Is sacred fist that good? I have read various opinions, some say no and some say yes. I want to play a strong monk who is fairly good all around, and the buffs and DMM persistent spell uses could make me decent in combat. I would like some first hand opinions from anyone who has played one.
Second, I was thinking about taking Divine Magician class feature so I could get things like bloodwind and greater might wallop. Is this a sound idea, or are there better ways of getting these spells and other useful arcane spells through other means?
Sub-question: what are some particularly good arcane monk spells?
Third, Is there any other prestige class that works well with sacred fist?
Fourth: feat? What are good, stand alone feats or easy feat trees that would help a divine monk. Extend spell/persistent spell/DMM are a given, so beyond those what are some good choices for the 1 or 2 free feats I will have.
Thanks in advance
Stalos
Righteous Might + Divine Powah = Grapple check waiting to happen. The size and str buffs are insane, then add in your monk unarmed damage while grappling, you can be pretty decent. This comes kind of late though, Ur-Fist is much faster.
Swordsage 1 (Same HD, more Skillpoint) [Iron Will](Human Bonus: Combat casting)
Monk 1 Stunning Fist
Monk 2 Combat Reflexes (Spellfocus Evil)
SS 2
SS 3
UrPriest 1 (Human: Improved natural Attack, Other: Combat Casting)
UrP 2
SF1
SF2 (Superior unarmed Strike as human, else:Imp.Nat. Att )
SF3
SF4
SF5 (Human: Extend Spell, else: Superior unarmed Strike)
SF6
SF7
SF8 (Human Persistant Spell, else Extend spell)
SF9
SF10
Shou Disciple 1 (Human: DMM Persist, else Persist)
SD2 (Bonus Feat - Free)
SD3
Personally I would go for Human or Goliath (thoug the latter would skip improved natural Attack to get DMM as well - and than take it in Epic)
Epic Prog would be something Like finishing Shou Disciple, taking some levels of Monk (to get greater Flurry - thus 6 in total) and than going into War Mind to get some nice littly psionics
As for getting more spells, the easiest way is to invent/modify domains. As for wizard spells that monks can use, I think wraithstrike is a classic candidate for DMM persist, and I think the SpC has more good ones - though I don't have it atm. A magic version of the Inconstant location power (you can teleport as a swift action for a number of rounds equal to your ML/CL). Holy c..p, persist that and you're set ;)
- Is an excellent monk
- Is a lousy cleric.
I am thinking about rolling up a sacred fist for a campaign, but I have a few questions.
Okey-dokey...
Is sacred fist that good? I have read various opinions, some say no and some say yes. I want to play a strong monk who is fairly good all around, and the buffs and DMM persistent spell uses could make me decent in combat. I would like some first hand opinions from anyone who has played one.
Sacred Fist is a full caster class, with full BAB, two good saves, that has a d8 hit dice, stacks with monk for unarmed damage, gives bonus to speed and AC similar to a monk, gives blindsense (only 10' but still), and has other special abilities on top of that. The full BAB and stacking with monk for unarmed damage ALONE make it a decent class to pair with monk. The full cleric casting and other stuff all but make it broken. ***IF you play it right.***
Playing any type of 'gish', and that's fundamentally what this is, is different than playing either parent class. You can't really play it like a proto-typical monk or a prototypical cleric. You have to play it like a sacred fist. That means buffing yourself up as much as possible PRIOR to combat, then crushing your enemies like a complete hose-beast with full attacks.
DMM will just make the class retartedly powerful. I don't think you *need* it, and I honestly think that in actual play, most DM's will nerf it if they aren't running an utter munchkin campaign (or something that is intentionally over-difficult on the challenges). Be forewarned, and make sure your DM has at least some idea of the tricks your pulling beforehand, lest he pull the rug from underneath you mid campaign.
Second, I was thinking about taking Divine Magician class feature so I could get things like bloodwind and greater might wallop. Is this a sound idea, or are there better ways of getting these spells and other useful arcane spells through other means?
Sub-question: what are some particularly good arcane monk spells?
If you can get the Spell Domain, that gives you access to Anyspell, Greater Anyspell, and Limited Wish, which gives you access to any Arcane spell up to 6th level (I think).
I personally go old-school, though, and just take UMD ranks. Wands are cheap, even eternal wands are, long term.
IIRC, monk unarmed attacks are treated as both natural weapons and manufactured weapons, making Greater Magic Weapon an option to increase accuracy/damage on the cheap. Mindblank is good for anyone (but it's 8th, so you won't get it without a domain that has it). Greater Heroism is awesome with DMM-persist cheese. Bite of the X is another good line that can get you some serious bonii (+16 Str with the highest spell level among like 9 other things), disgustingly broken with DMM. Also Heart of the X, if you take all 4 will make you immune to crits/sneak attacks, since you'll be in the thick of melee most of the time, this is a good thing. Overland Flight is a spell I almost always mem as soon as I can extend it to full 24hrs. Never having to worry about falling is good. Dispelling screen is one of the few spells you may ever need to cast in combat, if the BBEG has spellcasting minions, charge up and cast it around the two of you, prevents the spellcasters from getting any spells off on either of you while you fight. Haste can't be underestimated, if you can persist it (or actually, it's cheaper just to get boots of speed, they're a free action anyway).
Lion's Charge is a druid spell you'll want to get. Gives the pounce ability for one round. Full attack on a charge can be completely broken.
Third, Is there any other prestige class that works well with sacred fist?
Personally, any that increases either your monk chain, BAB, and/or cleric casting will work. I can think of a lot of them that fit at least one of those criteria, but it just depends on how you want to go. I have no idea what's the most optimal, but I can't think of any nearly as good as the Sacred Fist.
Fourth: feat? What are good, stand alone feats or easy feat trees that would help a divine monk. Extend spell/persistent spell/DMM are a given, so beyond those what are some good choices for the 1 or 2 free feats I will have.
Thanks in advance
Stalos
I had a friend just build a monk with Flying Kick, Robilars Gambit, Karmic Strike, and the TWF tree. He was a psychic warrior monk and used their version of the Lion's charge ability to great effect, getting as many as 13 attacks off on a charge. If you're going to be fighting crunchies more often than BBEG's, Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave will work.
I just built the following for an upcoming campaign. It isn't as optimal as swordsage or Ur-priest, but I don't like the Tome of Battle and noone I know is dumb enough to let me use the latter. I'm also not using DMM, because, again, noone I know is dumb enough to let me use it. I use Human Paragon levels to gain an extra Feat, and give me access to UMD as a class skill to cheese up the Arcane and Druid spells I want. Feel free to steal or not steal anything out of it you want.
Character Name: Domorro
Description: Human Tethyran Male; Age:25 Height: 6'1"; Weight:185; Athletic Build, Dark Brown Hair (closely cut), Blue eyes
Build: Human Paragon 3/Cleric 1/Monk 4/Sacred Fist 10/Divine Disciple 2
Estimates at 20--
BAB: +16 Saves: 17/12/16 Caster Level(s): Cleric 15
Alignment: LN Patron Deity: Waukeen
Domains: Pride, Trade Region: Amn
Feats: Mercantile Background (Free), Improved Initiative (Human 1), Two Weapon Fighting (1), Combat Casting (3), Improved Unarmed Strike (Mon 5), Stunning Fist (Mon 5), Combat Reflexes (Mon 6), Power Attack (6), Improved TWF (9), Flying Kick (12), Greater TWF (15), Robilar's Gambit (18)
Rolled Abilities: STR-15 DEX-16 CON-15 INT-14 WIS-16 CHA-12
Build Path
Level Class Level- Class Abilities; BAB F/R/W
1 HP 1 - Adaptive Learning (UMD); +0 0/0/2
2 Cle 1 - Turn Undead, Domain Powers (Pride, Trade); +0 2/0/4
3 HP 2 - +1 2/0/5
4 HP 3 - +1 Stength, Ability Boost (Dex +2); +2 3/1/5
5 Mon 1 - Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike (1d6), Wis to AC; +2, 5/3/7
6 Mon 2 - Evasion; +3, 6/4/8
7 Mon 3 - Still Mind, +10 Speed; +4, 6/4/8
8 Mon 4 - +1 Dexterity, Ki Strike (magic), Slow Fall 20ft, Unarmed Strike (1d8); +5 7/5/9
9 SF 1 - Unarmed Strike (1d8), AC Bonus +1; +6 9/7/9
10 SF 2 - +7 10/8/9
11 SF 3 - +20 Speed; +8 10/8/10
12 SF 4 - +1 Constitution, Sacred Flames 1/day Unarmed Strike (1d10); +9 11/9/10
13 SF 5 - AC Bonus +2; +10 11/9/10
14 SF 6 - Blindsense 10ft, +30 Speed; +11 12/10/11
15 SF 7 - +12 12/10/12
16 SF 8 - +1 Dexterity, Sacred Flames 2/day, +40 Speed, Unarmed Strike (2d6); +13 13/11/12
17 SF 9 - +14 13/11/13
18 SF 10 - Inner Armor, AC Bonus +3; +15 14/12/13
19 DD 1 - Divine Emissary; +15 16/12/15
20 DD 2 - +1 Wisdom, Sacred Defense +1; +16 17/12/16
Second, I was thinking about taking Divine Magician class feature so I could get things like bloodwind and greater might wallop. Is this a sound idea, or are there better ways of getting these spells and other useful arcane spells through other means?
Unless I'm missing something, Divine Magician will not give you blood wind or greater mighty wallop. It only allows you to pick Abjuration, Divination, or Necromancy wizard spells. Blood Wind is Evocation, and Greater Mighty Wallop is Transmutation.
Anyspell and Greater Anyspell from the Spell Domain are the first things that come to mind for picking up arcane spells. Limited Wish, Wish, and Miracle can all do the job as well, of course.
The Initiate of Mystra feat lets you cast Anyspell and Greater Anyspell as regular cleric spells, not just as domain spells.
you get great saves, and if you choose a diety wit favored weapon unarmed
you can qualify and get some nice feats.plus this allows spontanious casting and some nifty abilities..
I think the key issue is, a Sacred Fist build...
- Is an excellent monk
- Is a lousy cleric.
I agree, except for the "you can only fight bare-handed" bit. Even monks don't have to deal with that malarkey.
im very partial to favored soul / monk / sacred fist build.
you get great saves, and if you choose a diety wit favored weapon unarmed
plus this allows spontanious casting and some nifty abilities..
How do you cope with the need for Charisma on top of everything else?
that does make it harder, thats very true.
spellcasting prodigy helps tho
So I wonder, while the Ur-priest build gets 9th level spells, is it worth delaying them for so long? I mean, with a standardish build, you are getting your spells earlier and I get domains which can help this feat starved build.
I have another question. Should I try and squeeze in TWF? Or is there another method of fighting that will be just as effective?
Also, I have question about Greater Mighty Wallop. While getting UMD through Human paragon would be awesome, I wonder if there is another way to get this spell. Anyspell would work, but if there is anyway to get it without using a 6th level spell slot, that would be ideal. If I got magic domain, I could get an eternal wand which would be the fastest path.
Furthermore, if DMM persist doesn't fly, what would be some good replacement feats?
Thanks for the help, and I would love to hear more.
I personally would go Enlightened fist from Complete Arcane. Because it grants monk abilities, Unarmed damage, AC bonus, movement, wis to AC it pretty much stacked with your monk class.
Or go Unarmed swordsage Variant, Sorcerer, Enlightened fist, JPM 7. Now your a unarmed weilder, and you get some maneuvers and Arcane strike like abilities and JPM gives you arcane strike per spell lvl you give up for the strike except it does d10 damage.
Read up on Enlightened fist, you may like the Arcane version better. Throw in VOP sense to take VOP you gotta be a sorcerer so you dont use the wizards spell book, but if you want to give up VOP goodness, then take wizard in place of Sorcerer
.I personally despise Sacred fist, all it does is advance your unarmed damage.
I personally would go Enlightened fist from Complete Arcane. Because it grants monk abilities, Unarmed damage, AC bonus, movement, wis to AC it pretty much stacked with your monk class.
So... sacred fist gants unarmed damage, movement, you already have wis to AC . I guess full BAB and casting isn't enough for some people :D
As for "that" good, i think it is definitely one of the better monk PrCs out there. There are some very good wizard/sorcerer spells for monks, but even without them any class that gives you most monk abilities and the potential for level 9 spells should be taken very seriously.
I personally despise Sacred fist, all it does is advance your unarmed damage.
I personally would go Enlightened fist from Complete Arcane. Because it grants monk abilities, Unarmed damage, AC bonus, movement, wis to AC it pretty much stacked with your monk class.
Have you actually read the class description? While you are correct that all that *stacks* with monk is unarmed damage, it does more than *just* that.
To compare it to Enlightened Fist, you get Full BAB with SF (you don't get that with EF), you get full Caster progression (you don't get that with EF), in 10 levels you get +30ft to speed (about the same as EF, depending on your monk level), you get AC bonus of +3 (likely the same as EF, depending on your monk level, best you can hope for is +4 with EF), you keep wis to AC (the same as EF), d8 hit dice (same as EF), 4+ skills (same as EF), Sacred Flames (similar, though weaker than EF's Fist of Energy, but neither one is any good at high level play), Inner Armor (which is comparable to EF's Diamond Soul), Blindsense 10ft (which I personally prefer over Arcane Rejuvenation, but that's just me and totally opinion). EF gets to add in Stunning Fist and also gets the Arcane Fist and Hold Ray special abilities, which are both very nice, situationally, but I'd almost always rather have the two caster levels and the full BAB, personally. I'd also prefer high F/R over high R/W, since most of the SoS and SoD spells are Fort, and you're going to be getting significant boosts to Will anyway from Monk and the Caster class you're combining.
I like Enlightened Fist, I do, I've used it in a number of monk Gish builds. But to claim it's somehow phenomenally superior when it's almost identical is just wrong.
Thanks
Barring that, you could beg, blackmail, or bribe your DM into allowing Extra Spell to add it to your spell list. By the FAQ, it won't, but I think spending a feat to learn a spell wouldn't be a terrible trade.
If all that fails, 45,000 gets you a Wand of GMWallop at CL20 with 50 charges. That's awefully expensive, but you'd only need to hit a DC20 UMD check to hit it. Spend 1 rank on it, and then cast Divine Insight (Clr2, CDivine) for a +15 to the check. You should be able to make the DC20 with that, and if you fail, try it again, it won't cost any charges unless you roll a 1, you just gotta burn a couple more 2nd level spells till you get it.
Anyway, good luck. If all else fails, I recommend tequilla.
To compare it to Enlightened Fist, you get Full BAB with SF (you don't get that with EF), you get full Caster progression (you don't get that with EF), in 10 levels you get +30ft to speed (about the same as EF, depending on your monk level), you get AC bonus of +3 (likely the same as EF, depending on your monk level, best you can hope for is +4 with EF), you keep wis to AC (the same as EF), d8 hit dice (same as EF), 4+ skills (same as EF), Sacred Flames (similar, though weaker than EF's Fist of Energy, but neither one is any good at high level play), Inner Armor (which is comparable to EF's Diamond Soul), Blindsense 10ft (which I personally prefer over Arcane Rejuvenation, but that's just me and totally opinion). EF gets to add in Stunning Fist and also gets the Arcane Fist and Hold Ray special abilities, which are both very nice, situationally, but I'd almost always rather have the two caster levels and the full BAB, personally. I'd also prefer high F/R over high R/W, since most of the SoS and SoD spells are Fort, and you're going to be getting significant boosts to Will anyway from Monk and the Caster class you're combining.
I like Enlightened Fist, I do, I've used it in a number of monk Gish builds. But to claim it's somehow phenomenally superior when it's almost identical is just wrong.
Arcane Fist deserves a much closer look. If you are in a situation to deliver a full attack action, you get to Quicken, basically for free, any spell you can cast. Harm anyone? Or take you full attack, minus your lowest to hit, to cast Heal on the Fighter next to you. Also, if you somehow get pounce, things get silly. Lastly, Arcane Fist does not use up your Swift action for the round, so go ahead and pickup DMM Quicken. Cast two spells in a round and still take you full attack action. Pretty good.
My $.02:
Monk 2 / Cleric 3 / Enlightened Fist 4 / Sacred Fist 10
Or if you want to work with the Ur-Priest:
Monk 2 / Hexblade 3 / Ur-Priest 2 / Sacred Fist x / Enlightened Fist 4
Monk 2/ Warlock 3/ Ur-Priest 2/ Sacred Fist 10/ Enlightened Fist 3
Arcane Fist deserves a much closer look. If you are in a situation to deliver a full attack action, you get to Quicken, basically for free, any spell you can cast. Harm anyone? Or take you full attack, minus your lowest to hit, to cast Heal on the Fighter next to you. Also, if you somehow get pounce, things get silly. Lastly, Arcane Fist does not use up your Swift action for the round, so go ahead and pickup DMM Quicken. Cast two spells in a round and still take you full attack action. Pretty good.
No one is dissing the Enlightened Fist and it definitely can do some very nifty things. I myself am very impressed with the potential arcane fist + rapid stunning has for, say, an enervating flurry of doom. However, I believe your tactics do not work. Casting Heal or Harm with arcane fist may be theoretically possible (it doesn't explicitly state the spell must be arcane) can be quite difficult with 3+ a class that does not advance your divine casting and requires a CL of 3+ in an arcane casting class. BTW, for that reason none of the builds you posted work - hexblade doesn't have a CL at lvl 3.
As I said, it is still a decent class, and especially for a wizard/monk with Carmendine Monk or Kung-Fu Genius to minimize the impact of multiple ability dependency (the feared MAD is a monk/arcanist's greatest foe). However, that in no way diminishes the value of the Sacred Fist PrC.