The idea is: A very VERY sneaky character.. Using Hide/Hide in Plain Sight to really mess with an opponent as opposed to invisibilty(as this can be pierced with magic).
The idea would include the ability to pop in, hit, then pop out and hide - so far the Telflammar Shadowlord with Shadow Pouncing does this well (except the Hide in Plain Sight). But is there something else that can do this?
Also, maxing out the Hide and Move Silently skills are paramount..
Now the problem is I need this for a mid level character (Approx 12th - yet to be confirmed by DM).
Now the Character:
Cannot be Evil
Can only be standard Race, but can be different With DM Approval (so if you have a race in mind just post it and I will barter with him :D )
Must be from a published 3.0/3.5 book
Cannot be Psionic, A Warlock or Tome of Battle Class/PrC (he is VERY anti Tome of Battle)
Has a 32 pt stat buy
Aim for 12-13th level - heading up to 18th at the moment
Money as applicable in DMG
This character can be any mix of class except for stated above.
Ideas please?
The idea would include the ability to pop in, hit, then pop out and hide - so far the Telflammar Shadowlord with Shadow Pouncing does this well (except the Hide in Plain Sight). But is there something else that can do this?
Also, maxing out the Hide and Move Silently skills are paramount..
Now the problem is I need this for a mid level character (Approx 12th - yet to be confirmed by DM).
Forest gnomes are in the Monster Manual 1, and get a +4 racial bonus to hide (+8 in wooded areas), and another +4 from size. Get a permanent reduce person for another +4. Whisper gnome is another great one from Races of Stone, but that is straying even further from "standard race".
If you can't use the forest gnome as a base race, then just go with a standard race (gnome or halfling) and get the abilty to cast Alter Self, and just turn into something with massive racial bonuses to hide. Skulks are one that comes to mind. I think they were from the Fiend Folio. Look in my Alter Self guide (link in my sig).
The Dark Template grants hide in plain sight, and you can buy a magic item that gives it to you permanently for 22,000 in Tome of Magic.
Teflemmar Shadowlord is a good PrC to go into for what you want. You'll also want the abilty to cast Dimension Door as a quickened action. The Shadow Walker template (same book as the PrC) plus the feat Quicken Spell-like Ability would work.
Pulling all this off at level 12 is kind of tricky, though. Maybe an Unseen Seer build with four levels of Teflemmar Shadowlord? Casting obviously won't be the main focus. You could use one of the lower level spells that is like Dimension Door to jump up to your target, get a full attack from TS, and then use a quickened SLA to get away and hide again.
Or Quicken SLA to get to them and attack, and then just move away and hide.
Forest gnomes are in the Monster Manual 1, and get a +4 racial bonus to hide (+8 in wooded areas), and another +4 from size. Get a permanent reduce person for another +4. Whisper gnome is another great one from Races of Stone, but that is straying even further from "standard race".
If you can't use the forest gnome as a base race, then just go with a standard race (gnome or halfling) and get the abilty to cast Alter Self, and just turn into something with massive racial bonuses to hide. Skulks are one that comes to mind. I think they were from the Fiend Folio. Look in my Alter Self guide (link in my sig).
The Dark Template grants hide in plain sight, and you can buy a magic item that gives it to you permanently for 22,000 in Tome of Magic.
Teflemmar Shadowlord is a good PrC to go into for what you want. You'll also want the abilty to cast Dimension Door as a quickened action. The Shadow Walker template (same book as the PrC) plus the feat Quicken Spell-like Ability would work.
Pulling all this off at level 12 is kind of tricky, though. Maybe an Unseen Seer build with four levels of Teflemmar Shadowlord? Casting obviously won't be the main focus. You could use one of the lower level spells that is like Dimension Door to jump up to your target, get a full attack from TS, and then use a quickened SLA to get away and hide again.
Or Quicken SLA to get to them and attack, and then just move away and hide.
Hmmm.. Nice ideas, thank you PhaedrusXY - the Forest Gnome also suits another idea for using a small character (I tried a kobold but it was a little boring). Gives me somewhat of a starting point..
just play a shadowpouncer. Use google to search these boards ("how to" is in the handy links sticky). There's literally at least 20 ways to do this.
True.. But most builds peak at or near to 20th Level.. I wish to do this considerably earlier but keep drawing blanks. But thanks, I'll have a further look
Your best bet, as far as standard races go, is probably Human. Nab the "Able Learner" feat and go for a touchdown in the Factotum class. You can max ranks up to your character level + 3 for the rest of your build, if you dip once into Factotum.
Or, you can go the Wizardly route. To boost your Hide check further, there's the Shadow Shaper variant for Illusionists that lets you add your INT mod to your Hide checks. For Hide in Plain Sight, you can acquire the Dark template for LA +1. Else, you can dip into an Invoker class (DFA or Warlock) for the Darkness invocation to fuel the Blend into Shadows feat (DotU).
The sneakiest race (sans Pixie) is the Beguiler from Shining South. If you want to be a Pixie, there's the Ritual of Unlearning from Savage Species or the monster class progression from the same book. If you want to be a Pixie Warlock, just say the word and carnivore will appear with his advice lightly sprinkled with boldfaced text.
Edit: Argh! Just noticed you can't be a Warlock.
Vecna-blooded template from MM for immunity to divinations. Perform one of the Rituals of Alignment from Savage Species to fulfill the EVIL prerequisite. I'm not sure on the way to fill the spellcasting prerequisite yet. Maybe the "Alternate Spell Source" feat (Dmag) along with the higher-order ability from the Catalogues of Enlightenment (Planar Handbook), or Dark Chaos feat swap yourself Precocious Apprentice after dipping a level into the Conjurer (Immediate Magic - Abrupt Jaunt) variant.
Your best bet, as far as standard races go, is probably Human. Nab the "Able Learner" feat and go for a touchdown in the Factotum class. You can max ranks up to your character level + 3 for the rest of your build, if you dip once into Factotum.
Or, you can go the Wizardly route. To boost your Hide check further, there's the Shadow Shaper variant for Illusionists that lets you add your INT mod to your Hide checks. For Hide in Plain Sight, you can acquire the Dark template for LA +1. Else, you can dip into an Invoker class (DFA or Warlock) for the Darkness invocation to fuel the Blend into Shadows feat (DotU).
The sneakiest race (sans Pixie) is the Beguiler from Shining South. If you want to be a Pixie, there's the Ritual of Unlearning from Savage Species or the monster class progression from the same book. If you want to be a Pixie Warlock, just say the word and carnivore will appear with his advice lightly sprinkled with boldfaced text.
Edit: Argh! Just noticed you can't be a Warlock.
Haha yes unfortunately cannot be a Warlock - but what is a DFA? Beguiler will likely get a resounding no and Pixies the same (sorry Carnivore :P ). Nor Evil in any way shape or form..
Nice..
Again more things for me to research Haha yes unfortunately cannot be a Warlock - but what is a DFA?
Dragonfire Adept. Similiar to warlock, with a breath weapon you can use every round instead of eldritch blast.
Dragonfire Adept. Similiar to warlock, with a breath weapon you can use every round instead of eldritch blast.
Hmm... I don't think we've used one of them before - might be able to sneak it through lol. Cheers
Hmm... I don't think we've used one of them before - might be able to sneak it through lol. Cheers
This guide should help you.
It's the Poof, Smack! Poof, you can't see me even with your See Invisibility spell..
Thinking about it, it'd be nice to do decent damage but not required. I just want to have the ability to be a hindrance to the enemy during battle and be sneaky in general
EDIT: Actually, foind it for you http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-931097
Perhaps you should check out the Jaunter. Search the boards for Jaunter Optimization.
EDIT: Actually, foind it for you http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-931097
Firstly.. Thank you to everyone so far :D And true_shinken That's an awesome PrC
So thinking of this could do a build:
Rogue3 / Fighter2 / Jaunter 4 / Shadowdancer 1 / Telflammar Shadowlord 2 (up to 4)
When he's 14th level he'll be Shadowpouncing and have two sources of transport.. With Hide in plain sight (10ft near to a shadow), approximately +25 to his/her Hide skill, and plenty of helpful options for the party.
How else to get the hide skill up?
What do you guys think of this build?
Vecna-blooded template from MMV for immunity to divinations. Perform one of the Rituals of Alignment from Savage Species to fulfill the EVIL prerequisite. I'm not sure on the way to fill the spellcasting prerequisite yet. Maybe the "Alternate Spell Source" feat (Dmag) along with the higher-order ability from the Catalogues of Enlightenment (Planar Handbook), or Dark Chaos feat swap yourself Precocious Apprentice after dipping a level into the Conjurer (Immediate Magic - Abrupt Jaunt) variant.
Your best bet, as far as standard races go, is probably Human. Nab the "Able Learner" feat and go for a touchdown in the Factotum class. You can max ranks up to your character level + 3 for the rest of your build, if you dip once into Factotum.
Or, you can go the Wizardly route. To boost your Hide check further, there's the Shadow Shaper variant for Illusionists that lets you add your INT mod to your Hide checks. For Hide in Plain Sight, you can acquire the Dark template for LA +1. Else, you can dip into an Invoker class (DFA or Warlock) for the Darkness invocation to fuel the Blend into Shadows feat (DotU).
The sneakiest race (sans Pixie) is the Beguiler from Shining South. If you want to be a Pixie, there's the Ritual of Unlearning from Savage Species or the monster class progression from the same book. If you want to be a Pixie Warlock, just say the word and carnivore will appear with his advice lightly sprinkled with boldfaced text.
Edit: Argh! Just noticed you can't be a Warlock.
No kidding about the boldface text.
Also, seconding Beguilers. They're pretty rad. They are, unfortunately, not a standard race.
Phantom is a template you may want, it can be found in the Monster's Manual 5. It has no level adjustment, I think. One of the players in my Ptolus campaign wanted to take it.
I hope you didn't allow it. There's a reason it's LA is +--. They're not meant to be PCs.
Forest gnomes
Rogue 3 / Fighter 2 / Jaunter 4 / Shadowdancer 1 / Telflammar Shadowlord 2 (up to 4)
Equipment:
Ring of Reduction(Lords of Madness, page 130)On command, this ring reduces
the wearer’s size as described in the spell reduce person, except that any intelligent creature can be affected, not just humanoids. This reduces the wearer to the next smaller size category. A reduced creature gains a +2 size bonus to Dexterity, a –2 size penalty to Strength, and the size modifi ers to attack rolls and Armor Class appropriate to its new size. The wearer remains small until he removes the ring or commands it to restore him to his proper size.
Moderate transmutation; CL 9th; Forge Ring, reduce person, permanency; Price 20,000 gp.
10800gp Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis(Tome of Magic, Page 156)... Gain Dark Creature Template(10 min/day.... in min group of 1 Min, gain:
+10' Speed: all modes of Movement
Darkvision 60'
Hide in Plain Sight(like Shadowdancer)
Resist cold 10
Superior Low-light Vision
+8 Hide
+6 Move Silent
:D
If your DM is all about core only then stick to the simple build of Rogue/ shadow dancer. It is tried and true. You can get into it at sixth level and the first ability is hide in plain sight. As for races it really up to your personal outlook. I personally like small character, so, I would go with a classic halfling or a whisper Gnome out of Races of Stone. If your against small size the human is the best all around character but an Elf is not a bad way to go, gives you some better weapon chooses.
Getting at Shadowdancer at sixth level? A class that requires Hide 10 ranks? Is there some trick I am unaware of?
Getting at Shadowdancer at sixth level? A class that requires Hide 10 ranks? Is there some trick I am unaware of?
My bad thought it was 8 ranks
No kidding about the boldface text.
You didn't emphasize anything. Were you talking about the "in-caps" red-colored "EVIL" in my post? Also, if you were, your remark didn't make any sense.
Ring of Reduction(Lords of Madness, page 130)On command, this ring reduces
the wearer’s size as described in the spell reduce person, except that any intelligent creature can be affected, not just humanoids. This reduces the wearer to the next smaller size category. A reduced creature gains a +2 size bonus to Dexterity, a –2 size penalty to Strength, and the size modifi ers to attack rolls and Armor Class appropriate to its new size. The wearer remains small until he removes the ring or commands it to restore him to his proper size.
Moderate transmutation; CL 9th; Forge Ring, reduce person, permanency; Price 20,000 gp.
It doesn't say you gain a bonus to Hide checks, aside from the Dex bonus. What the ghey? Are we to assume the only benefits granted are the ones mentioned in the description, or that the wearer gains all the benefits of being another size category smaller?
i agree with PhaedrusXY... use a Forest Gnome.... try this:
Forest gnomes
Rogue 3 / Fighter 2 / Jaunter 4 / Shadowdancer 1 / Telflammar Shadowlord 2 (up to 4)
Equipment:
Ring of Reduction(Lords of Madness, page 130)On command, this ring reduces
the wearer’s size as described in the spell reduce person, except that any intelligent creature can be affected, not just humanoids. This reduces the wearer to the next smaller size category. A reduced creature gains a +2 size bonus to Dexterity, a –2 size penalty to Strength, and the size modifi ers to attack rolls and Armor Class appropriate to its new size. The wearer remains small until he removes the ring or commands it to restore him to his proper size.
Moderate transmutation; CL 9th; Forge Ring, reduce person, permanency; Price 20,000 gp.
10800gp Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis(Tome of Magic, Page 156)... Gain Dark Creature Template(10 min/day.... in min group of 1 Min, gain:
+10' Speed: all modes of Movement
Darkvision 60'
Hide in Plain Sight(like Shadowdancer)
Resist cold 10
Superior Low-light Vision
+8 Hide
+6 Move Silent
:D
Hahaha great minds Carnivore..
Look above your post by about four posts :D but thanks for the ideas on items
I think this will be a nice fun build - especially at 14th lvl..
What else could be done to increase the effectiveness of the build? Items? Feats? (where is quicken SLA by the way?)
What else could be done to increase the effectiveness of the build? Items? Feats? (where is quicken SLA by the way?)
Quicken SLA is in the Monster Manual 1.
Here is an awesome and cheap combo for being "invisible". You need to have Darkvision yourself for this to work, but if you do, it is very good and available early in the game.
1) Get a Ring of Darkhidden (MiC, makes you invisible to Darkvision, cheap).
2) Cast the 0-level spell No Light (Book of Vile Darkness originally. Not sure if it has been reprinted). Only darkvision can see through this.
3) Congratulations. You're invisible to everything that doesn't have True Seeing or the ability to see in magical darkness (devils, etc).
Now that trick would be nice but I would need to get DM approval to cast that spell as it's not on the Telf Shadowlord list..
And with a better hide skill this character could also be hidden from devils etc..
Now that trick would be nice but I would need to get DM approval to cast that spell as it's not on the Telf Shadowlord list..
Use Magic Device + 375 gp wand.
Now what weapons to use..? Something light most likely to make use of the high dexterity (with weapon finesse)?? Most weapons that small are going to do tiny amounts of damage..
Human with the Shadow-walker template (Unapproachable East, 71). Also uses the magic item in Tome of Magic page 156 to grant himself the Hide in Plain Sight ability. If Tome of Magic isn't allowed, just get a level of Shadowdancer any time after level 7.
Class/Level: Rogue 3
Feats: Blind-Fight, Able Learner (Human) (RoD), Dodge
Tactics: Skill monkey/scout/sneak attacker
Class/Level: Rogue 3/Fighter 2
Feats: Mobility (Ftr), Spring Attack (Ftr)
Tactics: Darkness; move in, Spring Attack, move out
Class/Level: Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Chameleon 2
Feats: Darkstalker (Lord of Madness), use the Chameleon's bonus feat for TWF for the time being. Later on, you can use the bonus feat for Heighten Spell.
Tactics: Same as before; if you have the Dark template/item by now, Hide in Plain Sight after moving out.
Class/Level: Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Chameleon 2 /Telflammar Shadowlord 4
Feats: TWF
Tactics: You can now do (once or twice per day) Standard action Dimension Hop (PHB2), full attack action while hiding, move out and make another Hide check to stay hidden.
Class/Level: Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Chameleon 10/ Telflammar Shadowlord 5
Feats: Improved TWF, ???, ???
Tactics:
First round: Swift action Dimension Jumper (Complete Mage), standard action Divine Power.
Second round: Move action Dimension Jumper, full attack, standard action Dimension Hop, free action Hide in Plain Sight.
Note: Dimension Hop will be used often, which is what Heighten Spell is for, so that it can take up higher spell slots. The Divine aptitude gives Divine Power for high BAB.
This isn't the most optimized, but it's a pretty clean build. Arcane spellcasting is basically used just for hopping around. I'd use the 2 open feat slots for Iron Will and Cumbrous Will (Savage Species) if allowed. Craven (Champions of Ruin) is also an excellent choice.