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Idea for a good dragon?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
philitar
Oct 16, 2008 2:58:20 i have a game with some over-power-boosted-players, thank to one of them who stick all day long in this forum. So i wanna give them some difficulty.

I was thinking of a ancien gold dragon but i'm not sure of what kind of spell and feats i can give it, i can look in all the book but not in the magazine of dnd.

the group have an archer with a bow splitting, of force and bane (choice) an other one is a mage who can blink as a immediate action, a druid with so many dice of dammage and a clerc who use a big hammer and greater migthy wallop (so much massive damage), all of them has some high save in everything.

how can i made a monster who will hit them hard in their superiority for once?

plz help
thank
#2
natenate
Oct 16, 2008 3:44:53
i have a game with some over-power-boosted-players, thank to one of them who stick all day long in this forum. So i wanna give them some difficulty.

I've sent you a private message containing some advice on this type of encounter, rather than posting it here where they can read it and metagame.
#3
pithica
Oct 16, 2008 16:10:24 Running a big dragon is a fairly difficult task as a DM. You've got, effectively, a very high level sorceror, who also has a huge full attack, and a breath weapon, along with a host of other abilities.

With dragons, I generally start with spell selection, making sure to remember (with the big dragons) that they have access to Cleric spells and to spells with material components sans components. They should focus on self-buffs with long durations, and keep them up almost constantly. They should also be sure to take Energy Immunity if they have the spell level, to take care of the one major weakness they have.

From there, I tend to play them like a Fighter, take Dire Charge and Quicken Breath, possibly having them lead off with a Quickened Breath Weapon Admixture, followed by a charge+full attack and then the Breath Weapon. If you lead with a surprise round, which shouldn't be too hard to pull off, that's usually enough to kill or all but at least one of the party and put them on the defensive. Then just go with quickened BC spells while you melee each of them into the dirt one after the other.

If you use Superior Invis + Nondetection + Mindblank to start off the surprise, and have the slots for it, a couple of Chained Spell Thefts to start by drawing off their buffs is a good lead in to the above.
#4
stpetegamer
Oct 16, 2008 16:13:20
Running a big dragon is a fairly difficult task as a DM. You've got, effectively, a very high level sorceror, who also has a huge full attack, and a breath weapon, along with a host of other abilities.

With dragons, I generally start with spell selection, making sure to remember (with the big dragons) that they have access to Cleric spells and to spells with material components sans components. They should focus on self-buffs with long durations, and keep them up almost constantly. They should also be sure to take Energy Immunity if they have the spell level, to take care of the one major weakness they have.

From there, I tend to play them like a Fighter, take Dire Charge and Quicken Breath, possibly having them lead off with a Quickened Breath Weapon Admixture, followed by a charge+full attack and then the Breath Weapon. If you lead with a surprise round, which shouldn't be too hard to pull off, that's usually enough to kill or all but at least one of the party and put them on the defensive. Then just go with quickened BC spells while you melee each of them into the dirt one after the other.

If you use Superior Invis + Nondetection + Mindblank to start off the surprise, and have the slots for it, a couple of Chained Spell Thefts to start by drawing off their buffs is a good lead in to the above.

Sounds like you are trying to hit the party reset button there champ...
and don't forget the old red dragon iron golem love fest... (classic)
#5
pithica
Oct 16, 2008 16:37:25
Sounds like you are trying to hit the party reset button there champ...

It's a dragon. It is the iconic monster of the game and has been since chain mail. Players should not only have to have powerful characters to fight one, but they should also be on their game as players to successfully beat one. Especially one that's been good enough to survive the thousands of years it takes to make it to Greater Wyrm (or however long it is now in this edition).

EDIT: Besides, he did ask for something hard. :P
#6
reis
Oct 16, 2008 18:31:00 I'd argue that you can't use the challenge ratings presented for monsters in the monster manual (particularly Monster Mansual 1 and 2) as a reliable indicator of the challenge they will present to a party of optimized PC's using smart tactics with full access to any appropriate books.

an ancient gold dragon is a great example. It is rated challenge rating 24, which means that it should be a very difficult challenge for a party of 4 20th level PC's. But look at its statistics. It only casts spells at 15th CL (granted it has a great deal of versatility), has SR 30, AC 40, 542 hp, etc. If your party consisted of wizard20, fighter20, rogue20, cleric20 or something like that and was only allowed to use core books, this is a relatively even fight, although if the wizard and cleric are abusing time stop, gate, metamagic rods etc it can get unbalanced pretty quick.

Against an optimized party using smart tactics to take full advantage of their abilities, it's not even close. You need to make the monster harder and give it tactical advantages to even the playing field. How much skewing of the CR table/tactical advantages you need to do is a matter of judgement, you need to think about how the party fights and decide how to make the fight a challenge.

For example a lot of optimized parties make heavy use of tactical teleportation via abrupt jaunt, tome of battle manuevers, benign transposition, etc etc. A good way to negate this advantage is to force the PCs to fight the battle in a location that has a Dimension Lock or better, Forbiddance affecting them which is cast at too high of a caster level to dispel.

other people have posted other good ideas, like having the dragon have some way to be warned of intruders and then buff itself up before the fight. An ancient gold dragon has AC 40 to begin with, if it buffs itself up before the fight it can probably get this into the mid 50's or 60 without too much trouble. That will make it harder for the cleric, druid, and archer to hit. Debuffing the party using spelltheft and greater dispel magic is also good.

just remember what the other poster warned of, you want things to be challenging but if the fight is unwinnable that isn't good either, unless you want to wipe out the whole party. Take the time to figure out where that balance is.
#7
muertog
Oct 16, 2008 19:54:05 :/
Problem with encounters in the 20+ range, it tends to be one-sided one way or another.

How are you going to introduce them to the encounter runs a LONG way towards the difficulty. If the dragon is seeking them out, it would obviously ambush them when the party's buffing and casting is at an all-time low. After a previous fight is likely.

Remember, these dragons are -smart-. Int of 20+ means genius level IQ.

If the encounter has the party seeking the dragon -out-, remember that there is always Prismatic Wall, Anticipate Teleport (Greater), Force Wall, and lots of stuff that could be done up with Permanency. Walls of Greater Dispel Magic are fun to whittle away the party resources. The dragon disguised as a chained captive while phantasmal sounds make it appear the "real dragon" is in the next cavern over is a fun one if the dragon can anticipate an attack... and dragons have access to lots of divination spells. They -should- know -when- someone is going to attack.
Traps are -also- a great way to throw in under-CR'ed encounters while the party is trying to find the dragon in the lair. Magical Heightened Baleful Polymorph traps? Antimagic Field traps halfway over a pit filled with poisoned spikes? Agreed, it shouldn't -kill- high leveled characters, but it -does- force them to use resources and plan in advance.

Personally, I would never want to beard any adult dragon in its lair. :P Those things have had centuries to build up the defenses. And improve on them. Look up the Book of Challenges for additional lair-type ideas.
#8
pithica
Oct 17, 2008 7:44:43
For example a lot of optimized parties make heavy use of tactical teleportation via abrupt jaunt, tome of battle manuevers, benign transposition, etc etc. A good way to negate this advantage is to force the PCs to fight the battle in a location that has a Dimension Lock or better, Forbiddance affecting them which is cast at too high of a caster level to dispel.

Even better is Greater Anticipate Teleportation from the Spell Compendium. It's a 6th level 24hr buff that not only lets the Dragon know if someone's attempting to teleport to a location within 5ft/lvl of the dragon, it also tells them where they are going to land and delays said teleportation for 3 rounds (meaning they 'bampf' away, but don't 'land' for 3 rounds).

I've had one party rely on teleportation solely for movement, one NPC with this spell up will make them remember that one should never completely abandon the mundane.

Remember, these dragons are -smart-. Int of 20+ means genius level IQ.

Just for the record, an IQ score of 140+ is considered Genius. Int as a score has always been intended to represent 10 points of IQ per point of Int. This is reflected in the fact that the average Int score is 10 and IQ 100, among humans in the real world, and by the fact that the highest Int score available to humans at start (with standard rolls) is 18, while the highest IQ's in the real world generally hit the 180 range. It's been that way since at least 2nd Ed, and there was a sage article about ability scores that explained it right after 3rd came out.

Int scores higher than 20 (200+ IQ) are superhuman. Dragons aren't just 'geniuses', they're 'super-geniuses' (sorry, I couldn't resist the wiley coyote reference). Even the relatively 'dumb' white dragons start out at 14 Int (140 IQ's) and should NEVER behave in a manner that isn't reflective of their higher than average int score. That doesn't mean they can't make mistakes, especially when you through in pride and their innate superiority complex. But, their mistakes should be personality mistakes, like underestimating an opponent, or gloating before killing, or the like, and not any obvious gotcha's like not picking Energy Resistance (and later Energy Immunity) as a spell known.

To the OP, also consider the spell Hallow. There's no reason a great wyrm Gold Dragon couldn't/wouldn't have his entire lair (or as much as he could afford) hallowed to Bahamut (or whichever Good Dragon God he worships) to take advantage of either Death Ward or Freedom of Movement as a full time buff.

I'd also pre-roll/select his treasure and make sure he's wearing any items he can (Dragons can wear Neck, Head, Rings, Arms, and Ioun Stones according to the MIC). Every advantage the dragon can take should be taken. He's been hunted by adventurer's most of his life, and it's been a very long one. He should have plans for dealing with it.

With big NPC's like dragons (or balors or high level wizards, or whatever), I usually make a chart of what the mob does each round of combat for the first 10-20 rounds, then keep track with a d20. Keeps me from (usually) skipping some awesome thing they could do. If the PC's make it that long, I generally slack off significantly, to reflect the fact that the NPC doesn't normally deal with creatures able to get that far and gets confused.
#9
reis
Oct 17, 2008 13:40:50 I'd say greater anticipate teleportation is a good buff to have up but not a substitute for spending the big money on forbiddance or Unhallow with Dimensional Anchor attached. The reason being, 5'/level radius if not a very big area, even for a 20th level caster thats only 100', so it offers no help against any opponent that teleports in at a distance greater than that which is a distinct possibility.
#10
pithica
Oct 17, 2008 14:49:15 If the walls of his lair aren't more than 95' away (greater wyrm gold dragon CL is 19), then that isn't an issue. But, for me, that buff isn't about him trying to stop people from getting into his lair, it's about controlling tactical movement of the opponents when engaged in melee. You threaten a LOT of squares as a dragon, you want to make them move through those squares to hit you, if possible. In addition to that, GAT does something Forbiddence doesn't do, it takes someone out of the fight for 3 rounds, completely and totally. That's better than just making them walk. It's not as much of a help against spellcasters, who may be teleporting out to an extended range instead of into close close range, but it's still more worth it, to me, for BC than forbiddance (which would prevent Teleporation in entirely and overwrite GAT).
#11
reis
Oct 17, 2008 15:24:33 the point of forbiddance/hallow(dimensional anchor) isn't to stop people from entering entirely but rather to control how and where they can enter to the dragon's advantage (chokepoints, traps, guardian monsters etc). GAT isn't going to accomplish that unless the lair is relatively small which doesn't really suit a great wyrm (i think the Op actually said ancient) gold dragon very well for a number of reasons I would think are pretty obvious.

also GAT doesn't help against ethereal travel or the Gate spell whereas forbiddance or dimensional anchor on a hallow do, they also prevent anyone from summoning allies into your lair or escaping by any of the aforementioned means.

Forbiddance also can't be dispelled except by a higher level caster, with some items etc to boost CL you can probably get this above 20. While this isn't foolproof since a crafty dragon-hunter might be able to get a higher CL than the dragon or simply use Mage's Disjunction on it, it is better than GAT in that regard.

I'd recommend also having GAT up at all times as a backup measure. Some other good backup defenses include Mind Blank, and permanent Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum and wall of force/prismatic wall spells.

Finally there are various lair wards in Draconomicon that a enterprising dragon might make good use of in defending its' lair.
#12
pithica
Oct 17, 2008 15:38:54 Good point. I just wouldn't want to have forbiddance in the area he actually plans on fighting, since the effects of GAT are, at least to me, better in melee/short range.

You're also right that he said ancient, I don't know how I read that as 'Greater Wyrm'.
#13
philitar
Oct 18, 2008 0:23:49 Natenate and InnaBinder thanks with this i should be able to give them a little wack.

i will give you some news
#14
muertog
Oct 18, 2008 0:32:12 Good luck. Give 'em hell, soldier! ^_^
#15
jameswilliamogle
Oct 18, 2008 10:37:46 I like Simulacrum on my Dragons... Why just fight w/ one when you can fight w/ all?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 philitar Oct 16, 2008 2:58:20	i have a game with some over-power-boosted-players, thank to one of them who stick all day long in this forum. So i wanna give them some difficulty. I was thinking of a ancien gold dragon but i'm not sure of what kind of spell and feats i can give it, i can look in all the book but not in the magazine of dnd. the group have an archer with a bow splitting, of force and bane (choice) an other one is a mage who can blink as a immediate action, a druid with so many dice of dammage and a clerc who use a big hammer and greater migthy wallop (so much massive damage), all of them has some high save in everything. how can i made a monster who will hit them hard in their superiority for once? plz help thank
#2 natenate Oct 16, 2008 3:44:53	i have a game with some over-power-boosted-players, thank to one of them who stick all day long in this forum. So i wanna give them some difficulty. I've sent you a private message containing some advice on this type of encounter, rather than posting it here where they can read it and metagame.
#3 pithica Oct 16, 2008 16:10:24	Running a big dragon is a fairly difficult task as a DM. You've got, effectively, a very high level sorceror, who also has a huge full attack, and a breath weapon, along with a host of other abilities. With dragons, I generally start with spell selection, making sure to remember (with the big dragons) that they have access to Cleric spells and to spells with material components sans components. They should focus on self-buffs with long durations, and keep them up almost constantly. They should also be sure to take Energy Immunity if they have the spell level, to take care of the one major weakness they have. From there, I tend to play them like a Fighter, take Dire Charge and Quicken Breath, possibly having them lead off with a Quickened Breath Weapon Admixture, followed by a charge+full attack and then the Breath Weapon. If you lead with a surprise round, which shouldn't be too hard to pull off, that's usually enough to kill or all but at least one of the party and put them on the defensive. Then just go with quickened BC spells while you melee each of them into the dirt one after the other. If you use Superior Invis + Nondetection + Mindblank to start off the surprise, and have the slots for it, a couple of Chained Spell Thefts to start by drawing off their buffs is a good lead in to the above.
#4 stpetegamer Oct 16, 2008 16:13:20	Running a big dragon is a fairly difficult task as a DM. You've got, effectively, a very high level sorceror, who also has a huge full attack, and a breath weapon, along with a host of other abilities. With dragons, I generally start with spell selection, making sure to remember (with the big dragons) that they have access to Cleric spells and to spells with material components sans components. They should focus on self-buffs with long durations, and keep them up almost constantly. They should also be sure to take Energy Immunity if they have the spell level, to take care of the one major weakness they have. From there, I tend to play them like a Fighter, take Dire Charge and Quicken Breath, possibly having them lead off with a Quickened Breath Weapon Admixture, followed by a charge+full attack and then the Breath Weapon. If you lead with a surprise round, which shouldn't be too hard to pull off, that's usually enough to kill or all but at least one of the party and put them on the defensive. Then just go with quickened BC spells while you melee each of them into the dirt one after the other. If you use Superior Invis + Nondetection + Mindblank to start off the surprise, and have the slots for it, a couple of Chained Spell Thefts to start by drawing off their buffs is a good lead in to the above. Sounds like you are trying to hit the party reset button there champ... and don't forget the old red dragon iron golem love fest... (classic)
#5 pithica Oct 16, 2008 16:37:25	Sounds like you are trying to hit the party reset button there champ... It's a dragon. It is the iconic monster of the game and has been since chain mail. Players should not only have to have powerful characters to fight one, but they should also be on their game as players to successfully beat one. Especially one that's been good enough to survive the thousands of years it takes to make it to Greater Wyrm (or however long it is now in this edition). EDIT: Besides, he did ask for something hard. :P
#6 reis Oct 16, 2008 18:31:00	I'd argue that you can't use the challenge ratings presented for monsters in the monster manual (particularly Monster Mansual 1 and 2) as a reliable indicator of the challenge they will present to a party of optimized PC's using smart tactics with full access to any appropriate books. an ancient gold dragon is a great example. It is rated challenge rating 24, which means that it should be a very difficult challenge for a party of 4 20th level PC's. But look at its statistics. It only casts spells at 15th CL (granted it has a great deal of versatility), has SR 30, AC 40, 542 hp, etc. If your party consisted of wizard20, fighter20, rogue20, cleric20 or something like that and was only allowed to use core books, this is a relatively even fight, although if the wizard and cleric are abusing time stop, gate, metamagic rods etc it can get unbalanced pretty quick. Against an optimized party using smart tactics to take full advantage of their abilities, it's not even close. You need to make the monster harder and give it tactical advantages to even the playing field. How much skewing of the CR table/tactical advantages you need to do is a matter of judgement, you need to think about how the party fights and decide how to make the fight a challenge. For example a lot of optimized parties make heavy use of tactical teleportation via abrupt jaunt, tome of battle manuevers, benign transposition, etc etc. A good way to negate this advantage is to force the PCs to fight the battle in a location that has a Dimension Lock or better, Forbiddance affecting them which is cast at too high of a caster level to dispel. other people have posted other good ideas, like having the dragon have some way to be warned of intruders and then buff itself up before the fight. An ancient gold dragon has AC 40 to begin with, if it buffs itself up before the fight it can probably get this into the mid 50's or 60 without too much trouble. That will make it harder for the cleric, druid, and archer to hit. Debuffing the party using spelltheft and greater dispel magic is also good. just remember what the other poster warned of, you want things to be challenging but if the fight is unwinnable that isn't good either, unless you want to wipe out the whole party. Take the time to figure out where that balance is.
#7 muertog Oct 16, 2008 19:54:05	:/ Problem with encounters in the 20+ range, it tends to be one-sided one way or another. How are you going to introduce them to the encounter runs a LONG way towards the difficulty. If the dragon is seeking them out, it would obviously ambush them when the party's buffing and casting is at an all-time low. After a previous fight is likely. Remember, these dragons are -smart-. Int of 20+ means genius level IQ. If the encounter has the party seeking the dragon -out-, remember that there is always Prismatic Wall, Anticipate Teleport (Greater), Force Wall, and lots of stuff that could be done up with Permanency. Walls of Greater Dispel Magic are fun to whittle away the party resources. The dragon disguised as a chained captive while phantasmal sounds make it appear the "real dragon" is in the next cavern over is a fun one if the dragon can anticipate an attack... and dragons have access to lots of divination spells. They -should- know -when- someone is going to attack. Traps are -also- a great way to throw in under-CR'ed encounters while the party is trying to find the dragon in the lair. Magical Heightened Baleful Polymorph traps? Antimagic Field traps halfway over a pit filled with poisoned spikes? Agreed, it shouldn't -kill- high leveled characters, but it -does- force them to use resources and plan in advance. Personally, I would never want to beard any adult dragon in its lair. :P Those things have had centuries to build up the defenses. And improve on them. Look up the Book of Challenges for additional lair-type ideas.
#8 pithica Oct 17, 2008 7:44:43	For example a lot of optimized parties make heavy use of tactical teleportation via abrupt jaunt, tome of battle manuevers, benign transposition, etc etc. A good way to negate this advantage is to force the PCs to fight the battle in a location that has a Dimension Lock or better, Forbiddance affecting them which is cast at too high of a caster level to dispel. Even better is Greater Anticipate Teleportation from the Spell Compendium. It's a 6th level 24hr buff that not only lets the Dragon know if someone's attempting to teleport to a location within 5ft/lvl of the dragon, it also tells them where they are going to land and delays said teleportation for 3 rounds (meaning they 'bampf' away, but don't 'land' for 3 rounds). I've had one party rely on teleportation solely for movement, one NPC with this spell up will make them remember that one should never completely abandon the mundane. Remember, these dragons are -smart-. Int of 20+ means genius level IQ. Just for the record, an IQ score of 140+ is considered Genius. Int as a score has always been intended to represent 10 points of IQ per point of Int. This is reflected in the fact that the average Int score is 10 and IQ 100, among humans in the real world, and by the fact that the highest Int score available to humans at start (with standard rolls) is 18, while the highest IQ's in the real world generally hit the 180 range. It's been that way since at least 2nd Ed, and there was a sage article about ability scores that explained it right after 3rd came out. Int scores higher than 20 (200+ IQ) are superhuman. Dragons aren't just 'geniuses', they're 'super-geniuses' (sorry, I couldn't resist the wiley coyote reference). Even the relatively 'dumb' white dragons start out at 14 Int (140 IQ's) and should NEVER behave in a manner that isn't reflective of their higher than average int score. That doesn't mean they can't make mistakes, especially when you through in pride and their innate superiority complex. But, their mistakes should be personality mistakes, like underestimating an opponent, or gloating before killing, or the like, and not any obvious gotcha's like not picking Energy Resistance (and later Energy Immunity) as a spell known. To the OP, also consider the spell Hallow. There's no reason a great wyrm Gold Dragon couldn't/wouldn't have his entire lair (or as much as he could afford) hallowed to Bahamut (or whichever Good Dragon God he worships) to take advantage of either Death Ward or Freedom of Movement as a full time buff. I'd also pre-roll/select his treasure and make sure he's wearing any items he can (Dragons can wear Neck, Head, Rings, Arms, and Ioun Stones according to the MIC). Every advantage the dragon can take should be taken. He's been hunted by adventurer's most of his life, and it's been a very long one. He should have plans for dealing with it. With big NPC's like dragons (or balors or high level wizards, or whatever), I usually make a chart of what the mob does each round of combat for the first 10-20 rounds, then keep track with a d20. Keeps me from (usually) skipping some awesome thing they could do. If the PC's make it that long, I generally slack off significantly, to reflect the fact that the NPC doesn't normally deal with creatures able to get that far and gets confused.
#9 reis Oct 17, 2008 13:40:50	I'd say greater anticipate teleportation is a good buff to have up but not a substitute for spending the big money on forbiddance or Unhallow with Dimensional Anchor attached. The reason being, 5'/level radius if not a very big area, even for a 20th level caster thats only 100', so it offers no help against any opponent that teleports in at a distance greater than that which is a distinct possibility.
#10 pithica Oct 17, 2008 14:49:15	If the walls of his lair aren't more than 95' away (greater wyrm gold dragon CL is 19), then that isn't an issue. But, for me, that buff isn't about him trying to stop people from getting into his lair, it's about controlling tactical movement of the opponents when engaged in melee. You threaten a LOT of squares as a dragon, you want to make them move through those squares to hit you, if possible. In addition to that, GAT does something Forbiddence doesn't do, it takes someone out of the fight for 3 rounds, completely and totally. That's better than just making them walk. It's not as much of a help against spellcasters, who may be teleporting out to an extended range instead of into close close range, but it's still more worth it, to me, for BC than forbiddance (which would prevent Teleporation in entirely and overwrite GAT).
#11 reis Oct 17, 2008 15:24:33	the point of forbiddance/hallow(dimensional anchor) isn't to stop people from entering entirely but rather to control how and where they can enter to the dragon's advantage (chokepoints, traps, guardian monsters etc). GAT isn't going to accomplish that unless the lair is relatively small which doesn't really suit a great wyrm (i think the Op actually said ancient) gold dragon very well for a number of reasons I would think are pretty obvious. also GAT doesn't help against ethereal travel or the Gate spell whereas forbiddance or dimensional anchor on a hallow do, they also prevent anyone from summoning allies into your lair or escaping by any of the aforementioned means. Forbiddance also can't be dispelled except by a higher level caster, with some items etc to boost CL you can probably get this above 20. While this isn't foolproof since a crafty dragon-hunter might be able to get a higher CL than the dragon or simply use Mage's Disjunction on it, it is better than GAT in that regard. I'd recommend also having GAT up at all times as a backup measure. Some other good backup defenses include Mind Blank, and permanent Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum and wall of force/prismatic wall spells. Finally there are various lair wards in Draconomicon that a enterprising dragon might make good use of in defending its' lair.
#12 pithica Oct 17, 2008 15:38:54	Good point. I just wouldn't want to have forbiddance in the area he actually plans on fighting, since the effects of GAT are, at least to me, better in melee/short range. You're also right that he said ancient, I don't know how I read that as 'Greater Wyrm'.
#13 philitar Oct 18, 2008 0:23:49	Natenate and InnaBinder thanks with this i should be able to give them a little wack. i will give you some news
#14 muertog Oct 18, 2008 0:32:12	Good luck. Give 'em hell, soldier! ^_^
#15 jameswilliamogle Oct 18, 2008 10:37:46	I like Simulacrum on my Dragons... Why just fight w/ one when you can fight w/ all?