for the races that i know of i was thinking drow or a regular elf, is there any other races out there that would go well with those two classes?
I think the only base classes that pull off a decent combination of arcane casting and melee ability are battle sorcerer (Unearthed Arcana, p56) and duskblade.
Since you seem to like elves, I'll recommend wild elf (Monster Manual, p104) for battle sorcerer and snow elf (Sandstorm Frostburn, p34) for duskblade.
Did you mean Frostburn?
Yes, I'll go back and fix that.
i would like to make a character for a dnd 3.5 game setting and i was wondering what would be good races and possible templates that would help compliment a duskblade/warmage mix.
As everyone has said, pick one, not both.
Warmages have slightly stronger spells and a broader selection of them. However, the class really lacks for options and doesn't quite pack the oomph needed to back up its threats.
Duskblades have much better martial abilities to fall back on, and the class is built around using one to synergize with the other (i.e. deliver a full attack with each hit delivering a Vampiric Touch or Shocking Grasp, and breaching SR while you're at it). You'll know fewer spells but be able to do more with them. With the right spell selection they can still hang back and cast as well. Duskblades do not require any prestige classes to work well, interestingly.
Here's the duskblade handbook, since I suspect you'll pick that.
StevenO's suggestion, battle sorcerer, is also worth repeating. It lacks any of the synergy of the duskblade and free-formness of the warmage, but more than makes up for it by having access to the entire godlike sorcerer/wizard list to choose from. Tack on the right prestige class (Abjurant Champion is the usual top-tier pick) and you might be amazed. However, the lack of class features and relative lack of spell slots makes this route slow to start out, if you're playing from very low levels.
Finally, if you're up for something totally exotic, it's quite possible to build a swordsage (Tome of Battle) to operate like a melee warmage. This does, however, emphasize fire damage, so it works best if used as part of a team (we had some success with one a while back - combined with my wizard's Energy Vulnerability debuffs and readied Benign Transpositions (the swordsage would charge, pounce, or immolate targets, and would then switch places with the less mobile but far more durable party tank, which would lock down those wounded foes and simultaneously reposition the swordsage for another rush attack).). A touch of description can make this approach more interesting than it seems
...
In the case of the swordsage I mentioned here, many of his maneuvers were basically spells anyway (Fan the Flames, Hatchling's Flame, Firesnake, etc.). For those that weren't, he altered the descriptions. It wasn't Roots of the Mountain, it was Magma Bind (merging with melted ground beneath his feet for added defense and stability). It wasn't just Searing Charge, it was Akashic Phoenix (involved him etching out a burning pentagram in front of him, then jumping through it and emerging in the form of a phoenix, which then dive-bombed its targets before reverting to his normal form - ...yes, this was stolen wholesale from the Tales games.). It wasn't just Burning Brand, it was Soul of Fire (described as projecting a burning duplicate of himself, mirroring his movements at a distance, slicing the enemies with flame as he sliced the air in front of him). And so on. Made him seem a lot more magical than his mechanics would otherwise suggest.
If you're allowed to use Web content (official WotC web content that is) consider also Swiftblade, it's retarded. Pre-reqs are useless but worth trading for the really good class abilities. A Sorc (or Wiz) 6/Swiftblade 9/Swiftblade Abjurant Champion 5 is about as redonculous as can be. If you do play a wizard beware you can't specialize in anything other than transmutation and still qualify for Swiftblade as written (unless maybe your DM says that not preparing a slot counts towards meeting the entry requirement).
....
If you're allowed to use Web content (official WotC web content that is) consider also Swiftblade, it's retarded. Pre-reqs are useless but worth trading for the really good class abilities. A Sorc (or Wiz) 6/Swiftblade 9/Swiftblade 5 is about as redonculous as can be. ...
Are there two different Swiftblade classes and if so with the DM allow both the be used as two completely seperate classes? Last time I checked you couldn't "retake" levels in a class and I believe most DMs will carry that over to classes that share the same name and prereqs.
Now looking at that class I can see a very sick concept: warrior1/BS4/SpellSword1/AbC5/Swiftblade9. It's only 16th-level BattleSorcerer spellcasting but has a +19 BAB (and caster level due to AbC) plus the goodies of Abjurant Champion, Swiftblade, and whatever the warrior (full BAB) class you pick provides.
Edit: Spell out SpellSword instead of leaving it as SS. It takes armor proficiencies to enter which would need to come from the "warrior" class but gets the character a level of spellcasting, a point of BAB, and also the ability to ignore a little arcane spell failure if that was in issue. I could dump both of the single class levels for BS6 at the cost of a point of BAB but with another level of spellcasting. BattleSorcerer can actually work pretty well to meet the "Must have spent the entire previous level using all 3rd level spell slots to exclusively cast haste," entry requirement when you'd only know a single spell of that level.
....
If you're allowed to use Web content (official WotC web content that is) consider also Swiftblade, it's retarded. Pre-reqs are useless but worth trading for the really good class abilities. A Sorc (or Wiz) 6/Swiftblade 9/Swiftblade 5 is about as redonculous as can be. ...
Are there two different Swiftblade classes and if so with the DM allow both the be used as two completely seperate classes? Last time I checked you couldn't "retake" levels in a class and I believe most DMs will carry that over to classes that share the same name and prereqs.
Now looking at that class I can see a very sick concept: warrior1/BS4/SS1/AbC5/Swiftblade9. It's only 16th-level BattleSorcerer spellcasting but has a +19 BAB (and caster level due to AbC) plus the goodies of Abjurant Champion, Swiftblade, and whatever the warrior (full BAB) class you pick provides.
I'm positive that Andarious meant "abjurant champion" on the second PrC - I know he's quite familiar with both, and as you note they dovetail quite nicely together.
(Out of curiosity, what's SS in that build stub? Swordsage?)
(There were two swiftblades, actually - the original, and then the revised one. The author tapped some of the CO Board regulars to help revise the class into its current, much more interesting, form.)
The SS StevenO usually uses is Spellsword, so I assume that's what he meant.
It's also what you'd need to meet the BAB requirement for Abjurant Champion. IIRC Swordsage is just a 3/4 BAB class.
Yes, I meant Abjurant Champion, was a mild anurism is all.
Sorry about the hard time. If you're lucky no one saw it (of course you weren't that lucky) but you know there are some people who think you could start over in a class and I wanted to crush that before it started.
Although you may not get the CHA synergy with Paladin you can easily take Barbarian or Ranger 2/BS4 directly into Abjurant Champion. If you want the level of SS you just need Paladin1/BS4/SS or something similar which saves you a level down the road. I'll also point out that you can go BS7/AbC5 for a +10 BAB and 12th-level casting at 12th level which isn't so easy to do if you're going witha Sorcerer spellcasting base. I will also note that the Soradin may run into some issues meeting the skill requirements for Sacred Exorcist (which is an amazing class for spellcasters.)
BattleSorcerer is a great option for a lot of players looking for matial characters with a touch of powerful spellcasting. Warrior1/BS5 goes into Dragon Disciple which would give you bonus 2nd-level slots. BS8 is actually an ideal entry point for Arcane Archer granted few people like that class. I've already mentioned how easily BS moves into AbC. If you want higher level spells without giving up much BAB you either need to wait for your powerful PrC classes (which will probably cost you BAB or spellcasting waiting) or you can take levels in BS. Looking at things I don't believe the BS is two full levels behind the Sorcerer when it comes to casting but it often takes a lot more trips outside of spellcasting levels for a Sorcerer to fight nearly as well as the BS.
Warmage can put out respectable damage, but not as much as a Mailman build.
How much damage do you want to do?
Warmage can put out respectable damage, but not as much as a Mailman build.
i would like to do a lot of damage, as much as possible to be specific. i would go warmage to deal massive damage with spells at a distance and and the duskblade to deal damage once enemies got close to me. and what is a mailman build?
and thank you everyone for your input as well, it has given me quite a bit to think about.
There are plenty of Warmage spells or Sorc/Wiz spells that work well at close range (Wings of Flurry, Fire Burst, etc.) look to those if you want to work at range, and up close. Or use a Duskblade (which has plenty of longer ranged spells) and blast at a distance via high Dex and (gulp) Weapon Finesse will let you hit in melee, where your channel spells will provide most of the actual damage.
Is this a Gestalt build? You (OP), keep talking about both the warmage and duskblade as if they are going to complement each other.
Without Gestalt, they simply don't, and reducing caster level is a cardinal sin, so I wander how that is going to work.
If it IS a gestalt build, then you have a TON more choices to pick than those two classes. Duskblade is okay, but doesn't have that umph, and warmage is a trap. You can get all of it's spells in other classes, and mostly don't need them all. most of them are rendered irrelivant with the elemental admixture MM feat.
So, YOU want a battle mage.
Well, there are a few ways to actually go about doing that.
1. Gish
that is naturally having a high BAB and SL. As was said before, Battle sorcerer 10/Abjurant champion 10 is a simple way to get to that point.
2.Duskblade
This is important because of their arcane channelling. At level thirteen they can damage nova. Thing is... they don't really get much of a variety either.
3. Commando as F**K Spellcaster.
Now this is the dude.
You can pick a wizard, a sorcerer, a cleric, a druid or an archivist.
What matters is not the class so long as it is tier 1. What matters is the FLAVOR.
For wizards, they have an alternate class feature which allows them to pick fighter feats instead of Metamagic feats. That is an option.
Pick Martial weapon proficiency, Light armor proficiency,Improved initiative, and whatever else peaks your interest. Eventually later pick up smiting spell feat, and then start moving towards the abjurant champion class. End up with a mythril full plate and wade through your enemies.
There is also the carmindine monk route, where you pick up a monk belt and the carmindine monk feat, which allows you to use intelligence to key off all monk abilities. Pick up supreme unarmed attack, snap kick, and smiting spell with that and you are good to go. With a sorcerer, one picks the arcane disciple feat if I recall correctly.
For clerics, pick war domain, and whatever else and yup.
For Archivists, becoming strong will highly depend on spell selection, but as they get every divine list to cast from, a good night of research can yield a BADASS takeaway. Using the carmindine monk feat with them works as well, and gives good flavor. Also traditional cleric buffs like divine power.
In all builds, Smiting spell is key for flavor, as you can charge your weapons with magic.
If this is Gestalt though, simply pick up warblade/wizard for the awesomeness.
Or Wizard/Archivist for the win. Divine power + Arcane spells+ smiting spell= destruction.
1. Gish
that is naturally having a high BAB and SL. As was said before, Battle sorcerer 10/Abjurant champion 10 is a simple way to get to that point.
Abjuran Champion is only a 5 lv PrC, so you need something else to finish the build.
What about something like Duskblade 1/Wizard 4/Ultimate Magus 10/wizard (prestige into something, maybe abjurant champion) 5
Put your primary advances into wizard (You can cheat to make this happen if you take practiced spellcaster Duskblade at level 3), and the delayed one into duskblade.
Might not be a horrible start, and will allow you some playability as a dual caster class character. Similar to just playing a wizard with a little bit of LA.
Int > Con > Str > Dex Other for stats.
I'd also point out that cleric 20 basically does what you want out of the box. As does dread necromancer 20 , and honestly duskblade 20.
What about something like Duskblade 1/Wizard 4/Ultimate Magus 10/wizard (prestige into something, maybe abjurant champion) 5Put your primary advances into wizard (You can cheat to make this happen if you take practiced spellcaster Duskblade at level 3), and the delayed one into duskblade.
Might not be a horrible start, and will allow you some playability as a dual caster class character. Similar to just playing a wizard with a little bit of LA.
I'd also point out that cleric 20 basically does what you want out of the box. As does dread necromancer 20 , and honestly duskblade 20.
That's not going to be much of a "gish" if you ask me. At 15th-level you're only looking at a +8 BAB which is barely better then a Wizard 15. Duskblade 1 is actually great for a number of things but in this case falls very flat. Oh, your spellcasting at 15th-level can at best be split DB9/Wiz13 which I don't think gives you a lot for your Duskblade levels unless you're just using those slots to MM Wizard Spells. It can be a little like playing a Wizard with some LA but you know what they say about wizards and LA.
I almost hate to say this but in the long run you'll be better off taking Duskblade2/Wizard3 into Ultimate Magus so you can get Combat Casting for free which is something you'd need to enter Abjurant Champion if that is ultimately your goal.
I have to agree that the best "fighter/spellcaster" combo is just some variation on Cleric 20 or Druid 20.
A few more thing:
As mentioned Abjurant Champion is only five levels long. It is a STRONG class that some already consider broken but if you stretch it out to ten levels it certainly would be broken.
If you play gestalt there are so many options available that things can become very sick when looking at spellcasting warriors. If PrCs are allowed into the gish things get even more insane.
Using my method you get +1 wizard casting at every level except duskblade 1. Practiced spellcaster gives +4 CL to duskblade maxed at your HD. This means that at level 5 when I go into the class, my Duskblade caster level is 5 and my wizard is 4. Ultimate magus looks at my lowest caster level when looking to put my full casting bumps. Wizard CL is lower.
So end of the day you are wizard 19, with some duskblade stuff and ultimate magus stuff tossed in. Doesn't sound awesome, but at low levels you use a bow like everyone else. Level 3-6 is tough. Level 7+ you basically have sorcerer casting but more spells per day. You do like any other melee wizard. Turn into something giant and club people. Your HP will be low, but it won't be the end of the world in a less optimized game. You might even get some cool duskblade only buffs.
Your BAB will be low, but you are also going to be a hydra so whatever. Some good spells in order. Enlarge person, Alter self, Haste, greater MW, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object (to turn into something cool forever), shapechange. Basically you just abuse the really broken line of spells, but play a relatively crappy build to balance it out in the end. I also think you would get good milage out of the wall of ___ spells for some battlefield control. You won't be as powerful as a full caster but if the rest of your party is fighters, monks, and healbots you might even shine.
Also, if you are levels 1-6 you will probably not make it unless you are experienced.
Seriously, just play cleric 20. Do Divine metamagic and walk around with full BAB and then flame strike people from a distance. If your group wants a religion pick Kord. Its core, and basically exactly what you want. Maybe explain you are from a sect that doesn't like to talk about its triumphs or spread the word to those who aren't already worthy. Then never speak of it again.
A sample could be: Battle Sorcerer 6 / Swiftblade 6 / Spellsword 1 / Dragonslayer 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / XXX + 1
As long as that last level contains a bonus to casting progression, your caster level will be 20 and you'll still have access to 9ths.
Alternate Class Feature for sorcerer to drop the familiar and pick up the divine companion which allows for a boost to saves, ac, or emergency healing.
Swiftblade 6 will net you two lost casting progression levels, but you continue to gain full base attack, good reflex and will saves, 50% miss chance vs. attacks (30% against targetted spells), and a slew of other ridiculous goodies.
Spellsword 1 will continue BAB and casting and reduce your arcane spell failure a bit.
Dragonslayer does the same as Spellsword minus the spell failure (iirc).
Abjurant Champion, as mentioned, is a staple and can be put to great use here.
Using my method you get +1 wizard casting at every level except duskblade 1. Practiced spellcaster gives +4 CL to duskblade maxed at your HD. This means that at level 5 when I go into the class, my Duskblade caster level is 5 and my wizard is 4. Ultimate magus looks at my lowest caster level when looking to put my full casting bumps. Wizard CL is lower.
So end of the day you are wizard 19, with some duskblade stuff and ultimate magus stuff tossed in. Doesn't sound awesome, but at low levels you use a bow like everyone else. Level 3-6 is tough. Level 7+ you basically have sorcerer casting but more spells per day. You do like any other melee wizard. Turn into something giant and club people. Your HP will be low, but it won't be the end of the world in a less optimized game. You might even get some cool duskblade only buffs.
I know how the Practice Spellcaster "trick" works with UM. You're entering UM with a 5/4 CL split so the first solo increase goes to wizard for a 5/5 split. The second solo increase you get to pick as they are tied so you go +1 on one side but that means the last solo split needs to go the other way which will again balance the CLs. It is possible to split the casting increases 7/10 but here you'll only get an 8/9 casting split. Going Wiz 4 with +9 from UM and another +5 from your final class still leaves you with only 18 casting levels. When I look at a UM at 20th-level I'm envision either a 17/10 split or maybe an 18/9 split if you favor prepared spellcasting.
I'm really a proponent for Swiftblade. Not the best pre-reqs (Dodge & Mobility), but it grants you some really good buffs and has quite a few drop out points, depending on how much casting you were comfortable losing.
A sample could be: Battle Sorcerer 6 / Swiftblade 6 / Spellsword 1 / Dragonslayer 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / XXX + 1
The "problem" with this build can be the Dragonslayer prereqs. You mention the Swiftblade having harsh requirements but Dragonslayer adds Iron Will to the build. It also takes a couple ranks in Tumble but IIRC that actually is a class skill for the Swiftblade. Of course the "simple" way to fix this build is jut to go to BS 8 as those last two levels of BS will advance both your spellcasting and your BAB. Now a +18 BAB and 18th-level spellcasting actually isn't too bad even if your spell casting is just a touch behind the a "real" casting character's ability.
The cost isn't as high (at all). If you don't need that 1 BAB for 5 levels, it's better. If you're going to 7 or more Battle Sorceror may be better, but at 6 or less I'd say Stalwart's the clear winner (unless you REALLY need that 1 BAB).
DS has the Aura of courage ability a paladin has, and gives it at first level, plus a d10 HD (both among the reasons why this is a favorite Gish class), while SS gives a d8 HD in addition to its' goodies.
Iron Will isn't hard to get; between the O. Hole and the Fey bloodline from UA, it can be easy to grab.
While possible to build a Warmage/Duskblade, it is not as good a caster as other builds. One way to fix this is the Drake Helm item from Explorers' Handbook. It gives you access to up to 4 other Arcane spells, but you can change out those spells at anytime, giving you a more Wizard-esqe feel to your caster. Here's a sample build: Duskblade 2/Warmage 4/Spellsword 1/Dragonslayer 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Serpent Slayer (from Serpent Kingdoms) 7 (or you could go SeSl 5/War+2 to get a spell you want). Immunity from fear effects and poison in this build, though your first few feats will be eaten by prereq.'s. The Warmage levels can be taken by any arcane caster, and Duskblade can be used to ease prereq.s'. Add Arcane Disciple: War and get full BAB when you need it 1/day.
@New-Shadow, thanks for pointing out that requirement error although you are right about switch DS and SS around. Well it is "easy" enough to get Iron Will just by spending another feat for it but I'm not all that familiar with the two "easy" ways you mention to get it. In all honest, if it wasn't for the prereqs I have a hard time thinking of a reason why anyone would skip taking a level in Dragonslayer if they know about it; ok, I guess a skill monkey may not benefit from it but everyone else should.
If I came across as being insulting in some way, I apologize; that was not my intention. I was merely stating facts that I thought were helpful and easy ways to get Iron will without spending a feat, I did not mean to be rude. Nor did I mean to rub anyone the wrong way over my opinion of Dragonslayer; if DS doesn't fit their character, then they are free to ignore my advice, as it's their character, not mine. I'm just trying to help and be helpful.
Not saying Stalwart Sorc's better all the time, compared with Battle Sorceror, it is sometimes though. Especially if you need Weapon Focus for something else, and don't need BAB, or plan to take more than 6 levels or so in the base class.
If you don't need/want the BAB or armored spellcasting (granted that light armor probably is the best armor) then a few levels of Stalwart Sorcerer could be better then Battle Sorcerer. At 3rd to 6th levels their attack will be the same about the same (+1to3 BAB +1 focus vs +2to4 BAB) and their spells known will also be about the same (at 5th-level the Stalwart goes up +1 known 1st-level spell) although the BS does have a slot less of each level. At 7th-level plus the BS does give the character better attacks.
New-Shadow, I should apologize if I came across as offended. Dragonslayer isn't all that available (Draconomicon isn't high on many people's lists of books to own) and while it is a great class for a one level dip its requirements are sometimes off putting. IIRC it needs a BAB that keeps some away from it and then it has two feat requirements which aren't all that great. Unfortunately I sometimes start typing before thinking too much as I was forgetting that Swiftblade already required Dodge. Duskblade/Warmage into Dragonslayer isn't something I see as worth shooting for.
I'm also not a big fan of giving away "freebies" when planning a character. To put it another way I'm not letting a player say his character has X just because he did Y when he hasn't actually done Y in the campaign the PC is being played in.
I understand the freebies issue; it isn't fair to everyone else if you don't give them something shiny, but you also want to balance that with what the player wants to grab. In the case of the second of my two examples, I would try to work it out with my DM beforehand, maybe having a trigger to jumpstart the bloodline, so that way it doesn't seem overpowered, even making activating it part of the "loot" of an adventure. It seems to me that making sure that everyones' happy with their special stuff rapidly becomes a balancing act that has extrmely little room for error.