heart but as I remember they are quite easy.
#10 Krusk Dec 02, 2010 15:11:08	The class sucks for the same reason the wizard class sucks. You want as few levels of the actual class as possible, thankfully they created prestige classes that advance the only good feature. Do you have a focus, or area you would like to take the character? Devoted to healing, good vs undead, can channel turn undeads for something useful? It seems like you ought to just do whatever you do for a typical cleric build. (Prestige class wise)
#11 waazraath Dec 02, 2010 17:08:31	Well, seems you use a different definition from 'suck' then I do... yes, of course, it's annoying not to get good class abilities at every level or so... but wizards, clerics, druids etc. already get the most powerfull one in the game anyway, that does scale with level: spellcasting. And yes, of course I use prestige classes when I play them, cause they make them even stronger, but do they 'suck' without? Hell no. A monk sucks (powerwise). A cleric or wizard doesn't, not even when stripped of all class abilities minus spellcasting.
#12 hunanoid Dec 02, 2010 17:21:55	That's where I'm having the trouble, Krusk. In a way, on these "night characters", I'm the only one with a spell list decent enough to be a healer type. However, the class isn't supportive enough of the healing feature to actually allow me to play that role. I don't want to run around with all of my slots prepared as Cure X Wounds, I would actually like to have some versatile choice with some of the not terrible Witch spells. I could technically run around with only cures prepared and just spell select my way through anything, but there are a couple of spells that I'm fond of that come from this base class. I believe I'm going to pick up the Spontaneous Healer feat from CD, so that I can better fill the role. Being able to spontaneously heal AND use Div, Ench, Necro, and Illu would be pretty sick. Double that with a build such as this one and I think I could essentially make a build that while isn't as great as an optimized Cleric, may be able to play the same way. Tell me what you think of this one: White Witch 6/Fighter 1/Knight of the Raven 8/ Fist of Raziel 5 Feats:  1- Silent Spell 3- Brew Potion 6- Spontaneous Healer 7- Power Attack 9- Servant of the Heavens 12- Extend Spell 15- Persistent Spell 18- DMM Persist A problem I see with this build potentially is that I need to find around 6 points of STR boost and 5 points of CHA boost to make the build fully functional, unless I find a way to fit Weapon Finesse in there somehow, perhaps a 2nd level of Fighter and going KotR 7 instead. That wouldn't help my damage but it would ensure that I would hit decently and with the right spells cast I could ensure that my opponents are debuffed and that I was buffed, but still looking for input. Thanks a ton for responding guys.
#13 hunanoid Dec 03, 2010 9:02:57	Well, seems you use a different definition from 'suck' then I do... yes, of course, it's annoying not to get good class abilities at every level or so... but wizards, clerics, druids etc. already get the most powerfull one in the game anyway, that does scale with level: spellcasting. And yes, of course I use prestige classes when I play them, cause they make them even stronger, but do they 'suck' without? Hell no. A monk sucks (powerwise). A cleric or wizard doesn't, not even when stripped of all class abilities minus spellcasting. I agree, full spellcasting is an amazing ability by itself, when it is the hands of the Wizard, the Druid, and the Cleric. However, full spellcasting with a spell list such as the one this class offers is sub par, and the only thing that could possibly redeem it is the Spell Select option, which until now I have unfortuantely glazed over. When you have a weak spell list, you hope that the class abilities will compensate you in some way for that, and this class just simply fails to do that. Unless you want to be extremely flavorful, there is no reason to take this class, play a Cleric instead, and if you would like to play a Witch, there is a Witch core class on the Classes forum that is much better, and in my opinion, true to what witches are.
#14 Krusk Dec 03, 2010 10:37:56	I believe I'm going to pick up the Spontaneous Healer feat from CD, so that I can better fill the role. Being able to spontaneously heal AND use Div, Ench, Necro, and Illu would be pretty sick. I was about to suggest that. You could also consider that healing in 3.x isn't really a needed role. Specifically in combat. Sure it can be handy, but it isn't mandatory. http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1121.0 Could have some helpful advice. Nice, I knew the author was special, and he appears to have deleted it. Reposted here http://web.archive.org/web/20080117015939/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=900334 White Witch 6/Fighter 1/Knight of the Raven 8/ Fist of Raziel 5 A problem I see with this build potentially is that I need to find around 6 points of STR boost and 5 points of CHA boost to make the build fully functional, unless I find a way to fit Weapon Finesse in there somehow, perhaps a 2nd level of Fighter and going KotR 7 instead.   Thats what I would do, unless you can guarantee +stat items somehow? Do you guys have an item crafter? Anywa, if you don't, snag another level of fighter for weapon finesse.  Looking over raven knight in general, are you set on the class? Overall it seems sort of lackluster. I think witch 6/fighter 1/Raven 1/Fist of Raziel 9/Raven 3 might work better for you. Feats- 1- Servant of Heavens  3- Power Attack 6- Spontaneous Healer 9- Weapon Finesse 12- Silent Spell 15- Persist Spell 18- DMM Persist Get your melee feats out of the way first, while you don't have many higher level spell slots to metamagic. Then take the metamagic when you can use it.
#15 hunanoid Dec 03, 2010 11:19:10	Thats what I would do, unless you can guarantee +stat items somehow? Do you guys have an item crafter? Anywa, if you don't, snag another level of fighter for weapon finesse.  Looking over raven knight in general, are you set on the class? Overall it seems sort of lackluster. I think witch 6/fighter 1/Raven 1/Fist of Raziel 9/Raven 3 might work better for you. I believe that that would work a bit better, I thought of taking at least KotR up to level 5 simply for having the Falter ability with the Raven, which says someone I designate with the raven provokes an AoO even from taking a 5 foot step, but comparing that with Smite (chain) in the Fist of Raziel, the Smite Chain is much more useful, so I believe that your build is functionally better. However, how would you qualify for Fist of Raziel after Witch 6/ Fighter 1/ Raven 1? That nets you only a total of +5 BAB, and the Fist requires +6. So I could either take an extra level of fighter or an extra level of Raven, and I believe fighter would be best because I can squeeze another feat out of it. Here's how it's looking so far: Witch 6/ Fighter 2/ Raven 1/ Fist of Raziel 9/ Raven 2 As far as +Stat items go, they're not guaranteed, but essentially if we have the money for it our DM is pretty cool with saying that it's available in the town we're visiting, unless it is a designated small village or poor city. We also have some class in our party called the merchant, which honestly I think is a worse off class than mine is from a combat perspective, but in town he can net us some pretty sweet discounts. Feats- 1- Servant of Heavens  3- Power Attack 6- Spontaneous Healer 9- Weapon Finesse 12- Silent Spell 15- Persist Spell 18- DMM Persist Get your melee feats out of the way first, while you don't have many higher level spell slots to metamagic. Then take the metamagic when you can use it.   As we have already played these characters up to Level 4, the first two feats are unfortunately concrete. Had I known which direction I would have been going with this in the beginning, I would have definitely laid the feats out as you have them. Also, Persistent Spell requires Extend Spell as a prerequisite. As it stands though, it looks like I could get away with this with my above mentioned build: 1-Silent Spell 3- Brew Potion 6- Spontaneous Healer 7- Power Attack 8- Weapon Finesse 9- Servant of the Heavens 12- Extend Spell 15- Persistent Spell 18- DMM Persist It's much better after realizing that while I personally love Ravens and the flavor of the Knight of the Raven, I honestly need to get this class up and running well, and the Raven Knight is slightly lacking in that department, and the only reason I'm really using it is because it's easy to get in and it boosts my BAB up. So, comments or concerns?   EDIT: I have realized that with my build above, I only cast as a 16th level witch at lv20, denying me 9th level spells. Considering my spell list, do you think that will be too much of a hindrance? If so, because I do get Shapechange and etc., how can I squeeze in Weapon Finesse? I'm almost tempted to go into a build that I had thought about previously, which offers full casting but a different niche: Witch 5/ Divine Oracle 2/ Thaumaturgist 5/ Divine Oracle 8 Feats: 1- Silent Spell 3- Brew Potion 6- Spontaneous Healer 9- Heighten Spell 12- Still Spell 15- Open 18- Open The cool thing about this build is obviously full casting, a planar cohort (most likely a Ghaele Eladrin or Similar creature) and the interesting Oracle abilities. So far with the class I've been using Summon Monster spells heavily, and it seems to help out a bit, so the Thaumaturgist complements that role with the Oracle allows me to focus on Divining things. I can also focus upon making some nasty spells through my metamagic feats and Spell Select. Overall, it's really a matter of niche and which one functions better. Any opinions?
#16 Krusk Dec 03, 2010 13:53:24	Honestly, I didn't look at the BAB. I counted based off full BAB classes, and was off. Maybe witch 6/Fighter 1/Raven 2/ Fist 9/Raven 2 Same end result but legal. A rebuild (PHB 2) isn't going to happen for those feats? Shame. Also, I think the divine oracle build is better, and can even include some fluff ravens if you want. Buy a couple in a town, and ask them anything for your "oracle" powers. Ravens speak a language, so they can answer you in cryptic riddles, that you explain to the rest of the group. Full casting really is a big deal, but going into melee is often very fun. Have you considered the spontaneous summoning feat? if you like the summoning line of spells? It is like right next to spontaneous healer, and gives you spontaneous summoning. (although IIRC it is natures ally, not monster, although I could see a DM house rule being an easy sell. Natures ally tends to have better combatants, while monster has better utility/spellcasting summons.) Witch 5/ Divine Oracle 2/ Thaumaturgist 5/ Divine Oracle 8 is a solid build. For your planar ally, maybe look into having it be some sort of divine raven angel that grants knowledge, but also kills everyone with a sword. Somehow if you could get the war domain, you could grab divine power and persist that. Giving you the ability to go into melee. Only problem being that DO 10 and Thau are both solid classes, so I can't think of a way to grab the domain.
#17 hunanoid Dec 03, 2010 17:55:53	Honestly, I didn't look at the BAB. I counted based off full BAB classes, and was off. Maybe witch 6/Fighter 1/Raven 2/ Fist 9/Raven 2 Same end result but legal.   This is true, however, upon looking over the two build and feeling out how each would function, I honestly don't think that this build is possible considering the way my stats look and, let's be honest, the base class I'm working with.    Also, I think the divine oracle build is better, and can even include some fluff ravens if you want. Buy a couple in a town, and ask them anything for your "oracle" powers. Ravens speak a language, so they can answer you in cryptic riddles, that you explain to the rest of the group. That would be pretty cool, I had never thought of that. Personally after building both and playtesting them with a friend of mine, I believe that I like the DOT build a bit better as well. It doesn't suffer from a terrible case of MAD like the Fist build does, and it is full 20 spellcasting.  Have you considered the spontaneous summoning feat? if you like the summoning line of spells? It is like right next to spontaneous healer, and gives you spontaneous summoning. (although IIRC it is natures ally, not monster, although I could see a DM house rule being an easy sell. Natures ally tends to have better combatants, while monster has better utility/spellcasting summons.) Witch 5/ Divine Oracle 2/ Thaumaturgist 5/ Divine Oracle 8 is a solid build. For your planar ally, maybe look into having it be some sort of divine raven angel that grants knowledge, but also kills everyone with a sword. Somehow if you could get the war domain, you could grab divine power and persist that. Giving you the ability to go into melee. Only problem being that DO 10 and Thau are both solid classes, so I can't think of a way to grab the domain. I believe I could get them to house rule in a Spontaneous Summoning feat that applies to Summon Monsters instead of Nature's Ally as well. It's not like I'm asking for a power play. Another problem that I had with the Fist build is convincing my DM to allow KotR. We are currently in Ravenloft with our "Day characters", and one of the pre-requisites is a vigil at the chapel, but the Witch is a "night character" and exists in essentially a different world, and the whole deal with the campaign is that these two worlds are colliding or something like that, so the vigil would be impossible for the witch. I don't believe there is a way to work  in the War domain, but it was a nice suggestion. I was brainstorming about what you had said about enjoying the Summon Monster spells, and thought of yet again another build. So far the two competitors are as follows: Witch 5/ Divine Oracle 2/Thaumaturgist 5/ Divine Oracle 8 Feats: 1- Silent Spell 3- Brew Potion 6- Spontaneous Healer 9- Spontaneous Summoner (Summon Monster Hopefully) 12- Extend Spell 15- Heighten Spell 18- Open OR Witch 5/ Divine Oracle 2/ Thaumaturgist 5/ Malconvoker 8  Feats: 1- Silent Spell 3- Brew Potion 6- Spontaneous Healer 9- Spontaneous Summoner (Again Summon Monster) 12- Spell Focus (Conjuration) 15- Extend Spell 18- Heighten Spell Again, it appears that I'm having a dilemma of builds lol, sorry for all of the chatter about this build and that, I just get new ideas and like to bounce them off of people to see which the best may be. Thanks a ton for your help!
#18 Krusk Dec 04, 2010 10:51:30	I do love the malconvoker... If you go malconvoker ignore the metamagic stuff. Snag augment summoning and becoken the frozen instead. Buff those summons you bring in. The downside of the malconvoker is that you have to summon stuff to do your thing. Summoning stuff is sort of  a pain and can slow games down. If allowed, it is defiantly one of the stronger builds around.
#19 hunanoid Dec 04, 2010 18:00:30	I do love the malconvoker... If you go malconvoker ignore the metamagic stuff. Snag augment summoning and becoken the frozen instead. Buff those summons you bring in. The downside of the malconvoker is that you have to summon stuff to do your thing. Summoning stuff is sort of  a pain and can slow games down. If allowed, it is defiantly one of the stronger builds around.  This is true, I definitely love Beckon the Frozen, but I'm a little wary about it, as they become 50% weaker to fire due to having the cold subtype. I pick up Augment Summoning in the 1st level of Thaumaturgist, so any other cool summoning feats? I figured Extend Spell is a solid choice for dragging out the length of my summons. When you say summoning stuff is a pain, why so? I understand that it can slow games down by having, say, 5 demons on the field in addition to me and my planar cohort, and all of us going on the same turn, but that leads me to another question: when you have things like summoned monsters or rebuked undead in your command with a cleric, are you free to direct them as you please? Or is there some sort of action that you must expend to command those things in your thrall?
#20 Krusk Dec 04, 2010 19:32:40	Beckon the frozen, you could probably argue use of the feat is optional. Summoning is a pain, you have to have stats prepped before the combat and you have to run multiple things. So it slows everything down. Its a free action to tell a summoned thing to do something, but it has to share a language with you, or be able to understand you.
#21 hunanoid Dec 04, 2010 21:25:25	I see. Well thank you a ton for your help, Krusk. I'm very appreciative of the advice you've given me and your patience with the multitude of questions, concerns, and ideas I've bounced off of you. I think I can finally do something productive with this class : D
#22 Krusk Dec 04, 2010 21:36:58	Hope so, was the malconvoker the final build you settled on?
#23 hunanoid Dec 05, 2010 6:39:57	Yeah, I decided that since we're short on fighter types in that particular group, I can help to make up for that with summons to provide flanking, meat shields, and etc. I also got a Spontaneous Summoning for Summon Monster approved, which is awesome. The Malconvoker is a class that I've always eyeballed thinking it would be awesome, but never think to make a character that can work with it. Again, thanks for all your help : )