And then I thought: you know, they're based on size category differences, not on the other creature's actual size.
And, really, how hard it is to buy potions of Reduce Person, or get the party mage to memorize/cast a couple for you? And at higher levels, maybe get an item of reduce person x/day?
Here's the basic idea: you're a gnome. You're Small. You reduce yourself to Tiny. That means that Medium creatures are two size categories bigger than you.
You use the Races of the Wild tactical feats and Blade Bravo class features to utterly tear humans, elves, orcs, and the like apart--not to mention what you can do to creatures who are *already* Large or larger.
The ideal race is, of course, the whisper gnome. If you can't get it, a regular gnome will have to do--but these are the Character Optimization boards, and whisper gnomes are cool, because unlike most gnomes, I don't want to kill every last one of them and hang their corpses from meat hooks. They're *serious* gnomes. They're stylin'.
32-point-buy:
STR: 8 -> 12, -2 racial: 14
DEX: 8 -> 16, +2 racial: 18
CON: 8 -> 12, +2 racial: 14
INT: 8 -> 16
WIS: 8 -> 10
CHA: 8 -> 10, -2 racial: 8
As a whisper gnome, you have a 30-foot land speed. How do these things *not* have no CHA penalty and LA +1? +4 dodge bonus to AC vs. giants.
1) Swashbuckler 1. Weapon Finesse! Feat, take Dodge--it'll come in handy later.
2)Monk 1. Carmendine Monk, Combat Expertise (Passive Way variant monk)
3) Monk 2. Improved Trip (Passive Way variant monk), Evasion. Feat: Carmendine Monk. You're all about the INT & DEX.
4) Monk 3. Speed boost (for when you're shrunken), Still Mind.
5) Swashbuckler 2. Wait for it...
6) Swashbuckler 3. Insightful Strike! Yay! Now we don't need to take Swashbuckler anymore. Oh, and a feat--snag Weapon Focus(rapier), you need it for...
7) ...Blade Bravo 1! You get Flourish and Goad. Flourish lets you add your class level to Bluff to feint--meh, you're no Invisible Blade. Goad lets you, as a move action, force a creature to make a Will save (DC 10 + 12 your character levels + CHA); if it fails, when it starts its next turn, you are the only creature it can make melee attacks against. A lot of things only have melee attacks. Additionally, Bravo gives you +2 to the DC for 5 ranks of Bluff.
8) Blade Bravo 2, "Mobile Fighting" means that moving 5 feet or more (5' step, anyone?) gets you a +1 dodge bonus.
9) Blade Bravo 3 gives you a bonus feat from an excellent list. Take Mobility, in hopes of snagging Elusive Target eventually--when you run out of anti-Big-Things feats. Speaking of which: for your feat this level, take Titan Fighting, Races of Stone. Titan fighting means that you get your dodge bonus vs. giants (+4!) against your Dodge target, as long as they're at least *one* size category larger! You don't even need to shrink to use this.
10) Blade Bravo 4 - Melee Sneak Attack +1d6. Why not?
11) Blade Bravo 5: this level is a tasty, tasty biscuit: Size Advantage gives you +2 dodge AC per size category vs. any larger foe that attacks you. You're fighting a human. You're under the effects of Reduce person, so you're two size categories smaller. You get +4 Dodge AC with them--AND you get another +4 if you smack them with your Dodge bonus, due to Titan Fighting. Take a 5' step that round, and you're getting +9. (+5 of that vs. any medium foe who attacks you). Vs. a Large creature like an ogre, that'd be +11 Dodge AC.
12) Blade Bravo 6. Another bonus feat, and a regular feat. Bonus feat: Improved Critical OR Improved Disarm OR Two-Weapon Fighting. Let's go with Two-Weapon Fighting. For your regular feat, Elusive Target is tempting, but instead, take Underfoot Combat (races of the wild)--you can now move into or through the square of a critter two or more sizes larger than you (humans, if you're shrunk!). If you move into the thing's square (with a 5' step, say... and then use Goad as a move action to make sure it attacks you next round), you get a +4 unnamed bonus to AC from "soft cover", vs. ALL attacks. Remember that +9? It's now +13 AC vs. whoever's square you're in, and +9 vs. everyone else
13) Blade Bravo 7--you're Small but Deadly (good of them to finally recognize it, eh?) and therefore get +4 to confirm criticals on anyone larger than you. Hmm, maybe we should have taken Improved Critical instead of TWF last level!
14) Blade Bravo 8. Melee Sneak Attack, that's +2d6 now. Not a big deal yet, but it will come in handy later.
15) Blade Bravo 9. Bonus feat! Improved TWF (alternatively, they could have been Improved Critical and Improved Disarm, or Imp Crit and Combat Reflexes). Regular feat! Confound the Big Folk tactical feat. Three uses, as all tactical feats:
-Knee Striker--move into the square of a foe 2+ sizes larger. Next round, they're considered flatfooted (remember that sneak attack? Maybe a "Deadly Precision weapon would be a good investment), *and* you get *another* +4 to confirm criticals (maybe a "Keen" enhancement would be a better one).
-Underfoot Defense:same requirement, move into their square. Every round after that, as long as you remain in their square and fight defensively... or activate Combat Expertise for -1 (that's it!)... other creatures attacking you have a 50% chance to strike the creature whose square you're in. Of course, your huge AC bonuses make this kind of moot--but still.
-Unsteady Footing: again, move into their square. You're gonna be doing this a lot. Next round, you can use a standard action to make a special, special trip attack: make a touch attack. You succeed! Make a strength or dex check (your choice--GEE, guess which!) to trip them. Improved Trip helps with this, as it's a trip attack, it's just a better kind of trip attack. They make an opposed check (STR or DEX)... but don't get to add their size modifier. Nifty! You've got Improved Trip, so you get to stab them for free when they go down. With sneak attack--they're flatfooted thanks to the Knee Striker part of this feat!
16) Blade Bravo 10. Boy, we just keep getting better, don't we. This nets you "Lethal Riposte"--once/round, when someone attacks you and misses you, you get to stab them. Oh, and they count as flatfooted, so you get to stab them in their oversized (from your perspective) kidney, spleen, mother-in-law, whichever.
This is where the Other Killer Gnome diverges into two potential paths. One wants more sneak attack damage, the other wants even more feats. Let's call sneak-attacker "Stabbity Killer Gnome" and the featmonger "Smartity Killer Gnome".
STABBITY KILLER GNOME:
17) Rogue 1. It *is* your favorite class. +1d6 sneak!
18) Rogue 2. No sneak, but you get a feat at this level. Sounds like a good time to pick up Elusive Target, but you're already about as Elusive as it's possible to *be*, with your ginormous gnomish... dodge bonuses. So pick up Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, because that lets you stab people in their very-much-necessary but oh-so-magnetic vital organs, Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger.
19) Rogue 3. +1d6 sneak! You have +4d6 now, and +INT to damage. A respectable addition, with your many attacks/round on downed bigger foes, even if you aren't an Uber-Chargerer or a Frenzied Power Attack Breaker.
20) Rogue 4. You don't want to be flatfooted. Uncanny Dodge makes you not be flatfooted. Being flatfooted is the thing that will kill this gnome, and this gnome, ma'am, ain't one as takes kindly ta bein' killed, lemme tell ya.
End result: Monk (passive way) 3/Swashbuckler3/Blade Bravo 10/Rogue 4.
Now, the SMARTITY KILLER GNOME:
17) Fighter 1. Feat! Elusive Target is ours!
18) Fighter 2. Feat! Feat! Claim Greater Two-Weapon Fighting in the name of King Ferdinand of Spain. You have plenty of options left: expand your repetoire by taking Silencing Strike (you ARE a whisper gnome), and once/day, stab a mage and make them not spellcast.
19) Fighter 3, Bleh.
20) Fighter 4--I'd say "Take Giantbane", but, funnily enough, Giantbane sucks. So take Improved Disarm. Or Improved Critical, if you didn't get Keen.
Better yet, be both Smart & Stabby (that sounds like a great gnomish band) by taking Rogue 1 here, for that extra d6 sneak attack.
Whether you want to be Smartity or Stabbity is up to you. Stabbity is more offensive; Smartity gives you a few extra options.
I'm *sure* there's other things to do with those four levels. How about Duelist? Four more points of INT to AC, initiative bonus.
If you're evil, try Assassin 3/Rogue 1, for +3d6 Sneak Attack and Uncanny Dodge and Death Attack (int synergy).
If you pick up Spring Attack with a level of Fighter, then three levels of Gnome Giant-Slayer are thematic and useful: at 2nd, another +4 dodge AC vs. giants or +2 vs. any other creature two size categories; at 3rd, a bonus on checks to escape grapples.
Other ideas are welcome--and if there's any way to improve the build (it doesn't get the BEST things 'til 12th-ish), feel free. Maybe by delaying Blade Bravo in favor of taking Underfoot Combat/Confound the Big Folk earlier?
So this build gets +18 or 19 BAB, RIDICULOUS dodge bonuses against just about everything bigger than it (that's what Reduce Person is for!), the ability to totally slaughter big things but make them fight it (Goad), and it's a pretty decent combatant against, say, a small-sized creature like a halfling, too.
Additionally, this build requires no questionable rules interpretations (it'll work just fine without the Passive Way monk variant--in fact, you can start as a rogue/swashbuckler or fighter/swash and bypass monk altogether, but that INT to AC is nice), it uses no dirty tricks, it's playable from 1-20 (5th is a low point, but not very low), and what it needs to do its thing most efficiently (size reduction) is very cheap and plentiful, from spellcaster buddies, potions, and so on.
Edit: it has been pointed out to me that the build needs more sneak attack to really be dangerous. Fair enough--you don't need the Carmendine Monk INT to AC with the kind of giant AC boosts you'll be getting anyway.
So here's an alternate, focused on sneak attack damage while he's got you flatfooted and such:
Whisper Gnome:
1) Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise
2) Rogue 1, +1d6 sneak
3) Swashbuckler 2, Dodge
4) Swashbuckler 3, Insightful Strike
5) Rogue 2, Evasion
6) Rogue 3, +2d6 sneak, Weapon Focus: Rapier
7) Rogue 4, Uncanny Dodge
8) Blade Bravo 1, Flourish, Goad
9) Blade Bravo 2, Mobile Fighting, Titan Fighting
10) Blade Bravo 3, Mobility
11) Blade Bravo 4, +1d6 (melee) sneak - 3d6 total
12) Blade Bravo 5, Size Advantage, Underfoot Combat
13) Blade Bravo 6, Two-Weapon Fighting
14) Blade Bravo 7, Small but Deadly
15) Blade Bravo 8, +2d6 (melee) sneak - 4d6 total, Confound the Big Folk
16) Blade Bravo 9, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
17) Blade Bravo 10, Lethal Riposte
18) Rogue 5, +5d6 sneak total, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
19) Rogue 6
20) Rogue 8, +6d6 sneak total.
In addition to that, get a Deadly Precision enhancement on each weapon: +2d6 sneak attack damage. 8d6 sneak, 7 attacks a round, +INT to damage, from a thing you just can't hit. Scaaaaa-ryyyy! In fact, this is scarier than the monk version. Thanks for the pointing it out, Tleilaxu_Ghola.
Edit2:I just noticed the great synergy of Goad (move action) and Underfoot Combat's "unsteady footing" (standard action). Keep them down and keep them focused on you.
Confound the Big Folk's Knee Striker actually makes people flat-footed, and seems to be a reasonably easy way to do it. So, an alternate build with Iajutsu master would be interesting, too.
Confound the Big Folk is great for anything small. I love how all the abilities have the same trigger.
The ideal race is, of course, the whisper gnome. If you can't get it, a regular gnome will have to do--but these are the Character Optimization boards, and whisper gnomes are cool, because unlike most gnomes, I don't want to kill every last one of them and hang their corpses from meat hooks. They're *serious* gnomes. They're stylin'.
I dunno regular gnomes can be pretty bad-ass...
Anyways, to comment on your build: the bread and butter damage of this build (sneak attack) is in painfully lacking quantity. Your strength is not going to be very good. Swashbuckler + Carmendine monk is good for int synergy and skills, but I think you'd get more mileage out of rogue than fighter. Basically, I'd just like to see more sneak attack dice.
Get it from a 21st level caster (Ioun Stone) and it should resist most dispels. All for less than 4000 gp.
So, with Deadly Precision weapons (+2d6 sneak, +1 equivalent) and, say, A start of 4Rogue/3Swash, -> 10 Blade Bravo, -> +3 rogue, you'd get +6d6 sneak attack damage, +8d6 thanks to your weapons, and INT on each hit. How's that sound? Better than monk?
Note how the Giantbane feat -- and several of the Races of the Wilds feats -- actually treat the target as flat footed instead of merely denying them their Dexterity bonus.
There's exactly one ability in the game that triggers off of Flat-Footedness (instead of the mere dex denial) -- Iaijutsu.
I'll leave it stand at that. ;)
BRILLIANT!!!
I am not sure how viable this is, but the idea is great.
A few things to consider. Reduce person can be permancied. You can also make a custom continuous effect item for about 2,000 grand. Pending DM approval, but it should be alot easier to convince him to let you shrink than grow. One item you need is something with freedom of movement. Grappling is only a touch attack, which should be pretty easy to hit, even with your bonuses. And once a tiny character gets grappled they would never ever get away. I also second iajutsu master. Just to see the look on your DM's face when you say how damage your one foot warrior does to the troll. Tiny creatures have to enter their opponent's square, does this involve an attack of opportunity? For that matter, can the big guy even attack when you are in his square? It's a good thing that reduce person does not slow you down, or else you would have get a mount to even move.
Speaking of mount, wouldn't it be great to stack up ridiculous uber charger damage, all while being mounted on the back of an ordinary housecat?
The build is pretty viable at all levels--as for grappling, 1) that's what Escape Artist is for! 2) try landing a touch attack against something with +13 Dodge AC against you, in addition to being dexterity based (so having lots of AC from dex) and wearing a ring of protection....
I really like the damage potential combined with the complete tactical win over Medium+ creatures, here. I'd try and toss Iaijitsu in there, but frankly, Blade Bravo really helps this build and I have no idea of how Iaijitsu works.
Shrinking magic is common and low-level enough that I don't really feel the need to make the build able of casting it--especially when it wouldn't gain that ability until its last days. Sneak attack, it seems to me, is the way to go.
I built around this concept sometime last year with not much response but my general conclusion was that the build was very MAD-heavy. Relying unneccessaily on Int isn't worth it.
It was a separate, Charisma-based skill in Oriental Adventures, and you rolled an Iaijutsu Focus check every time you drew a weapon and struck a flat-footed opponent with it in the same round (it had other functions, but this was mostly it).
If you beat DC 10, you added +1d6 points of damage to the attack. For every 5 points above 10 you got, an additional +1d6 was added (there was a maximum, but I forget precisely what it was. I think it was +9d6).
The kicker, though, was a popular PrC called the Iaijutsu Master. It wouldn't be too hard to qualify for here, either. This class allows a few things from early levels that this character design would love (Int to AC if unarmored, Charisma to Intiative, and ability to use a KATANA (bastard sword) as a finessable weapon, despite being two handed, or one with a feat), plus a thing or two that may or may not interest you (i.e. the ability to hit twice with your katana as a standard action) The real kicker, though, was at level 5 -- Strike from the Void. This added your Charisma bonus as bonus damage to each die of Iaijutsu damage you did.
This looks innocuous, but it isn't. Think about it -- it essentially lets you add many times your Charisma bonus to your damage rolls (the exact multiplier was based off of, yes, a CHARISMA-based skill). You're using Charisma here anyway, though not as intensely as would be optimized.
Giantbane Iaijutsu was my idea from around the CW era, where a tiny (preferrably Compressed) character takes the total defense action while taunting an opponent. The oppnent attacks and, naturally, misses (due to your insane AC during a total defense), and then you use Duck Underneath, drawing a toothpick as he went and hitting the guy for hundreds (or in properly optimized cases, thousands) of damage straight in the nadgers. With all the style points involved, you could probably get away with doing the U Can't Touch Dis dance on their corpse afterwards, although that may look weird coming from a tiny samurai.
With Races of the Wild, we get more feats, and we no longer need to use Total Defense to do it. Enjoy.
Can you really afford take a five foot step on your turn? Since you have to be in your opponent's square, any move will take you out of that sqaure, and unable to threaten an opponent, so I really don't see mobile fighting as getting a lot of use.
How to make fastest entrance? It would be too much to hope for OA Samurai to have Tumble as a class skill (here booky, booky, booky). The usual suspect for IF builds, Human Paragon, obviously doesn't work. Flexible Mind is out for alignment reasons.
Is there any way to get both Tumble and Iajutsu Focus as class skills at first level?
The OA samurai doesn't get Tumble, but the Iaijutsu Master itself does. The requirements are easy enough, once you get that skill down: Lawful, +6 base attack, Iaijutsu Focus 9 ranks, Improved Init, Quick Draw, Weapon Focus (Katana).
the psionic power is called compression and can in fact reduce you two size categories, when augmented to 7 pp.
Huzzah, I didn't imagine it. (Yes I know I could have looked it up on the SRD, but that implies effort on my part, plus that's time that could have been spent looking for ways to save ten percent or more on my car insurance...)
What about Human Paragon?
Because the idea is to start with a small race.
The only way I know of to get both Iaijutsu Focus and Tumble as a class skill at first level is to use a class that lets you pick your skills -- the most open would be the Expert NPC class. Ironic, I know. Alternately, use the Unearthed Arcana generic classes, but that's a bit too variant for most games.
Probably still worth it, that would get you both Strike Without Thought and Confound the Big Folk at level 12.
How's this for an entry:
Strongheart Halfling
Expert 1: Skill Knowledge: Iajutsu Focus, Tumble; Improved Initiative
Expert 1/Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Finesse
Expert 1/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 1: Quickdraw; Weapon Focus: Katana
Expert 1/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2: Two-Weapon Fighting
Expert 1/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2/Paladin 1:
Expert 1/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2/Paladin 2:Wild Talent
Expert 1/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2/Paladin 2/Warmind 1:
Expert 1/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2/Paladin 2/Warmind 1/Iajutsu Master...
Not sure what mix of IM and Warmind to take.
I'm inclined to go Expert 1/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 2/Paladin 2/Warmind 7/Iajutsu Master 7
This, IRC, gets the two best abilities (Cha to IF dice and Int to Initiative) from IM, while still getting lots of fun Warmind stuff (mmm...sweeping Iajustsu Strikes).
Incidentally, do Reduce Person and Compression stack?
This build does have some MAD issues, wanting a Cha as high as possible but needing 14 Int to meet the skill requirements. It also relies on Dorjes for Compression for quite a while.
Because the idea is to start with a small race.
Right, right, what am I thinking? Somehow that just popped into my head when I saw class skills and whatnot mentioned.
Something quick that I just made up:
Rock Gnome
28 pt.
Str: 12 (14 -2)
Dex: 16
Con: 14 (12+2)
Int: 14
Wis 10
Cha: 8
1. Rouge 1 – Combat Expertise
2. Swashbuckler 1
3. Fighter 1 – Dodge | WF: Rapier
4. Rouge 2
5. Rouge 3
6. Rouge 4 – Titan Fighting
7. Rouge 5
8. Blade Bravo
The only way I know of to get both Iaijutsu Focus and Tumble as a class skill at first level is to use a class that lets you pick your skills -- the most open would be the Expert NPC class. Ironic, I know. Alternately, use the Unearthed Arcana generic classes, but that's a bit too variant for most games.
The savant from Dragon Magazine gives you all skills as class skills.
I'm trying to convert this into a Living Greyhawk ruleset, but I'm running into even more serious MAD problems. Any suggestions on how to get that INT and DEX without having to take penalties in other attributes?
Don't. You don't need high Int - avoid the Swashbuckler 3 and your problem is solved. Your build suffers from XP penalties; consider Ftr 3 / Rog 3 as a prefix instead. Yes, you have a dead level of Fighter - you can take Ftr4/Rog3 if it really bothers you. Rog 1 / Ftr 2 / Rgr 2 / Swash 1 could work as well, although the damage is lower.
I'm trying to convert this into a Living Greyhawk ruleset, but I'm running into even more serious MAD problems. Any suggestions on how to get that INT and DEX without having to take penalties in other attributes?
Something quick that I just made up:
Rock Gnome
28 pt.
Str: 12 (14 -2)
Dex: 16
Con: 14 (12+2)
Int: 14
Wis 10
Cha: 8
1. Rouge 1 – Combat Expertise
2. Swashbuckler 1
3. Fighter 1 – Dodge | WF: Rapier
4. Rouge 2
5. Rouge 3
6. Rouge 4 – Titan Fighting
7. Rouge 5
8. Blade Bravo
That strikes me as about right--drop STR to 10 and con to 12 (post-increase), up INT to 16... although INT really isn't that much of an issue for you without Insightful Strike and Carmendine Monk. STR 10, INT 13, DEX 17.
The feats look right. Swash1/Fighter1 saves you a lot of time vs. Swash3/Fighter 3. In fact, one can just go Rogue4/Fighter 2 if one isn't going to get Insightful Strike (which I think is worth it; it's more than 1d6 sneak attack and you get it more regularly).
1)Rogue 1 - Dodge, +1d6 sneak
2) Swash 1 - Weapon Finesse
3) Fighter 1 - Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (rapier)
4) Rogue 2 - Evasion
5) Rogue 3 - +1d6 sneak
6) Rogue 4 - Uncanny Dodge, Titan Fighting
7) Blade Bravo 1
8) Blade Bravo 2
9) Blade Bravo 3 - Mobility, Underfoot Combat
10) Blade Bravo 4 - +1d6 sneak
11) Blade Bravo 5 - Size Advantage
12) Blade Bravo 6 - Two-Weapon Fighting, Confound the Big Folk
13) Blade Bravo 7 - Small but Deadly
14) Blade Bravo 8 - +1d6 sneak
15) Blade Bravo 9 - Improved TWF, Greater TWF
16) Blade Bravo 10 - Lethal Riposte
17) Rogue 5 - +1d6 sneak
18) Swash 2 - Elusive Target
19) Fighter 2 - Improved Trip
20) Swash 3 - Insightful Strike.
PAY ATTENTION!
Living Greyhawk also caps out around CL 15. 20-level builds are unnecessary.
Thus, a Human Paragon 3/Psionic Rogue 12/Iaijutsu Master 5 might make for a nice build (alternating the levels for early entry into Iaijutsu Master, of course), although you'd be fairly gimped in a Null Psionics Field, plus then you need both Int and Cha... If you add Practiced Manifester, allow Human Paragon to increase your psionics or just swap in one more level of Psionic Rogue, you can Compress to Tiny as a switft action.
For a higher-level campaign (say, one starting from level 16), a Psionic Rogue 10/Exemplar 1/Iaijutsu Master 5 and the rest in either Exemplar or Psionic Rogue seems to give a pretty nice build.
Or just OA Samurai 1/Rogue 14/Iaijutsu Master 5. Can't use Psionic Rogue unless you houserule it to be the favored class of some Small race.
Fnord, Compression isn't on the Warmind power list (nor does it really fit there), so you might want to take that into account if you didn't already.
EDIT: Why would there be XP penalties? Rogue is Whisper Gnome's favored class...
LogicNinja: XP PENALTIES
PAY ATTENTION!
Living Greyhawk also caps out around CL 15. 20-level builds are unnecessary.
I'm not all that familiar with living greyhawk. XP penalties can be negated by taking straight rogue if you don't want'em, and at level 15 they won't be an issue anyway.
Smrtgmp will see it in action sometime soon, as a big bad NPC. ;)
This is SO the concept I just built a character off of a little bit ago.
Smrtgmp will see it in action sometime soon, as a big bad NPC. ;)
It would make for a pretty great NPC--say, to duel the party barbarian.
"The gnome shrinks before your very eyes, and steps into your square. You Power Attack the gnome? *checks sheet* It seems thoroughly ineffectual as you whiff repeatedly; the Gnome trips you up, and.. *dice* stabs you in one kidney. Take... uh... *dice* 5... plus 4... plus 5d6, that's uh... 14 points of damage, plus... 3 electric and 4 sonic. 21 points. You stand up? The gnome stabs you again, Attack of Opportunity... take... let's see *dice* 20 more. You attack the gnome... no power attack? Okay... that's a miss.
The gnome stabs you seven times for 20-something each. In the knees."
Giantbane Iaijutsu was my idea from around the CW era, where a tiny (preferrably Compressed) character takes the total defense action while taunting an opponent. The oppnent attacks and, naturally, misses (due to your insane AC during a total defense), and then you use Duck Underneath, drawing a toothpick as he went and hitting the guy for hundreds (or in properly optimized cases, thousands) of damage straight in the nadgers. With all the style points involved, you could probably get away with doing the U Can't Touch Dis dance on their corpse afterwards, although that may look weird coming from a tiny samurai.
With Races of the Wild, we get more feats, and we no longer need to use Total Defense to do it. Enjoy.
Hunh. While that's pretty awesome--and adding CHA damage to each *die* is ridiculous--it bothers me, because you'd need to have like a hundred little katanas and draw like four to seven of them a turn. It's exploiting a mechanic in a way that makes no sense... which is great for optimization, yes, but not for actual games. If you only have one or two weapons, you get the Iaijitsu damage, but then... what? You spend time sheathing them so you can do that voodoo that you do?
Plus, my killer gnome, y'know, doesn't have to be a samurai. I tend to consider "not being a samurai" a major plus.
Sure, Iaijitsu is uber (or, more likely--nerfed) in games that use OA, but in regular games, I'd say sneak attack is the better choice because you can actually have it. :P
Unrelatedly, I just noticed the great synergy of Goad (move action) and Underfoot Combat's "unsteady footing" (standard action). Keep them down and keep them focused on you.
It's not meant to be used like Sneak Attack...the errata by AEG pretty much made that clear.
===Aelryinth
EDIT: Also, perhaps the addition of Craven would be worthwhile, for the extra SA damage.
Seems like a good fit for the Petal from MM3.
The problem is the -8 racial strength modifier. This is compared to the -4 of the original build.
With the +2 LA, even +10 Dex and +4 Con (amongst others) is not enough, even throwing in Flight.
Ignoring the fact that if it's an AEG errata, and not WotC, kicking ass is an exhibition of power in my book, so it still works. :D
EDIT: Also, perhaps the addition of Craven would be worthwhile, for the extra SA damage.
Craven would be good for damage, but a) No room until later levels, and b) I couldn't do it. No way. This gnome is not craven, he's one hardcore tall-ass-kickin' mofo.
On an off note, this thread has some of the greatest lines and mental images. My next gnome character will blatantly abuse the catchphrases "I may be tiny, but you're dead" and "You're so getting a toothpick to the nads". I think I'll make him wear a kimono too.
And yeah, I tried for a rather humorous presentation. "I may be tiny, but you're dead!" is the new "I'm a mushroom-cloud-layin' mother@#$!er". Or, y'know, not.
You should name the gnome Emsi Hammar.
-Cheers
Its just a shame Swarmfighting specifies you have to be small rather than the relative size difference.
*shudder*
With all those bonuses to criticals from Blade Bravo the Telling Blow feat from the PHB2 excerpt could be very nice if you can fit it in. And Acrobatic Strike, since you're gonna have to tumble around a lot entering people's squares (unless the anti-big people feats let you get round that - I can't remember)
Its just a shame Swarmfighting specifies you have to be small rather than the relative size difference.
The anti-big people feats do let you enter squares without provoking AoOs. Telling Blow could be a good final feat for the versions of the build that have a couple of feats to spare at the end. The PHB II is just looking better and better, isn't it.
Proficiency with the gnome quickblade. It explicitly says that you draw it as a free action and sheathe it as a free action. Against a flat-footed opponent, you can get iaijutsu damage on every attack.
Do you know what makes the gnome the best iaijutsu master?
Proficiency with the gnome quickblade. It explicitly says that you draw it as a free action and sheathe it as a free action. Against a flat-footed opponent, you can get iaijutsu damage on every attack.
Whoa. Okay, that's... wow.
Plus, my killer gnome, y'know, doesn't have to be a samurai. I tend to consider "not being a samurai" a major plus.
And for the record, you can never have too many gnome samurai. Or gnome ninjas, for that matter. Hmm, that gives me an idea that would likely give my DM an aneurysm. An entire party full of Tiny gnome samurai and ninjas, who run about and wreak havoc among the larger folks. It has potential.
Or gnome ninjas, for that matter.
It's Gnome Gninjas, my friend. Contrary to popular belief, the extra silent G does indeed make them more deadly.
That said, I love this build, and the lines it spawned. We now have a Killer Gnome mage, and fighter/rogue. I wonder if Gnomes can manage to make Cleric or Druid better...
This character concept intrigues me greatly. If I can ever get my hands on a copy of OA (curse Amazon for not having them in stock), I shall have to look into the Iaijutsu aspect of this.
Pretty much the entire rules for using it in combat were mentioned above, if you read carefully. There's one more restriction (that is, it *only* applies if you draw a weapon and attack with it in the same round, and it will only apply on the first attack after you draw it, so most iaijutsu masters before the quickrazor carried tons and tons of weapons), and some additional rules on formal Iaijutsu Duels, but not much more beyond that.
And for the record, you can never have too many gnome samurai. Or gnome ninjas, for that matter. Hmm, that gives me an idea that would likely give my DM an aneurysm. An entire party full of Tiny gnome samurai and ninjas, who run about and wreak havoc among the larger folks. It has potential.
Gnome Gninjas, you mean.
(Damn, beaten to it. Oddly enough, the original source that I heard this one from doesn't have that one listed anymore...)
It's Gnome Gninjas, my friend. Contrary to popular belief, the extra silent G does indeed make them more deadly.
Gnome Gninjas, you mean.
I stand corrected. Double the gnomish goodness, half the calories.
The ring of reduce person is canon, in Lords of Madness (look in the tsochari section). It's 20k, and even works on non-humanoids.
Is there a ring of enlarge person somewhere that works on non-humanoids too?
Maybe it is not impossible to combine the Iaijutsu and Blade Bravo routes? Something like...
Gnome Swash 1/Ftr 2/Sam (OA) 2/Bravo 1/Iaijutsu 5/Bravo +9
(1) Weapon Focus (Rapier)
(1s) Weapon Finesse
(2f) Improved Initiative
(3) Quick Draw
(3f) Combat Expertise
(5s) Weapon Focus (Katana) //OK, that takes care of prereqs
(6) Racial Weapon Familiarity //I <3 Quickrazor
(6b) Goad
(9) Underfoot Combat
(10i) Improved Disarm
(12) Confound the Big Folk
(13b) TWF
(15) Titan Fighting
(16b) ITWF
(18) Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) //I :-( @ flat-footedness
(19b) GTWF
No Uncanny Dodge until level 18, which is sad, but lots of AC when not flat-footed, and lots of damage.
The idea of a Petal Iaijutsu Master also sounds appealing... mmm... cha/dex synergy... I would probably go for the same skeleton, replacing Blade Bravo with... something. I can't think of anything else that would have good synergy. Anyone?
EDIT: Does anyone know how to remove the str modifier to damage? Other than 9 levels of Corsair?
Do you know what makes the gnome the best iaijutsu master?
Proficiency with the gnome quickblade. It explicitly says that you draw it as a free action and sheathe it as a free action. Against a flat-footed opponent, you can get iaijutsu damage on every attack.
+1 blurstrike gnome quickblade.
As we say in an MMORPG I play: zippy zoom zoom!
There really is no substitute for Blade Bravo; their +2 AC per size category difference is fairly important.
I have a feeling the right build could make a Petal shine without BB.
Pros: Tiny, fast fly speed, bonus Weapon Finesse, +8 cha/+10 dex/+4 int/+4 con/-8 str
Cons: +2 LA, no Blade Bravo
Getting cha to AC once, plus the int and dex bonuses, will more than make up for the BB's AC bonus. BB costs an extra feat, so a Petal has a little more freedom there. All that is needed is a good prestige class to fill in the missing 8 levels.
+1 blurstrike gnome quickblade.
As we say in an MMORPG I play: zippy zoom zoom!
Or just, you know, Confound the Big Folk. Blurstrike is nice for additional rounds, assuming the enemy makes it to additional rounds. :D
It also doesn't come into it's own until around level 15 and might be difficult to play through the lower levels. The main reason for that is because both Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk require Tumble 10, i.e. levels 9 and 12 are the earliest that these feats can be taken.
With these points in mind, here is alternate version. I should note that my GM allows me to delay feats, so it would be possible to pick up Underfoot Combat at 7th level, using the carried over 6th level feat, the skill prereq's now having been met. This would then allow Confound to be taken at level 9. I have used the Unearthed Arcana fighter variant which gains Sneak Attack as a rogue, instead of gaining bonus fighter feats. GM's may vary in how they rule that this combines with actual rogue levels; if the GM rules that the rogue and fighter levels are first combined to look up the SA then the progression below is effectively slowed by one dice; I have instead assumed that the rogue and fighter levels are independent and the SA then adds up. TR = Temple Raider of Olidammara
Whisper Gnome
Str 14 Dex 15 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 10
1) Rogue 1 32 Skill Points, 1d6 SA, Two-weapon Fighting
2) Fighter 1 4 Skill Points - max out Tumble and Search, 2d6 SA
3) Fighter 2 Feat(Wpn Focus hooked hammer) maybe, or Imp. Init. to catch foes flatfooted.
4) Fighter 3 3d6 SA
5) Fighter 4
6) Fighter 5 4d6 SA, Str increase, delay feat if allowed or Wpn. Spec(hooked hammer)
7) TR 1 Trapfinding, Underfoot Combat if allowed.
8) TR 2 SA 5d6, Str increase
9) TR 3 Uncanny Dodge, 1 feat - Confound or Underfoot
10)TR 4
11)TR 5 SA 6d6
12)TR 6 Imp. Uncanny Dodge, Str increase, 1 feat - Confound or Razing Strike (reason for TR!) Use Items to increase Wis to allow casting 3rd and 4th level spells.
13)TR 7
14)TR 8 SA7d6, 4th level spells including Freedom of Movement
15)Fighter 6 1 feat - Razing Strike, Staggering Strike or Telling Blow
16)Fighter 7 Str increase, SA 8d6
17)Fighter 8
18)Fighter 9 SA9d6, 1 Feat - Imp. Two-weapon if Dex boost item obtained
19)Fighter 10
20)Fighter 11 SA10d6!!, Str increase
Ok, so even if this character is fighting a gelatinous cube that Underfoot combat won't work with, even at the early levels before he becomes a Sneak Attacking death fiend:-) because this build is based on a fighter wearing heavy armour, he will be able to hold his own in combat. End BAB I think is +17/+12/+7+2, not including any extra from the two-weapons.
Temple Raider of Olidamara serves to increase his Sneak Attack and also once he gets Razing Strike then he doesn't need to worry about undead. Golems, sadly, still a problem but they are no-where near as common as undead in my experience. Before then, he can cast invisibility to help get into a flanking position.
Although Underfoot and Confound require 10 ranks of Tumble, I may be wrong but as I read the rules, you don't have to use Tumble to move into the enemy square. So he can wear heavy armour, especially in the early levels and isn't reliant on his Dodge bonus. Please let me know if I'm wrong about this? The skills he has bought to qualify for TR are unaffected by Armour Check so he can also function as a backup trap guy. This makes up for the loss of Blade Bravo.
For the same reasons of making him a decent fighter at low levels, I went for high Str and not Dex, yeah his damage will still not be as good as an Orc barbarian but it will be better than nothing - I'm not overly impressed with Weapon Finesse fighters. Effectively the size reduction penalties to strength can be offset by strength boosting items. It also means he doesn't have to worry as much about being grappled, just give him armour spikes :D
After level 14 another option might be Divine Oracle 2, to get the evasion in heavy armour ability, but I thought the extra Sneak Attack damage was the way to go, and that is without any Deadly Precision weapons! Obviously Blade Bravo could be picked up here too. For feats, maybe your GM would allow Extra Spell(Fell the Greatest Foe). Sacred Harrier might be an alternative to Temple Raider, too.
Thanks very much for the idea LogicNinja! Comments, anyone?
load of damage."Oh look at that a cute little kitty, nice kitty kitty (pat pat), aaahaah my eyes my eyes"
I suggest adding the staggering strike feat to your build.
If you have the option of using unearthed arcana you could use the sneak attack fighter or generic warrior in your builds.
Iajuitsu Master is cool, but it's from Oriental Adventures which was (if memory serves correctly) e3.0 -- in the games that I play in, that puts it off limits. With this build, I'd be using a continuous Compress Person (XPH), augmented to reduce me two full sizes. That requires a manifester level of 7, so if I buy an item that does this, it would be at least 14,000 gp.
Golemstrike (Sor1/Wiz1, Spell Compendium)
Gravestrike (Clr1/Pal1, Spell Compendium)
Vinestrike (Dru1/Rgr1, Spell Compendium)
1*1*20000+1*1*2000+1*1*2000 = 6,000 gp
Compress Person (PsW1, XPH)
1*7*2000 = 14,000gp
Only a 7th level manifester or higher can spend 7 power points on any single power, for any reason, so the manifester level (caster level) is 7
Looking at the varient fighter (Unearthed Arcana), 3 levels gives the following:
2 feats OR 1 feat and 1d6 sneak damage OR 2d6 sneak damage
Looking at swashbuckler (Complete Warrior), 3 levels gives the following:
Weapon Finesse AND Int to damage.
Seeing as how I could pick up Weapon Finesse with a bonus fighter feat, I guess the question is, "Which is better, Int to damage or 1d6 sneak damage?" This character is very skill intensive and with Dex/Con as the primary attributes, Int could be very useful but will be a secondary attribute. With a (as ChrisAsmadi noted) continuous magical item of Golemstrike and Gravestrike and Vinestrike (all from Spell Compendium), pretty much everything could be sneak attacked so sneak damage will be of pretty good use throughout the campaign. However, magically Fortified armor and such becomes more common in higher levels, and at higher levels with Int boosting magical items, I'll get more mileage from Int to damage than 1d6 sneak attack. I could take fighter now then retrain (PHB II) to swashbuckler later, but I'd rather just take Int to damage now.
Plus, 3 levels of Swashbuckler give +3 BAB, critical for Blade Bravo and Temple Raider of Olidammara.
TRoO is essential because, not only does it give us additional SA which is the bread and butter for this build, it qualifies us for Earth Dreamer. The 5 levels of that class basically let you walk through any wall as long as it's not metal -- I guess cloth would bar you, but you can slice through that or brush it aside.
Don't forget to always spend one point on Combat Expertise while in an opponent's square -- it's like constantly being blurred and giving your enemy a chance to get hit more often -- not that it says "any attack", so your enemy has a chance to stab himself if he tries to hit you.
Swashbuckler 3/Something 2or3/Blade Bravo 5/Temple Raider 1/Earth Dreamer 5/Something Else 3or4
To start with:
Varient Fighter 2 for +2d6 sneak, Int to damage?
Ninja 3 for Wis to armor and poison use?
Samurai 2, especially if your DM will let you use Weapon Focus (katana) in place of Weapon Focus (rapier) for Blade Bravo for free TWF?
Delaying feats is now core with the Retraining option from PHB II.
This is simply false. On page 193:
If the new feat has prerequisites, not only must your character meet them in his current state, but you must be able to show that he met them at the time you chose the previous feat.
However you would also have to use the generic expert instead of rogue as well because you cant use normal classes with generic classes.
The generic warrior in UA would allow us to get both SA and full BAB and Tumble as a class skill. If you are sure your GM would allow you to custom-buy a Grave/Golem/Vine-Strike continuous item - and BTW 6000gp seems very cheap, is that really how much it would cost? then I would certainly not bother with TRoO.
Personally, I'm still not liking Swashbuckler as that constrains you to light armour and that has implications for being caught flat-footed yourself! Give me some heavy armour any day :P
Do you know what makes the gnome the best iaijutsu master?
Proficiency with the gnome quickblade. It explicitly says that you draw it as a free action and sheathe it as a free action. Against a flat-footed opponent, you can get iaijutsu damage on every attack.
Awesome suggestion, but two notes.
1) The weapon is the gnome quickrazor; it's in RoS, for those not familiar.
2) You don't really benefit from being a gnome for the weapon: you're going to end up burning a feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency (gnome quickrazor) or Improved Weapon Familiarity either way.
Personally, I'm still not liking Swashbuckler as that constrains you to light armour and that has implications for being caught flat-footed yourself! Give me some heavy armour any day :P
Dont forget the size modification to your strength while reduced for the purposes of encumbrance. The heavy armor choice would have to be one of the very light ones before shrinking, or you could be dangerously being close to being heavily encumbered.
You don't really benefit from being a gnome for the weapon: you're going to end up burning a feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency (gnome quickrazor) or Improved Weapon Familiarity either way.
CW has a rule that says you can trade weapon familiarity from one racial (has the race's name in it) weapon to another, thereby letting you switch the razor for teh (ugh) hooked hammer.
Or just, you know, Confound the Big Folk. Blurstrike is nice for additional rounds, assuming the enemy makes it to additional rounds. :D
CtBF works in additional rounds; that's for killing anything one size category greater or less.
The Gninja
Gnome
Sorc 1 / Ninja 8
Attributes: Arrange them anyway you like. The only requirement is that you need a 13 Charisma (minimum) for this to work. Of course a high Dex and Wis is great to have for the Ninja.
1st lvl Feat: Dodge [just for extra defense, can really replace with anything]
3rd lvl Feat: Goad
6th lvl Feat: Skill Focus (Tumble) [Just a suggestion, can be anything really]
9th lvl Feat: Giantbane (tactical feat from CW)
Skills: Any that you want. Just make sure you max out Tumble.
Spells: Mage Armor, Reduce Person
The premise of this is simple… You cast Mage Armor on yourself, and reduce yourself to Tiny size using the Reduce Person spell (will last 1 min). When a Medium-size or larger opponent threatens you, you use the Goad feat (which is a move-equivalent action) to force them into a melee attack against you (this attack happens on their turn). You then use the Standard Action you have left over for the Total Defense action. You now have a minimum of +16 (+20 if the foe is a giant) to your AC (+1 Dodge feat, +2 size, +1 ninja AC bonus, +4 Mage armor, +4 total defense, +4 from Giantbane feat which will be applied on the opponents turn).
On the opponents turn, if he chooses to make a melee attack, it has to be against you. So he attacks you and your Giantbane feat kicks in… Assuming he misses (which I hope he would), on your next turn you get to make a DC 15 Tumble check to “Duck Underneath” your opponent’s attack.
So now your turn comes back around… You (hopefully) make your DC 15 Tumble check (as a free action). You move immediately to any unoccupied square on the opposite side of the foe. Now the “Death from Below” part of the Giantbane feat kicks in… You make an immediate single attack against the foe you ducked underneath. That foe is treated as flat footed, and you gain a +4 to your attack roll. So Sudden Strike kicks in… Now notice that you still have not taken your Move action or Standard action yet… you get to rinse and repeat…
You do not need a level in Sorcerer at all. You can do this with full Ninja progression. If you go full ninja, you will lose out on Mage Armor and just as importantly Reduce Person. If that is the case, this tactic would only work on large opponents (or larger). With the Reduce Person spell active, it can work on Medium opponents as well.
The only issue with this is… When you get shrunk to Tiny size, you have a face of 2.5 and a reach of 0. Which means you normally would have to enter the opponents square to make an attack on them. However, I am not sure if the wording of the “Death from Below” technique overrides this. The problem is solved by taking your free 5ft. step into the opponents square anyway, since you can perform a 5 ft. step before, during or after an attack.
The only issue with this is… When you get shrunk to Tiny size, you have a face of 2.5 and a reach of 0. Which means you normally would have to enter the opponents square to make an attack on them. However, I am not sure if the wording of the “Death from Below” technique overrides this...
I believe it does -- due to your size relative to the other person, the special circumstances (you just took a total defense action, they tried to attack you and missed) and because you have the feat, you're not required to make the ordinary DC 25 Tumble check to move through the space of an enemy without provoking an AoO, only the DC 15 Tumble check to move "around" the space of an enemy.
Race: Whisper gnome since it's the 'in' thing
Class Rog 1/Ardent 5/Uncarnate 10/Ardent 4 (or some other +manifesting class)
28 point buy
Str 6 (-)
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 20
Cha 10
So, this guy really gets interesting at about Lv 16, you have a character that manifests up to Lv 20 and can select lv 9 powers. Assuming he takes Practiced Manifester, Combat Manifestation, Shielded Manifesting, Underfoot Combat, and Confound the Big folk (leaving a few feats open. . and picking the mantles Conflict, Freedom, Time, and Life
- He is completely incorporeal
- He's completely immune to nonmagic weapons
- Magic weapons and spells that aren't force, positive, or negative energy have a 50% miss chance
- He's able to shrink himself up to diminutive side (gaining +4 dex, +2 to hit, +2 AC, and no penalty to strength due to not having a strength score)
- Even shrunk, he has a 40' move
- He can manifest psionic lion's charge, another easy way to get into someone's square
- He can heal himself and others of damage, ability damage, and level drain
- He can manifest time regression, and temporal acceleration
- He has a selection of other powers at full manifestation level
- He's (obviously) immune to grappling
- He can not only hide inside the space of a creature but can hide inside the creature ITSELF (I remember some rules for that on the wizards site even)
- If things go wrong, he can also hide in the ground (full cover) and pretty much flee any scene
- His attacks become a touch attack that does 3d6 damage
I suppose there's no way to make tumble a class skill? Because he can't take the big people feats without 10 tumble so he has to wait until 13
Other than that though. .look fun?
Basically, it's much like a psion/cleric hybrid in some odd ways. He gains the power points of a psion but gets far less powers and a greatly reduced selection. He chooses 'mantles' (like domains) and gains a power from each but also can only select his powers from those mantles.
Psion Uncarnate, however, is actually from the SRD. .it's at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionUncarnate.htm
free feats!
You need to be a Gnome for Blade Bravo, which really powers this build.
For fun. . .
Whisper Gnome Lurk 5/Psion Uncarnate 10/Blade Bravo 5
BaB 13/8/3
Str 6 (-)
Dex 20
Con 14
Int 18
Wis 10
Cha 10
Feats: Psionic Body, Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Rapier), Goad, Underfoot Combat, Confound the Big Folk, one remaining.
Items: Bracers of Armor (+8), Gloves of Dexterity (+6), Ring of Protection (+5), +5 heavy Steel Shield w/+5 defending shield spikes, +5 rapier of defending (for style, he'll use his touch attack), vestments of resistance (+5), Cloak of displacement (minor)
Key Powers - Greater Concealing Amorpha (3), Mental Barrier (3), Compression (1)
Compress to Diminutive (9 pp, last 11 minutes), gaining +4 dex, +2 AC, and +2 to hit
AC vs a human 10+10(dex)+1(base size)+2(new size)+4 (cover)+5 (protection)+7(shield)+5(spikes)+5(rapier)+8(bracers)+6(size)+1(expertise) = 64
In addition anyone else attacking you that's not your prey has a 50% chance of instead hitting your prey (confound the big folk)
If they end up missing your prey they have a 20% chance of missing you entirely.
If they end up not missing but have a non-magic weapon they miss anyway (incorporeal)
If they're using a magic weapon they still have a 50% miss chance unless it's a ghost touch weapon.
Meanwhile, even diminutive you get 3 attacks for 3d6 at base +13 (base) +10 (dex) +3 (size overall) so +26/+21/+16. And if for some reason you're in trouble you can just retreat into the ground and come back later.
Whee!
1) Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise
2) Fighter 1: Dodge
3) Swashbuckler 2: Titanfighting
4) Fighter 2: Weapon Focus: Rapier
5) Swashbuckler 3:
6) Bladebravo 1: Giantbane
7) Bladebravo 2:
It's for an Eberron campaign starting at level 7 and I'm going for as high an AC as possible. The idea is to use Goad in combination with Giantbane to completely occupy a heavy melee combatant.
It's here, btw: http://l5r.alderac.com/rpg/rokugan_ninja.pdf
I recommend potions of Protection from Evil, and similar buffs from your party. Prot. from Evil, Lesser Mind Blank, eventually Mind Blank.
I don't have RoS so I can't use it.
Is there another PrC that supports the size advantage?
And are there any other feats that helps with the size?
I really like the idea of this build.
You also give up some bonus feats (make them up with Fighter levels?) and Lethal Riposte at 10th (which isn't vital to the build).
Here's what I'm wondering: Would Knight 3 for "Bulwark of Defense" make a good addition to the build? Help stop them from running away or just going past you?
ok, so without Blade Bravo you would loose some AC bonus.
Is there another PrC that gives you some special regarding the size?
Or other feats?
thanks for your replys!
Underfoot Combat and Confound the big Folk feats are IMHO a lot more valuable conceptually. Underfoot lets you move freely into the space of a creature 2 categories larger than you (and is a prerequisite), which is a perk. The underfoot defense part of Confound the Big Folk is excellent (causing creatures other than your main prey to have a 50% chance to strike him instead of you) (and the trip bit isn't bad either)
Unfortunately, really maximizing AC with this kind of build requires Blade Bravo, and that leaves less room for all the feats. I suppose you could stop at BB 5 and pick up more Fighter levels for feats like Robilar's Gambit, Combat Reflexes, et. al.
As nifty as BB is, it's not THAT necessary from an AC standpoint. I'm a much bigger fan of the 'small folk' feats (especially if one gets compression). Against a huge opponent BB only nets +6 AC, which is nice, but you can get some pretty nice benefits putting five levels into something else as well.
The only problem I ran into with the concept was reach. Unless you do a build that utilizes a reach weapon and perhaps also some feat to increase reach (that abberant feat combo perhaps) most of the big things you're going to get an advantage against can whack you from a distance at which you can't retaliate.
Tumble. Poof, no AoO for moving through their threatened area. By the time you're getting into the Blade Bravo levels, you should be able to autosucceed against a single opponent. And if you're fighting Large opponents who can threaten multiple squares, you'll never have to tumble past more than two people to get to the person that you'd like to attack. Which means only a DC 17 Tumble check.
Oh, that wasn't the issue, I meant with respect to Robilar's gambit and feats in general that feed off of AOOs. There's nothing to stop a large creature from moving out of YOUR threatened area before whacking you from safety.
Though. . as I think about it. .if you're in the SPACE of something big then he'd have to take more than a 5' step to get away, wouldn't he? So he'd provoke an AOO for heading out of your area, which essentially means that Robilar's WOULD work. . if the creature moves out of your area and attacks he prookes an AOO . . and if the creature doesn't and attacks he provokes AOOs from Robilar's
Giantbane would need to be taken--Climb Aboard would prevent them from moving away from you, since you'd be ON them.
I don't have giantbane handy, does it work on non-giants? (i.e magical beasts, abberations, and the like?) If so. .that sounds like a lovely fit
19) Rogue 6
20) Rogue 8, +6d6 sneak total.
-EE
I don't have giantbane handy, does it work on non-giants? (i.e magical beasts, abberations, and the like?) If so. .that sounds like a lovely fit
Giantbane works based off of size category difference.
Shrink yourself and it'll work on humans. All of the Giantbane manouvers require you to take a Total Defense action and be attacked first, though.Add to that the shadow blade feat from ToB so you can add dex to damage so you can take advantage of the +14 to dex you now have and you'll be golden.. of course you have to deal with the -12 to str =P...
Add to that the shadow blade feat from ToB so you can add dex to damage so you can take advantage of the +14 to dex you now have and you'll be golden.. of course you have to deal with the -12 to str =P...
With what weapons does this feat work?
Has anybody noticed that one doesn't need to meet the prereq's for the blade bravo bonus feats?
I don't think this is true. The text does not override any prerequisites, and by default you still have to have the prereqs for bonus feats.
To think, all of those bonuses, and 20% concealment too...
scary.
BTW - i love this build - well done!
I think the being 1' tall removes the ability to sneak attack something Medium sized or larger.
One bit on the sneak attack damage: "A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach." - SRD
I think the being 1' tall removes the ability to sneak attack something Medium sized or larger.
The fact that you're climbing on its back might moderate that a bit.
Ahh... I know....
From the Tiger claw death from above does more damage based on size....
Assassin's Stance would be a good stance to pick up if one were to work Swordsage levels into the build (say, instead of rogue).
If you make heavy use of the tripping ability of Confound the Big Folk, then Swordsage or Warblade would be your friend, since a lot of useful maneouvers are standard actions (you can trip them as a move action). However, every level of SS/Warblade means less sneak attack for you.
The Shadow Blade feat, however, is perfect, even if you have to spend another feat on Martial Study to get it--adding Dex to damage will give you a very large chunk of non-sneak-attack damage.
Small query. I've spotted a typo for the ability scores. -2 racial adjustment would make STR 10 not 14. My only reason for bringing it is up is to ask how do you think it would affect the build and would you still keep the scores the same?
Cheers
1 Rogue (1) Combat Expertise
2 Rogue (1) Swash(1) Weapon Finesse
3 Rogue(1) Swash(2) TWF
4 Rogue(1) Swash(3)
5 Rogue(2) Swash(3)
6 Rogue(2) Swash(3) Swordsage (1) Shadow Blade(Dex to Damage)
7 Rogue(2) Swash(3) Swordage(2)
8 - 10 Blade Bravo
This build focuses on damage output through twf and shadow blade. Not only are you adding your to hit stat to damage, you're getting dex, int and sneak attack. Swordsage also gives the advantage of letting the player select a number of weapon focuses in a various array of weapons, choosing diamond mind gives a wf: rapier.
The only hesistation I have with this build would be that it delays Blade Bravo to level 8 instead of level 7, but I like the new Bo9S classes too much not to take them.
P.S. Icedrake, Assassin's Stance requires an initiator level of 3, I believe. Initiator level = 1/2 of levels you have in that martial adept class. So you'd need six levels of swordsage to pick up Assassin's Stance... but you can still get the Island of Blades stance with 1 level of swordsage which synergizes well with the sneak attack as it makes flanking much easier. One more level and you get wis to AC bonus, which synergizes with this build even more. And of course Shadow Blade as you've mentioned. 2 swordsage is a beautiful thing.
Assassin's stance is 3rd level and therefore requires 5 IL. Since swordsage gets a new stance at 5th level, a 5 level dip in swordsage would suffice to get it. On the other hand, one could get it via 2 feats by 12th level with no class level investment.
Blah, I got the terminology wrong >< but I was correct in the general idea: you can't get it without five to six levels of swordsage.
I was looking at the other third level stances today, and the Stone Dragon stance that gives you a +10 bonus to resist grapple and etc would be a great way to make up for your small size. The Setting Sun's Giantslaying stance would be another thing to consider.
Assassin's stance is 3rd level and therefore requires 5 IL. Since swordsage gets a new stance at 5th level, a 5 level dip in swordsage would suffice to get it. On the other hand, one could get it via 2 feats by 12th level with no class level investment.
You should reread Bo9S, under all the mutliclassing sections. You could your total level in non IL classes as 1/2 your IL when you take levels in IL classes.
Example 1 swordsage/2 fighter is a 2nd IL.
fighter 8/ranger 2 multiclassing into warblade would be a 6th IL for manuvers and stances he chooses at character level 11.
You should reread Bo9S, under all the mutliclassing sections. You could your total level in non IL classes as 1/2 your IL when you take levels in IL classes.
Example 1 swordsage/2 fighter is a 2nd IL.
fighter 8/ranger 2 multiclassing into warblade would be a 6th IL for manuvers and stances he chooses at character level 11.
Oh. My. God.
I think he... might be right.
"This process applies to all of a character's levels, whether they are in martial adept classes or other classes." (ToB, 39)
Prestige classes increase the initiator level by +1 too. Which means that if you load up ridiculous amounts of prestige classes, and take a single level of a martial adept class at level 20, you could potentially gain level 9 maneuvers with only one single level of a martial adept class.
I.e.: 5 rogue/10 nightsong infiltrator/4 assassin/1 swordsage = IL of 17.5
WTF. That's insane. That has to be errata'd. I must have missed a CustServ ruling. Does everyone know of a CustServ ruling that I don't know about? Someone call CustServ. This makes all those Martial Adept Class Leapfrogging progressions completely redundant. Holy bloody freaking crap.
Oh. My. God.
I think he... might be right.
"This process applies to all of a character's levels, whether they are in martial adept classes or other classes." (ToB, 39)
Prestige classes increase the initiator level by +1 too. Which means that if you load up ridiculous amounts of prestige classes, and take a single level of a martial adept class at level 20, you could potentially gain level 9 maneuvers with only one single level of a martial adept class.
I.e.: 5 rogue/10 nightsong infiltrator/4 assassin/1 swordsage = IL of 17.5
WTF. That's insane. That has to be errata'd. I must have missed a CustServ ruling. Does everyone know of a CustServ ruling that I don't know about? Someone call CustServ. This makes all those Martial Adept Class Leapfrogging progressions completely redundant. Holy bloody freaking crap.
I had not read the bit about PrCs adding one full IL for choosing manuevers and stances upon taking up another Initiator class. I'd disallow that for my games and instead consider all non-adept classes, base or PrC, to be at 1/2 IL.
I agree, that's just crazy good.
-Grave & Co.
For example, one level of warblade you can get:
Sudden Leap
Wolf Fang Strike
Dancing Mongoose
Raging Mongoose
That gives, say a 19 rogue with 10d6 sneak attack and TWF three of any of the four following: a swift move (using sudden leap) + full attack, one move + two attacks, one full attack with two bonus attacks and one full attack with four bonus attacks. And he can use it as much as he wants as the warblade only needs a swift action to recover his moves.
Or replace Wolf Fang Strike or Sudden Leap with Death From Above and the rogue has a guaranteed single sneak attack that deals +4d6 damage.
And he'll still have a stance and two maneuvers known to spare, which he could swap sudden leap and wolf fang strike out for in his maneuvers readied.
Or do the same thing except with swordsage and adaptive style (which means he won't be able to swiftly recover his maneuvers... requires a full round action, but he'd be able to change his maneuvers as he goes depending on the situation) and then give him the Island of Blades stance and he'll have a hard time not applying his ridiculous sneak attack on all those extra attacks... it's basically the equivalent of a free flanker/adaptive flanker feat. Throw in a shadow hand maneuver and you can change that stance to Assassin's Stance, which jacks his sneak attack to 12d6. He could take the level 5 shadow stride maneuver for that one shadow hand maneuver, and get a 50 ft. move. He'll still have a maneuver to spare. You can give him the 5th level Diamond Mind maneuver "Rapid Counter", which is the equivalent of the Opportunist Rogue special ability. Or give him another Tiger Claw 5th level maneuver, "Pouncing Charge" which adds a free pounce to his list (obviously you'd replace wolf fang strike with this).
You get all that...
For one %&$*ing level.
Level 20 rogue is a dead level anyway, so the most you'd lose is two to four skill points.
This is only the tip of the iceberg... imagine if instead of 19 rogue we had 9 barb/10 frenzied berserker. You could throw in Iron Heart Surge and never kill a party member through frenzy again, and still have a crapload of maneuvers to spare.
There's no way this is how it works. There would be absolutely no reason why ANY melee class wouldn't take at least a single level of a martial adept class at level 20. No DM would rule it this way. It's too good to be true.
This is only the tip of the iceberg... imagine if instead of 19 rogue we had 9 barb/10 frenzied berserker. You could throw in Iron Heart Surge and never kill a party member through frenzy again, and still have a crapload of maneuvers to spare.
There's no way this is how it works. There would be absolutely no reason why ANY melee class wouldn't take at least a single level of a martial adept class at level 20. No DM would rule it this way. It's too good to be true.
That's exactly how it works. I think the quote is "for multiclass characters... determine your initiator level by adding together your level in that class and half your levels in all other classes". Whether it's sane or balanced or not is up for debate, but yes, there's even less excuse for fighter 20 now.
I'm pretty certain that your IL is (0.5*non martial adept classes)+(martial adept classes). Only ToB classes that specifically say they advance IL do (CustServ response), so no go on regular PrCs.
The purest of optimization took some serious multiclassing, BUT, everything IS within one level, so it's all good...it's rogue3/OAsamurai2/fighter2/ninja1 (and with UA fractional saves, it's no loss).
Ok, so Improved Initiative and Weapon Finesse come with the race (if I read it right, if not you might need two flaws to get the whole picture in...)
1. Rogue - Skill points, sneak attack to stack with iajitsu later...Yeah!
2. OA Samurai - Iajitsu Focus as a class skill, proficiency with the katana, sweet ability to upgrade your weapons
3. Ninja (Complete Adventurer) - skill points, unarmored wis to ac, sudden strike to stack with iajitsu and sneak attack
4. Fighter - Bonus feat, nuff said
5. Samurai - Bonus feat again!
6. Rogue - evasion, more skills
7. Rogue
8. Fighter
9-18 Iajitsu Master
I don't have the whole layout for the build with me...unfortunately. But as I recall I was able to slip in Underfoot Combat, Counfound the Bigfolk, Giantbane, and the whole lot in with minimal effort. By the later levels of the build you slip in Flyby Attack and Great Flyby attack...
In the early levels, I put in Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm so with his insane attack roll and crappy damage roll he's actually useful even without sneak attack...a buzzy little bugger that annoys the enemies as the primary tank takes em out...and besides, that allows you to tag in Improved Trip to work with the Confound the Big Folk/Underfoot Combat stuff.
Whisper Gnome Swashbuckler3/Rouge3/Blade Bravo10/Rogue4
Stats: (32 point buy)
Str 12, -2 racial: 10
Dex 16, +2 racial: 18
Con 12, +2 racial: 14
Wis 10
Int 16
Cha 10, -2 racial: 8
1 Swashbuckler (Weapon Finesse), Combat Expertise, Dodge (from flaw)
2 Swashbuckler (Grace +1)
3 Rogue (Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding), Weapon Focus Rapier
4 Rogue (Evasion)
5 Rogue (Sneak Attack +2d6, Trap Sense)
6 Swashbuckler (Insightful Strike), Daring Outlaw
7 Blade Bravo (Flourish, Goad)
8 Blade Bravo (Mobile Fighting)
9 Blade Bravo (Two Weapon Fighting), Titan Fighting
10 Blade Bravo (Sneak Attack +1d6)
11 Blade Bravo (Size Advantage)
12 Blade Bravo (Improved Two Weapon Fighting), Underfoot Fighting
13 Blade Bravo (Small But Deadly)
14 Blade Bravo (Sneak Attack +2d6)
15 Blade Bravo (Greater Two Weapon Fighting), Confound the Big Folk
16 Blade Bravo (Lethal Riposte)
17 Rogue (Uncanny Dodge)
18 Rogue (Sneak Attack +3d6), Martial Study: Cloak of Deception
19 Rogue (Trap Sense +2)
20 Rogue (Sneak Attack +4d6),
With Daring Outlaw, your rogue and swashbuckler levels stack for sneak attack, grace, and dodge bonuses. You end up with 7d6 sneak attack before Deadly Precision weapons are added (+ your int bonus). In addition, once each encounter you can assume greater invisibilty as a swift action for one round (Cloak of Deception).
It might be worthwhile if you are playing a Petal and you use LA buyoff... I'll look into that.
EDIT: I should add that I am in fact working on a few Petal builds with LA buyoff.
I made this using the Complete Scoundrel excerpt that is out, please tell me what you think.
Whisper Gnome Swashbuckler3/Rouge3/Blade Bravo10/Rogue4
Stats: (32 point buy)
Str 12, -2 racial: 10
Dex 16, +2 racial: 18
Con 12, +2 racial: 14
Wis 10
Int 16
Cha 10, -2 racial: 8
1 Swashbuckler (Weapon Finesse), Combat Expertise, Dodge (from flaw)
2 Swashbuckler (Grace +1)
3 Rogue (Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding), Weapon Focus Rapier
4 Rogue (Evasion)
5 Rogue (Sneak Attack +2d6, Trap Sense)
6 Swashbuckler (Insightful Strike), Daring Outlaw
7 Blade Bravo (Flourish, Goad)
8 Blade Bravo (Mobile Fighting)
9 Blade Bravo (Two Weapon Fighting), Titan Fighting
10 Blade Bravo (Sneak Attack +1d6)
11 Blade Bravo (Size Advantage)
12 Blade Bravo (Improved Two Weapon Fighting), Underfoot Fighting
13 Blade Bravo (Small But Deadly)
14 Blade Bravo (Sneak Attack +2d6)
15 Blade Bravo (Greater Two Weapon Fighting), Confound the Big Folk
16 Blade Bravo (Lethal Riposte)
17 Rogue (Uncanny Dodge)
18 Rogue (Sneak Attack +3d6), Martial Study: Cloak of Deception
19 Rogue (Trap Sense +2)
20 Rogue (Sneak Attack +4d6),
With Daring Outlaw, your rogue and swashbuckler levels stack for sneak attack, grace, and dodge bonuses. You end up with 7d6 sneak attack before Deadly Precision weapons are added (+ your int bonus). In addition, once each encounter you can assume greater invisibilty as a swift action for one round (Cloak of Deception).
Take the levels in swordsage, you get so much return for a few levels in it. Two stances at first and second level, free weapon focus in Rapier + maneuvers. Why even bother wasting feats when you can acquire even more maneuvers and stances through cool class levels? Not only that, you'll be able to add dex to damage!
Multiheaded would not be worth it. For one additional head, you get 2 HD and +2 LA. Incidentally, what you DM ruled was correct.
It might be worthwhile if you are playing a Petal and you use LA buyoff... I'll look into that.
well, i am using buyoff. also.... am i wrong? i thought it added +1 LA for a creature who adds 1 head... so 2HD and one LA.. if you can buy it off.... it seems like superior 2wf (not to mention all the other goodies it adds to this build) is worth 2 of the crappy humanoid Hd's
I think the swordsage would be an awesome addition to the class, as you can pick up he +dex to damage feat and +2d6 sneak attack while in Assassin Stance.
1 Rogue (1) Combat Expertise
2 Rogue (1) Swash(1) Weapon Finesse
3 Rogue(1) Swash(2) TWF
4 Rogue(1) Swash(3)
5 Rogue(2) Swash(3)
6 Rogue(2) Swash(3) Swordsage (1) Shadow Blade(Dex to Damage)
I don't know if it has been asked before, but: Doesn't the Gnome get an exp penalty here?
I don't know if it has been asked before, but: Doesn't the Gnome get an exp penalty here?
Yes, until swordsage level 2.
Yes, until swordsage level 2.
Hmmm, thanks. Would there be a better way to get the stances then?
well, i am using buyoff. also.... am i wrong? i thought it added +1 LA for a creature who adds 1 head... so 2HD and one LA.. if you can buy it off.... it seems like superior 2wf (not to mention all the other goodies it adds to this build) is worth 2 of the crappy humanoid Hd's
It is LA +2 and 2 HD, I am pretty sure.
If you are playing Blade Bravo/Iaijutsu Master (my preference, by far), there just isn't room at all for Multiheaded (even with buyoff). For a non-iaijutsu Blade Bravo, it is a big maybe. You lose BAB, delaying your BB entrance by a level. You pick up 2 feats, but combat reflexes is of questionable utility. I still say it isn't worth it, but I see the attraction.
Anyway, here is my current working Petal build. It requires several variants, including LA buyoff and fractional BAB. Of course, it uses the OA samurai.
Petal Psychic Warrior 1/Fighter 2/Samurai 2/Barbarian (Dragon Totem) 1/Monk (Passive Way) 1/Iaijutsu Master 5/Swordsage 1/Warblade 2/Master of Nine 5
Feats (not in order):
Weapon Finesse
Flyby Attack
Quick Draw
Improved Initiative
Blind-Fight
Dodge
Improved Trip
Weapon Focus (Katana)
Improved Unarmed Strike
Combat Expertise
Adaptive Style
Shadow Blade
Underfoot Combat
Confound the Big Folk
Giantbane
Greater Flyby Attack
Gloom Razor
I personally built the classes using two unsafe assumptions: 1. My group doesn't use xp, we're given a fixed amount putting at "1/4 of the way to a level" or "one level" here and there by the dm. 2. I'd much prefer a halfling for this build since I don't plan on taking Titan Fighting, it would give me +1 atk / dam due to the dex increase and possibly an extra feat if I can be a strongheart halfling.
You could redo the build and exclude the rogue levels for swordsage levels. You'd lose one die of sneak but gain many more manuevers and another stance for 4 levels.
First off swashbuckler just is not needed anymore. It gives you 1 important feat, and int to damage that makes the build MAD. Unfortunatly it introduces experience penalties, or weekens the build to prevent the penalties.
Swordsage gives you a free prerequistie feat, tons of abilities that support the theme, and with 1 feat gives you both anouther prerequistie feat and dex to damage. It also gives you a good will save, and wis to both AC and damage (on some attacks). There is no good reason not to use this class. It can even be argued that there are no reasons to play any other class in this build.
The only other class that really looks good for the build is rogue. It gives evasion, and of course sneak attack that increases damage output, but it should be noted that swordsage can also grant sneak attack, and gives both dex and wis to damage as well as granting evasion.
With all that and assuming that you are going to play bladebravo, what is the best entry into bladebravo?
rogue 3, swordsage 4 - more/higher level manuvers and stances.
rogue 5, swordsage 3 - more skills, more sneak attack, and uncanny dodge.
With both of these builds what manuvers/stances are optimal? What does the feat chain look like with these new builds? After blavebravo is rogue or swordsage better to finish out the build?
Any takers for doing the grunt work?
First off let me say that I am not convinced that you need bladebravo in the build unless you are going epic. If however you do wish to go epic or want to use bladebravo for other reason (it is a very crunchy PrC after all) then this thread still needs a major overhaul.
First off swashbuckler just is not needed anymore. It gives you 1 important feat, and int to damage that makes the build MAD. Unfortunatly it introduces experience penalties, or weekens the build to prevent the penalties.
OT: Well, without Swashbuckler and Bladebravo the build just looks like ... less fun ;)
It seems to me that there are some classes where people just love the concept and are 'sad' that the class doesn't live up to the hopes (and with each and every book they hope for a power-level fix for these classes). *I* am guilty of that in any case. Another class in this vibe may be the Soulknife.
But back to topic:
I completely forgot about xp penalties, if you can't use the whisper gnome who has rogue as a favored class, you might want to drop swash levels from the build and replace it with ranger 2/fighter 1.
Well, it is not the rogue that was causing the problems, it was the third Swashbuckler level. But I did get what you meant! Thanks!
First off let me say that I am not convinced that you need bladebravo in the build unless you are going epic. If however you do wish to go epic or want to use bladebravo for other reason (it is a very crunchy PrC after all) then this thread still needs a major overhaul.
First off swashbuckler just is not needed anymore. It gives you 1 important feat, and int to damage that makes the build MAD. Unfortunatly it introduces experience penalties, or weekens the build to prevent the penalties.
Swordsage gives you a free prerequistie feat, tons of abilities that support the theme, and with 1 feat gives you both anouther prerequistie feat and dex to damage. It also gives you a good will save, and wis to both AC and damage (on some attacks). There is no good reason not to use this class. It can even be argued that there are no reasons to play any other class in this build.
The only other class that really looks good for the build is rogue. It gives evasion, and of course sneak attack that increases damage output, but it should be noted that swordsage can also grant sneak attack, and gives both dex and wis to damage as well as granting evasion.
With all that and assuming that you are going to play bladebravo, what is the best entry into bladebravo?
rogue 3, swordsage 4 - more/higher level manuvers and stances.
rogue 5, swordsage 3 - more skills, more sneak attack, and uncanny dodge.
With both of these builds what manuvers/stances are optimal? What does the feat chain look like with these new builds? After blavebravo is rogue or swordsage better to finish out the build?
Any takers for doing the grunt work?
For any Bo9S class, its important to try multiclassing your non IL classes at even levels, it helps when trying to get better manuvers and less head-aches for you. I was thinking about this a few days ago, and I'd lean towards rogue3/ss4 for a couple of reasons. It lets you get more manuevers per encounter and known and also lets you swap a lower level one for a higher level, you'll likely choose to swap a 1st level stance for a 3rd level one. You cannot swap out manuevers until 4th level, so any choices you make before that break point, you're stuck with them and the ss doesn't get any new stances known tilll 5th level I think (I'm away from my books at the moment.)
For schools, I'd look towards Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw and maybe Desert Wind. Setting Sun gives you the might throw chain, a much better trip that lets you use dex instead of str. Though you're smaller size and get a neg mod to the roll, all of these manuvers grant a +4 bonus to the roll and this negates your size pentality. There are some pretty cool counters in this dis also. Shadow Hand has Assassin Stance and the shadow jaunts, you should get the invisibility also, it lasts for the whole turn. If you pick up Shadow Blade, you'll almost never want to be out of these stances. Tiger Claw gives you extra attacks with Dancing Mongoose and etc, its manuvers also let you do something with your high jump check if you have it. Desert Wind gives you some okay AoE damage and extra flanking manuvers. Distracting Embers lets you get sneak attack automatically while alone for a turn, you can add fire damage to each of your attacks for one round, this dis acts as a huge dps/damage increase source for all characters.
The one thing I did like about the swash was its d10 HD and full bab. I'll need to see CSo before I drop it from my builds completely incase it has anything new for the class that might make it a bit more worth while. I do like the two alternate class features presented for the class from PHB II and CMage, the spell like abilities were pretty cool though they each could be emulated by magic items, and the replacemant armor ac for grace offers something for a thing (reflex saves) you don't need to worry about.
Here's the outline of a build that I'll complete later, that makes use of this scurrying little rat-fellow.
Abilities (32-point buy):
Str 8 (-8) = 1
Dex 16(+6) = 22
Con 14(-2) = 12
8 Int 16 (-2) = 14
Wis 14(+6) = 20
Cha 8 (-4) = 4
Classes:
Swordsage 4 (Wis to AC, damage on strikes)
Warblade 3 (Int to Ref, crits)
Swashbuckler 3 (Int to damage)
Duelist 2 (Int to AC)
Rogue 3 (+2d6 sneak attack)
Assassin 5 (+3d6 sneak attack, plus improved uncanny dodge)
Feats:
Shadow Blade (Dex to damage)
Razing Strike (against constructs and undead; powered by the assassin)
Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse (for Duelist)
And all of those "little person" feats.
Items:
Belt of shrinkage (continuous ML 7 compression reduces size to Fine; costs 36k gp)
Spiked chains of deadly precision (for tripping and Shadow Blade)
(Sorry for being brief, but I have the sleep madness.)
How about the only LA 0 tiny creature around: the Jermlaine?
Here's the outline of a build that I'll complete later, that makes use of this scurrying little rat-fellow.
Abilities (32-point buy):
Str 8 (-8) = 1
Dex 16(+6) = 22
Con 14(-2) = 12
8 Int 16 (-2) = 14
Wis 14(+6) = 20
Cha 8 (-4) = 4
Classes:
Swordsage 4 (Wis to AC, damage on strikes)
Warblade 3 (Int to Ref, crits)
Swashbuckler 3 (Int to damage)
Duelist 2 (Int to AC)
Rogue 3 (+2d6 sneak attack)
Assassin 5 (+3d6 sneak attack, plus improved uncanny dodge)
Feats:
Shadow Blade (Dex to damage)
Razing Strike (against constructs and undead; powered by the assassin)
Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse (for Duelist)
And all of those "little person" feats.
Items:
Belt of shrinkage (continuous ML 7 compression reduces size to Fine; costs 36k gp)
Spiked chains of deadly precision (for tripping and Shadow Blade)
(Sorry for being brief, but I have the sleep madness.)
Small creatures and trippingn does not mix very well. All tripping builds focus on enlarging the character to get a huge bonus to the trip roll by growing several size categories. In general, the smaller people feats focus on sneak attack damage and shrinking so you can enter a medium sized creature's space to stab them to death. As you get smaller, you can enter the spaces of almost any foe.
But anyways. Any comments on the build? I'm considering dropping the levels of Duelist and/or Swashbuckler in favour of more Assassin or martial adept levels. Another possibilty is dropping either Duelist or Swashbuckler, but not both, and applying the spare levels to the other.
Anyway, great job, and sorry to bother you with questions.
...Now I don't know much about character optimization, so I hope I'm incorrect, but isn't the Titan Fighting feat specifically directing the bonus to opponents who are of the Giant type? ...
The titan fighting feat lets you apply your bonus to giant types to any creature larger than you regardless of type.
Something like:
Rog 1/ Swash 2/ Rog 2/ Ftr 2/ Rog 3/ Swash 3/ Rog 4/ BB 10/ X +1
You end up with 3 fighter bonus feats and +6d6 SA damage but you put off a lot of the things that make this build really fun for 2 or 3 levels.
Thanks
--CJ
If you're starting at a high level, you can delay entry as much as you like, as long as you get BB5 and CtBF by your starting level.
The CS feats are nice, but I don't know whether they feat in.
I really need to redo this build now that I'm a better practical optimizer and with new sources (i.e. Tome of Battle--Shadow Blade makes the low levels of this blade five times better, and helps a lot even at the high ones). One of these days I may; it's just that school's been kicking my ass lately.
A later entry wouldn't make this less effective--it'd just get you various aspects of the build, well, later. And since it doesn't shine without its primary tricks, which come from BB 5 and Confound the Big Folk, getting each ASAP is good.
If you're starting at a high level, you can delay entry as much as you like, as long as you get BB5 and CtBF by your starting level.
I'm actually going to try playing the build at the bottom of the first post from 1st level. My primary concern was utility vs probable encounters at the different CRs. Since large and larger creatures really start to show up around CR4 I wanted to make sure I could get the best utility against the encouters we were most likely to come up against... that sentence sounded odd in my head, but I'm sure you can understand what I mean.
BTW, one of the things I really likes about this build was it only used 3 books that most DMs will approve... no questionable DM calls, no DM cheese. Thanks for the work you put into it.
The CS feats are nice, but I don't know whether they feat in.
I really need to redo this build now that I'm a better practical optimizer and with new sources (i.e. Tome of Battle--Shadow Blade makes the low levels of this blade five times better, and helps a lot even at the high ones). One of these days I may; it's just that school's been kicking my ass lately.
Without the levels of fighter, the Swash levels basically advance your SA dice by +1d6 to +2d6. The additional bonuses to the swash class features are mostly irrelevant.
I'll be adding books, though--I'll leave a simple "few sources" build, but fully "practically optimized", I'd like to include Cityscape for that one feat ( I believe) that lets you get 1 skill rank over your normal limit, so you can take Underfoot Combat at 6th and thus Confound the Big Folk at 9th rather than 12th. I'd also like to work ToB in, since between Shadow Blade and Giant Killing Stance, it'll be very useful.
That strikes me as about right--drop STR to 10 and con to 12 (post-increase), up INT to 16... although INT really isn't that much of an issue for you without Insightful Strike and Carmendine Monk. STR 10, INT 13, DEX 17.
The feats look right. Swash1/Fighter1 saves you a lot of time vs. Swash3/Fighter 3. In fact, one can just go Rogue4/Fighter 2 if one isn't going to get Insightful Strike (which I think is worth it; it's more than 1d6 sneak attack and you get it more regularly).
1)Rogue 1 - Dodge, +1d6 sneak
2) Swash 1 - Weapon Finesse
3) Fighter 1 - Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (rapier)
4) Rogue 2 - Evasion
5) Rogue 3 - +1d6 sneak
6) Rogue 4 - Uncanny Dodge, Titan Fighting
7) Blade Bravo 1
8) Blade Bravo 2
9) Blade Bravo 3 - Mobility, Underfoot Combat
10) Blade Bravo 4 - +1d6 sneak
11) Blade Bravo 5 - Size Advantage
12) Blade Bravo 6 - Two-Weapon Fighting, Confound the Big Folk
13) Blade Bravo 7 - Small but Deadly
14) Blade Bravo 8 - +1d6 sneak
15) Blade Bravo 9 - Improved TWF, Greater TWF
16) Blade Bravo 10 - Lethal Riposte
17) Rogue 5 - +1d6 sneak
18) Swash 2 - Elusive Target
19) Fighter 2 - Improved Trip
20) Swash 3 - Insightful Strike.
To those who say take Rogue first, don't forget you get max hp for your very first HD (level). This would be better with Swashbuckler than Rogue!
Without the levels of fighter, the Swash levels basically advance your SA dice by +1d6 to +2d6. The additional bonuses to the swash class features are mostly irrelevant.
The first three levels of the Swashbuckler class are comparable to the first three levels of the Fighter class.
32-point-buy:
STR: 8 -> 12, -2 racial: 14
DEX: 8 -> 16, +2 racial: 18
CON: 8 -> 12, +2 racial: 14
INT: 8 -> 16
WIS: 8 -> 10
CHA: 8 -> 10, -2 racial: 8
you fail first grade math
To those who say take Rogue first, don't forget you get max hp for your very first HD (level). This would be better with Swashbuckler than Rogue!
However I would say the skill points given by taking Rogue at level 1 are far better than 4 extra hit points.
(8 x 4 + intelligence modifier) x 4 versus 4 Hit Points.
Remember, this character is based around not being hit ;)
I am trying the Rogue'ish build now in a campaign where we start at level 8.
We only start with 9.000 gold pieces, so it's a bit of a challenge to pick the right starting equipment
you fail first grade math
Yeah! No one else in the thread has pointed that out! WOO! YOU GO, INTERNET GUY!
Yeah! No one else in the thread has pointed that out! WOO! YOU GO, INTERNET GUY!
sorry, logicninja, but I had to ninja your logic
Hi,
Small query. I've spotted a typo for the ability scores. -2 racial adjustment would make STR 10 not 14. My only reason for bringing it is up is to ask how do you think it would affect the build and would you still keep the scores the same?
Cheers
Post # 119
Is there any way to add the Craven feat to this build and still keep up the SA dice?
Craven would be good for damage, but a) No room until later levels, and b) I couldn't do it. No way. This gnome is not craven, he's one hardcore tall-ass-kickin' mofo.
So sayeth the ninja.
Yeah! No one else in the thread has pointed that out! WOO! YOU GO, INTERNET GUY!
So sayeth the ninja.
And it was even on the last page
Last night in my weekly table top game our group was involved in a series of gladatorial combats. In the final combat of the evening we had to face a gargantuan sized monster that we had been led to believe was somethig completely different than what it was (dirty, lying promoters). Since the spellcasters of the group had prepared their spells with something so different in mind there was not a lot they could do to help, other than with defenses and buffs. The DM described the monster as having four tentacles and a big toothy maw. I thought about this and my first thought was "Oh no. Swallow whole." but then my second thought was "Hey, I'm a 10th level swordsage with a 22 DEX, combat reflexes and the Shifting Defense stance." So, I ran in on the first round of combat and started attacking. The monster on it's turn tried to hit me but could not as it's paltry 6 natural attacks was less than my 7 AoO for the round. Basically I stood there for about 10 mins of game time hacking at the beast while it tried but failed every time to hit me. The rest of the party just sat down on the ground and watched my gnome swordsage kill a gargantuan monster all by himself.
So, Shifting Defense + high DEX score + Combat Reflexes = WIN!!!
if you can work the Daring Outlaw feat in there it would net you +1d6 of sneak attack and get you an additional +2 of Dodge Bonus
Whisper Gnome Swash 1/Warblade 1/Ftr 1/Wbl +1/Ftr +1/BB 1/IM 5/BB +9
feats
Improved Initiative
Weapon Finesse
Quick Draw
Combat Expertise
Weapon Focus (Rapier)
Weapon Focus (Katana)
Goad
Underfoot Combat
Confound the Big Folk
Giantbane
Dodge
Titan Fighting
Mobility
Elusive Target
Improved Trip
Weapon Finesse
Quick Draw
Combat Expertise
Weapon Focus (Rapier)
Weapon Focus (Katana)
Goad
Underfoot Combat
Confound the Big Folk
Giantbane
Dodge
Titan Fighting
Mobility
Elusive Target
Improved Trip
Just my two cents even though I don't remember which classes offer this options and if it would fit in the builds
whisper gnome
1)Savant 1 - Combat Expertise, can grab iaijutsu focus if wanted since all skills are class skills
2) Rogue 1 - SA +1d6
3) Fighter 1 - Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (rapier)
4) Rogue 2 - Evasion
5) Rogue 3 - +1d6 sneak
6) Rogue 4 - Uncanny Dodge, Titan Fighting
7) Savant 2 - Underfoot Combat
8) fighter 2 - Giantbane
9) Blade Bravo 1 - Confound the Big Folk
Probably still needs to be optimized but I wanted to have CtBF and Giantbane ASAP. Could later take the 3rd lvl of Savant since it gives SA. Maybe I should try to get BB sooner too.
If by savant you mean factotum, then I would drop it. You could go Rog 4/Swash 1/Ftr 1/BB 1/Ftr +1/BB and still get CtBF at level 9.
You could go Rog 4/Swash 1/Ftr 1/BB 1/Ftr +1/BB and still get CtBF at level 9.
How do you get CtBF at lvl9 with that ? You need 10 ranks in tumble (lvl7) to get Underfoot Combat and nothing has that feat as a bonus feat so unless you have a free bonus feat you need to grab it at lvl9 and then CtBF at lvl12
Savant is base class of Dragon Compendium, it's basicly a jack of all trades, it gets all skills as class skills, some free bonus feats (1 at lvl2 which I used to get Underfoot combat at lvl7), some SA and later arcane and divine spells.
How do you get CtBF at lvl9 with that ? You need 10 ranks in tumble (lvl7) to get Underfoot Combat and nothing has that feat as a bonus feat so unless you have a free bonus feat you need to grab it at lvl9 and then CtBF at lvl12
Yeah, my bad. I thought Underfoot was a fighter feat.
Savant is base class of Dragon Compendium, it's basicly a jack of all trades, it gets all skills as class skills, some free bonus feats (1 at lvl2 which I used to get Underfoot combat at lvl7), some SA and later arcane and divine spells.
By taking savant, you are trading away power in the long term for the short term benefit of having CtBF earlier. I wouldn't do it, but YMMV.
By taking savant, you are trading away power in the long term for the short term benefit of having CtBF earlier. I wouldn't do it, but YMMV.
Ya I know it's far less optimized in the long run but our games kinda tend to end around lvl10-12 which is why I tried to get the feat sooner than lvl12 so I can have fun with it :P
Right now I'm starting with Rogue 1 for the bonus skill points even though that means I lose the 4 guaranteed hit points from starting with Swashbuckler. I think have the skill points is going to be betting in the short term while the character is building up to the mid-level realm of 7-10th level. I'm also planning to take the Complete Mage (I think) swashbuckler varient that replaces the Grace class feature with the ability to cast Blur 1+IntMod times per day. As a stabity rogue that just seems like a fair trade.
Does anyone have any opinions on further mods? I'm looking at the feat in Complete Scoundrel that lets you add Swashbuckler and Rogue levels for sneak attack damage but I'm not sure 1 extra SA die is worth a feat. I don't have Complete Champion or Bo9S and I'm not sure the DM would allow them anyway (he doesn't own them, either).
Any help, comments, or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
--CJD
If you're starting from level one, it's fairly critical that you use the halfling monk substitution level in the Champions of Valor web enhancement--or at least the Primary Contact feat in Cityscape to let you take Underfoot Combat at 9th. Underfoot Combat is what really lets the build work.
If you're going to be taking the halfling monk substitution levels, you'll need to either convince the DM to let a gnome take them, or to let a halfling take Blade Bravo (which fits fairly well), or give up Blade Bravo.
Swashbuckler 3/Monk 2/Rogue 1 will make for a solid entry, especially with Carmendine Monk. Don't forget to take Giantkiller, and make sure you can stay on whatever monster it is you climb; alternatively, Stand Still will let you AoO-stop people who are trying to get away from you.
Hmmm... maybe I didn't phrase that right... The build I was planning on using doesn't use the monk; the DM doesn't really like Monks and Monk Variants would be a hard sell. What I would really like to do is stick strictly with rogue and swashbuckler and enter Blade Bravo as quickly as possible.
From a non-optimization (background) standpoint, the party has 8 characters in it: 4 tanks, one pure mage, one pure cleric, a rogue/cleric going towards Shadowbane Stalker, and me. In addition, we will be fighting mostly kobalds and goblin-ilk for the first several levels. Through level 4 I am expecting we are going to have a fairly easy time of it. Kobald sorcerers are going to suck once we get to about level 5, but that's a ways out right now.
With a front-line of 4 tanks I don't know how often I'm going to be able to get into position to even try a sneak attack. So, to maintain some utility to the party, I'm planning on taking standard skills in the rogue levels and stealth skills in the swashbuckler levels so I can scout and add the +2 for assists to the rogue/cleric who will be the primary skill monkey. The only exceptions to this will be the skills necessary to enter Blade Bravo. All of my feats will be focused on maxing out my abilities once I get there.
I'll post the theoretical build once I have access to my books again, but for right now I'm looking at a slightly modified version of the build towards the last post of the first page.
Thanks again
--CJD
Its tiny, +3NA, -6Str, +6Dex, -2Wis, -2Cha, bonus weapon finesse, a bite atack, and a blinding squirt ... a pretty decent start for a +0LA monstrous humanoid :D
I'll probably start playing this race with the underfoot combat / confound the big folk / fell the greatest foe combo soon.
The third tactical maneuver is a TRAP. You count as climbing while using it. And if you don't have a racial climb speed you are denied your Dexterity while climbing. The -4 the creature gets to hit you does NOT cancel out the loss of Dexterity and Dodge bonuses to AC!
Instead, you could take advantage of your Sneak Attack damage and use Stand Still to stop them from moving away. Combine this with Tripping and they should have a very hard time moving away.
Yeah. Requires 13 Str...but this is the Char Op board. We can squeeze the weirdest combination of things into our builds.
Giantbane is actually a really BAD feat. Two of it's maneuvers require you to use Total Defense--with Confound the Big Folk and Underfoot Combat, you shouldn't need to sacrifice attack actions for extra AC.
The third tactical maneuver is a TRAP. You count as climbing while using it. And if you don't have a racial climb speed you are denied your Dexterity while climbing. The -4 the creature gets to hit you does NOT cancel out the loss of Dexterity and Dodge bonuses to AC!
Instead, you could take advantage of your Sneak Attack damage and use Stand Still to stop them from moving away. Combine this with Tripping and they should have a very hard time moving away.
Yeah. Requires 13 Str...but this is the Char Op board. We can squeeze the weirdest combination of things into our builds.
Getting Str 13 while constantly reducing your size is very troublesome.
Just take 10 levels of Rogue. This gives you alot of skillpoints to play with. Nice amount of sneak attack dice. Uncanny Dodge.
At level 9 you could take underfoot combat and at level 10 you could take a special ability. This could be a bonus feat instead of the other abilities. So, why not take Confound The Big Folk for it. At level 11 you could go for Blade Bravo, for Goad, or become a fighter to get it.
This may not be optimised in power, but when you start from level 1 and want to do this kind of thing, you'd better do it as soon as possible.
The third tactical maneuver is a TRAP. You count as climbing while using it. And if you don't have a racial climb speed you are denied your Dexterity while climbing. The -4 the creature gets to hit you does NOT cancel out the loss of Dexterity and Dodge bonuses to AC!
Shadow Hand level 3 Stance Dance of the Spider should handle that pretty easily.
-AS-
Using the variant Kobold from the 2nd web enhancement to Races of the Dragon, a Kobold "gains":
Slight Build:
The physical stature of kobolds lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category smaller. Whenever a kobold is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), the kobold is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character. A kobold is also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space. A kobold can use weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty. However, the space and reach of a kobold remain those of a creature of their actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.
This could also be potentially fun with a Kobold build.
Using the variant Kobold from the 2nd web enhancement to Races of the Dragon, a Kobold "gains":Slight Build:The physical stature of kobolds lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category smaller. Whenever a kobold is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), the kobold is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character. A kobold is also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space. A kobold can use weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty. However, the space and reach of a kobold remain those of a creature of their actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.
Blade Bravo is Gnome only, so you'd have to take 3 levels of Stoneblessed to get into Blade Bravo with a Kobold. Possible tho.
Ah yes
Also makes it harder to convince the DM about it, seeing how well Gnomes and Kobolds come along :P
Thanks for the replies
Whisper Gnome:
1) Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise
2) Rogue 1, +1d6 sneak
3) Swashbuckler 2, Dodge
4) Swashbuckler 3, Insightful Strike
5) Rogue 2, Evasion
6) Rogue 3, +2d6 sneak, Weapon Focus: Rapier
7) Rogue 4, Uncanny Dodge
8) Blade Bravo 1, Flourish, Goad
9) Blade Bravo 2, Mobile Fighting, Titan Fighting
10) Blade Bravo 3, Mobility
11) Blade Bravo 4, +1d6 (melee) sneak - 3d6 total
12) Blade Bravo 5, Size Advantage, Underfoot Combat
13) Blade Bravo 6, Two-Weapon Fighting
14) Blade Bravo 7, Small but Deadly
15) Blade Bravo 8, +2d6 (melee) sneak - 4d6 total, Confound the Big Folk
16) Blade Bravo 9, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
17) Blade Bravo 10, Lethal Riposte
18) Rogue 5, +5d6 sneak total, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
19) Rogue 6
20) Rogue 8, +6d6 sneak total.
This particular build uses UA flaws to provide two bonus feats. For those not able to take flaws, here are some feats not completely necessary
Daring Outlaw(take Rogue 5 instead of Swashbukler 4. Lose 1d6 SA, 1 FortGet smaller HD and 4 more skill points)
TWF feats(i.e. take dodge at Blade Bravo 3, Mobility at Blade Bravo 6, and Sidestep at lvl 18)
Titan Fighting
Requirements for feats new to this build:
Sidestep has prereqs of Dodge and Mobility
Martial Study may require you to have a character level of at least 2(book is unclear on this)
Martial Stance(Thicket of Blades) DEFINITELY requires a character level of at least 10, and a Martial Study from the Devoted Spirit discipline, my favorites were Crusader's Strike (1d6 + 1/2 characte level[max +5) HP to you or an ally within 10' if it lands) or Foehammer (deal an extra 2d6 and bypass damage reduction if it lands). Both are single attacks made as a standard action, available once an encounter.
See following post for level progression
[HTML]Level Info| Class Levels | | Saves |
Lvl| XP|Rge|Ftr|Swb|BB| HP|SP|FRT|REF|WIL|BAB| SA| Feats| Class Skills
1| 0| 1| 0| 0| 0| 6| 8| 0| 2| 0| 0|1d6|Weapon.Focus,Sickly,Shaky-| Trap Finding
2| 1000| 1| 0| 1| 0|d10| 8| 2| 2| 0| 1| |(Cont)Dodge,Titan Fighting| Weapon Finesse
3| 3000| 2| 0| 1| 0| d6| 2| 2| 3| 0| 2| | Martial Study(Devo)| Evasion
4| 6000| 3| 0| 1| 0| d6| 8| 3| 3| 1| 3|2d6| | Trap Sense +1
5| 10000| 3| 1| 1| 0|d10| 4| 5| 3| 1| 4| | |Combat Expertise
6| 15000| 3| 1| 2| 0|d10| 4| 6| 4| 1| 5|3d6| Daring Outlaw| Grace +1
7| 21000| 4| 1| 2| 0| d6| 8| 6| 4| 1| 5| | | Uncanny Dodge
8| 28000| 4| 1| 2| 1| d8| 4| 6| 6| 1| 6| | | Flourish, Goad
9| 36000| 4| 1| 2| 2| d8| 4| 6| 7| 1| 7| | Underfoot Combat| Mobile Fighting
10| 45000| 4| 2| 2| 2|d10| 2| 7| 7| 1| 8| |M.Stance:Thicket of Blades|
11| 55000| 4| 2| 3| 2|d10| 4| 7| 8| 2| 9|4d6| |Intuitive Strike
12| 66000| 4| 2| 3| 3| d8| 4| 8| 8| 3| 10| | Side Step| Mobility
13| 78000| 4| 2| 3| 4| d8| 4| 8| 9| 3| 11|5d6| |
14| 93600| 4| 2| 4| 4|d10| 4| 9| 9| 3| 12| | |
15|110400| 4| 2| 4| 5| d8| 4| 9| 9| 3| 13| | Confound the Big Folk| Size Advantage
16|128400| 4| 2| 4| 6| d8| 4| 10| 10| 4| 14| | | TWF
17|150800| 4| 2| 4| 7| d8| 4| 10| 10| 4| 15| | |Small But Deadly
18|174600| 4| 2| 4| 8| d8| 4| 10| 11| 4| 16|6d6| Improved TWF|
19|199800| 4| 2| 4| 9| d8| 4| 11| 11| 5| 17| | | Greater TWF
20|226400| 4| 2| 4|10| d8| 4| 11| 12| 5| 18| | | Lethal Riposte[/HTML]
Craven would probably be better, seeing as you would need 4D6 extra sneak attack damage to come close to rivaling Craven at level 20, with Craven doing a solid 20 extra points of damage per sneak attack.
Still alive.
In terms of the psychic builds, I couldn't figure out a way, no matter how much I looked, to increase the 3d6 psychic touch damage. I found psychic feats but nothing directly fit with increasing the Ardent build, which I thought was a very creative build.
In terms of how I've gone about doing this character, I decided not to go the blade bravo and gnome whisper choice, for lack of better reason I didn't want to be like everyone else.
For deity, I really had a difficult time, obviously Garl Glittergold, but it didn't directly say he had worshippers of tiny people. My entire build, I wanted it to be based around the world of the tiny, and smaller than tiny. So that like in the movie Willow, there's this whole other world going on besides just what "the big people", are doing. Thus, I decided on Brandobaris, because well, this halfling is freaking humorful, and he seems to enjoy being small and stealthy, uh and enjoys odd shaped candles.
For my character I went Jermaline, why, well because it solved the tiny problems. That way no shrinkage was needed, it had high dex, etc. If anything I'll just buy a cursed belt for later to shrink me down a few sizes.
For my weapon, obviously swordbow, why, well ranged tiny fey shooting little arrows is amusing.
For secondary switch off, I picked spiked chain for early reach.
These will both be focused on crit range, deadly precision, and defending on the bow. So I can take away the bonus damage for defense to increase my ac.
With that being said, I added a flaw to my character to increase my feat count, in this case either sickley shaky or pathetic work.
For the physical build, I liked the idea of using dualist 1 *Int to ac*, Assassin 5 *3d5 sa, iud* <---though I haven't figured out how I'd roleplay assassin entrance yet. Swordsage 4 *wis to ac, dmg on strikes* Warblade 3 *int to ref, crits*, Swashbuckler 3 *int to dmg*, and finally rogue 3 *2d6 sneak*. ((Assuming no xp pen based on DM))
What troubles me with this build, primarily it has low hit points, and that Will save is troubling. What feats to pick exactly, well, this is a good question. If you go ranged sneak attack alternative melee, instead of the standard combat expertise, dodge, daring outlaw, do we go a different route instead?
The damage seems to be decent, and the ac there's no question it's more than enough. Let me hear thoughts and suggestions, this isn't meant as a bump I'm actually going to play this character.