I need a fair bit of help with a high-level gestalt. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

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#1 bahumat Oct 20, 2011 2:39:06	Alright, I'm relatively new to the Gestalt rules, and a campaign i'm interested in is running at ECL 30, with gestalt rules, all allowable books (including requestable homebrew). I have been informed that the campaign will require intelligent optimisation in order to survive, but 'invincible' builds won't be allowed. I would like some assistance with a mixed sort of build- a cavalier charger-type with all of the goodies for masses of damage on the charge on one side of the progression, and leadership and Epic leadership. The campaign revolves around defending the Prime plane from extra-planar invasions, so my plan is to bring an army of my own with me. I was also debating putting the Half-celestial template to use, taking paladin planar substitution at level 5 for a celestial mount, and making my army mostly celestials for fluff. It seemed nice at the time. A tentative build would be paladin 20/cavalier 10//half-celestial 4/Whatever else. At some point I'll be throwing Epic Hero 3 into the second progression, because I know that homebrew was approved and I like it a lot for the capstone effects. However, I know paladins aren't the greatest base class to build off, so any other suggestions for that side, and for any additional info, such as a good race (preferrably not a halfling, but I'll take it if it's the best optimisation), etc. Basically, keep within the relatively loose guidelines, and go nuts. I'm ok with spellcasting, not as ok with psionics unless people link me to the info I'll need to use it. I personally don't own every book, but I'm working getting the main 'good stuff' (TOB, Complete Warr, Complete Div, Complete Magic, etc). Thanks in advance for any help. I'd like to keep him relatively simple, and stack bonuses to make him a monstrous charger, with an army to tie up people and help him conquer places. The Big 16 1. What game system are you running (D&D, Call of Cthulu, Palladium, GURPS, etc.), and if applicable what edition (Original, Classic, Revised, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 10th, etc.)? D&D 3.5 2. What 'type' or variant of game will it be (i.e. "Shadow Chasers" or "Agents of Psi" for d20 Modern)? What is the setting for the game (eg. historic period, published or homebrewed campaign setting, alternate reality, modern world, etc.)? Epic gestalt, of a setting chosen by the players. 3. How many Players are you looking for? Will you be taking alternates, and if so, how many? Five players. If you disappear, you will be replaced by the next available member. 4. What's the gaming medium (OOTS, chat, e-mail etc.)? On the boards. 5. What is the characters' starting status (i.e. experience level)? ECL 30. 6. How much gold or other starting funds will the characters begin with? Standard WBL, 4,300,000 gp. No more than a quarter (1,075,000) spent on one item. I know, how unfair. 7. Are there any particular character classes, professions, orders, etc. that you want... or do not want? What are your rules on 'prestige' and/or homebrewed classes? You are the chosen few, be what you want, just make me interested in you. 8. What races, subraces, species, etc. are allowed for your game? Will you allow homebrewed races or species? 'Prestige' races or species? Any. Homebrew is allowed, but requires my approval. At any point before gametime, I may disallow something that I previously approved, though this will only occur in the event that my flawed human brain realizes some abuse. 9. By what method should Players generate their attributes/ability scores and Hit Points? 4d6b3, roll seven times, best six of seven. Max hp at 1st, average afterward. 10. Does your game use alignment? What are your restrictions, if so? Doesn't matter. You are killing all the armies, so your motivations should justify this, whether you're LG or CE. 11. Do you allow multi-classing, or have any particular rules in regards to it? No multiclassing rules are in effect. Multiclass to your hearts content. 12. Will you be doing all of the die rolling during the course of the game? Will die rolls be altered, or left to the honor system? If players can make die rolls, which ones do they make, how should they make the rolls, and how should they report them? All die rolls will be made in the open on the boards. I reserve the ability to, at any point, make rolls for you, only to be done in the case of needing reactions, saves or the like to speed along combat. 13. Are there any homebrewed or optional/variant rules that your Players should know about? If so, list and explain them, or provide relevant links to learn about these new rules. Gestalt of course. I figure 2 flaws and 1 trait. 14. Is a character background required? If so, how big? Are you looking for anything in particular (i.e. the backgrounds all ending up with the characters in the same city)? Explain who you are, and why you're fighting this battle. 15. Does your game involve a lot of hack & slash, puzzle solving, roleplaying, or a combination of the above? Roleplaying and hack and slash are a must, as you're dealing with planar entites. 16. Are your Players restricted to particular rulebooks and supplements, or will you be allowing access to non-standard material? What sources can Players use for their characters? Any sourcebook is fine, although I may ask for sources.
#2 draco1119 Oct 20, 2011 7:54:38	Alright, I'm relatively new to the Gestalt rules, and a campaign i'm interested in is running at ECL 30, with gestalt rules, all allowable books (including requestable homebrew). I have been informed that the campaign will require intelligent optimisation in order to survive, but 'invincible' builds won't be allowed. I would like some assistance with a mixed sort of build- a cavalier charger-type with all of the goodies for masses of damage on the charge on one side of the progression, and leadership and Epic leadership. The campaign revolves around defending the Prime plane from extra-planar invasions, so my plan is to bring an army of my own with me. I was also debating putting the Half-celestial template to use, taking paladin planar substitution at level 5 for a celestial mount, and making my army mostly celestials for fluff. It seemed nice at the time. A tentative build would be paladin 20/cavalier 10//half-celestial 4/Whatever else. At some point I'll be throwing Epic Hero 3 into the second progression, because I know that homebrew was approved and I like it a lot for the capstone effects. However, I know paladins aren't the greatest base class to build off, so any other suggestions for that side, and for any additional info, such as a good race (preferrably not a halfling, but I'll take it if it's the best optimisation), etc. Basically, keep within the relatively loose guidelines, and go nuts. I'm ok with spellcasting, not as ok with psionics unless people link me to the info I'll need to use it. I personally don't own every book, but I'm working getting the main 'good stuff' (TOB, Complete Warr, Complete Div, Complete Magic, etc). Thanks in advance for any help. I'd like to keep him relatively simple, and stack bonuses to make him a monstrous charger, with an army to tie up people and help him conquer places. Show The Big 16 1. What game system are you running (D&D, Call of Cthulu, Palladium, GURPS, etc.), and if applicable what edition (Original, Classic, Revised, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 10th, etc.)? D&D 3.5 2. What 'type' or variant of game will it be (i.e. "Shadow Chasers" or "Agents of Psi" for d20 Modern)? What is the setting for the game (eg. historic period, published or homebrewed campaign setting, alternate reality, modern world, etc.)? Epic gestalt, of a setting chosen by the players. 3. How many Players are you looking for? Will you be taking alternates, and if so, how many? Five players. If you disappear, you will be replaced by the next available member. 4. What's the gaming medium (OOTS, chat, e-mail etc.)? On the boards. 5. What is the characters' starting status (i.e. experience level)? ECL 30. 6. How much gold or other starting funds will the characters begin with? Standard WBL, 4,300,000 gp. No more than a quarter (1,075,000) spent on one item. I know, how unfair. 7. Are there any particular character classes, professions, orders, etc. that you want... or do not want? What are your rules on 'prestige' and/or homebrewed classes? You are the chosen few, be what you want, just make me interested in you. 8. What races, subraces, species, etc. are allowed for your game? Will you allow homebrewed races or species? 'Prestige' races or species? Any. Homebrew is allowed, but requires my approval. At any point before gametime, I may disallow something that I previously approved, though this will only occur in the event that my flawed human brain realizes some abuse. 9. By what method should Players generate their attributes/ability scores and Hit Points? 4d6b3, roll seven times, best six of seven. Max hp at 1st, average afterward. 10. Does your game use alignment? What are your restrictions, if so? Doesn't matter. You are killing all the armies, so your motivations should justify this, whether you're LG or CE. 11. Do you allow multi-classing, or have any particular rules in regards to it? No multiclassing rules are in effect. Multiclass to your hearts content. 12. Will you be doing all of the die rolling during the course of the game? Will die rolls be altered, or left to the honor system? If players can make die rolls, which ones do they make, how should they make the rolls, and how should they report them? All die rolls will be made in the open on the boards. I reserve the ability to, at any point, make rolls for you, only to be done in the case of needing reactions, saves or the like to speed along combat. 13. Are there any homebrewed or optional/variant rules that your Players should know about? If so, list and explain them, or provide relevant links to learn about these new rules. Gestalt of course. I figure 2 flaws and 1 trait. 14. Is a character background required? If so, how big? Are you looking for anything in particular (i.e. the backgrounds all ending up with the characters in the same city)? Explain who you are, and why you're fighting this battle. 15. Does your game involve a lot of hack & slash, puzzle solving, roleplaying, or a combination of the above? Roleplaying and hack and slash are a must, as you're dealing with planar entites. 16. Are your Players restricted to particular rulebooks and supplements, or will you be allowing access to non-standard material? What sources can Players use for their characters? Any sourcebook is fine, although I may ask for sources.
#3 bahumat Oct 20, 2011 8:30:27	Unfortunately, there's no LA buyoff. I'm thinking a +4 for a half-celestial to pump those stats a bit. Thoughts? Yeah, I know the Paladin's not as badass as a Crusader. I was looking into having an intelligent mount at the time. The overall idea was for a guy who leads his men into battle (large mounted group). Having some spellcasting is fine, as buffs are always nice to have, as well as a backup for "oh, I have to leave my mount behind?" Sweet jesus that War Hulk is nice. But I was under the impression that the Goliath and Half-Giant's Powerful Build doesn't count you as Large for the purpose of prerequisites? I pretty much want to be a mounted ubercharger- I don't expect to have to deal with having to dungeon crawl at ECL30. As I edited into the original (missed your post), I want to try out one of the GM's custom classes, the Commander of Isamukemen, a 10 level prestige focussed on giving boosts to nearby allies. Combined with the supercharger, it'll hopefully buff up followers enough that they don't immediately die :P Current idea (without any changes from what you added), Paladin20/Cavalier10//LA4/Knight13/Commander of Isamukemen10/EpicHero3, not necessarily in that order.
#4 draco1119 Oct 20, 2011 15:48:20	Unfortunately, there's no LA buyoff. I'm thinking a +4 for a half-celestial to pump those stats a bit. Thoughts? A +4 LA IS NOT WORTH IT. Any LA hits both "sides" of your build, so a +4 is going to cost 8 levels. I'd say a +2 is going to be the max you want to get hit with, and even that's pushing it. Yeah, I know the Paladin's not as badass as a Crusader. I was looking into having an intelligent mount at the time. If you use Wild Plains Outrider, you don't need a mount. :evil: The overall idea was for a guy who leads his men into battle (large mounted group). Having some spellcasting is fine, as buffs are always nice to have, as well as a backup for "oh, I have to leave my mount behind?" A Crusader or Warblade can do that far better than a Paladin can, due to access to the White Raven school of maneuvers. Sweet jesus that War Hulk is nice. But I was under the impression that the Goliath and Half-Giant's Powerful Build doesn't count you as Large for the purpose of prerequisites? Nope. Powerful build makes them count as Large "when it is advantageous for them" to be Large. I pretty much want to be a mounted ubercharger- I don't expect to have to deal with having to dungeon crawl at ECL30. You won't have to be mounted, but you can be if you want... As I edited into the original (missed your post), I want to try out one of the GM's custom classes, the Commander of Isamukemen, a 10 level prestige focussed on giving boosts to nearby allies. Combined with the supercharger, it'll hopefully buff up followers enough that they don't immediately die :P Unfamiliar with this one, but White Raven does the same thing. Current idea (without any changes from what you added), Paladin20/Cavalier10//LA4/Knight13/Commander of Isamukemen10/EpicHero3, not necessarily in that order. How's this: Using a Goliath or Half-Giant, on one "side" of the build, you've got Rogue3/Druid13/Daggerspell Shaper10/Epic Hero3 On the other "side", you get Crusader 17/Wild Plains Outrider 3/War Hulk 9
#5 bahumat Oct 20, 2011 18:45:09	Wild Plains Outrider! There was the class I've been trying to find! So, Locking in a Half-Giant, going to take War Hulk for uberstrength. Going to take Wild Plains Outrider for fun factor. While looking at the build, I see potential (and I'll be keeping it for another campaign, hehe), I'm going to steer away from a Wildshape build, since someone took 20 levels of shapechanger or some such nonsense. I could keep the crusader side intact...Martial Manouvers are always nice, so Crusader 17/Wild Plains Outrider 3/War Hulk 9 Maybe then go for the other side 6 paladin (For a celestial mount), 3 something (Probably the half-celestial if it gets approved by the GM), 10 cavalier, 10 Commander of Isamukem. In terms of feats, go the Cavalry Charger tree + Shock trooper tree, get leadership, get more manouvers, deal up to 6 or seven times damage on the charge with a valorous lance, plus all the strength goodness from the War Hulk. Use the warblade manouvers to give him something to do before and after the charge (So that he's not useless if he can't charge- thanks so much for pointing out the white raven, totally forgot them), or if someone manages to kill his celestial horse (Any pointers on how to make the mount less squishy appreciated). It ends up progressing to ECL 19. If I can get pounce as well, appreciated. I'll be taking the Divine Might at least for using my few turn attempts, which by the end will give a hefty damage spike on the charge thanks to the high Cha I need for leadership and Epic leadership. The reason I want leadership is the army, and because the GM has ruled that the cohort can be up to ECL 28, and gestalt as well. Meaning I can make another character to either a) Do the same thing, just a little worse. or b) Be the spellcaster that supports my supercharger. This however requires a leadership score of 46. should be doable with a +8 enhacement bonus, full inherent bonuses, the boost from epic hero's epic virtue (charisma). Math says....15+8+5+2 = 30 cha = +10 mod. 30(HD)+10(cha)+5(EpicVirtue) = 45, and I need 46. Guess I'll be putting two level up's into charisma then, unless I can increase an item's enhancement to 10 somehow. Also, the group might be doing LA only on one side, which will free up a level on one side if so (for the Half-Giant). I've found a couple of their builds, and that seems to be what they're doing. If so, probably take the last level in War Hulk for the +2 Strength again, and put the Half-giant adjustment on the Paladin side. Thoughts or improvements? Feats that are a "MUST HAVE"? Base stats? I'm currently looking at 14/12/14/9/10/15, boosting str/con and dropping dex due to race, then add boosts to Str, Con, Cha, Dex using magic/items, Boost Str as I level, boost Cha using Epic Virtue from Epic Hero and twice from level to hit Cha target, boost Str from War Hulk.
#6 draco1119 Oct 20, 2011 19:55:35	In terms of feats, go the Cavalry Charger tree + Shock trooper tree, get leadership, get more manouvers, deal up to 6 or seven times damage on the charge with a valorous lance, plus all the strength goodness from the War Hulk. Use the warblade manouvers to give him something to do before and after the charge (So that he's not useless if he can't charge- thanks so much for pointing out the white raven, totally forgot them), or if someone manages to kill his celestial horse (Any pointers on how to make the mount less squishy appreciated). It ends up progressing to ECL 19. If I can get pounce as well, appreciated. I'll be taking the Divine Might at least for using my few turn attempts, which by the end will give a hefty damage spike on the charge thanks to the high Cha I need for leadership and Epic leadership. Use either a pally/warblade base combo or a Crusader/cleric. Crusader and paladin have enough overlap that it's not really worth getting both. If you go crusader/cleric, be sure to take the feat Martial Stance so you can get that uber-awesome 8th-level Devoted Spirit stance. It's the only way you'll be able to do it with your current build, unfortunately. If your planning on having a decent Dex, Combat Reflexes is great. And WPO gives you pounce... sort of. You can make a full attack as long as your mount makes only a single move. If you use the warblade/pally combo, there are Tiger Claw (IIRC) maneuvers and/or stances that give you pounce. Just looked at Epic Hero. Make sure you take its first level at or before level 20. If you take it in epic levels, you lose the good saves. The abilities you should take (IMO) are Epic Charisma, Epic Tactician, and either Epic Warrior or Epic Weapon Mastery.
#7 bahumat Oct 20, 2011 21:05:52	Derp. Meant to write warblade. I was hoping to pounce-charge, since the cavalier and lance based attacks only do their massive damage on the charge. Having a pseudo-charge is nice if I don't have the line of movement for a proper charge though. Huh. i never saw pouncing charge, and it's right there in the TOB book....sweeeeet. Going to go the warblade route for that I think. So 17 levels of warblade instead of crusader, take the thee levels of Epic Hero right afterwards (for maximum saves). Those were the three abilities I was thinking of- we must be on a similiar wavelength or something :P I think epic Warrior over Epic Weapon mastery- ignoring DR and other stuff is nice, but requires me to go into another feat tree. If a lance charge hits, I should break pretty much anyone's DR anyway. Which Manouver would you suggest? Since there appears to be no limits, it can be from any manouver. I'm tempted by stuff like Time Stands Still, but it's probably better to stick with something more in theme...Maybe the Iron Heart 'Strike of Perfect Clarity'? For a stupid first charge? I like the white raven skills, so I'll probably be working through them to get War Master's Charge as my 9th level manouver. Dip into Tiger claw for Pouncing Charge. Anything else of note that I should pick up? Edit: Forgot that I still needed to slot Wild Planes Outrider in somewhere. Commander of Isamukemen lost three levels for it. Warblade17/Epic Hero3/War Hulk10//Half-Giant1/Paladin 6/Half-celestial3/Cavalier10/Wild Plains Outrider3/Commander of Isamukemen7
#8 draco1119 Oct 20, 2011 21:23:37	Derp. Meant to write warblade. I was hoping to pounce-charge, since the cavalier and lance based attacks only do their massive damage on the charge. Having a pseudo-charge is nice if I don't have the line of movement for a proper charge though. Huh. i never saw pouncing charge, and it's right there in the TOB book....sweeeeet. Going to go the warblade route for that I think. So 17 levels of warblade instead of crusader, take the thee levels of Epic Hero right afterwards (for maximum saves). Those were the three abilities I was thinking of- we must be on a similiar wavelength or something :P Warblade gives you far more than one maneuver, plus you can change them out easily. If you use Combat Reflexes, and only if you use Combat Reflexes, check out Stormguard's Glare. It's the Iron Heart tactical feat in ToB. I think you're going to want to concentrate on the Iron Heart, Tiger Claw, and White Raven disciplines for your maneuvers, though there is a high level (8th, I think) Diamond Mind maneuver with no prereqs. IIRC, it gives you a bonus to saves.
#9 draco1119 Oct 20, 2011 21:30:48	Um... Do you have enough feats to get into all of these PrCs? Because these are all looking like they take different feats for qualification, and you're only getting the base feats every 3 levels (and that's on both "sides", so think of it as every 6 instead) plus a few bonus feats from Warblade.
#10 bahumat Oct 20, 2011 22:13:38	Flaws + boots of riding give 3 extra. I'm hoping it works out :P Requrements by Class: Paladin and Warblade- none. War Hulk- cleave (therefore, power attack) Epic Hero: none. Half-celestial- celestial ancestor option (cheesy and easy) Cavalier: Weapon Focus (lance), Mounted Combat, Ride-By-Attack, Spirited Charge. Wild Plains Outrider: Mounted Combat, Mounted archery. CoI: Acolyte of the Archangels (Isamukemen), Words of Creation Grand total of 9 feats as prereqs. Yeah, it's a lot. But boots of riding gets rid of ride-by attack, and a battle bridle removes mounted combat. 7 feats isn't that hard to do. I'll try and put it together soon, see whether I can get it working.
#11 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 20, 2011 22:44:04	Just so you know, as soon as you take your first level of War Hulk, you lose access to Cavalier and Commander of [exceedingly long homebrew name]. Cavalier requires Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), CoI requires Diplomacy, Knowledge (Religion), and Perform (Oratory). War Hulk has that lovely and often-forgotten ability, No Time To Think, which says "A character with levels in the War Hulk prestige class is considered to have 0 ranks in all Intelligence-, Wisdom-, and Charisma-based skills (whether nor not he has bought ranks in them previously). The only exception is the Intimidate skill, which works normally." All of the skill requirements I mentioned above are Intelligence-based or Charisma-based skills, so your first level war hulk is treated as having 0 ranks in them, and thus loses access to Cavalier and CoI. The best way I've seen to get around this involved a loosely lenient DM who opens War Hulk to Goliaths with Mountain Rage (during a rage, they get an extra +2 Strength and trade Powerful Build for actual Large size); most of the skills you lose in a rage are the same ones you lose thanks to No Time To Think, and when your rage is over you're Medium and no longer qualify for War Hulk. This is not optimal due to War Hulk's amazing 0 base attack progression, but might be useful if you're Gestalting your way to The Hulk or something. If you'd rather get Pounce some other way, here's a quick list. Show The Grand Compilation of Full-Attack Charging PC Tricks (by approximate level of availability; a few books are probably missing) NO TEMPLATES ARE LISTED HERE. Also, certain abilities only work in the first round of combat. Others work any time they are used. 1) Totem barbarian: Lion (Barbarian substitutution level, trades Fast Movement and a few other things, ideal for dipping. Complete Champion.) 1) Snow Tiger Berserker feat (berserker lodge feat (RP restriction), light weapons only, Unapproachable East) 1) Lion Tribe Warrior (Regional feat, human only, single light weapon only, Shining South) 2) Catfolk Pounce feat (Racial feat: Catfolk, Races of the Wild. Available at character level 1, but listed at level 2 because of Catfolk's +1 LA) 4) Psionic Lion's Charge (2nd level psywar power, augments to add damage to each attack, Expanded Psionic's Handbook) 5) Lion's Charge (3rd level druid / 4th level ranger spell, most recent version Spell Compendium, the level changed but I can't reference it now) 5) Wild Shape (Fleshraker, Monster Manual III) 5) Sphinx Claws soulmeld, bound to hands chakra (Magic of Incarnum; limited to natural weapons only) 6) Lion's Pounce Wild Feat (Complete Divine) 7) Polymorph spell (many forms grant Pounce or similar abilities) 7) Metamorphosis power (as Polymorph, but might require Supernatural Transformation) 8) Wild Shape (Tiger) (If Core-only.) 8) Weretouched II: Tiger (Weretouched Master prestige class ability, Shifter only and only while shifting, Eberron CS) 9) Pouncing Charge Tiger Claw maneuver (Tome of Battle) 10) Pouncing Ambush (5th level Reachrunner prestige class ability, Shifter only and only while shifting, against flat-footed opponent only, Races of Eberron) 11) Lion's Pounce (4th level Sigh Rager prestige class ability, Oriental Adventures) 11) Lion's Pounce (5th level Lion of Talisid prestige class ability, Book of Exalted Deeds) 11) Primal Scream: Pounce (6th level Wildrunner prestige class ability, Races of the Wild 12) Chupoclops vestige (Tome of Magic) 13) Drift 4: Pounce like a leopard (7th level Geomancer drift, Complete Divine) 17) Shapechange spell (many forms grant Pounce or an extra move action, or something sicker (Chronotryn (FF), Choker).) 17) Greater Metamorphosis power (As Shapechange, but may require Metamorphic Transfer feat) 21) Dire Charge epic feat (Widely accepted as at least slightly underpowered, but works regardless of your equipment or magic availability. Draconomicon) Variable level: Claws of the Leopard (spiked gauntlets, Complete Adventurer, priced at 38,305. Only works with the claws themselves). Note that the Great Granddaddy of Wild Shape, the Mulhorandi Divine Minion, may be able to pull off some of these far earlier than other characters. With sufficient cheatery twinks, anything is possible. Runner-ups (those with similar abilities that do not exactly count as charging): Full Mounted Attack (Cavalier and Halfling Outrider, CW; Kishi Charger, OA; Waverider, Savage Species; Ashworm Dragoon, Sandstorm; possibly others) Dervish Dance (Dervish, CW) Hustle (Psychic Warrior / Egoist power, XPH) Wild Plains Offensive (Wild Plains Outrider, CV) Shadow Pounce (Teflammar Shadowlord, UE / Crinti Shadow Marauder, Shining South) Lion Tribe Warrior (Regional feat, two light weapons only, Shining South) Two-Weapon Spring Attack (Tempest, CV) Dimension Spring Attack (Elocator, XPH) Black Magic Oil: Malign Fury (Warrior of Darkness, BoVD) Orien's Fury (Blade of Orien, Dragonmarked)
#12 Maat_Mons Oct 20, 2011 23:21:31	If giving bonuses to your followers is a priority, a bard could give everyone within 100 feet +18 to hit and +18d6+18 damage (or thereabout) at this level.
#13 bahumat Oct 21, 2011 4:00:23	Just so you know, as soon as you take your first level of War Hulk, you lose access to Cavalier and Commander of [exceedingly long homebrew name]. Cavalier requires Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), CoI requires Diplomacy, Knowledge (Religion), and Perform (Oratory). War Hulk has that lovely and often-forgotten ability, No Time To Think, which says "A character with levels in the War Hulk prestige class is considered to have 0 ranks in all Intelligence-, Wisdom-, and Charisma-based skills (whether nor not he has bought ranks in them previously). The only exception is the Intimidate skill, which works normally." All of the skill requirements I mentioned above are Intelligence-based or Charisma-based skills, so your first level war hulk is treated as having 0 ranks in them, and thus loses access to Cavalier and CoI. The best way I've seen to get around this involved a loosely lenient DM who opens War Hulk to Goliaths with Mountain Rage (during a rage, they get an extra +2 Strength and trade Powerful Build for actual Large size); most of the skills you lose in a rage are the same ones you lose thanks to No Time To Think, and when your rage is over you're Medium and no longer qualify for War Hulk. This is not optimal due to War Hulk's amazing 0 base attack progression, but might be useful if you're Gestalting your way to The Hulk or something. If you'd rather get Pounce some other way, here's a quick list. Show The Grand Compilation of Full-Attack Charging PC Tricks (by approximate level of availability; a few books are probably missing) NO TEMPLATES ARE LISTED HERE. Also, certain abilities only work in the first round of combat. Others work any time they are used. 1) Totem barbarian: Lion (Barbarian substitutution level, trades Fast Movement and a few other things, ideal for dipping. Complete Champion.) 1) Snow Tiger Berserker feat (berserker lodge feat (RP restriction), light weapons only, Unapproachable East) 1) Lion Tribe Warrior (Regional feat, human only, single light weapon only, Shining South) 2) Catfolk Pounce feat (Racial feat: Catfolk, Races of the Wild. Available at character level 1, but listed at level 2 because of Catfolk's +1 LA) 4) Psionic Lion's Charge (2nd level psywar power, augments to add damage to each attack, Expanded Psionic's Handbook) 5) Lion's Charge (3rd level druid / 4th level ranger spell, most recent version Spell Compendium, the level changed but I can't reference it now) 5) Wild Shape (Fleshraker, Monster Manual III) 5) Sphinx Claws soulmeld, bound to hands chakra (Magic of Incarnum; limited to natural weapons only) 6) Lion's Pounce Wild Feat (Complete Divine) 7) Polymorph spell (many forms grant Pounce or similar abilities) 7) Metamorphosis power (as Polymorph, but might require Supernatural Transformation) 8) Wild Shape (Tiger) (If Core-only.) 8) Weretouched II: Tiger (Weretouched Master prestige class ability, Shifter only and only while shifting, Eberron CS) 9) Pouncing Charge Tiger Claw maneuver (Tome of Battle) 10) Pouncing Ambush (5th level Reachrunner prestige class ability, Shifter only and only while shifting, against flat-footed opponent only, Races of Eberron) 11) Lion's Pounce (4th level Sigh Rager prestige class ability, Oriental Adventures) 11) Lion's Pounce (5th level Lion of Talisid prestige class ability, Book of Exalted Deeds) 11) Primal Scream: Pounce (6th level Wildrunner prestige class ability, Races of the Wild 12) Chupoclops vestige (Tome of Magic) 13) Drift 4: Pounce like a leopard (7th level Geomancer drift, Complete Divine) 17) Shapechange spell (many forms grant Pounce or an extra move action, or something sicker (Chronotryn (FF), Choker).) 17) Greater Metamorphosis power (As Shapechange, but may require Metamorphic Transfer feat) 21) Dire Charge epic feat (Widely accepted as at least slightly underpowered, but works regardless of your equipment or magic availability. Draconomicon) Variable level: Claws of the Leopard (spiked gauntlets, Complete Adventurer, priced at 38,305. Only works with the claws themselves). Note that the Great Granddaddy of Wild Shape, the Mulhorandi Divine Minion, may be able to pull off some of these far earlier than other characters. With sufficient cheatery twinks, anything is possible. Runner-ups (those with similar abilities that do not exactly count as charging): Full Mounted Attack (Cavalier and Halfling Outrider, CW; Kishi Charger, OA; Waverider, Savage Species; Ashworm Dragoon, Sandstorm; possibly others) Dervish Dance (Dervish, CW) Hustle (Psychic Warrior / Egoist power, XPH) Wild Plains Offensive (Wild Plains Outrider, CV) Shadow Pounce (Teflammar Shadowlord, UE / Crinti Shadow Marauder, Shining South) Lion Tribe Warrior (Regional feat, two light weapons only, Shining South) Two-Weapon Spring Attack (Tempest, CV) Dimension Spring Attack (Elocator, XPH) Black Magic Oil: Malign Fury (Warrior of Darkness, BoVD) Orien's Fury (Blade of Orien, Dragonmarked)
#14 Maat_Mons Oct 21, 2011 14:05:52	Here are some item I think could be pretty handy: Cowl of warding: continuous mind blank and freedom of movement, 200,800 gp, Magic of Faerun p156 Displacement armor: 50% miss chance, +100,000 gp special ability, Oriental Adventures p122 Energy immunity buckler: immunity to one energy type for one minute as immediate action once per day, +2 special ability, Magic Item Compendium 11 Gemstone of fortification (heavy): immunity to critical hits and sneak attack, 35,000 gp + limited wish, Draconomicon 83 Hathran mask of true seeing: continuous true seeing, 75,000 gp, Unapproachable East p57 Proof against transmutation armor: immunity to transmutation effects that alter form, +5 special ability, Complete Mage p142 Ring of negative protection: immunity to negative levels, 36,000 gp, Magic Item Compendium p126 Soulfire armor: immunity to death effects, energy drain, and negative energy effects, +4 special ability, Book of Exalted Deeds p112
#15 bahumat Oct 21, 2011 20:06:23	Wow, those are some nice items I never knew about. Not certain how useful some of it is at epic (how many death affects does one run into anyway), but I'll probably pick them up anyway. Other items I've got- Tome/Manuals of +5, various equipments of +8, boots of combined fun (Steadfast Riding Boots of Speed, Striding, Teleportation and theBattle Charger), yes, the gm lets us stack fun effects so feel free to mention multiples of the same slot if you like the effects, Gauntlets of Weapons Arcane, War and the Master Strategist, and a couple of incidentals. Cowl of Warding is in, that frees up some ring space and gives me mind blank, the most important thing ever. How about weapons? I know the lance is going to be Valorous (Unapproachable East) for the extra charge multiplier, but what else should I put on it, if any? And what should I put on the relevant backup weapon/what should it be (a martial weapon preferrable, so as not to tie up a feat)? A sword gets a small boost from cavalier (+3 Competence), while mounted, but that's a minor issue since I'd likely use a lance from horseback unless it gets sundered. I'm also thinking of making them Bane weapons, splitting them into a Bane lawful/chaotic outsider pair, or a Good/evil outsider pair (One weapon gets either), in addition to any other useful weapon enchantments. Any other thoughts on what to throw in those extra 5 levels? Improving my mount's probably a good idea somehow. I could make my celestial mount my cohort thanks to leadership if I take the paladin levels at the right time. Then I could make it a non-horse/pegasus, and possibly give it some class levels.
#16 draco1119 Oct 21, 2011 21:32:12	How about a Dragon Rider? This thread might have some useful suggestions and/or ideas for you.
#17 bahumat Oct 22, 2011 8:14:50	I did have a look at that. I'm certainly interested in the dips into Cloistered cleric, Ordained Champion and Prestige paladin as opposed to my 6 paladin. Saves a level, and gets domain feats...Still, I originally wanted to steer away from the halfling route. I guess I might have to to make my mount useful though...or I can drop the special mount, take less paladin and just make him as killy on the charge as possible. There's pros and cons to both. Pro to my one is that I get to keep cavalier AND CoI. Pro to supermount is, well, supermount.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

bahumat

Oct 20, 2011 2:39:06

Alright, I'm relatively new to the Gestalt rules, and a campaign i'm interested in is running at ECL 30, with gestalt rules, all allowable books (including requestable homebrew). I have been informed that the campaign will require intelligent optimisation in order to survive, but 'invincible' builds won't be allowed.

I would like some assistance with a mixed sort of build- a cavalier charger-type with all of the goodies for masses of damage on the charge on one side of the progression, and leadership and Epic leadership. The campaign revolves around defending the Prime plane from extra-planar invasions, so my plan is to bring an army of my own with me. I was also debating putting the Half-celestial template to use, taking paladin planar substitution at level 5 for a celestial mount, and making my army mostly celestials for fluff.

It seemed nice at the time.

A tentative build would be paladin 20/cavalier 10//half-celestial 4/Whatever else. At some point I'll be throwing Epic Hero 3 into the second progression, because I know that homebrew was approved and I like it a lot for the capstone effects.

However, I know paladins aren't the greatest base class to build off, so any other suggestions for that side, and for any additional info, such as a good race (preferrably not a halfling, but I'll take it if it's the best optimisation), etc. Basically, keep within the relatively loose guidelines, and go nuts. I'm ok with spellcasting, not as ok with psionics unless people link me to the info I'll need to use it.

I personally don't own every book, but I'm working getting the main 'good stuff' (TOB, Complete Warr, Complete Div, Complete Magic, etc).

Thanks in advance for any help. I'd like to keep him relatively simple, and stack bonuses to make him a monstrous charger, with an army to tie up people and help him conquer places.

The Big 16

1. What game system are you running (D&D, Call of Cthulu, Palladium, GURPS, etc.), and if applicable what edition (Original, Classic, Revised, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 10th, etc.)?

D&D 3.5

2. What 'type' or variant of game will it be (i.e. "Shadow Chasers" or "Agents of Psi" for d20 Modern)? What is the setting for the game (eg. historic period, published or homebrewed campaign setting, alternate reality, modern world, etc.)?

Epic gestalt, of a setting chosen by the players.

3. How many Players are you looking for? Will you be taking alternates, and if so, how many?

Five players. If you disappear, you will be replaced by the next available member.

4. What's the gaming medium (OOTS, chat, e-mail etc.)?

On the boards.

5. What is the characters' starting status (i.e. experience level)?

ECL 30.

6. How much gold or other starting funds will the characters begin with?

Standard WBL, 4,300,000 gp. No more than a quarter (1,075,000) spent on one item. I know, how unfair.

7. Are there any particular character classes, professions, orders, etc. that you want... or do not want? What are your rules on 'prestige' and/or homebrewed classes?

You are the chosen few, be what you want, just make me interested in you.

8. What races, subraces, species, etc. are allowed for your game? Will you allow homebrewed races or species? 'Prestige' races or species?

Any. Homebrew is allowed, but requires my approval. At any point before gametime, I may disallow something that I previously approved, though this will only occur in the event that my flawed human brain realizes some abuse.

9. By what method should Players generate their attributes/ability scores and Hit Points?

4d6b3, roll seven times, best six of seven. Max hp at 1st, average afterward.

10. Does your game use alignment? What are your restrictions, if so?

Doesn't matter. You are killing all the armies, so your motivations should justify this, whether you're LG or CE.

11. Do you allow multi-classing, or have any particular rules in regards to it?

No multiclassing rules are in effect. Multiclass to your hearts content.

12. Will you be doing all of the die rolling during the course of the game? Will die rolls be altered, or left to the honor system? If players can make die rolls, which ones do they make, how should they make the rolls, and how should they report them?

All die rolls will be made in the open on the boards. I reserve the ability to, at any point, make rolls for you, only to be done in the case of needing reactions, saves or the like to speed along combat.

13. Are there any homebrewed or optional/variant rules that your Players should know about? If so, list and explain them, or provide relevant links to learn about these new rules.

Gestalt of course. I figure 2 flaws and 1 trait.

14. Is a character background required? If so, how big? Are you looking for anything in particular (i.e. the backgrounds all ending up with the characters in the same city)?

Explain who you are, and why you're fighting this battle.

15. Does your game involve a lot of hack & slash, puzzle solving, roleplaying, or a combination of the above?

Roleplaying and hack and slash are a must, as you're dealing with planar entites.

16. Are your Players restricted to particular rulebooks and supplements, or will you be allowing access to non-standard material? What sources can Players use for their characters?

Any sourcebook is fine, although I may ask for sources.

draco1119

Oct 20, 2011 7:54:38

Alright, I'm relatively new to the Gestalt rules, and a campaign i'm interested in is running at ECL 30, with gestalt rules, all allowable books (including requestable homebrew). I have been informed that the campaign will require intelligent optimisation in order to survive, but 'invincible' builds won't be allowed.

I would like some assistance with a mixed sort of build- a cavalier charger-type with all of the goodies for masses of damage on the charge on one side of the progression, and leadership and Epic leadership. The campaign revolves around defending the Prime plane from extra-planar invasions, so my plan is to bring an army of my own with me. I was also debating putting the Half-celestial template to use, taking paladin planar substitution at level 5 for a celestial mount, and making my army mostly celestials for fluff.

It seemed nice at the time.

A tentative build would be paladin 20/cavalier 10//half-celestial 4/Whatever else. At some point I'll be throwing Epic Hero 3 into the second progression, because I know that homebrew was approved and I like it a lot for the capstone effects.

However, I know paladins aren't the greatest base class to build off, so any other suggestions for that side, and for any additional info, such as a good race (preferrably not a halfling, but I'll take it if it's the best optimisation), etc. Basically, keep within the relatively loose guidelines, and go nuts. I'm ok with spellcasting, not as ok with psionics unless people link me to the info I'll need to use it.

I personally don't own every book, but I'm working getting the main 'good stuff' (TOB, Complete Warr, Complete Div, Complete Magic, etc).

Thanks in advance for any help. I'd like to keep him relatively simple, and stack bonuses to make him a monstrous charger, with an army to tie up people and help him conquer places.
Show
The Big 16

1. What game system are you running (D&D, Call of Cthulu, Palladium, GURPS, etc.), and if applicable what edition (Original, Classic, Revised, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 10th, etc.)?

D&D 3.5

2. What 'type' or variant of game will it be (i.e. "Shadow Chasers" or "Agents of Psi" for d20 Modern)? What is the setting for the game (eg. historic period, published or homebrewed campaign setting, alternate reality, modern world, etc.)?

Epic gestalt, of a setting chosen by the players.

3. How many Players are you looking for? Will you be taking alternates, and if so, how many?

Five players. If you disappear, you will be replaced by the next available member.

4. What's the gaming medium (OOTS, chat, e-mail etc.)?

On the boards.

5. What is the characters' starting status (i.e. experience level)?

ECL 30.

6. How much gold or other starting funds will the characters begin with?

Standard WBL, 4,300,000 gp. No more than a quarter (1,075,000) spent on one item. I know, how unfair.

7. Are there any particular character classes, professions, orders, etc. that you want... or do not want? What are your rules on 'prestige' and/or homebrewed classes?

You are the chosen few, be what you want, just make me interested in you.

8. What races, subraces, species, etc. are allowed for your game? Will you allow homebrewed races or species? 'Prestige' races or species?

Any. Homebrew is allowed, but requires my approval. At any point before gametime, I may disallow something that I previously approved, though this will only occur in the event that my flawed human brain realizes some abuse.

9. By what method should Players generate their attributes/ability scores and Hit Points?

4d6b3, roll seven times, best six of seven. Max hp at 1st, average afterward.

10. Does your game use alignment? What are your restrictions, if so?

Doesn't matter. You are killing all the armies, so your motivations should justify this, whether you're LG or CE.

11. Do you allow multi-classing, or have any particular rules in regards to it?

No multiclassing rules are in effect. Multiclass to your hearts content.

12. Will you be doing all of the die rolling during the course of the game? Will die rolls be altered, or left to the honor system? If players can make die rolls, which ones do they make, how should they make the rolls, and how should they report them?

All die rolls will be made in the open on the boards. I reserve the ability to, at any point, make rolls for you, only to be done in the case of needing reactions, saves or the like to speed along combat.

13. Are there any homebrewed or optional/variant rules that your Players should know about? If so, list and explain them, or provide relevant links to learn about these new rules.

Gestalt of course. I figure 2 flaws and 1 trait.

14. Is a character background required? If so, how big? Are you looking for anything in particular (i.e. the backgrounds all ending up with the characters in the same city)?

Explain who you are, and why you're fighting this battle.

15. Does your game involve a lot of hack & slash, puzzle solving, roleplaying, or a combination of the above?

Roleplaying and hack and slash are a must, as you're dealing with planar entites.

16. Are your Players restricted to particular rulebooks and supplements, or will you be allowing access to non-standard material? What sources can Players use for their characters?

Any sourcebook is fine, although I may ask for sources.

bahumat

Oct 20, 2011 8:30:27

Unfortunately, there's no LA buyoff. I'm thinking a +4 for a half-celestial to pump those stats a bit. Thoughts?

Yeah, I know the Paladin's not as badass as a Crusader. I was looking into having an intelligent mount at the time.

The overall idea was for a guy who leads his men into battle (large mounted group). Having some spellcasting is fine, as buffs are always nice to have, as well as a backup for "oh, I have to leave my mount behind?"

Sweet jesus that War Hulk is nice. But I was under the impression that the Goliath and Half-Giant's Powerful Build doesn't count you as Large for the purpose of prerequisites?

I pretty much want to be a mounted ubercharger- I don't expect to have to deal with having to dungeon crawl at ECL30.

As I edited into the original (missed your post), I want to try out one of the GM's custom classes, the Commander of Isamukemen, a 10 level prestige focussed on giving boosts to nearby allies. Combined with the supercharger, it'll hopefully buff up followers enough that they don't immediately die :P

Current idea (without any changes from what you added), Paladin20/Cavalier10//LA4/Knight13/Commander of Isamukemen10/EpicHero3, not necessarily in that order.

draco1119

Oct 20, 2011 15:48:20

Unfortunately, there's no LA buyoff. I'm thinking a +4 for a half-celestial to pump those stats a bit. Thoughts?

A +4 LA IS NOT WORTH IT. Any LA hits both "sides" of your build, so a +4 is going to cost 8 levels. I'd say a +2 is going to be the max you want to get hit with, and even that's pushing it.

Yeah, I know the Paladin's not as badass as a Crusader. I was looking into having an intelligent mount at the time.

If you use Wild Plains Outrider, you don't need a mount. :evil:

The overall idea was for a guy who leads his men into battle (large mounted group). Having some spellcasting is fine, as buffs are always nice to have, as well as a backup for "oh, I have to leave my mount behind?"

A Crusader or Warblade can do that far better than a Paladin can, due to access to the White Raven school of maneuvers.

Sweet jesus that War Hulk is nice. But I was under the impression that the Goliath and Half-Giant's Powerful Build doesn't count you as Large for the purpose of prerequisites?

Nope. Powerful build makes them count as Large "when it is advantageous for them" to be Large.

I pretty much want to be a mounted ubercharger- I don't expect to have to deal with having to dungeon crawl at ECL30.

You won't have to be mounted, but you can be if you want...

As I edited into the original (missed your post), I want to try out one of the GM's custom classes, the Commander of Isamukemen, a 10 level prestige focussed on giving boosts to nearby allies. Combined with the supercharger, it'll hopefully buff up followers enough that they don't immediately die :P

Unfamiliar with this one, but White Raven does the same thing.

Current idea (without any changes from what you added), Paladin20/Cavalier10//LA4/Knight13/Commander of Isamukemen10/EpicHero3, not necessarily in that order.

How's this: Using a Goliath or Half-Giant, on one "side" of the build, you've got Rogue3/Druid13/Daggerspell Shaper10/Epic Hero3
On the other "side", you get Crusader 17/Wild Plains Outrider 3/War Hulk 9

bahumat

Oct 20, 2011 18:45:09

Wild Plains Outrider! There was the class I've been trying to find!

So, Locking in a Half-Giant, going to take War Hulk for uberstrength. Going to take Wild Plains Outrider for fun factor.

While looking at the build, I see potential (and I'll be keeping it for another campaign, hehe), I'm going to steer away from a Wildshape build, since someone took 20 levels of shapechanger or some such nonsense.

I could keep the crusader side intact...Martial Manouvers are always nice, so Crusader 17/Wild Plains Outrider 3/War Hulk 9

Maybe then go for the other side 6 paladin (For a celestial mount), 3 something (Probably the half-celestial if it gets approved by the GM), 10 cavalier, 10 Commander of Isamukem.

In terms of feats, go the Cavalry Charger tree + Shock trooper tree, get leadership, get more manouvers, deal up to 6 or seven times damage on the charge with a valorous lance, plus all the strength goodness from the War Hulk. Use the warblade manouvers to give him something to do before and after the charge (So that he's not useless if he can't charge- thanks so much for pointing out the white raven, totally forgot them), or if someone manages to kill his celestial horse (Any pointers on how to make the mount less squishy appreciated). It ends up progressing to ECL 19. If I can get pounce as well, appreciated. I'll be taking the Divine Might at least for using my few turn attempts, which by the end will give a hefty damage spike on the charge thanks to the high Cha I need for leadership and Epic leadership.

The reason I want leadership is the army, and because the GM has ruled that the cohort can be up to ECL 28, and gestalt as well. Meaning I can make another character to either a) Do the same thing, just a little worse. or b) Be the spellcaster that supports my supercharger. This however requires a leadership score of 46.
should be doable with a +8 enhacement bonus, full inherent bonuses, the boost from epic hero's epic virtue (charisma).
Math says....15+8+5+2 = 30 cha = +10 mod. 30(HD)+10(cha)+5(EpicVirtue) = 45, and I need 46. Guess I'll be putting two level up's into charisma then, unless I can increase an item's enhancement to 10 somehow.

Also, the group might be doing LA only on one side, which will free up a level on one side if so (for the Half-Giant). I've found a couple of their builds, and that seems to be what they're doing. If so, probably take the last level in War Hulk for the +2 Strength again, and put the Half-giant adjustment on the Paladin side.

Thoughts or improvements? Feats that are a "MUST HAVE"?

Base stats? I'm currently looking at 14/12/14/9/10/15, boosting str/con and dropping dex due to race, then add boosts to Str, Con, Cha, Dex using magic/items, Boost Str as I level, boost Cha using Epic Virtue from Epic Hero and twice from level to hit Cha target, boost Str from War Hulk.

draco1119

Oct 20, 2011 19:55:35

In terms of feats, go the Cavalry Charger tree + Shock trooper tree, get leadership, get more manouvers, deal up to 6 or seven times damage on the charge with a valorous lance, plus all the strength goodness from the War Hulk. Use the warblade manouvers to give him something to do before and after the charge (So that he's not useless if he can't charge- thanks so much for pointing out the white raven, totally forgot them), or if someone manages to kill his celestial horse (Any pointers on how to make the mount less squishy appreciated). It ends up progressing to ECL 19. If I can get pounce as well, appreciated. I'll be taking the Divine Might at least for using my few turn attempts, which by the end will give a hefty damage spike on the charge thanks to the high Cha I need for leadership and Epic leadership.

Use either a pally/warblade base combo or a Crusader/cleric. Crusader and paladin have enough overlap that it's not really worth getting both. If you go crusader/cleric, be sure to take the feat Martial Stance so you can get that uber-awesome 8th-level Devoted Spirit stance. It's the only way you'll be able to do it with your current build, unfortunately. If your planning on having a decent Dex, Combat Reflexes is great.
And WPO gives you pounce... sort of. You can make a full attack as long as your mount makes only a single move. If you use the warblade/pally combo, there are Tiger Claw (IIRC) maneuvers and/or stances that give you pounce.
Just looked at Epic Hero. Make sure you take its first level at or before level 20. If you take it in epic levels, you lose the good saves. The abilities you should take (IMO) are Epic Charisma, Epic Tactician, and either Epic Warrior or Epic Weapon Mastery.

bahumat

Oct 20, 2011 21:05:52

Derp. Meant to write warblade.

I was hoping to pounce-charge, since the cavalier and lance based attacks only do their massive damage on the charge. Having a pseudo-charge is nice if I don't have the line of movement for a proper charge though.

Huh. i never saw pouncing charge, and it's right there in the TOB book....sweeeeet.

Going to go the warblade route for that I think.
So 17 levels of warblade instead of crusader, take the thee levels of Epic Hero right afterwards (for maximum saves). Those were the three abilities I was thinking of- we must be on a similiar wavelength or something :P

I think epic Warrior over Epic Weapon mastery- ignoring DR and other stuff is nice, but requires me to go into another feat tree. If a lance charge hits, I should break pretty much anyone's DR anyway. Which Manouver would you suggest? Since there appears to be no limits, it can be from any manouver. I'm tempted by stuff like Time Stands Still, but it's probably better to stick with something more in theme...Maybe the Iron Heart 'Strike of Perfect Clarity'? For a stupid first charge?

I like the white raven skills, so I'll probably be working through them to get War Master's Charge as my 9th level manouver. Dip into Tiger claw for Pouncing Charge. Anything else of note that I should pick up?

Edit: Forgot that I still needed to slot Wild Planes Outrider in somewhere. Commander of Isamukemen lost three levels for it.
Warblade17/Epic Hero3/War Hulk10//Half-Giant1/Paladin 6/Half-celestial3/Cavalier10/Wild Plains Outrider3/Commander of Isamukemen7

draco1119

Oct 20, 2011 21:23:37

Derp. Meant to write warblade.

I was hoping to pounce-charge, since the cavalier and lance based attacks only do their massive damage on the charge. Having a pseudo-charge is nice if I don't have the line of movement for a proper charge though.

Huh. i never saw pouncing charge, and it's right there in the TOB book....sweeeeet.

Going to go the warblade route for that I think.
So 17 levels of warblade instead of crusader, take the thee levels of Epic Hero right afterwards (for maximum saves). Those were the three abilities I was thinking of- we must be on a similiar wavelength or something :P

Warblade gives you far more than one maneuver, plus you can change them out easily. If you use Combat Reflexes, and only if you use Combat Reflexes, check out Stormguard's Glare. It's the Iron Heart tactical feat in ToB. I think you're going to want to concentrate on the Iron Heart, Tiger Claw, and White Raven disciplines for your maneuvers, though there is a high level (8th, I think) Diamond Mind maneuver with no prereqs. IIRC, it gives you a bonus to saves.

draco1119

Oct 20, 2011 21:30:48

Um... Do you have enough feats to get into all of these PrCs? Because these are all looking like they take different feats for qualification, and you're only getting the base feats every 3 levels (and that's on both "sides", so think of it as every 6 instead) plus a few bonus feats from Warblade.

#10

bahumat

Oct 20, 2011 22:13:38

Flaws + boots of riding give 3 extra. I'm hoping it works out :P

Requrements by Class:
Paladin and Warblade- none.

War Hulk- cleave (therefore, power attack)

Epic Hero: none.
Half-celestial- celestial ancestor option (cheesy and easy)
Cavalier: Weapon Focus (lance), Mounted Combat, Ride-By-Attack, Spirited Charge.
Wild Plains Outrider: Mounted Combat, Mounted archery.
CoI: Acolyte of the Archangels (Isamukemen), Words of Creation

Grand total of 9 feats as prereqs. Yeah, it's a lot. But boots of riding gets rid of ride-by attack, and a battle bridle removes mounted combat. 7 feats isn't that hard to do.

I'll try and put it together soon, see whether I can get it working.

#11

Tempest_Stormwind

Oct 20, 2011 22:44:04

Just so you know, as soon as you take your first level of War Hulk, you lose access to Cavalier and Commander of [exceedingly long homebrew name]. Cavalier requires Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), CoI requires Diplomacy, Knowledge (Religion), and Perform (Oratory). War Hulk has that lovely and often-forgotten ability, No Time To Think, which says "A character with levels in the War Hulk prestige class is considered to have 0 ranks in all Intelligence-, Wisdom-, and Charisma-based skills (whether nor not he has bought ranks in them previously). The only exception is the Intimidate skill, which works normally." All of the skill requirements I mentioned above are Intelligence-based or Charisma-based skills, so your first level war hulk is treated as having 0 ranks in them, and thus loses access to Cavalier and CoI.

The best way I've seen to get around this involved a loosely lenient DM who opens War Hulk to Goliaths with Mountain Rage (during a rage, they get an extra +2 Strength and trade Powerful Build for actual Large size); most of the skills you lose in a rage are the same ones you lose thanks to No Time To Think, and when your rage is over you're Medium and no longer qualify for War Hulk. This is not optimal due to War Hulk's amazing 0 base attack progression, but might be useful if you're Gestalting your way to The Hulk or something.

If you'd rather get Pounce some other way, here's a quick list.

Show

The Grand Compilation of Full-Attack Charging PC Tricks
(by approximate level of availability; a few books are probably missing)

NO TEMPLATES ARE LISTED HERE.

Also, certain abilities only work in the first round of combat. Others work any time they are used.

1) Totem barbarian: Lion (Barbarian substitutution level, trades Fast Movement and a few other things, ideal for dipping. Complete Champion.)
1) Snow Tiger Berserker feat (berserker lodge feat (RP restriction), light weapons only, Unapproachable East)
1) Lion Tribe Warrior (Regional feat, human only, single light weapon only, Shining South)
2) Catfolk Pounce feat (Racial feat: Catfolk, Races of the Wild. Available at character level 1, but listed at level 2 because of Catfolk's +1 LA)
4) Psionic Lion's Charge (2nd level psywar power, augments to add damage to each attack, Expanded Psionic's Handbook)
5) Lion's Charge (3rd level druid / 4th level ranger spell, most recent version Spell Compendium, the level changed but I can't reference it now)
5) Wild Shape (Fleshraker, Monster Manual III)
5) Sphinx Claws soulmeld, bound to hands chakra (Magic of Incarnum; limited to natural weapons only)
6) Lion's Pounce Wild Feat (Complete Divine)
7) Polymorph spell (many forms grant Pounce or similar abilities)
7) Metamorphosis power (as Polymorph, but might require Supernatural Transformation)
8) Wild Shape (Tiger) (If Core-only.)
8) Weretouched II: Tiger (Weretouched Master prestige class ability, Shifter only and only while shifting, Eberron CS)
9) Pouncing Charge Tiger Claw maneuver (Tome of Battle)
10) Pouncing Ambush (5th level Reachrunner prestige class ability, Shifter only and only while shifting, against flat-footed opponent only, Races of Eberron)
11) Lion's Pounce (4th level Sigh Rager prestige class ability, Oriental Adventures)
11) Lion's Pounce (5th level Lion of Talisid prestige class ability, Book of Exalted Deeds)
11) Primal Scream: Pounce (6th level Wildrunner prestige class ability, Races of the Wild
12) Chupoclops vestige (Tome of Magic)
13) Drift 4: Pounce like a leopard (7th level Geomancer drift, Complete Divine)
17) Shapechange spell (many forms grant Pounce or an extra move action, or something sicker (Chronotryn (FF), Choker).)
17) Greater Metamorphosis power (As Shapechange, but may require Metamorphic Transfer feat)
21) Dire Charge epic feat (Widely accepted as at least slightly underpowered, but works regardless of your equipment or magic availability. Draconomicon)

Variable level: Claws of the Leopard (spiked gauntlets, Complete Adventurer, priced at 38,305. Only works with the claws themselves).

Note that the Great Granddaddy of Wild Shape, the Mulhorandi Divine Minion, may be able to pull off some of these far earlier than other characters.

With sufficient cheatery twinks, anything is possible.

Runner-ups (those with similar abilities that do not exactly count as charging):
Full Mounted Attack (Cavalier and Halfling Outrider, CW; Kishi Charger, OA; Waverider, Savage Species; Ashworm Dragoon, Sandstorm; possibly others)
Dervish Dance (Dervish, CW)
Hustle (Psychic Warrior / Egoist power, XPH)
Wild Plains Offensive (Wild Plains Outrider, CV)
Shadow Pounce (Teflammar Shadowlord, UE / Crinti Shadow Marauder, Shining South)
Lion Tribe Warrior (Regional feat, two light weapons only, Shining South)
Two-Weapon Spring Attack (Tempest, CV)
Dimension Spring Attack (Elocator, XPH)
Black Magic Oil: Malign Fury (Warrior of Darkness, BoVD)
Orien's Fury (Blade of Orien, Dragonmarked)

#12

Maat_Mons

Oct 20, 2011 23:21:31

If giving bonuses to your followers is a priority, a bard could give everyone within 100 feet +18 to hit and +18d6+18 damage (or thereabout) at this level.

#13

bahumat

Oct 21, 2011 4:00:23

Just so you know, as soon as you take your first level of War Hulk, you lose access to Cavalier and Commander of [exceedingly long homebrew name]. Cavalier requires Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), CoI requires Diplomacy, Knowledge (Religion), and Perform (Oratory). War Hulk has that lovely and often-forgotten ability, No Time To Think, which says "A character with levels in the War Hulk prestige class is considered to have 0 ranks in all Intelligence-, Wisdom-, and Charisma-based skills (whether nor not he has bought ranks in them previously). The only exception is the Intimidate skill, which works normally." All of the skill requirements I mentioned above are Intelligence-based or Charisma-based skills, so your first level war hulk is treated as having 0 ranks in them, and thus loses access to Cavalier and CoI.

The best way I've seen to get around this involved a loosely lenient DM who opens War Hulk to Goliaths with Mountain Rage (during a rage, they get an extra +2 Strength and trade Powerful Build for actual Large size); most of the skills you lose in a rage are the same ones you lose thanks to No Time To Think, and when your rage is over you're Medium and no longer qualify for War Hulk. This is not optimal due to War Hulk's amazing 0 base attack progression, but might be useful if you're Gestalting your way to The Hulk or something.

If you'd rather get Pounce some other way, here's a quick list.
Show
The Grand Compilation of Full-Attack Charging PC Tricks
(by approximate level of availability; a few books are probably missing)

NO TEMPLATES ARE LISTED HERE.

Also, certain abilities only work in the first round of combat. Others work any time they are used.

1) Totem barbarian: Lion (Barbarian substitutution level, trades Fast Movement and a few other things, ideal for dipping. Complete Champion.)
1) Snow Tiger Berserker feat (berserker lodge feat (RP restriction), light weapons only, Unapproachable East)
1) Lion Tribe Warrior (Regional feat, human only, single light weapon only, Shining South)
2) Catfolk Pounce feat (Racial feat: Catfolk, Races of the Wild. Available at character level 1, but listed at level 2 because of Catfolk's +1 LA)
4) Psionic Lion's Charge (2nd level psywar power, augments to add damage to each attack, Expanded Psionic's Handbook)
5) Lion's Charge (3rd level druid / 4th level ranger spell, most recent version Spell Compendium, the level changed but I can't reference it now)
5) Wild Shape (Fleshraker, Monster Manual III)
5) Sphinx Claws soulmeld, bound to hands chakra (Magic of Incarnum; limited to natural weapons only)
6) Lion's Pounce Wild Feat (Complete Divine)
7) Polymorph spell (many forms grant Pounce or similar abilities)
7) Metamorphosis power (as Polymorph, but might require Supernatural Transformation)
8) Wild Shape (Tiger) (If Core-only.)
8) Weretouched II: Tiger (Weretouched Master prestige class ability, Shifter only and only while shifting, Eberron CS)
9) Pouncing Charge Tiger Claw maneuver (Tome of Battle)
10) Pouncing Ambush (5th level Reachrunner prestige class ability, Shifter only and only while shifting, against flat-footed opponent only, Races of Eberron)
11) Lion's Pounce (4th level Sigh Rager prestige class ability, Oriental Adventures)
11) Lion's Pounce (5th level Lion of Talisid prestige class ability, Book of Exalted Deeds)
11) Primal Scream: Pounce (6th level Wildrunner prestige class ability, Races of the Wild
12) Chupoclops vestige (Tome of Magic)
13) Drift 4: Pounce like a leopard (7th level Geomancer drift, Complete Divine)
17) Shapechange spell (many forms grant Pounce or an extra move action, or something sicker (Chronotryn (FF), Choker).)
17) Greater Metamorphosis power (As Shapechange, but may require Metamorphic Transfer feat)
21) Dire Charge epic feat (Widely accepted as at least slightly underpowered, but works regardless of your equipment or magic availability. Draconomicon)

Variable level: Claws of the Leopard (spiked gauntlets, Complete Adventurer, priced at 38,305. Only works with the claws themselves).

Note that the Great Granddaddy of Wild Shape, the Mulhorandi Divine Minion, may be able to pull off some of these far earlier than other characters.

With sufficient cheatery twinks, anything is possible.

Runner-ups (those with similar abilities that do not exactly count as charging):
Full Mounted Attack (Cavalier and Halfling Outrider, CW; Kishi Charger, OA; Waverider, Savage Species; Ashworm Dragoon, Sandstorm; possibly others)
Dervish Dance (Dervish, CW)
Hustle (Psychic Warrior / Egoist power, XPH)
Wild Plains Offensive (Wild Plains Outrider, CV)
Shadow Pounce (Teflammar Shadowlord, UE / Crinti Shadow Marauder, Shining South)
Lion Tribe Warrior (Regional feat, two light weapons only, Shining South)
Two-Weapon Spring Attack (Tempest, CV)
Dimension Spring Attack (Elocator, XPH)
Black Magic Oil: Malign Fury (Warrior of Darkness, BoVD)
Orien's Fury (Blade of Orien, Dragonmarked)

#14

Maat_Mons

Oct 21, 2011 14:05:52

Here are some item I think could be pretty handy:

Cowl of warding: continuous mind blank and freedom of movement, 200,800 gp, Magic of Faerun p156

Displacement armor: 50% miss chance, +100,000 gp special ability, Oriental Adventures p122

Energy immunity buckler: immunity to one energy type for one minute as immediate action once per day, +2 special ability, Magic Item Compendium 11

Gemstone of fortification (heavy): immunity to critical hits and sneak attack, 35,000 gp + limited wish, Draconomicon 83

Hathran mask of true seeing: continuous true seeing, 75,000 gp, Unapproachable East p57

Proof against transmutation armor: immunity to transmutation effects that alter form, +5 special ability, Complete Mage p142

Ring of negative protection: immunity to negative levels, 36,000 gp, Magic Item Compendium p126

Soulfire armor: immunity to death effects, energy drain, and negative energy effects, +4 special ability, Book of Exalted Deeds p112

#15

bahumat

Oct 21, 2011 20:06:23

Wow, those are some nice items I never knew about. Not certain how useful some of it is at epic (how many death affects does one run into anyway), but I'll probably pick them up anyway.

Other items I've got- Tome/Manuals of +5, various equipments of +8, boots of combined fun (Steadfast Riding Boots of Speed, Striding, Teleportation and theBattle Charger), yes, the gm lets us stack fun effects so feel free to mention multiples of the same slot if you like the effects, Gauntlets of Weapons Arcane, War and the Master Strategist, and a couple of incidentals.

Cowl of Warding is in, that frees up some ring space and gives me mind blank, the most important thing ever.

How about weapons? I know the lance is going to be Valorous (Unapproachable East) for the extra charge multiplier, but what else should I put on it, if any? And what should I put on the relevant backup weapon/what should it be (a martial weapon preferrable, so as not to tie up a feat)? A sword gets a small boost from cavalier (+3 Competence), while mounted, but that's a minor issue since I'd likely use a lance from horseback unless it gets sundered.

I'm also thinking of making them Bane weapons, splitting them into a Bane lawful/chaotic outsider pair, or a Good/evil outsider pair (One weapon gets either), in addition to any other useful weapon enchantments.

Any other thoughts on what to throw in those extra 5 levels? Improving my mount's probably a good idea somehow. I could make my celestial mount my cohort thanks to leadership if I take the paladin levels at the right time. Then I could make it a non-horse/pegasus, and possibly give it some class levels.

#16

draco1119

Oct 21, 2011 21:32:12

How about a Dragon Rider? This thread might have some useful suggestions and/or ideas for you.

#17

bahumat

Oct 22, 2011 8:14:50

I did have a look at that. I'm certainly interested in the dips into Cloistered cleric, Ordained Champion and Prestige paladin as opposed to my 6 paladin. Saves a level, and gets domain feats...Still, I originally wanted to steer away from the halfling route. I guess I might have to to make my mount useful though...or I can drop the special mount, take less paladin and just make him as killy on the charge as possible. There's pros and cons to both. Pro to my one is that I get to keep cavalier AND CoI. Pro to supermount is, well, supermount.